'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games'

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article here.
https://www.the42.ie/south-africa-pro16-5451128-May2021/


Its from a SA point of view but there was also this line: There is hope that the Pro16 could double or treble its turnover in the next six or seven years.


More competition, tougher games, big name players and teams with big fan bases, a straight forward league instead of conferences, better refs (hopefully). Sounds good to me. If Benetton get up to speed it would boost Italian interest too.


I also heard that it won't be called the pro16. Its going to get a new name.

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:
So at the very least the Premiership also has a dominate Leinster style side (Saracens).

So you agree that your initial point was nonsense, but tried to save face by going back 11 years....... during which time the salary spends in rugby have grown enormously.

Well done.

Nice ducking on my post. Care to actually answer the post or do you just tear other people's comments down without providing any follow up of substance. Yes salary spends have gone up - so that contradicts yourself even more. So the gap between the have and have not's has only increased.

My initial point was that the Premiership has the same problems as the Pro14 in terms of have and have nots. So based on your response, you have nothing to counter my argument that the Premiership is also filled with sides who realistically will never really compete with others who simply outspend them. Unless you actually for once feel like contributing something positive to the conversation?

Welshmushroom wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:
So at the very least the Premiership also has a dominate Leinster style side (Saracens).

So you agree that your initial point was nonsense, but tried to save face by going back 11 years....... during which time the salary spends in rugby have grown enormously.

Well done.

Nice ducking on my post.  Care to actually answer the post or do you just tear other people's comments down without providing any follow up of substance.  Yes salary spends have gone up - so that contradicts yourself even more.  So the gap between the have and have not's has only increased.  

My initial point was that the Premiership has the same problems as the Pro14 in terms of have and have nots.  So based on your response, you have nothing to counter my argument that the Premiership is also filled with sides who realistically will never really compete with others who simply outspend them.  Unless you actually for once feel like contributing something positive to the conversation?

I've not ducked your post at all. I took from it the key point, in which you agreed with me.

Your initial point is utterly ludicrous as all of the clubs spend to the salary cap, or as near as damn it. So they, by definition, don't have the same problem of "have and have nots".

I can't believe that you're unaware of such basic issues that undermine your point.

Even Worcester spend to the cap: https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/all/domestic-club-rugby-union/english-premiership/329280/worcester-co-owner-our-budget-is-on-the-7m-salary-cap-limit/

So the actual facts (which, apologies, I gave you some credence for knowing. I was wrong to do so as it's clear that you know nothing) disprove your claim.

The all knowing Phill.

We all bow to your in-depth knowledge of all to do with professional rugby.

Old Man wrote:The all knowing Phill.

We all bow to your in-depth knowledge of all to do with professional rugby.

There you go again, playing the man. As noted above, it only reflects on you.

Let's paraphrase the last few interactions:

Poster: I think A, B and C
Me: that's not right, because of D, E and F
Poster: you're writing rubbish. I know I'm right
Me: here's the evidence of D, E and F that completely disproved A, B and C
Poster: yeah, but, you, erm, you know it all negative Nelly
Me: nah, just facts mate.

Welshmushroom wrote:

How are you going to try to wriggle out of "haves and have nots" when all spend to the salary cap?

This'll be a fun watch......

I really couldn't care less Phil what you think....

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

How are you going to try to wriggle out of "haves and have nots" when all spend to the salary cap?

This'll be a fun watch......

What are the total spends of all the clubs currently? How much does that differ?

Welshmushroom wrote:I really couldn't care less Phil what you think....

You don't seem to care less about facts, either. Or admitting your opinion flies in the face of facts.

Hey ho.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

How are you going to try to wriggle out of "haves and have nots" when all spend to the salary cap?

This'll be a fun watch......

What are the total spends of all the clubs currently? How much does that differ?

Google it. I've given you the spend of the bottom club.

Can't find them. Can't see where you've put Worcesters total spend either. Fair enough if you don't know.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't find them. Can't see where you've put Worcesters total spend either. Fair enough if you don't know.

You can't see the link I provided? That explains a lot.

Currently I would imagine they have dropped to 5 million (excluding the usual provisions which i posted below to show what they had last year)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/08/premiership-clubs-agree-to-reduce-salary-cap-from-2021

Now there was a thing where anyone signed up before a set period would be excluded and I think some clubs did that to avoid their spends going down to much.

Last years provision details:-
For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits not overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

Welshmushroom wrote:Currently I would imagine they have dropped to 5 million (excluding the usual provisions which i posted below to show what they had last year)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/08/premiership-clubs-agree-to-reduce-salary-cap-from-2021

Now there was a thing where anyone signed up before a set period would be excluded and I think some clubs did that to avoid their spends going down to much.  

Last years provision details:-
For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits not overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

So now you can see how a salary cap prevents 'the haves and have nots' that you previously wrote about? So, therefore, it's not an analogous comparison with Leinster outspending the rest of the league to ensure victory?

Good.

I can see the link Phil. I was wondering if you had the full spend rather than a quote on the cap. Like I said no problem if you don't.

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Currently I would imagine they have dropped to 5 million (excluding the usual provisions which i posted below to show what they had last year)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/08/premiership-clubs-agree-to-reduce-salary-cap-from-2021

Now there was a thing where anyone signed up before a set period would be excluded and I think some clubs did that to avoid their spends going down to much.  

Last years provision details:-
For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits not overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

So now you can see how a salary cap prevents 'the haves and have nots' that you previously wrote about? So, therefore, it's not an analogous comparison with Leinster outspending the rest of the league to ensure victory?

Good.

Your assumption of course being that everyone is spending the cap. By the way some club coach saying we're spending to the cap doesn't actually prove anything. Even Media outlets can't currently work out what clubs are spending. Unless the clubs actually publish their full P&L Accounts there is no way of knowing for sure.

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Currently I would imagine they have dropped to 5 million (excluding the usual provisions which i posted below to show what they had last year)

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jun/08/premiership-clubs-agree-to-reduce-salary-cap-from-2021

Now there was a thing where anyone signed up before a set period would be excluded and I think some clubs did that to avoid their spends going down to much.  

Last years provision details:-
For the 2020-21 Salary Cap Year, the level of the Salary Cap is £6,400,000 with the following credits and exclusions:

Home Grown Player Credits totalling £600,000 (up to £50,000 per player) – designed to incentivise clubs to retain home grown talent;
EPS/International Player Credits not overall limit but up to £80,000 per player – to cover player absence during international periods;
Injured Player Credits totalling £400,000 – to allow replacement players to cover for long term injuries;
Two Excluded Players – their entire salary is excluded from the salary cap;
Unlimited education fund for players.

So now you can see how a salary cap prevents 'the haves and have nots' that you previously wrote about? So, therefore, it's not an analogous comparison with Leinster outspending the rest of the league to ensure victory?

Good.

Read it again - I have marked the line which will show discrepancies as some clubs salary cap will differ from others based on them signing up players earlier. Therefore some clubs will continue to spend more than the 5 million other clubs will abide by based on a loophole.

So yes - some Premiership sides will be spending more to gain an advantage over rivals.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Your assumption of course being that everyone is spending the cap.  By the way some club coach saying we're spending to the cap doesn't actually prove anything.  Even Media outlets can't currently work out what clubs are spending.  Unless the clubs actually publish their full P&L Accounts there is no way of knowing for sure.

That final sentence......

Are you now claiming these clubs don't publish annual accounts?

And it wasn't "some club coach" for Worcester. It was their co-owner.

Welshmushroom wrote:

Read it again - I have marked the line which will show discrepancies as some clubs salary cap will differ from others based on them signing up players earlier.  Therefore some clubs will continue to spend more than the 5 million other clubs will abide by based on a loophole.

So yes - some Premiership sides will be spending more to gain an advantage over rivals.

The £5m isn't set, by your own post. It has credits and allowances etc.

But it's a cap. An agreed and audited cap.

There is no such thing in the PrO'URC, which is why there is the 'have and have nots'. There is no such 'have and have nots' in PRL, by definition.

Agreed?

Depends if everyone's total spend is the same surely?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Depends if everyone's total spend is the same surely?

Good God, really? That's a logical fallacy.

So even if several clubs outstanding Worcester on players it would still be a level playing field and not have and have not in your view?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So even if several clubs outstanding Worcester on players it would still be a level playing field and not have and have not in your view?

Worcester spend to the cap, therefore there's no basis in reality to your question.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what a cap is. Or you're just trying to be a deliberate contrarian and, God forbid, you'd do that in order to ruin a conversation.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So even if several clubs outstanding Worcester on players it would still be a level playing field and not have and have not in your view?

Worcester spend to the cap, therefore there's no basis in reality to your question.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what a cap is. Or you're just trying to be a deliberate contrarian and, God forbid, you'd do that in order to ruin a conversation.

Bit harsh Phil. I do try and keep up with the cap rules etc. Of course I'm talking about total spend and not the cap. So my point still stands.

Welshmushroom wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:To me the Pro14 is a credible league.  It's not like the Premiership or Top14 doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots.

You only have to look at Worcester and Agen.  Agen couldn't beat a local pub side to be honest.  They have been shocking.

And are Worcester really any better than say the Dragons, Zebre & Treviso.  I don't see it myself.  And they aren't alone in the Premiership either.  Some very average sides in the bottom half of that league.

In any case - stick to your league and let us Celts enjoy ours.  

You, with a straight face, wrote "doesn't have the same problem with have and have nots" when the same team wins it time after time because of its huge budget advantange?

That you referenced just the worst team in the league as some kind of indication of its quality is very telling.

It's really hard to take your seriously.  But just to drive my point home then as clearly your quite pedantic.

Past 10 Year Winners Compared....

Aviva Premiership from 2010 to 2021

Saracens (5)
Exeter (2)
Harlequins (2)
Northampton (1)
Leicester (1)

Pro14 from 2010 to 2021
Leinster (6)
Ospreys (1)
Munster (1)
Connacht (1)
Scarlets (1)
Glasgow (1)

Also worth noting that Saracens due to the salary cap scandal couldn't compete the last 2 league titles in the Premiership.  They probably were the best team in the league the season they got the point deduction and probably still are.

So at the very least the Premiership also has a dominate Leinster style side (Saracens).  But I would argue there have been a wider selection of winners on our side than in England.

Anyway I'm tired of kicking you into touch.  Go play with the kids in the park.

Rugby only started in 2019 according to some of our welsh friends on here. Sure there was another Welsh poster claiming that the regions had done nothing in Europe, when Cardiff only won the challenge cup in 2018 and the Scarlets had their run to the semis in the HC in the same year.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So even if several clubs outstanding Worcester on players it would still be a level playing field and not have and have not in your view?

Worcester spend to the cap, therefore there's no basis in reality to your question.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what a cap is. Or you're just trying to be a deliberate contrarian and, God forbid, you'd do that in order to ruin a conversation.

Bit harsh Phil. I do try and keep up with the cap rules etc. Of course I'm talking about total spend and not the cap. So my point still stands.

Every team in MLR spends to the cap. However the LA franchise is clearly outspending the rest of the league by some distance with the likes of AAC, Adam Ashe, Matt Giteau and Dave Dennis in the squad. There are always ways around salary caps, hence why the likes of Wuss a perennial relegation battlers.

PhilBB wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Read it again - I have marked the line which will show discrepancies as some clubs salary cap will differ from others based on them signing up players earlier.  Therefore some clubs will continue to spend more than the 5 million other clubs will abide by based on a loophole.

So yes - some Premiership sides will be spending more to gain an advantage over rivals.

The £5m isn't set, by your own post. It has credits and allowances etc.

But it's a cap. An agreed and audited cap.

There is no such thing in the PrO'URC, which is why there is the 'have and have nots'. There is no such 'have and have nots' in PRL, by definition.

Agreed?

Clearly I'm going to have to walk you through this like a baby.

My post clearly states that the 5 million salary cap has an active loophole. Most clubs didn't take this loophole up. So yes some clubs would be sticking to the 5 million cap plus provision.

Other however will exploit the loophole and continue to potentially spend up to 7 million (including provisions). They are using a loophole exception where some salaries will be excluded entirely based on when the renewed contract was signed. The argument from their side was that they couldn't just deflate their salaries based on prior commitments so would need a longer time period before they could actively get down to 5 million. The PRL agreed to this.

So basically one club next season might be spending up to 7 million +plus 2 marquees and another 5 million +plus 2 marquees. Clearly a 2 million spend difference on playing salaries. Is that clear enough?

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So even if several clubs outstanding Worcester on players it would still be a level playing field and not have and have not in your view?

Worcester spend to the cap, therefore there's no basis in reality to your question.

I'm beginning to think you don't know what a cap is. Or you're just trying to be a deliberate contrarian and, God forbid, you'd do that in order to ruin a conversation.

Based on the hear say of a coach which is circumstantial at best. Factually you haven't been able to prove this. There is no documentation currently available to prove this point. Unless you happen to be the Worcester Club Accountant and have access to the P&L accounts. Can you be 100% sure the coach didn't release this statement to ward of fans from turning on the club for not spending enough? I'm not stating they aren't by the way but my point is you haven't actually been able to prove any of this.

BBC Wales wouldn't shown the PrO'URC without Welsh teams, so we have our first broadcaster.
So have BBC Wales got the budget to buy the rights to the Championship from the RFU and televise all the games, including the ones played in England. And if the games are on the BBC won't that affect attendances at the grounds, which is a point you made earlier?

Attendance for meaningless PrO'Drivel games is elastic. The product is of little interest. The reverse is true for Anglo-Welsh competitive games.
I didn't mention Pro14 games, I specifically mentioned European games when Welsh and English clubs are drawn against each other - is there any evidence that the crowds at the games greatly increase - as in something that can't be explained by travelling fans of the English team, or that large numbers of Welsh fans make the trip for the leg in England?

Why mention Richmond? Is it to be clever?
Richmond are a Championship club - so questioning who would want to watch Scarlets against Richmond seems a valid question as does which TV company is going to pay money to televise it?

There's no evidence the English want the Welsh. That, of course, is irrelevant to my point. A point it seems that I'm going to have to repeat as it gets lost within the woeful attempts at sarcasm:

For Welsh rugby, there's no positive future in the URC. And I mean that for both meanings of URC. The goal for the four Welsh clubs should be to be part of the English system and, I believe, at least three of them have publicly recognised this. Now, that doesn't mean that I think it is going to happen. That doesn't mean that I think PRL or CVC want it to happen. It just means that's what I believe is the best route forward for Welsh rugby.

So your "solution" for the problems that you see with Welsh rugby is not actually a viable solution because no one who's actually involved in the game wants it to happen?
Isn't this a bit like saying the solution to the problems in my love life is for Scarlett Johannsen to fall madly in love with me and take me with her to share a life of glamour in Beverly Hills?
[/quote]

PhilBB wrote:

Brendan wrote:Phil how do you figure a 20 professional setup to two divisions between English and Welsh teams is more valuable than what England had and has basically admitted it failed by them trying to ringfence like the URC to increase revenue.

If the English Championship has been deemed not financial viable how would and Anglo Welsh league suddenly increase the revenue enough to support the 6 extra team.

The ring fencing is driven by CVC with PRL happy to keep all of the money to themselves.

Your second sentence has been answered time after time: by having a proper broadcast contract.

Ringfencing was not driven by CVC as it has been brought up loads by the PRL before they even had CVC on board.  The only reason it is happening now is because the RFU couldnt afford the half million they were giving the Championship teams each and with the reduced funding everyone recognises that the Championship is no longer viable as a credible 2nd teir just below the Premership hence the ringfencing effectively turning the Championship into the top armature level.

Not sure how the TV thing hasn't already been tried., fairly sure people following the Championship would be much smaller than what the 4 Welsh teams would bring.  URC on BBC Wales isn't good enough for some how will it being on BT be better.  Also we have seen in Europe that the top division gets loads of coverage and the second one gets the results called out with a final.  Also if Wales did join this Anglo Welsh league the league would get 8 places for the Champions Cup while the new 12 team URC would also get 8.  Why would the WRU allow 1-3 of their 4 professional teams to end up in the second division with no access to Europe. URC income looks like it will provide plenty for the 4 Welsh. Not sure how taking a cut from a smaller pie would produce more.

Bath are one of the highest paid squads in the Premership yet they finished 8th in the Premership. Player wages has nothing to do with the haves and have not on the field. Johnny May is on considerable more than LRZ but which is more valuable on the field.

In the last two years Ospreys and Benetton have finished bottom of the 12 European teams. I guess those years they spent less. This year the story will go down in folklore as will the BBQ scene in Treviso when Crowley burns the play books and tells them forget the league and start anew.

As Wales and Ireland have shown in the 6 Nations it's not about money it's about the team, the culture, the mentality.

Why some one would want to walk away from a good deal to a worse deal that would result in 1-2 of the 4 teams at best never qiuailifying for Europe again is beyond me. Just when the teams are playing in a league that is no longer the burden it was to the Uions they want to jump to a ship that couldn't increase their TV revenue when the other two leagues did and who has cut the wages of their squads when their competitors are looking at more income. It reminds be of the Capital of Sweden. The Welsh are a proud nation of 4 teams that are about to have the money to do it.

Brendan wrote:Bath are one of the highest paid squads in the Premership yet they finished 8th in the Premership. Player wages has nothing to do with the haves and have not on the field.  Johnny May is on considerable more than LRZ but which is more valuable on the field.

In the last two years Ospreys and Benetton have finished bottom of the 12 European teams.  I guess those years they spent less. This year the story will go down in folklore as will the BBQ scene in Treviso when Crowley burns the play books and tells them forget the league and start anew.

As Wales and Ireland have shown in the 6 Nations it's not about money it's about the team, the culture, the mentality.  

Why some one would want to walk away from a good deal to a worse deal that would result in 1-2 of the 4 teams at best never qiuailifying for Europe again is beyond me.  Just when the teams are playing in a league that is no longer the burden it was to the Uions they want to jump to a ship that couldn't increase their TV revenue when the other two leagues did and who has cut the wages of their squads when their competitors are looking at more income.  It reminds be of the Capital of Sweden.  The Welsh are a proud nation of 4 teams that are about to  have the money to do it.

Why talk about Bath, then switch to Glaws in the same para?

You can’t compare how Wales and Ireland do at internationals, as budgets do matter. I guess you accept Ireland fail more otherwise? Awful culture otherwise. WC QF, at best?

How do you think the Welsh teams are about to have the money “to do it”?

I think there is an assumption that an increase in money from the league/tv deal translates to an increase in money for he Welsh regions. It should, of course. 10 million more for the Welsh should mean 2.5 million more for each region. However, it doesn’t work that way in Wales. The money doesn’t go directly to the regions. It goes to the WRU who decide how much to give the regions. They’ve recently announced the next 2 years of funding and while it’s gone up compared to the last few years the regions have also been forced to take out a £20 million loan between then for the next 5 years to cover the reduction in funding from the WRU of £20 something million to just £5million this year (due to Covid). So by the time they pay that back each year I’m not sure their funding will actually increase over the next 2 years. But at least they’ll know how much they have to work with. Previously it has always been on a year by year basis which makes it much more difficult to plan.

RiscaGame wrote:

Brendan wrote:Bath are one of the highest paid squads in the Premership yet they finished 8th in the Premership. Player wages has nothing to do with the haves and have not on the field.  Johnny May is on considerable more than LRZ but which is more valuable on the field.

In the last two years Ospreys and Benetton have finished bottom of the 12 European teams.  I guess those years they spent less. This year the story will go down in folklore as will the BBQ scene in Treviso when Crowley burns the play books and tells them forget the league and start anew.

As Wales and Ireland have shown in the 6 Nations it's not about money it's about the team, the culture, the mentality.  

Why some one would want to walk away from a good deal to a worse deal that would result in 1-2 of the 4 teams at best never qiuailifying for Europe again is beyond me.  Just when the teams are playing in a league that is no longer the burden it was to the Uions they want to jump to a ship that couldn't increase their TV revenue when the other two leagues did and who has cut the wages of their squads when their competitors are looking at more income.  It reminds be of the Capital of Sweden.  The Welsh are a proud nation of 4 teams that are about to  have the money to do it.

Why talk about Bath, then switch to Glaws in the same para?

You can’t compare how Wales and Ireland do at internationals, as budgets do matter. I guess you accept Ireland fail more otherwise? Awful culture otherwise. WC QF, at best?

How do you think the Welsh teams are about to have the money “to do it”?

I used Bath because many view them as a team that is less then the some of their parts. I used Glaws players as I can't think of two people at the one Club of Simillar value on the field but such a big difference in what the club is paying. I though it would be ok do it.

At international Wales has a much better mindset and culture compared to Ireland. For some reason Ireland can't get out of their own heads at WC time especially in quarters when they fall apart. Take 2015, they fall behind, catch back up, suddenly realise they are in with a shout and collapse. So yes Ireland does not have the right stuff at international. Munster too have been underachieving for years. Take this year's Rainbow Cup where they did all the hard work then lost to Connacht, Benetton on the other hand ended a 6 game losing run against the same Connacht to make the final.

URC TV money is going from 30 to 55 million. Where else will the money go. Add in the reduction in Salary Cap the current Welsh spend will go further as the English Cap basically deflates wages there.

The Oracle wrote:I think there is an assumption that an increase in money from the league/tv deal translates to an increase in money for he Welsh regions. It should, of course. 10 million more for the Welsh should mean 2.5 million more for each region. However, it doesn’t work that way in Wales. The money doesn’t go directly to the regions. It goes to the WRU who decide how much to give the regions. They’ve recently announced the next 2 years of funding and while it’s gone up compared to the last few years the regions have also been forced to take out a £20 million loan between then for the next 5 years to cover the reduction in funding from the WRU of £20 something million to just £5million this year (due to Covid). So by the time they pay that back each year I’m not sure their funding will actually increase over the next 2 years. But at least they’ll know how much they have to work with. Previously it has always been on a year by year basis which makes it much more difficult to plan.

That does complicate things. Surely though the sponsership will.go up

Also it seems that the Welsh have the worst of both worlds.  Their Union doesn't give as much per team as the Irish (and possibly Scots) and the private owners don't seem to want to make up the difference the way a Worcester does.

To go back to Phil's dream I don't know how the PRL would feel about the sums being poured in per team by the WRU compared to RFU.

Do we know if the 5m per team includes the 38 players who the WRU pay 80% of their wages.  I know the Scarlets Boss around the time of the Sale game put that at a large chunk of their wage bill.

Brendan wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Brendan wrote:Bath are one of the highest paid squads in the Premership yet they finished 8th in the Premership. Player wages has nothing to do with the haves and have not on the field.  Johnny May is on considerable more than LRZ but which is more valuable on the field.

In the last two years Ospreys and Benetton have finished bottom of the 12 European teams.  I guess those years they spent less. This year the story will go down in folklore as will the BBQ scene in Treviso when Crowley burns the play books and tells them forget the league and start anew.

As Wales and Ireland have shown in the 6 Nations it's not about money it's about the team, the culture, the mentality.  

Why some one would want to walk away from a good deal to a worse deal that would result in 1-2 of the 4 teams at best never qiuailifying for Europe again is beyond me.  Just when the teams are playing in a league that is no longer the burden it was to the Uions they want to jump to a ship that couldn't increase their TV revenue when the other two leagues did and who has cut the wages of their squads when their competitors are looking at more income.  It reminds be of the Capital of Sweden.  The Welsh are a proud nation of 4 teams that are about to  have the money to do it.

Why talk about Bath, then switch to Glaws in the same para?

You can’t compare how Wales and Ireland do at internationals, as budgets do matter. I guess you accept Ireland fail more otherwise? Awful culture otherwise. WC QF, at best?

How do you think the Welsh teams are about to have the money “to do it”?

I used Bath because many view them as a team that is less then the some of their parts.  I used Glaws players as I can't think of two people at the one Club of Simillar value on the field  but such a big difference in what the club is paying.  I though it would be ok do it.

At international Wales has a much better mindset and culture compared to Ireland.  For some reason Ireland can't get out of their own heads at WC time especially in quarters when they fall apart.  Take 2015, they fall behind, catch back up, suddenly realise they are in with a shout and collapse.  So yes Ireland does not have the right stuff at international.  Munster too have been underachieving for years.  Take this year's Rainbow Cup where they did all the hard work then lost to Connacht, Benetton on the other hand ended a 6 game losing run against the same Connacht to make the final.

URC TV money is going from 30 to 55 million.  Where else will the money go.  Add in the reduction in Salary Cap the current Welsh spend will go further as the English Cap basically deflates wages there.

Fair enough. Was just unsure about the switch, that’s all.

The extra money will go into another project probably. Like a brewery/hotel etc.

Irish Londoner wrote:Attendance for meaningless PrO'Drivel games is elastic. The product is of little interest. The reverse is true for Anglo-Welsh competitive games.
I didn't mention Pro14 games, I specifically mentioned European games when Welsh and English clubs are drawn against each other - is there any evidence that the crowds at the games greatly increase - as in something that can't be explained by travelling fans of the English team, or that large numbers of Welsh fans make the trip for the leg in England?

Look, I'm no apologist for the regions on here, just ask my fellow Welsh members, but when the English clubs come over for the CC then the crowds do generally increase.

Also, lets not take out the power of a local derby, or a game where away fans can make a difference, I'm not saying it would happen with teams like Newcastle, but there would be a lot of away fans from the border sides coming to Wales to watch their teams, and the Welsh fans would travel, lets not underestimate how financially beneficial that would be.

It's not affordable for the average fan to travel to Scotland, Italy, Ireland and vice versa, so then you really are relying on the home fans to turn up, but in Wales, the regions have so much competition from local and village sides you would be lucky to see 10,000 people rock up every week.

Wales have the most registered clubs in the league, with the least population, let that sink in for a few minutes before people have a go at the Welsh regional attendances. Although I think SA will now have the most registered sides, but they have 200 times the population.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Attendance for meaningless PrO'Drivel games is elastic. The product is of little interest. The reverse is true for Anglo-Welsh competitive games.
I didn't mention Pro14 games, I specifically mentioned European games when Welsh and English clubs are drawn against each other - is there any evidence that the crowds at the games greatly increase - as in something that can't be explained by travelling fans of the English team, or that large numbers of Welsh fans make the trip for the leg in England?

Look, I'm no apologist for the regions on here, just ask my fellow Welsh members, but when the English clubs come over for the CC then the crowds do generally increase.

Also, lets not take out the power of a local derby, or a game where away fans can make a difference, I'm not saying it would happen with teams like Newcastle, but there would be a lot of away fans from the border sides coming to Wales to watch their teams, and the Welsh fans would travel, lets not underestimate how financially beneficial that would be.

It's not affordable for the average fan to travel to Scotland, Italy, Ireland and vice versa, so then you really are relying on the home fans to turn up, but in Wales, the regions have so much competition from local and village sides you would be lucky to see 10,000 people rock up every week.

Wales have the most registered clubs in the league, with the least population, let that sink in for a few minutes before people have a go at the Welsh regional attendances. Although I think SA will now have the most registered sides, but they have 200 times the population.

I understand the travel issues as they are the same for the fans from the other nations - my question is whether the increase in fans at these games can be attributed to English fans coming to Wales for a day/weekend out or to an increase in interest by Welsh fans who want to see their team play an English team? If it's about the quality of the rugby do attendances increase when one of the French big teams - Toulon, Stade, etc. come to Wales?

I do actually think it would be better for the Welsh clubs if they were in the same league as the English ones - I'm very much in favour of a two or ever three division B & I league - unfortunately I don't see the English clubs showing any enthusiasim for it and the only way I see that changing is if CVC are able to put pressure on them to do so, with the carrot of a much larger TV deal as the bait.

I just can't cope with the continual negativity about the system as it stands and with no suggestions to improve it other than "pie in the sky" ideas that won't fly with the national RFUs - especially the English one or alternatively that Ireland has to restructure it's whole system from the grassroots upwards as a few people in Wales don't like it, given that these are the same people who don't like the current Welsh set up either.

Irish Londoner wrote:I understand the travel issues as they are the same for the fans from the other nations - my question is whether the increase in fans at these games can be attributed to English fans coming to Wales for a day/weekend out or to an increase in interest by Welsh fans who want to see their team play an English team? If it's about the quality of the rugby do attendances increase when one of the French big teams - Toulon, Stade, etc. come to Wales?

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. There is definitely a bit more spice to an English fixture than there is for an Irish, Scottish or Italian fixture, this is due to the times of the old merit system back in the day. At the end of the day, although a lot might not remember, there is more history between Welsh and English club rugby than there is with any of the other nations.

Irish Londoner wrote:I just can't cope with the continual negativity about the system as it stands and with no suggestions to improve it other than "pie in the sky" ideas that won't fly with the national RFUs - especially the English one or alternatively that Ireland has to restructure it's whole system from the grassroots upwards as a few people in Wales don't like it, given that these are the same people who don't like the current Welsh set up either.

You are not being very fair here, you really are not, nobody has said they want Ireland to restructure their whole system, I think this is bit of victim mentality here, and in Wales, I think that the grass route game is being neglected to appease the regions.

Are these ideas pie in the sky ? I don't think they are, as they are being discussed further afield than just V2. Do I think it will happen ? Not an Anglo/Welsh league, but a B&I league is more realistic, and for that to happen, there will have to be changes to the way domestic rugby is run in certain countries, whether that be Ireland, Wales or England remains a debate to be had.

For me, the URC has some serious issues it needs to deal with first and foremost, but a good league can emerge from it. More neutral refs and a salary cap would be a good start for me, then go from there.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:I understand the travel issues as they are the same for the fans from the other nations - my question is whether the increase in fans at these games can be attributed to English fans coming to Wales for a day/weekend out or to an increase in interest by Welsh fans who want to see their team play an English team? If it's about the quality of the rugby do attendances increase when one of the French big teams - Toulon, Stade, etc. come to Wales?

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. There is definitely a bit more spice to an English fixture than there is for an Irish, Scottish or Italian fixture, this is due to the times of the old merit system back in the day. At the end of the day, although a lot might not remember, there is more history between Welsh and English club rugby than there is with any of the other nations.

Irish Londoner wrote:I just can't cope with the continual negativity about the system as it stands and with no suggestions to improve it other than "pie in the sky" ideas that won't fly with the national RFUs - especially the English one or alternatively that Ireland has to restructure it's whole system from the grassroots upwards as a few people in Wales don't like it, given that these are the same people who don't like the current Welsh set up either.

You are not being very fair here, you really are not, nobody has said they want Ireland to restructure their whole system, I think this is bit of victim mentality here, and in Wales, I think that the grass route game is being neglected to appease the regions.

Are these ideas pie in the sky ? I don't think they are, as they are being discussed further afield than just V2. Do I think it will happen ? Not an Anglo/Welsh league, but a B&I league is more realistic, and for that to happen, there will have to be changes to the way domestic rugby is run in certain countries, whether that be Ireland, Wales or England remains a debate to be had.

For me, the URC has some serious issues it needs to deal with first and foremost, but a good league can emerge from it. More neutral refs and a salary cap would be a good start for me, then go from there.

I agree with you that historically there's an Anglo-Welsh rivalry more so than with the other clubs, but the same would apply to English clubs touring Scotland or Ireland, if would get more "bums on seats" that would be an improvement obviously - but as you say I agree it's more likely in the context of a B & I league rather than an AW one.

Re the Ireland situation, I appreciate that it's "not all Welsh fans" but with things like the "PrO'14" etc. it does get wearing.....

I also agree that in the event of any B & I league there would have to be changes to the structure of rugby across the board - which all the unions and clubs would have to be on board with - there might need to be some sort of "B & I RFU" overseeing the whole thing and balancing the competition with international game, in terms of player access, player development at club and country and the connection with the home RFUs and the grassroots game - I think it would be a sad day if the B & I league ended up as some sort of "Super League" where it was all about money and "devil take the hindmost" even if it would suit at least one Irish province.

I think with the SA teams on board, there will be a wider refereeing pool to pick from and hopefully this will happen in combination with domestic referee development so that more referees of a good standard are coming from Wales, Ireland and Scotland as well. The salary cap way be a harder one to standardise with the way different clubs are financed - maybe the ERC need to look at this as a cross European measure - the clubs from B & I that are spending big are mainly doing it to compete in Europe with the French clubs.

I don't think we're that far apart on a lot of this....

Irish Londoner wrote:I think with the SA teams on board, there will be a wider refereeing pool to pick from and hopefully this will happen in combination with domestic referee development so that more referees of a good standard are coming from Wales, Ireland and Scotland as well.

For me, I reckon the South African refs will just ref games in South Africa, and we will be stuck with all the same ones we have now, Scotland and Italy really do need to pull their fingers out in that respect. But it's the standard as well, just look on the England V USA thread, Andrew Brace is taking a right kicking, and to be fair, they are all right in what they are saying about him, the scary thing is, he is not the worst in the league.

Irish Londoner wrote:The salary cap way be a harder one to standardise with the way different clubs are financed - maybe the ERC need to look at this as a cross European measure - the clubs from B & I that are spending big are mainly doing it to compete in Europe with the French clubs.

I think that is where it will fall down, I think the Irish teams will be reluctant to go with it.

I think it rather depends on how the cap is worked out - there would have to some fairly strict rules and monitoring around the edges as much as anything else. Both the Irish and English clubs will be reluctant to drop the cap very far if the French can keep increasing theirs.

The refereeing issue needs looking at across the board we have good refs in all the leagues, just not enough of them - but that seems to be a complaint across the worldwide game.

Just a point about the negativity. On these boards I’ve seen negativity of some sort over the years from fans of ALL nations involved in the league. Varying degrees of negativity, but still negativity towards elements of the league. The real intense negativity though, while usually being from Welsh posters, let’s not forget that it’s from about 5 posters maximum. 5 posters from a population of 3 million. It’s just that the negativity is often repeated by the same small number of people over and over so that, eventually, it seems like a maelstrom. There’s usually some valid basis to their grumbles but it gets lost in the name calling and bickering and turns into an ‘us vs them’ bun fight!

The Oracle wrote:Just a point about the negativity. On these boards I’ve seen negativity of some sort over the years from fans of ALL nations involved in the league. Varying degrees of negativity, but still negativity towards elements of the league. The real intense negativity though, while usually being from Welsh posters, let’s not forget that it’s from about 5 posters maximum. 5 posters from a population of 3 million. It’s just that the negativity is often repeated by the same small number of people over and over so that, eventually, it seems like a maelstrom. There’s usually some valid basis to their grumbles but it gets lost in the name calling and bickering and turns into an ‘us vs them’ bun fight!

It's not just the place though, it's everywhere, and it's not just the Welsh fans. Go on some of the Scottish rugby forums, there is not much love for the league there, also, the Irish forums has it's fair share of detractors.

I was speaking to a fan a few years back, in Paris, he is from Dublin, and he was moaning because he reckoned the Pro14 at the time was not competitive enough and left the Irish players undercooked when it came to Europe and internationals.

Irish Londoner wrote:I think it rather depends on how the cap is worked out - there would have to some fairly strict rules and monitoring around the edges as much as anything else. Both the Irish and English clubs will be reluctant to drop the cap very far if the French can keep increasing theirs.

I think it's fair to say that two of the Irish provinces massively benefit from the Irish set-up, and two of the Irish provinces are hamstrung by the current Irish set-up, would you agree ?

It makes no difference to me, but perhaps if there was a cap, then it would be fairer.

I don't see how the URC can turn into a B&I unless the number of professional teams in England continues to reduce. Why would CVC do a B&I league and cut off SA and Italy. There is also no way the URC nations would sign up to a league where they each have 4 teams or less and the Union joining has 14, why would Ireland sign up to a B&I league that gives them two top teams when the URC gives them 4 and about the same money.

CVC in F1 chased new money not trying to get more money out of the same stone. We will see what the URC T2 comes up with but CVC would feel with their F1 experience they can get people like all the Russian sponsers on board (unlike the new Euro competitions which failed miserably). Look where CVC put all their new races. I can't see CVC doing a B&I league and losing all that other money.

With the TT going from bad to worse in terms of future viability it wouldn't surprise be if CVC looked to fund an eastern champions cup with Japan, Russia and inbetween to cut off Silver Lake from getting Japan. Even a cup between the Russian, Japanese and MLR would sell well as there is alot of history between them and they all have professional leagues.

Russia is still looking to get the WC so whoever gets them on board will be rewarded. If the Russian league were given Euro Cup places then sponsership would go up a fair bit. If the 6N & Japan back Russia for the WC it would be hard to beat them as the smaller Nations will back who promises the most just like with France.

Frankly, I think a B&I league, including all comers like SA, is coming. Not today or tomorrow, but I think it is coming. Just like the proverbial train coming down the track.

There would be absolutely no need for every team in the league to play each other every year. The NFL operates this way and the Super Bowl is one of the biggest events, and one of the biggest global tv events every year. OK, it might bring some complaints about easier or tougher schedules, but in the NFL no one really cares. Some regional rivalries, then an unbalanced schedule. It will take a sea change to really grow Rugby and this might do it. Obviously, no one is ready for this now and soonest is 5 or 10 years. So plenty of time to get your protests ready.....

All those Superb Owl parties...

doctor_grey wrote:Frankly, I think a B&I league, including all comers like SA, is coming.  Not today or tomorrow, but I think it is coming.  Just like the proverbial train coming down the track.  

There would be absolutely no need for every team in the league to play each other every year.  The NFL operates this way and the Super Bowl is one of the biggest events, and one of the biggest global tv events every year.  OK, it might bring some complaints about easier or tougher schedules, but in the NFL no one really cares.  Some regional rivalries, then an unbalanced schedule.  It will take a sea change to really grow Rugby and this might do it.  Obviously, no one is ready for this now and soonest is 5 or 10 years.   So plenty of time to get your protests ready.....

Again why would SARU, IRFU,  SRU, WRU & FIR with 16 teams sign up to something that brings in 14 teams and effectively hands over control.  I can't imagine SARU signing up for it.  Would the league for everyone  bring in £110+m per year.  Even with that money they would fall more behind the French when it came per team fees.

It doesn't make commercial sense to put the two leagues into one for CVC.  Effectively you would have two professional leagues in Europe and CVC would only have a share in one.  I would be fairly sure that joining the two leagues would make the T14 richer rather than the URC and Prem stronger.  Plus when it came to cups with the T14 or World Club would the 6 Unions accept the same number as the T14 or TT.

Unless the T14 sign up or Prem collapses financially can't see the PRL giving up and jumping in and admitting they can't stand independent.