'better for everyone. The SA teams will mean bigger, tougher games'

First topic message reminder :

Interesting article here.
https://www.the42.ie/south-africa-pro16-5451128-May2021/


Its from a SA point of view but there was also this line: There is hope that the Pro16 could double or treble its turnover in the next six or seven years.


More competition, tougher games, big name players and teams with big fan bases, a straight forward league instead of conferences, better refs (hopefully). Sounds good to me. If Benetton get up to speed it would boost Italian interest too.


I also heard that it won't be called the pro16. Its going to get a new name.

This must be a parody account.

So 51% plus 17% plus 7% want to be with the Irish, so 75% in total.

72% still believe in Santa.

I guess you don't consider the number of Pro12 teams that have made the Champions Cups quarters in the last 5 years v the Premership compared to 10 years ago not proof that the league is improving the teams.

The three Celtic Leagues national teams have all improved.  Is that not important.  The Unions have increased their income and spend on grassroots rugby. This would not have happened without the Pro14.

Munster have consistently been one of the best teams in Europe.  They pushed the eventual champions close this year.  Have made a fair few semis in the last 10 years.  Ulster have consistently been a top 10 Euro team.

If you do well in the league you do well in Europe.  Ask Glasgow if it wasn't for Sarries they could have made a semi.  Scarlets improved in the league leading to them winning it and on to a Euro Semi.  Edinburgh improve in the league leading to a top spot in a Euro group and an unlucky loss to Munster in the quarters.

If the league wasn't working then league performance would have no baring on euro performance. It clearly does which says the league works fine.  If the SA teams finish in the top 6 of the league then they can expect to be as good as the teams in the Champions Cup.  If they top the league they will be one of the favourites to win the Champions Cup.

please read this article

How many more talent is running around SA?

Old Man wrote:please read this article

How many more talent is running around SA?

That's a great article. Wonderful young man by the looks of it. Tough upbringing, a family who must be open and caring people, and he seems well grounded for life. And if he can excel in Rugby, so much the better. Thanks for sharing, really inspirational.

And, yes, I suppose he can't be the only one.

Apparently a new name for the league has been chosen and will be announced in the next few weeks.

Meridian Cup

Some of the Irish members on here can be so disingenuous towards the Welsh members on here with regards to the Pro14, sometimes, can you just take somebody else's point of view on board ?

The Pro14 is struggling in Wales at the moment, but please just remember at least half of the rugby supporting population in Wales do not support the 4 regions. But what they would do is watch them on the tele, because they support rugby. This is not happening now, not since it was put on PS. The only people who would pay extra to watch it are the hard core fans of the regions, and if numbers are to be believed that is about 10,000 people who have subscribed. Which is about a 5th of the amount of people who were watching it on free to air.

Yes, there are some fans who really hate it, but I bet it's the same for all countries involved. Ask the fans up in Scotland who support the border based teams, ask them how they feel about the Pro14. Just to let people know, outside of this place a lot of Irish rugby supporters are up in arms because Benneton are in the final, they are making out that it should be an Irish team, as they are better blah, blah, blah....

Just because people point out the flaws in the league, they should not have to put up with all the animosity on here, from both the Irish fans, and the Welsh fans who are staunch supporters of the league. We have spoken at length over and over about the issues.

The South African fans will soon find out as well, and whilst we are at it, regarding the South Africans, anybody hoping that having their refs in the league will improve things, do you honestly think the league will pay to fly and accommodate the South African refs to and in the UK, Italy and Ireland ? I hope they will, but I can see the South African refs only refereeing games in South Africa, and all the the NH based refs reffing games in the in the NH.

We do not have to always try to win the internet.

"A recent poll on a Welsh national news site: https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-fans-want-british-20481564
"What league tournament should the pro teams compete in ideally?
British & Irish League - 51%
Anglo-Welsh League - 21%
PRO16 (with four South African sides) - 17%
PRO12 - 7%
Something else - 4%"

The funny thing is that - a B & I league - is pretty much what everyone would like to see - the Irish in particular, loads of tourists from the English clubs in Dublin and Belfast, big games against the top English teams, and a reasonable likelihood that we'd have at least two teams more likely three teams in the top division of it. London Irish would also be laughing all the way to the bank with games against the provinces on a regular basis.

Bring it on.

Irish Londoner wrote:The funny thing is that - a B & I league - is pretty much what everyone would like to see - the Irish in particular, loads of tourists from the English clubs in Dublin and Belfast, big games against the top English teams, and a reasonable likelihood that we'd have at least two teams more likely three teams in the top division of it. London Irish would also be laughing all the way to the bank with games against the provinces on a regular basis.

I do not want to burst your bubble, but I do not think the IRFU want a B&I league.

There is a neurological explanation as to why some people end up being so negative. It has to do with the part of the brain called the amygdala, which functions as an alarm and is constantly on the look out for danger, fear and bad news. Scientists believe this to be the brain’s default position. In evolutionary terms, this is understandable; it is all part of the fear-flight mechanism in which the brain uses most of its neurons to keep up with all the bad news that is stored in the memory.

Negative people rarely envisage a happy outcome or great result.
Those who are negative are likely to be over sensitive to criticism, they interpret innocent remarks as being condescending or rude.
Negative people tend to whine a lot, convinced that the whole world is against them. They are usually the victim of lousy weather, a difficult boss, bad luck etc.

The Welsh regions might not be the perfect answer to top flight Welsh rugby for some but it's the current reality without much chance of there being any alternative any time soon. Perhaps if people would try to see the positives, the improvements and have a little optimism for what's to come there would be a little more support for what you have instead of always reaching for what you want. I know we have retained the Provincial sides in Ireland so choosing your side is relatively simple. If the Pro12 had dreamt up some new regions in Ireland, I still would have gotten behind whatever one I chose or was born into. As it stands I want Ulster to be a dominant force in Europe with all the help they can get, any assistance at all. I'd like to see a raft of changes in the Irish setup to level the playing field, at least in my perception, with the rest of Europe. I'd like that for all sides in the competition for that matter.

Those things are not about to happen any time soon so I'll just get behind my team and give them whatever support I can and take the highs and lows with a large beer.

Pete330v2 wrote:Perhaps if people would try to see the positives, the improvements and have a little optimism for what's to come there would be a little more support for what you have instead of always reaching for what you want.

Thats great, can you please tell us the positives ? Can you please tell us the improvements ?

Pete330v2 wrote:I know we have retained the Provincial sides in Ireland so choosing your side is relatively simple. If the Pro12 had dreamt up some new regions in Ireland, I still would have gotten behind whatever one I chose or was born into.

What do you mean "born into" ? I was born in Merthyr Tydfil, but I am told my region is Cardiff, when in fact they are not even a region anymore. They are just a means to an end for players to try and get a pro contract.

So you would just stop supporting Ulster and get behind a team playing out of Dublin if say your new region was East Ireland ?

Pete330v2 wrote:Those things are not about to happen any time soon so I'll just get behind my team and give them whatever support I can and take the highs and lows with a large beer.

I do this, whilst supporting Merthyr Tydfil in the Welsh Premiership.

LD if you cannot see the improvements in the Welsh regions and in the last 6 nations, the national side then you're blinding yourself to them. The regions have improved this season, with Cardiff and Scarlets in particular looking like they could be in rude health going forward.


"So you would just stop supporting Ulster and get behind a team playing out of Dublin if say your new region was East Ireland" ?

Yes, if the provinces were realigned what choice would I have?
I was born in Ulster so support Ulster, that makes it very easy for me and I can't say I wouldn't be annoyed if the Pro16 decided to realign the provinces and create, say, 2 super provinces. East v's west or something like that. I would however have to suck it up and jump on board through a lack of alternatives.

Pete330v2 wrote:LD if you cannot see the improvements in the Welsh regions and in the last 6 nations, the national side then you're blinding yourself to them. The regions have improved this season, with Cardiff and Scarlets in particular looking like they could be in rude health going forward.

You never said anything about the teams, you mentioned improvements and positives, OK, I suppose the teams improving can be looked at as a positive, but how has the league improved. The Welsh team has improved, because the basis was always there, we will always produce rugby players in Wales, the fact that we have become more professional is why the Welsh team has improved, but alas, we cannot afford to have enough of these players in each region, but there is enough for one team, Wales.

Pete330v2 wrote:Yes, if the provinces were realigned what choice would I have?
I was born in Ulster so support Ulster, that makes it very easy for me and I can't say I wouldn't be annoyed if the Pro16 decided to realign the provinces and create, say, 2 super provinces. East v's west or something like that. I would however have to suck it up and jump on board through a lack of alternatives.

When/if this actually happens to you, then we can discuss, but for every one of you, there would be hundreds that will not. I was a season ticket holder with Celtic Warriors, I was a season ticket holder with Pontypridd prior, and even when the Warriors were cut, I still followed the other regions, I am just disillusioned with the whole Pro14 and regionalism now, because to be blunt, regionalism does not exist anymore, and the league is boring, the conference system is rubbish, I would like to see with the SA sides joining a two tier league. The refereeing is crap, all these new laws for the rainbow cup are a joke, I was watching Cardiff against Zebre on Saturday night, and the second half took over an hour to complete by the amount of times the referee who was out of his depth was constantly going to the TMO, and the we had the stupid captains challenges.

At one point the TMO, I think it was Ian Davies who said, live on air, that he was glad the captains challenges were over, he was just fed up of going over footage after footage waiting for the ref to make a call.

If you can tell me how the league has in your words improved and made positive impacts, and I see it, I will honestly agree with you, perhaps there is something I am not noticing.

Just throwing it out there, I don’t support any one team from SA in a multi country league,I support all teams as a measure of how we compare to other nations.

I think supprting any single team these days is useless as very few teams are acutally representing their region or city as mercenaries have become part and parcel of professional rugby.

My team is the Springboks because at least they are relatively pure in the sense that 95% of them are South African developed.

We have the odd player that might come from Zimbabwe or Namibia.

Old Man wrote:Just throwing it out there, I don’t support any one team from SA in a multi country league,I support all teams as a measure of how we compare to other nations.

I think supprting any single team these days is useless as very few teams are acutally representing their region or city as mercenaries have become part and parcel of professional rugby.

My team is the Springboks because at least they are relatively pure in the sense that 95% of them are South African developed.

We have the odd player that might come from Zimbabwe or Namibia.

Yeah I had assumed you were a Bulls fan because I was under the impression you lived around Pretoria, my mistake!

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:Just throwing it out there, I don’t support any one team from SA in a multi country league,I support all teams as a measure of how we compare to other nations.

I think supprting any single team these days is useless as very few teams are acutally representing their region or city as mercenaries have become part and parcel of professional rugby.

My team is the Springboks because at least they are relatively pure in the sense that 95% of them are South African developed.

We have the odd player that might come from Zimbabwe or Namibia.

Yeah I had assumed you were a Bulls fan because I was under the impression you lived around Pretoria, my mistake!

No worries, being a Lions supporter in my former life I could never support the Bulls as we are sworn enemies from across the Jukskei river

No 7&1/2 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:What are the limits of non-Welsh qualified players Phil within the Welsh teams? Or what is the agreement ie do the WRU not give the 80% of wage to the clubs if they play for example 3 english players in the side? Can't find it through google.

The 80% refers to only the top 38 players. The equivalent of the EPS payment and EPS salary cap credit.

The limit on nWq is, from memory, 6 per squad although the Scarlets were allowed an exemption because they provided more to the 38. I think they had 7 nWq at one point, maybe more because of injury to Samson Lee.

Just match day squad or people on the books?

Employed.

Brendan wrote:

From Britannica
Gerrymandering, in U.S. politics, the practice of drawing the boundaries of electoral districts in a way that gives one political party an unfair advantage over its rivals (political or partisan gerrymandering) or that dilutes the voting power of members of ethnic or linguistic minority groups (racial gerrymandering). The term is derived from the name of Gov. Elbridge Gerry of Massachusetts

So I think my understanding was correct.  Schools in Munster feed in Munster. Schools in Leinster feed into Leinster.  Boundaries have been what they are since the 1100s and the Provinces have been representive teams since 1940s.

Again please advise how the teams of Scarlets, Ospreys, Blues/Cardiff and Benetton aren't lines drawn on a map to make sure each Region covered certain areas.  Unless the 4 teams covering that area since before 2000.

You've missed the context.

To clarify for you: gerrymandering refers to Nucifora determining the make up of four squads.

Brendan wrote:

Believe it or not lots of shareholders have shares in companies but negatively affect the company they hold shares in.  That could be like owning shares in a betting company but choosing to use another betting company because they give better odds.

I wasn't aware that the league was offered two prices by sponsers/tv That said they would pay move if the WRU acted differently.  Do you have news on what the league has lost out on directly because of the WRU

I have no idea what the hell you are on about, sorry, but you seem to be trying to align major shareholders with 30% equity with a bloke making a bet with a company not in his pension pot.

I mean, bloody hell.

Brendan wrote:

When all the teams signed up to the league they signed up to the travel costs.  When the SA teams joined each team got 500k extra plus travel to SA covered because teams hadn't signed up to SA.

Again I wasn't aware that there was a choice of Welsh team to either pick to be part of the Pro16 or do something themselves.  Were they offered a competition that would allow them to have English travel costs.

The £500k included travel costs, but never mind as you've ventured again into that weird land of disconnected nonsense.

Brendan wrote:

I doubt the FIR would sign up to join the 3rd division and I doubt the Pro16 would give up the potential of Italy and solely focus on the Celtic Nations.  Add in that Italy now has more player number and larger economic potential compared to Wales and Scotland.  Glad you don't run the league.

Nobody mentioned the third division.

I don't know why you wrote Italy now has "larger economic potential compared to Wales and Scotland". Did you only just realise the size of Italy? It's comfortably more than 4 times the size of the Irish economy.

I've no idea why you don't understand that few in Wales want any part of this league.

Brendan wrote:

I think if the Private owned teams demanded that the other 12 teams be sold off the other 12 teams would stay in the league and the 4 private teams would have to deciede if it was a rock to die on.

Are you saying you want a repeat of the Kings and Aronini instead of the stability of Zebre and Dragons.  Lets remember the last team that told its players it could keep going and mighr not be around after the end of a season was a private owned team.  Your problem with union owned teams seems to be they are too strong which surely improves the league not weaken it.

Again why would you ban the shareholders from having teams in the league and why would you change the league rules when each team happily signed up to the rules.

Jesus wept, this is painful.

Your first paragraph has taken the discussion completely out of context to your desired world of disconnected nonsense. Why do you do this? Why can't you follow the conversation?

My problem with union owned teams is that they don't stand or fall by their own actions, as I pointed out to you earlier with the Nucifora reference.

I'm sure that the fans of Borders would have something to say to you, too.

Brendan wrote:
Pro16 is the 3rd richest league in terms of squad spends.  It happily could afford players from the SR league and the Tasman cup pays even less. Japan may pay a couple of players alot but not the squad.

The reason the WRU created the Celtic league was because the Welsh domestic league couldn't.  If the Pro16 did not exist can you advise how many of the 160 players in Wales would not be professional players.  I would guess about 50+% as their choices would be the Russian League or French 2nd and 3rd division.

Did you ever think the Pro16 is a blessing for having 160 professional players being able to be based in Wales not be curse.

You now seem unaware that the Celtic League was enforced after the WRU turned down an Anglo-Welsh league, just to add to this disconnected universe you live in.

Brendan wrote:

One thing overlooked with the English wage cap is helping to have more English players be professional.  If the cap doubled it would be English players that would end up unemployed not non-English players Because they are rarely the lower squad players.

I got this far before I gave up as it's clear you don't understand how working visas are organised, so your own ideas fail at the most basic level of research.

Brendan, I would give up if I were you, it is clear you have no idea

Old Man wrote:Brendan, I would give up if I were you, it is clear you have no idea

That's right .

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:The funny thing is that - a B & I league - is pretty much what everyone would like to see - the Irish in particular, loads of tourists from the English clubs in Dublin and Belfast, big games against the top English teams, and a reasonable likelihood that we'd have at least two teams more likely three teams in the top division of it. London Irish would also be laughing all the way to the bank with games against the provinces on a regular basis.

I do not want to burst your bubble, but I do not think the IRFU want a B&I league.

I can't see any reason why not, apart from anything else the money would be great. Ultimately for Irish, Welsh and all the other teams it will come down what CVC organise...

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:The funny thing is that - a B & I league - is pretty much what everyone would like to see - the Irish in particular, loads of tourists from the English clubs in Dublin and Belfast, big games against the top English teams, and a reasonable likelihood that we'd have at least two teams more likely three teams in the top division of it. London Irish would also be laughing all the way to the bank with games against the provinces on a regular basis.

I do not want to burst your bubble, but I do not think the IRFU want a B&I league.

I can't see any reason why not, apart from anything else the money would be great. Ultimately for Irish, Welsh and all the other teams it will come down what CVC organise...

Will the English be happy with how the Irish run their sides ?

I can imagine the PRL having something to say about it, also, how would they work under any salary cap the English use ? It would be a mine field.

You don't all have the same rules on salary etc now so why would there be in a proposed B&I league. I imagine the Bristols and Saracens want out of a salary cap asap so they can spend as much as they want. Would they want less money and power though and the greater threat of relegation. Probably unlikely.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:The funny thing is that - a B & I league - is pretty much what everyone would like to see - the Irish in particular, loads of tourists from the English clubs in Dublin and Belfast, big games against the top English teams, and a reasonable likelihood that we'd have at least two teams more likely three teams in the top division of it. London Irish would also be laughing all the way to the bank with games against the provinces on a regular basis.

I do not want to burst your bubble, but I do not think the IRFU want a B&I league.

I can't see any reason why not, apart from anything else the money would be great. Ultimately for Irish, Welsh and all the other teams it will come down what CVC organise...

Will the English be happy with how the Irish run their sides ?

I can imagine the PRL having something to say about it, also, how would they work under any salary cap the English use ? It would be a mine field.

I can't see why not, the English clubs play the French clubs with no issue. There would have to be some sort of monitoring of salary spend for all the participants, don't forget Scotland has the same ownership model as Ireland. I don't see how the Irish and Scottish clubs are funded makes a huge difference to the English clubs, who all also get (and rely on) funding from the RFU to help balance the books.

I mean for a really level playing field you could propose that clubs can spend whatever they like but that it has to be generated by the club and not brought in from external "investors" be that sugardaddies or unions, so basically clubs work off ticket sales, merch, whatever else they can raise - catering, beer, club dinners, etc. prize money for winning tournaments and league position and the TV money. Of course the English clubs might not be in favour of that either...everything's negotiable.

As I said given that now CVC are on board with a remit to extract maximum revenue then it really depends on them.

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:The funny thing is that - a B & I league - is pretty much what everyone would like to see - the Irish in particular, loads of tourists from the English clubs in Dublin and Belfast, big games against the top English teams, and a reasonable likelihood that we'd have at least two teams more likely three teams in the top division of it. London Irish would also be laughing all the way to the bank with games against the provinces on a regular basis.

I do not want to burst your bubble, but I do not think the IRFU want a B&I league.

I can't see any reason why not, apart from anything else the money would be great. Ultimately for Irish, Welsh and all the other teams it will come down what CVC organise...

Will the English be happy with how the Irish run their sides ?

I can imagine the PRL having something to say about it, also, how would they work under any salary cap the English use ? It would be a mine field.

I can't see why not, the English clubs play the French clubs with no issue. There would have to be some sort of monitoring of salary spend for all the participants, don't forget Scotland has the same ownership model as Ireland. I don't see how the Irish and Scottish clubs are funded makes a huge difference to the English clubs, who all also get (and rely on) funding from the RFU to help balance the books.

I mean for a really level playing field you could propose that clubs can spend whatever they like but that it has to be generated by the club and not brought in from external "investors" be that sugardaddies or unions, so basically clubs work off ticket sales, merch, whatever else they can raise - catering, beer, club dinners, etc. prize money for winning tournaments and league position and the TV money. Of course the English clubs might not be in favour of that either...everything's negotiable.

As I said given that now CVC are on board with a remit to extract maximum revenue then it really depends on them.

They'd need agreement from the clubs etc. Just see recent football leagues also for fan power.

Irish Londoner wrote:I can't see why not, the English clubs play the French clubs with no issue. There would have to be some sort of monitoring of salary spend for all the participants, don't forget Scotland has the same ownership model as Ireland. I don't see how the Irish and Scottish clubs are funded makes a huge difference to the English clubs, who all also get (and rely on) funding from the RFU to help balance the books.

I mean for a really level playing field you could propose that clubs can spend whatever they like but that it has to be generated by the club and not brought in from external "investors" be that sugardaddies or unions, so basically clubs work off ticket sales, merch, whatever else they can raise - catering, beer, club dinners, etc. prize money for winning tournaments and league position and the TV money. Of course the English clubs might not be in favour of that either...everything's negotiable.

As I said given that now CVC are on board with a remit to extract maximum revenue then it really depends on them.

You see this is where you do not understand, the Irish provinces cannot be monitored.

Also, if you could not have sugar daddies or unions, then Munster and Connacht would be anywhere near where they are now, the IRFU simply will not have it.

No 7&1/2 wrote: They'd need agreement from the clubs etc. Just see recent football leagues also for fan power.

I don't think there's anything like the fan power in rugby compared to football, otherwise the WRU would have been chasing an Anglo-Welsh League for years to placate the thousands of regional and "disenfranchised" fans screaming blue murder outside WRU HQ every week  

Any new arrangement is obviously going to need all the clubs concerned to agree and that's where I think CVC see their opportunity.

Given they now have a finger in both the domestic and international pies across B & I rugby and that any revenue they get is dependent on them generating it, and given that all the pro clubs clubs from Scotland to Exeter and from Connacht to Newcastle are financially on their ar5es in the post Covid economy, any plan that looks like it's going to bring in more money will be signed up to.

If they could generate the funds thats one tick. I very much doubt they could guarantee the same income to the English though and certainly not the power. Any B&I league would lower the money generated from Europe as well as it loses the novelty.

We would then still have a large portion of fans still not happy as they'd have to go to Munster and Newcastle etc. They'd still be below Leinster and now they'd be getting battered by Exeter and Bristol as well. Would Newcastle really be better off in a second division B&I league money wise. Would they more quickly ose guys like Radwan who want to play at the top?

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:I can't see why not, the English clubs play the French clubs with no issue. There would have to be some sort of monitoring of salary spend for all the participants, don't forget Scotland has the same ownership model as Ireland. I don't see how the Irish and Scottish clubs are funded makes a huge difference to the English clubs, who all also get (and rely on) funding from the RFU to help balance the books.

I mean for a really level playing field you could propose that clubs can spend whatever they like but that it has to be generated by the club and not brought in from external "investors" be that sugardaddies or unions, so basically clubs work off ticket sales, merch, whatever else they can raise - catering, beer, club dinners, etc. prize money for winning tournaments and league position and the TV money. Of course the English clubs might not be in favour of that either...everything's negotiable.

As I said given that now CVC are on board with a remit to extract maximum revenue then it really depends on them.

You see this is where you do not understand, the Irish provinces cannot be monitored.

Also, if you could not have sugar daddies or unions, then Munster and Connacht would be anywhere near where they are now, the IRFU simply will not have it.

Why not, the IRFU publishes it's accounts same as everyone else so where the money goes would be there. More detailed information regarding wages, contracts, bonuses, etc. could be provided privately to the league auditors same as the English clubs do.

The "level playing field" was a slight tongue in cheek comment - is there in real terms a difference between the union giving a team money to keep it at a higher level than it's own income would allow and Bruce Craig doing exactly the same thing at Bath? Does who signs the cheques matter that much?

No 7&1/2 wrote:If they could generate the funds thats one tick. I very much doubt they could guarantee the same income to the English though and certainly not the power. Any B&I league would lower the money generated from Europe as well as it loses the novelty.

We would then still have a large portion of fans still not happy as they'd have to go to Munster and Newcastle etc. They'd still be below Leinster and now they'd be getting battered by Exeter and Bristol as well. Would Newcastle really be better off in a second division B&I league money wise. Would they more quickly ose guys like Radwan who want to play at the top?

I agree with a lot of that, but like everything else it will be driven by the big clubs - if Bath, Wasps, Harlequins and Saracens want a B & I league it will happen regardless of what Newcastle, Worcester or for that matter Connacht think. Short term gain and quick money....not saying it's right.

Of course whether Welsh fans would go to Newcastle or the other rugby sides outside the ones on their doorstep (Bath & Bristol) would also be an argument against an Anglo-Welsh league.....

Irish Londoner wrote:Why not, the IRFU publishes it's accounts same as everyone else so where the money goes would be there. More detailed information regarding wages, contracts, bonuses, etc. could be provided privately to the league auditors same as the English clubs do.

No they don't. If you want to see what any of the provinces are spending, then go and try and have a look. Seriously they do not publish their accounts.

Irish Londoner wrote:Of course whether Welsh fans would go to Newcastle or the other rugby sides outside the ones on their doorstep (Bath & Bristol) would also be an argument against an Anglo-Welsh league.....

Newcastle would be a bit of a bind, but it is one fixture, all other games would more than likely have travelling fans both home and away.

To do it in the Pro14 you need to book flights, ferry, hotels ect..... for all away fixtures other than the derbies.

Irish Londoner wrote:Of course whether Welsh fans would go to Newcastle or the other rugby sides outside the ones on their doorstep (Bath & Bristol) would also be an argument against an Anglo-Welsh league.....

Why wouldn't they ?

Newcastle aside, there is not much in it, Sale, you can do in a day, All the London based clubs are just a drive down the M4, perhaps Exeter, but again, thats just two hours down the M5. I do not know why you keep poking with this jibe ?

Presumably they wouldn't because at least half of the rugby supporting population in Wales do not support the 4 regions. But what they would do is watch them on the tele, because they support rugby.

LordDowlais wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:Of course whether Welsh fans would go to Newcastle or the other rugby sides outside the ones on their doorstep (Bath & Bristol) would also be an argument against an Anglo-Welsh league.....

Why wouldn't they ?

Newcastle aside, there is not much in it, Sale, you can do in a day, All the London based clubs are just a drive down the M4, perhaps Exeter, but again, thats just two hours down the M5. I do not know why you keep poking with this jibe ?

Mainly because when Welsh clubs get English clubs in Europe (which happens fairly regularly) there appears to be no huge increment in visting fans from Wales or indeed a huge increase at Welsh grounds when the English play there.

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:Just throwing it out there, I don’t support any one team from SA in a multi country league,I support all teams as a measure of how we compare to other nations.

I think supprting any single team these days is useless as very few teams are acutally representing their region or city as mercenaries have become part and parcel of professional rugby.

My team is the Springboks because at least they are relatively pure in the sense that 95% of them are South African developed.

We have the odd player that might come from Zimbabwe or Namibia.

Yeah I had assumed you were a Bulls fan because I was under the impression you lived around Pretoria, my mistake!

No worries, being a Lions supporter in my former life I could never support the Bulls as we are sworn enemies from across the Jukskei river

My wife is a Lions fan because of where she grew up but her Dad is a Bulls fan through and through. She loves to wind him up especial the last few years when the Lions where strong and the Bulls where poor.

The Bulls fans can be overly stubborn so easy to wind up I have found.

Brendan wrote:

Old Man wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Old Man wrote:Just throwing it out there, I don’t support any one team from SA in a multi country league,I support all teams as a measure of how we compare to other nations.

I think supprting any single team these days is useless as very few teams are acutally representing their region or city as mercenaries have become part and parcel of professional rugby.

My team is the Springboks because at least they are relatively pure in the sense that 95% of them are South African developed.

We have the odd player that might come from Zimbabwe or Namibia.

Yeah I had assumed you were a Bulls fan because I was under the impression you lived around Pretoria, my mistake!

No worries, being a Lions supporter in my former life I could never support the Bulls as we are sworn enemies from across the Jukskei river

My wife is a Lions fan because of where she grew up but her Dad is a Bulls fan through and through.  She loves to wind him up especial the last few years when the Lions where strong and the Bulls where poor.

The Bulls fans can be overly stubborn so easy to wind up I have found.

Bull supporters in my experience are very one eyed supporters. a Colleague of mine many years ago couldn’t stop reminding me how useless Brian Habana was when he was still playing for the Lions, as soon as Habana contracted with the Bulls he was the best thing since sliced bread.

Old Man, that sounds just like Ospreys, Scarlets and Cardiff fans over here .

I think they are everywhere Mikey, they usually blame the referee when their teams lose as well.

Old Man wrote:I think they are everywhere Mikey, they usually blame the referee when their teams lose as well.

They will fit right in

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably they wouldn't because at least half of the rugby supporting population in Wales do not support the 4 regions. But what they would do is watch them on the tele, because they support rugby.

See it's the spiteful trolling replies like this that descend this place into the toxic environment that we are trying to avoid. Always trying to win the internet

Why can't it be beyond comprehension, that the fans who do go to watch the regions will travel to away games that they do not need to book a flight, hotel or ferry ?

How is that spiteful trolling? Its a comment from you!

In my experience it's normally the same set of fans who will go to away games no matter if its down the road or in Plymouth. And those are the fans of the teams. The point of my reply was that you said that theres a host who don't support them at all.

No 7&1/2 wrote:How is that spiteful trolling? Its a comment from you!

In my experience it's normally the same set of fans who will go to away games no matter if its down the road or in Plymouth. And those are the fans of the teams. The point of my reply was that you said that theres a host who don't support them at all.

It's the undertone of the comment, and you know what you are doing.

If you can drive to game and back all in the same day, then you will more than likely get travelling fans, if you have to stay overnight, pay for hotels, pay for flights, pay for ferry crossings, then you are less likely to see travelling fans, hence why you do not see them in the Pro14.

There's no undertone just a point back. Stop being so thin skinned, if you want to make statements where everyone agrees with you a forum isn't the place to do it.

London pretty much says the same thing, it may be nice for some Welsh fans go to Bristol but the same issues would be there for Newcastle and Munster trips. Again from my experience of supporters the novelty helps crowds initially. As when you see new teams come up in the football prem they fill the ground travel away, if they're lucky enough to become a fixture the crowds generally fall away. To draw big crowds consistently you need really large fanbases, Given your point on less than half the rugby population supporting the regions it leads to the same issue. I don't think you'd see huge leaps in attendances for Bristol attendances at their home games for instance over a 5 year period.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There's no undertone just a point back. Stop being so thin skinned, if you want to make statements where everyone agrees with you a forum isn't the place to do it.

London pretty much says the same thing, it may be nice for some Welsh fans go to Bristol but the same issues would be there for Newcastle and Munster trips. Again from my experience of supporters the novelty helps crowds initially. As when you see new teams come up in the football prem they fill the ground travel away, if they're lucky enough to become a fixture the crowds generally fall away. To draw big crowds consistently you need really large fanbases, Given your point on less than half the rugby population supporting the regions it leads to the same issue. I don't think you'd see huge leaps in attendances for Bristol attendances at their home games for instance over a 5 year period.

Fans who don't go to home games aren't going to go to away games and I doubt 50% of the home team fans go to away games.

Games still happen on Friday night and if you want to drink then Hotels are kind of part of the journey.

Wales is also not blessed with great airports for anyone looking to fly (which might also be why the Welsh teams get less away fans) might find it harder to get to (like Galway which is about an hour from the airports)

2019 passager numbers
The 4 big London airports are 4 of the top 5. Manchester is no.4 (for Sale). Edinburgh 6, Birmingham 7, Bristol 8, Glasgow 9, Belfast 10,  Newcastle 11, London City 12, Liverpool 13, East Midlands 14, Leeds 15, Aberdeen 16, Belfast City 17, London Southend 18, Southampton 19, Jersey 20, Cardiff 21 (was a little smaller then Southampton and Jersey)
Irish Airports would have been Dublin is a little bigger than Manchester, Cork the size of Belfast City and Shannon is the size of Cardiff.

It use to be as cheap to fly from Cork to Newcastle as to drive to Dublin and even Scottish Airports are fairly cheap.  I don't see the problem in flying especially if a group gets together and packs a bus out.  It might be a Wales thing because of lack of flights but plenty Irish would go the UK or western Europe for a weekend and stay in some cheap hostel or AirBnB (pre-covid anyway) just for a change of scenery.

In theory driving is great to away games but after 3-5 hours in the car each way the flight looks more appealing