Political round up.............

First topic message reminder :

The best thing about our system is that every single person in the country gets an equal vote under equal circumstances. Unless a National ID card scheme is introduced this will just alienate poorer voters. Just another way to rig the system.

Wakefield result:

Lab: 13166
Con: 8241
Ind (Akbar): 2090
Yorkshire: 1182
Green: 587
Reform UK: 513
Lib Dem: 508
Britain First: 311
Freedom: 187
OMRLP: 171
CPA: 144
Eng Dem: 135
UKIP: 124
NIP: 84
Ind (Fransen): 23

Rejected: 62

A seat that voted 66.4% to leave the EU has now abandoned the Conservatives.

At least Lord Frost still thinks Brexit is going well.

Tiverton & Honiton parliamentary by-election result

LDEM: 52.9% (+38.1)
CON: 38.5% (-21.7)
LAB: 3.7% (-15.9)
GRN: 2.5% (-1.3)
REF: 1.1% (+1.1)
UKIP: 0.6% (-1.1)

Horrific result for the Tories. A lot of MP’s in supposedly safe seats who backed Johnson will have some serious thinking to do now.

And, right on time, the Conservatives also lose Tiverton and Honiton. Fantastic stuff.

Cant wait to see how the Class of 2019 try to spin this as Starmers fault.

The scale of the Tory disaster in Tiverton and Honiton can't really be understated. That area has had Tory MPs since the 1920s and this is the largest numerical majority to be overturned in a byelection ever. And they still won it by 6,000 votes at a canter.

Oliver Dowden has resigned as the Chairman of the Conservative Party.

"Somebody must take responsibility"

Ouch.

Enough for the Tory chairman to take responsibility and resign...but no doubt Boris will still have to be dragged out by his heels ...I am sure he will have a spin for this.

Somethingsomething Tiverton was just a protest vote somethingsomething doesnt apply to the rest of the country somethingsomething Wakefield swing wasnt a big as Labour hoped somethingsomething hold on I’ve got to give Zelensky a phone somethingsomething.

One of the “anti woke” bell ends has taken a walk. Apparently because someone needs to take responsibility, and we all know it’s not going to be spaffer!

Wonder whether it’s possible to swing by Ukraine for a photo op pretending to be on the frontlines on the way back from Rwanda

When a 24k majority isn't safe gonna be a lot more MPs demanding Boris goes

I wouldnt entirely rule out a General Election. If Johnson feels he’s done for anyway it would be worth another roll of the dice. Not like he has anything to lose.

Think the Tories would be hastily rewriting their rules to punt him before he got that past parliament

dummy_half wrote:

lostinwales wrote:In a world where receiving funding from Unions is bad but funding from Russian oligarchs is completely OK.

To be fair I am not the greatest fan of unions get involved in politics, especially given the tortuous versions of 'democracy' that some run internally. Unions are really important though

There are, and always have been, Unions and Unions though. Some have always had the welfare of their members as their guiding principle, whereas others are more interested in getting involved in political battles - from that perspective, the RMT appears to have taken the mantle of Scargill's NUM in trying to take on the (Conservative) Government, which I'm not convinced is a good thing to do at this time*. Didn't, ultimately, work out well for the miners and gave Thatcher a close at hand enemy that allowed her to push through some quite radical economic reforms

*Never interrupt your enemy when they are making a mistake, and with Boris in chearge there are plenty of those...

There is a great deal of fuss about the RMT and Lynch in particular because he's done so very well in the interviews to date. On top of his brief and very clear in what he says. He has shown up the standard Tory muppets he's been put up against. I do think what the RMT are trying to do and what the NUM did are very different, as are the states of the industries concerned. My biggest worry is the way in which in the media the rail strike narrative has been driven by crap about pay for drivers who are both not striking and by many standards are already well rewarded for a very responsible role. When you actually see the reasons why they are striking it is much more understandable.

They won't be the only group to go out on strike this summer and I don't think our government has any answers as to how to deal with them, beyond blaming Labour.

Horror night for the Tories and for Johnson specifically. This has to be the end of the road for him and I expect senior figures in the Tory party to be telling him as much over the next few days.

Tiverton an utter smashing in a safe seat and highlights the ire directed at this government. Also underlines how the Lib Dems are going to worry the Tories in nearly as many seats as Labour do at the next GE. This seat will obviously go back to blue at the next GE, but for now it is the personification of the judgement of this government and Johnson in particular.

Wakefield, not as bad as the Tories feared to be perfectly honest, and highlights the lukewarm reception that Labour are getting. Labour should be hammering the Tories in seats like this if they're getting back to number ten at the next General Election, but they're not. Have a look at this comparison:

Dudley 1992 General Election - Tories 49%, Labour 41%; Dudley 1994 by-election; Labour 69%, Tories 19%.
SE Staffordshire 1992 GE - Tories 51%; Labour 38%; SE Staffordshire 1996 by-election; Labour 60%, Tories 28.5%

Wakefield 2019 General Election - Tories 47%, Labour 40%; Wakefield 2022 by-election; Labour 48%, Tories 30%.

While these comparisons are not perfect, Labour should be getting closer to the top two figures than they are if they are to win the next GE.

Obviously not going to be a GE any time soon. Johnson won't be allowed to do this by his handlers in the Tory Party. He needs to resign soon, then the Tories get a new leader and rebuild towards winning the next GE in 2024 which, while Starmer is there, the Tories are favourite to do (provided Johnson is out of the way). But Starmer may not be around for much longer and some in his party will be hoping that's the case.

Who do the Tories pick? Do they elevate a current cabinet minister and hope thats enough? Or do they try and remove the stink of Johnson altogether?

If I’m someone like Jeremy Hunt I’m getting all my pieces in place.

Christ. Thinking about it there really is a serious lack of talent in that party at the moment.

Just for reference, because its not obvious, this is a message about why the strike is happening (taken from a couple of places on Twitter)

Railway worker wrote:Three years ago we accepted a 0% pay rise, two years ago we accepted a 0% pay rise. But this year they came to us with a 0% pay rise plus over 2500 redundancies, changes to terms and conditions. An increase from 28 weeks of nights to 39 weeks of nights.
An increase from 32 weekends worked to 39 weekends worked. Currently for a night shift we get time and a quarter, for a weekend turn we get time and a half. They wish to cut both of these to time and a tenth.
So that’s a 15% pay cut on every night shift and a 40% pay cut on every weekend turn. But they want us to work more of them. This is their modernisation they talk about. Not technology, we embrace technology and have seen more and more of it in recent years.
They also wish to fire and re-hire the operative grades and bring them back under a new job title but on £9000 a year less. They also want them to use their own vehicles to get to work sites, this when fuel is at its highest.
They will also be pooled when currently they are part of the team. The press are painting this to be about pay above all else. It is not. Now we’ve said sod them we are going to demand better. I wish everyone could see past the government controlled media smear

Johnson getting another headache as Sturgeon tries to force through another referendum on Scotland leaving the UK. She's even named a date - 19 October 2023. It will probably go to the courts.

Despite the unpopularity of the Tory government, the last nine polls have indicated a narrow lead for 'no' on the question of 'Should Scotland be an independent country?'.

Oh and there's more talk of Tory MPs defecting to Labour. The Sunday Times said six MPs were ready to defect, the Guardian says 'at least one' is in 'advanced talks', and the Telegraph claims three 'red wall' MPs are ready to defect.

I think it would be bizarre for anyone to defect, and it would be harmful to both Johnson and Starmer. Any defection should trigger an automatic by-election, it's a shame such legislation isn't in place.

Duty281 wrote:Johnson getting another headache as Sturgeon tries to force through another referendum on Scotland leaving the UK. She's even named a date - 19 October 2023. It will probably go to the courts.

Despite the unpopularity of the Tory government, the last nine polls have indicated a narrow lead for 'no' on the question of 'Should Scotland be an independent country?'.

Oh and there's more talk of Tory MPs defecting to Labour. The Sunday Times said six MPs were ready to defect, the Guardian says 'at least one' is in 'advanced talks', and the Telegraph claims three 'red wall' MPs are ready to defect.

I think it would be bizarre for anyone to defect, and it would be harmful to both Johnson and Starmer. Any defection should trigger an automatic by-election, it's a shame such legislation isn't in place.

Depends if you consider what people are voting for. In theory they are voting for the MP not the party although in reality this is not necessarily the case. The MP themselves should be there to represent their constituency first party second. Again....

We don't have a PR system where the party decides who becomes a MP based on the vote share.

Cheers Dominic for admitting why you don't want Scotland to go independent ('We want what you have').

https://twitter.com/SeparatistVegan/status/1542114298083917825?s=20&t=tqYQrhkFpmKZEiL_UqoVug

This potential referendum is all very exciting news. I have always longed for the day of an independent England, independent Scotland, independent Wales, and finally after all these years, a united Ireland.

Jimmy Moz wrote:This potential referendum is all very exciting news. I have always longed for the day of an independent England, independent Scotland, independent Wales, and finally after all these years, a united Ireland.

I wouldn't mind a free Jersey either.

Can we have an independent London too? I don't want to be left with all the Tory morons in the home counties.

There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

BamBam wrote:Can we have an independent London too? I don't want to be left with all the Tory morons in the home counties.

I live in the home counties.

How dare you call me a Tory!

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence. Quick question for you.

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence.  Quick question for you.  

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

There needn't be any decrease in public spending. Scotland's taxes are currently being spent in billions on projects currently of no benefit whatsoever to Scotland - HS2 terminating no further north than Leeds, on a refurb of the Houses of Parliament and on a refurb of Buckingham Palace. Frees up billions to be spent within Scotland.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence.  Quick question for you.  

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

There needn't be any decrease in public spending. Scotland's taxes are currently being spent in billions on projects currently of no benefit whatsoever to Scotland - HS2 terminating no further north than Leeds, on a refurb of the Houses of Parliament and on a refurb of Buckingham Palace. Frees up billions to be spent within Scotland.

That's not correct and is based on a misreading of GERS which has been spread round on Twitter and jumped on by people who haven't read GERS.

Duty281 wrote:https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

Polls are fine until you look at the sources - The Scotsman (staunchly pro-unionist), ITV (pro-Unionist) and such-like. The mandate was achieved by the pro-Independence parties who canvassed in the last GE on this and won the majority of seats.

Trailing by 2% is neither here nor there and lets remember where support for independence sat as prior to the 2014 indy ref being announced - they stood at 25 to 29% and ended up with 44.7%. Pro-independence therefore starting from a far healthier position.

There are reasons that No remains high in polls. There are a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who live here and no doubt get polled who have reasons to vote No for feeling cut off from their homeland. There are those that are petrified of change. The sort that were mortified at the thought of stuff such as decimalisation and such-like and fear change. Those that cling to a state that they've known all of their life and who have been brought up to swear the UK is the be all and end all when, if they opened their eyes, they'd see it really wasn't. As for your last point for the Yes side to get ahead it needs Scots to be braver and positive about an Independent Scotland and the possibilities that brings.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

Polls are fine until you look at the sources - The Scotsman (staunchly pro-unionist), ITV (pro-Unionist) and such-like. The mandate was achieved by the pro-Independence parties who canvassed in the last GE on this and won the majority of seats.

Trailing by 2% is neither here nor there and lets remember where support for independence sat as prior to the 2014 indy ref being announced - they stood at 25 to 29% and ended up with 44.7%. Pro-independence therefore starting from a far healthier position.

There are reasons that No remains high in polls. There are a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who live here and no doubt get polled who have reasons to vote No for feeling cut off from their homeland. There are those that are petrified of change. The sort that were mortified at the thought of stuff such as decimalisation and such-like and fear change. Those that cling to a state that they've known all of their life and who have been brought up to swear the UK is the be all and end all when, if they opened their eyes, they'd see it really wasn't. As for your last point for the Yes side to get ahead it needs Scots to be braver and positive about an Independent Scotland and the possibilities that brings.

Nationalist exceptionalism in action, folks. Anyone remember similar arguments being made in favour of Brexit?

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence.  Quick question for you.  

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

There needn't be any decrease in public spending. Scotland's taxes are currently being spent in billions on projects currently of no benefit whatsoever to Scotland - HS2 terminating no further north than Leeds, on a refurb of the Houses of Parliament and on a refurb of Buckingham Palace. Frees up billions to be spent within Scotland.

That's not correct and is based on a misreading of GERS which has been spread round on Twitter and jumped on by people who haven't read GERS.  

Ah yes good old GERS. A creation by a Tory Scottish Minister in 1992 designed to deter calls for devolution and later independence. And remember that GERS take figures as of now within the UK whereas does not take into account what revenues would be in an independent Scotland.

What revenues would be in an independent Scotland taking into account that all that perspective revenue you think exists is actually under the dominion of the United Kingdom and not Scotland. Were independence to come about it wouldn't be a case of Scotland obtaining access to all North Sea oil or the 60% of the UK's natural gases resources or even all of the fishing rights it thinks it has, the UK government would ensure they obtained the rights they want.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence.  Quick question for you.  

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

There needn't be any decrease in public spending. Scotland's taxes are currently being spent in billions on projects currently of no benefit whatsoever to Scotland - HS2 terminating no further north than Leeds, on a refurb of the Houses of Parliament and on a refurb of Buckingham Palace. Frees up billions to be spent within Scotland.

That's not correct and is based on a misreading of GERS which has been spread round on Twitter and jumped on by people who haven't read GERS.  

Ah yes good old GERS. A creation by a Tory Scottish Minister in 1992 designed to deter calls for devolution and later independence. And remember that GERS take figures as of now within the UK whereas does not take into account what revenues would be in an independent Scotland.

And compiled each year by the Scottish Government's own statisticians and each year (apart from a period in the 80's) clearly showing a deficit of revenue collected in Scotland v spend in Scotland.

So what additional revenues would there be in an independent Scotland with a hard border between it and its largest (by some distance) trading partner? Maybe we can put the additional revenues on the side of a bus?

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

Polls are fine until you look at the sources - The Scotsman (staunchly pro-unionist), ITV (pro-Unionist) and such-like. The mandate was achieved by the pro-Independence parties who canvassed in the last GE on this and won the majority of seats.

Trailing by 2% is neither here nor there and lets remember where support for independence sat as prior to the 2014 indy ref being announced - they stood at 25 to 29% and ended up with 44.7%. Pro-independence therefore starting from a far healthier position.

There are reasons that No remains high in polls. There are a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who live here and no doubt get polled who have reasons to vote No for feeling cut off from their homeland. There are those that are petrified of change. The sort that were mortified at the thought of stuff such as decimalisation and such-like and fear change. Those that cling to a state that they've known all of their life and who have been brought up to swear the UK is the be all and end all when, if they opened their eyes, they'd see it really wasn't. As for your last point for the Yes side to get ahead it needs Scots to be braver and positive about an Independent Scotland and the possibilities that brings.

Nationalist exceptionalism in action, folks.  Anyone remember similar arguments being made in favour of Brexit?  

What are you gibbering about? Those points were all on why people continue to vote No in reply to Duty's post on why not more Yes's.

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence.  Quick question for you.  

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

There needn't be any decrease in public spending. Scotland's taxes are currently being spent in billions on projects currently of no benefit whatsoever to Scotland - HS2 terminating no further north than Leeds, on a refurb of the Houses of Parliament and on a refurb of Buckingham Palace. Frees up billions to be spent within Scotland.

That's not correct and is based on a misreading of GERS which has been spread round on Twitter and jumped on by people who haven't read GERS.  

Ah yes good old GERS. A creation by a Tory Scottish Minister in 1992 designed to deter calls for devolution and later independence. And remember that GERS take figures as of now within the UK whereas does not take into account what revenues would be in an independent Scotland.

And compiled each year by the Scottish Government's own statisticians and each year (apart from a period in the 80's) clearly showing a deficit of revenue collected in Scotland v spend in Scotland.  

So what additional revenues would there be in an independent Scotland with a hard border between it and its largest (by some distance) trading partner?  Maybe we can put the additional revenues on the side of a bus?  

Of course they need to report within the constraint of GERS which is what Scotland's expenditure and revenue is within the UK and not as an independent country. If you are claiming those figures remain the same I am flabberghasted. All GERS tells us is being in this union is that it isn't working for Scotland.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

Polls are fine until you look at the sources - The Scotsman (staunchly pro-unionist), ITV (pro-Unionist) and such-like. The mandate was achieved by the pro-Independence parties who canvassed in the last GE on this and won the majority of seats.

Trailing by 2% is neither here nor there and lets remember where support for independence sat as prior to the 2014 indy ref being announced - they stood at 25 to 29% and ended up with 44.7%. Pro-independence therefore starting from a far healthier position.

There are reasons that No remains high in polls. There are a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who live here and no doubt get polled who have reasons to vote No for feeling cut off from their homeland. There are those that are petrified of change. The sort that were mortified at the thought of stuff such as decimalisation and such-like and fear change. Those that cling to a state that they've known all of their life and who have been brought up to swear the UK is the be all and end all when, if they opened their eyes, they'd see it really wasn't. As for your last point for the Yes side to get ahead it needs Scots to be braver and positive about an Independent Scotland and the possibilities that brings.

Ah the old classic, the polls are biased. The source of the poll is actually Comres. I'm not sure why you think they would trash their professional reputation to deliver wonky results. Only Scottish people were polled, apparently.

Of course pro-independence parties won the majority of seats at the last GE. FPTP favours regional parties like the SNP who can concentrate their vote into a handful of constituencies. Pro-independence parties actually only won a minority of the vote in the 2019 GE (SNP and Green = 46%; LIB/LAB/CON = 53%), but the SNP are hugely overrepresented in Westminster (as usual) as their 45% of votes in Scotland got them 81% of Scottish seats.

And the main reason why No remains high in the polls is because there's a lot of people who support the union. More than those who support leaving the union. I don't think patronising No voters will help. Maybe their eyes are open, and they're not petrified of change, they just prefer the UK?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:There are some sensible people out there who see the reasons people want independence and non-Scots too:-

https://twitter.com/YesScot/status/1542177179974393856?t=9UKOuF1r84VJAppHsed7pw&s=07

Are you inferring that anyone opposed to independence, or who thinks that the economic argument for independence has not been successfully made, is not sensible?  

I am inferring that there are people out there with the sense to see why Scots want independence and to be denied the chance to vote on it is wrong. Rabb done swell rubbishing the economic case yesterday.

I don't care what Raab says, he is a clueless f*ckwit whose confidence far outstrips his intelligence and competence.  Quick question for you.  

Post independence would you prefer a significant decrease in public spending or a significant increase in taxes in order to meet the economic requirements for joining the EU?

There needn't be any decrease in public spending. Scotland's taxes are currently being spent in billions on projects currently of no benefit whatsoever to Scotland - HS2 terminating no further north than Leeds, on a refurb of the Houses of Parliament and on a refurb of Buckingham Palace. Frees up billions to be spent within Scotland.

That's not correct and is based on a misreading of GERS which has been spread round on Twitter and jumped on by people who haven't read GERS.  

Ah yes good old GERS. A creation by a Tory Scottish Minister in 1992 designed to deter calls for devolution and later independence. And remember that GERS take figures as of now within the UK whereas does not take into account what revenues would be in an independent Scotland.

And compiled each year by the Scottish Government's own statisticians and each year (apart from a period in the 80's) clearly showing a deficit of revenue collected in Scotland v spend in Scotland.  

So what additional revenues would there be in an independent Scotland with a hard border between it and its largest (by some distance) trading partner?  Maybe we can put the additional revenues on the side of a bus?  

Of course they need to report within the constraint of GERS which is what Scotland's expenditure and revenue is within the UK and not as an independent country. If you are claiming those figures remain the same I am flabberghasted. All GERS tells us is being in this union is that it isn't working for Scotland.

So what additional revenues would there be?

CaledonianCraig wrote:

superflyweight wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

Polls are fine until you look at the sources - The Scotsman (staunchly pro-unionist), ITV (pro-Unionist) and such-like. The mandate was achieved by the pro-Independence parties who canvassed in the last GE on this and won the majority of seats.

Trailing by 2% is neither here nor there and lets remember where support for independence sat as prior to the 2014 indy ref being announced - they stood at 25 to 29% and ended up with 44.7%. Pro-independence therefore starting from a far healthier position.

There are reasons that No remains high in polls. There are a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who live here and no doubt get polled who have reasons to vote No for feeling cut off from their homeland. There are those that are petrified of change. The sort that were mortified at the thought of stuff such as decimalisation and such-like and fear change. Those that cling to a state that they've known all of their life and who have been brought up to swear the UK is the be all and end all when, if they opened their eyes, they'd see it really wasn't. As for your last point for the Yes side to get ahead it needs Scots to be braver and positive about an Independent Scotland and the possibilities that brings.

Nationalist exceptionalism in action, folks.  Anyone remember similar arguments being made in favour of Brexit?  

What are you gibbering about? Those points were all on why people continue to vote No in reply to Duty's post on why not more Yes's.

Yes, and you chose to highlight/blame people not born in Scotland and the poor misguided people who, unlike you and the other true believers, can't see the possibilities offered by independence from a successful trading bloc.

Sounds pretty familiar to me.

In fairness to SNP supporters...If Starmer can change his mind on all his ten pledges in two years..

Then the Scottish people can change their minds in 8 years..

Right ??

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:In fairness to SNP supporters...If Starmer can change his mind on all his ten pledges in two years..

Then the Scottish people can change their minds in 8 years..

Right ??

BINGO! I almost completely filled my card a few posts ago. All I needed was for Truss to shoehorn a Starmer whinge in there!

What's my prize?

Duty281 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Duty281 wrote:https://www.itv.com/news/border/2022-06-30/more-than-half-of-scots-do-not-want-indyref2-next-october-poll-finds

New poll shows that 53% of Scots don't want a referendum in October 2023, while 40% do. I wondered why the SNP don't seem to want to hold a referendum on holding a referendum for leaving the UK. If they can demonstrate there's a strong appetite for another referendum, it'll be harder to deny, but this may be the reason why...because there isn't an appetite.

The 'yes' side to leaving the UK continues to trail overall, behind by 44-46.  If the 'yes' side can't get ahead while this Tory government is approaching its nadir, when can they?

Polls are fine until you look at the sources - The Scotsman (staunchly pro-unionist), ITV (pro-Unionist) and such-like. The mandate was achieved by the pro-Independence parties who canvassed in the last GE on this and won the majority of seats.

Trailing by 2% is neither here nor there and lets remember where support for independence sat as prior to the 2014 indy ref being announced - they stood at 25 to 29% and ended up with 44.7%. Pro-independence therefore starting from a far healthier position.

There are reasons that No remains high in polls. There are a lot of English, Welsh and Northern Irish who live here and no doubt get polled who have reasons to vote No for feeling cut off from their homeland. There are those that are petrified of change. The sort that were mortified at the thought of stuff such as decimalisation and such-like and fear change. Those that cling to a state that they've known all of their life and who have been brought up to swear the UK is the be all and end all when, if they opened their eyes, they'd see it really wasn't. As for your last point for the Yes side to get ahead it needs Scots to be braver and positive about an Independent Scotland and the possibilities that brings.

Ah the old classic, the polls are biased. The source of the poll is actually Comres. I'm not sure why you think they would trash their professional reputation to deliver wonky results. Only Scottish people were polled, apparently.

Of course pro-independence parties won the majority of seats at the last GE. FPTP favours regional parties like the SNP who can concentrate their vote into a handful of constituencies. Pro-independence parties actually only won a minority of the vote in the 2019 GE (SNP and Green = 46%; LIB/LAB/CON = 53%), but the SNP are hugely overrepresented in Westminster (as usual) as their 45% of votes in Scotland got them 81% of Scottish seats.

And the main reason why No remains high in the polls is because there's a lot of people who support the union. More than those who support leaving the union. I don't think patronising No voters will help. Maybe their eyes are open, and they're not petrified of change, they just prefer the UK?

Pro Indy parties got the majority of votes in the Scottish GE aswell and we dont use FPTP.

My understanding is that the D'Hondt system used in Scottish elections makes it especially hard for any party to win an overall majority. So the Tories making a big deal about the SNP's failure to win an overall majority was dependent on ignorance of the difference between the systems used for election to Holyrood (and Cardiff Bay) and Westminster. So much of their success is dependent on ignorance, which is a major reason I hate them, to be frank. Knowledge is power, still.

So this Chris Pincher resigned from the whips' office once before, for making a pass at someone, and Johnson was warned not to rehire him, but he did, because he'd helped see off a rebellion against him?

Doesn't that just say it all about Johnson's priorities.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:So this Chris Pincher resigned from the whips' office once before, for making a pass at someone, and Johnson was warned not to rehire him, but he did, because he'd helped see off a rebellion against him?

Doesn't that just say it all about Johnson's priorities.

I think Johnsons got more things to worry about if the Private Eye story has any truth to it…

I don't even want to think about that

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I don't even want to think about that

There was a super twitter post about this, something along the lines of will a BJ in the FO finally make BJ FO