Wales International: games, squads, tournaments, chat - 2021/22

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A place to chat about everything ‘Wales’ going forward.

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First up: South Africa 6th November 2021

Wales: Johnny McNicholl; Louis Rees-Zammit, Jonathan Davies (capt), Nick Tompkins, Josh Adams; Dan Biggar, Tomos Williams; Rhys Carre, Ryan Elias, Tomas Francis, Will Rowlands, Adam Beard, Ellis Jenkins, Taine Basham, Aaron Wainwright.

Replacements: Bradley Roberts, Wyn Jones, WillGriff John, Ben Carter, Seb Davies, Gareth Davies, Gareth Anscombe, Liam Williams.

South Africa: Damian Willemse; Jesse Kriel, Lukhanyo Am, Damian de Allende, Makazole Mapimpi; Handre Pollard, Herschel Jantjies; Ox Nche, Bongi Mbonambi, Trevor Nyakane, Eben Etzebeth, Lood De Jager, Siya Kolisi (capt), Kwagga Smith, Duane Vermeulen.

Replacements: Malcolm Marx, Steven Kitshoff, Vincent Koch, Franco Mostert, Jasper Wiese, Cobus Reinach, Elton Jantjies, Frans Steyn.

So 4 fly halves are in the squad so that when Biggar and Sheedy head back to England in between match weeks, then the training in camp isn't affected. They are looking at Anscombe as the most likely player to cover 15 if needed.

Interestingly Scarlets played Liam Williams on the wing with McNicholl at fullback at the weekend. Add in LRZ and Adams and that's a pretty strong set of 4 back 3 players to choose from.

It's our midfield I'm worried about.

It's a strong back 3 but for me, LRZ is a starter as he brings something that many others cannot. Pivac is surely eyeing up Adams, Williams and McNicholl as the starters for Ireland.

The midfield is a big concern. We have lots of 12's and not many 13's, if any. I do think Scott Williams could play 13 better than the others and should have been there in place of JD2. I would have found a place for Ioan Lloyd in my squad, and he actually played 12 very well on the weekend up to his injury. I rate him much better than Sheedy. Watkin shouldn't have been near this squad for the past 2 years.

Elias' throwing is a worry too. Do we just gamble and go with Dewi Lake to make it a mostly Ospreys front 5? The back-row - three open-sides is a luxury and with that we'll struggle to get over the gainline against a firing Irish pack. I would have picked Shingler to play 6; it would bring that blend of youth and experience that Pivac likes to go on about...

mikey_dragon wrote:It's a strong back 3 but for me, LRZ is a starter as he brings something that many others cannot. Pivac is surely eyeing up Adams, Williams and McNicholl as the starters for Ireland.

The midfield is a big concern. We have lots of 12's and not many 13's, if any. I do think Scott Williams could play 13 better than the others and should have been there in place of JD2. I would have found a place for Ioan Lloyd in my squad, and he actually played 12 very well on the weekend up to his injury. I rate him much better than Sheedy. Watkin shouldn't have been near this squad for the past 2 years.

Elias' throwing is a worry too. Do we just gamble and go with Dewi Lake to make it a mostly Ospreys front 5? The back-row - three open-sides is a luxury and with that we'll struggle to get over the gainline against a firing Irish pack. I would have picked Shingler to play 6; it would bring that blend of youth and experience that Pivac likes to go on about...

Unfortunately I think Lake and Elias are very similar in that they are great in the loose, but both really struggle in the lineout, of the two I think Elias is slightly more consistent there.

Unfortunately I think Shingler's time has passed, with the lack of games the regions have been able to play, it hasn't really given players coming back from long term injuries any chance to build up momentum. Maybe a 6,7,8 of Wainwright, Jenkins and Ratti could work?

We've certainly been set back by the Regions hardly playing, and playing sh*te when they actually have played, but injured players who have played less than Shingler are in the squad. For Pivac to think Shingler is lacking game time this year and then pick someone who is yet to play this year doesn't make sense. I just think it would have been helpful to have him around. Does anyone know if we still have the 'Leadership Group'?

Yes I think that back-row could work, although I don't think Jenkins is as good as he used to be.

mikey_dragon wrote:We've certainly been set back by the Regions hardly playing, and playing sh*te when they actually have played, but injured players who have played less than Shingler are in the squad. For Pivac to think Shingler is lacking game time this year and then pick someone who is yet to play this year doesn't make sense. I just think it would have been helpful to have him around. Does anyone know if we still have the 'Leadership Group'?

Yes I think that back-row could work, although I don't think Jenkins is as good as he used to be.

Agreed, you can certainly see that both the Ospreys & Scarlets are struggling for match fitness, they both tailed off after 60 minutes this weekend to allow Sale & Bristol to pull away.

It would be some baptism of fire for Ratti to win his first cap in Dublin!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It would be some baptism of fire for Ratti to win his first cap in Dublin!

Yeah but it's Pivacs excuse for Wales shipping 60 points .

Quick tangent question - does anyone know if the Digital tickets have been released by the WRU yet?

I haven't got mine and I'm not sure whether it is just delayed due to the restrictions that were in place or if I should have them and need to get chasing!!!

mikey_dragon wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It would be some baptism of fire for Ratti to win his first cap in Dublin!

Yeah but it's Pivacs excuse for Wales shipping 60 points .

It's not a good enough excuse not to pick him, but talk about in at the deep end!

Afro wrote:Quick tangent question - does anyone know if the Digital tickets have been released by the WRU yet?

I haven't got mine and I'm not sure whether it is just delayed due to the restrictions that were in place or if I should have them and need to get chasing!!!

My ticket is available to view in the app but the QR code won't be available until 48 hours before kick off.

Oakdene wrote:

Afro wrote:Quick tangent question - does anyone know if the Digital tickets have been released by the WRU yet?

I haven't got mine and I'm not sure whether it is just delayed due to the restrictions that were in place or if I should have them and need to get chasing!!!

My ticket is available to view in the app but the QR code won't be available until 48 hours before kick off.

Thank you.

Think I need to get on to them as neither of mine arent even visible.

Ive still got the ticket from the Australia game showing, and nothing else

Wow, wouldn't have picked that centre pairing. Not overly convinced by the backrow either.

Just for reference

Wales: L Williams; McNicholl, Adams, Tompkins, Rees-Zammit; Biggar, T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, E Jenkins, Basham, Wainwright.

Replacements: Lake, G Thomas, D Lewis, S Davies, Moriarty, G Davies, Sheedy, Watkin.

Same old from Pivac. The guy limits the number of wingers and then puts one in the centre, with average Watkin on the bench. Idiot.

Wales: L Williams; McNicholl, Adams, Tompkins, Rees-Zammit; Biggar, T Williams; W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, E Jenkins, Basham, Wainwright.


We tried a similar back row in the AIs and a few of us commented at the time that it was too lightweight.  Mobile and decent in the loose, but will struggle to carry much in heavy traffic.  Individually, I like those 3 players but as a collective I don't think the balance is right.  Ellis Jenkins for me is a 7.  Basham is a 7.  Wainright is a very light 8.

On the centres.  I quite like the idea of Adams at centre, but only if it is to accommodate someone better than him at wing.  McNicholl for me is not better than Adams so we have weakened wing to strengthen centre.  I'm never a fan of doing that where you move a very good player from his normal position to try him somewhere and then bring in someone worse. Yes, we did it with North but that was because he was not in great form as a wing and we had Adams the form player forcing North to centre.  McNicholl is not terrible but for me is just a bit of a step down on Adams.

Front row.  Not a fan of Elias, but if Wyn Jones has regained his fitness and some of his pre-Lions scrummaging prowess then I like the look of the front row from a scrummaging point of view.  Decent size locks behind too who hopefully will add some ballast to the scrum.

The Oracle wrote:
We tried a similar back row in the AIs and a few of us commented at the time that it was too lightweight.  Mobile and decent in the loose, but will struggle to carry much in heavy traffic.  Individually, I like those 3 players but as a collective I don't think the balance is right.  Ellis Jenkins for me is a 7.  Basham is a 7.  Wainright is a very light 8.

Would probably play this backrow against Scotland next week, however. Similar to what England are doing this.

On the centres.  I quite like the idea of Adams at centre, but only if it is to accommodate someone better than him at wing.  McNicholl for me is not better than Adams so we have weakened wing to strengthen centre.  I'm never a fan of doing that where you move a very good player from his normal position to try him somewhere and then bring in someone worse. Yes, we did it with North but that was because he was not in great form as a wing and we had Adams the form player forcing North to centre.  McNicholl is not terrible but for me is just a bit of a step down on Adams.

I like the idea of Adams as a 13, but would probably have had Davies at 12 for this, just to offer a bit more defensively than I believe Tompkins will. I am not convinced by McNicholl defensively, so think we could be quite lightweight in effect, with LRZ, inexperienced centre partnership and McNicholl.

Agree on the front five.

RiscaGame wrote:

The Oracle wrote:
We tried a similar back row in the AIs and a few of us commented at the time that it was too lightweight.  Mobile and decent in the loose, but will struggle to carry much in heavy traffic.  Individually, I like those 3 players but as a collective I don't think the balance is right.  Ellis Jenkins for me is a 7.  Basham is a 7.  Wainright is a very light 8.

Would probably play this backrow against Scotland next week, however. Similar to what England are doing this.

On the centres.  I quite like the idea of Adams at centre, but only if it is to accommodate someone better than him at wing.  McNicholl for me is not better than Adams so we have weakened wing to strengthen centre.  I'm never a fan of doing that where you move a very good player from his normal position to try him somewhere and then bring in someone worse. Yes, we did it with North but that was because he was not in great form as a wing and we had Adams the form player forcing North to centre.  McNicholl is not terrible but for me is just a bit of a step down on Adams.

I like the idea of Adams as a 13, but would probably have had Davies at 12 for this, just to offer a bit more defensively than I believe Tompkins will. I am not convinced by McNicholl defensively, so think we could be quite lightweight in effect, with LRZ, inexperienced centre partnership and McNicholl.

Agree on the front five.

If that’s the way the game is going then I’m all for it! Would be great for Wales to be at the forefront of a new trend in rugby with smaller more mobile back rows, rather than always playing catch up! However, are we doing it by choice or just who is fit and available? I still look at the likes of South Africa and worry that our small back row will be eaten alive! Although I appreciate they’re not in the 6N so it’s a bit of a moot point.

It would be great if we were doing it by choice, but it is injury. I imagine Navidi would always start (if fit) for one. I worry about our small back row being eaten alive this weekend, tbh.

Match thread here: https://www.606v2.com/t70536-ireland-v-wales-match-thread

What an absolute appalling decision to put Josh Adams in the center, you mean to tell me, that between the regions, and the players in England, there is not a decent center available ?

Ashley Beck is have a great season with Worcester, is John Williams injured ? Come on.

Isn't John Williams a composer?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Isn't John Williams a composer?

Johnny Williams then.

LordDowlais wrote:What an absolute appalling decision to put Josh Adams in the center, you mean to tell me, that between the regions, and the players in England, there is not a decent center available ?

Ashley Beck is have a great season with Worcester, is John Williams injured ? Come on.

George North?

LordDowlais wrote:What an absolute appalling decision to put Josh Adams in the center, you mean to tell me, that between the regions, and the players in England, there is not a decent center available ?

Ashley Beck is have a great season with Worcester, is John Williams injured ? Come on.

To answer your first question, no there isn’t a decent (outside) centre available. I remember raising this point a while back and you rushed in telling us how there was and alluded to Owen Watkin being one of them. He literally has an epic stinker for Ospreys the following day! He is such a limited player these days, I’m surprised he (and Luke Morgan, Dan Evans) can even make the Ospreys team. I’m not even going to bother trying to understand why Pivac picks him and also leaves out guys like Lane and Holmes.

I think Adams will do well at centre, my gripe is with the selections in the squad and 23 as per, but there’s so much hypocritical sh’t our coach gets up to, I just can’t be bothered to sit here and write it. Not really sure about Beck but then again, he’s another 12 where we seem to have an abundance of players. Johnny Williams (I think his birth name is actually John) is injured again.

Ireland by 60.

Beck - no idea how he in particular is doing but Warriors have only won 3 out of 13 games this season.

He was an average international anyway.

The U20s getting an absolute hammering by Ireland U20s. 41-0 after 50 mins. Not a great start to Byron Hayward’s 2nd stint with the U20s. Ireland just look so much more slick than Wales. A bit like watching Leinster backs then watching Dragons’ backs!

Just watching the Ire v Wal U20's...

Worryingly for Wales theyve just been bullied in every aspect, there is a notable size difference between the teams, so I went to check ages and the Welsh team isn't that young a team for U20's, some of those boys look 12 years old.

On a side note this referee (Don't know her name) is the most inexperienced and naive i've ever seen at this level. Her team work is good, her positioning poor, but her view of the breakdown is nothing short of crazy. The Irish boys have her in their back pocket at the breakdown, as do the crowd seemingly (although I doubt thats as much as a factore as it appears on TV).

Miaow

The Oracle wrote:The U20s getting an absolute hammering by Ireland U20s.  41-0 after 50 mins. Not a great start to Byron Hayward’s 2nd stint with the U20s.  Ireland just look so much more slick than Wales.  A bit like watching Leinster backs then watching Dragons’ backs!

What did you expect it’s Byron Hayward. He needs to walk away and the WRU board need to take a good, hard look at themselves… or even better walk away with Hayward. These are the same people who overprice the merchandise and sell £100 tickets. Disgusting.

Dirtydave wrote:Just watching the Ire v Wal U20's...

Worryingly for Wales theyve just been bullied in every aspect, there is a notable size difference between the teams, so I went to check ages and the Welsh team isn't that young a team for U20's, some of those boys look 12 years old.

On a side note this referee (Don't know her name) is the most inexperienced and naive i've ever seen at this level. Her team work is good, her positioning poor, but her view of the breakdown is nothing short of crazy. The Irish boys have her in their back pocket at the breakdown, as do the crowd seemingly (although I doubt thats as much as a factore as it appears on TV).

You can add the assistant refs to that as well. I really hope these are being picked on merit and they aren't just ticking boxes here. They are blessed that Ireland were so dominant they didn't affect the result.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

Dirtydave wrote:Just watching the Ire v Wal U20's...

Worryingly for Wales theyve just been bullied in every aspect, there is a notable size difference between the teams, so I went to check ages and the Welsh team isn't that young a team for U20's, some of those boys look 12 years old.

On a side note this referee (Don't know her name) is the most inexperienced and naive i've ever seen at this level. Her team work is good, her positioning poor, but her view of the breakdown is nothing short of crazy. The Irish boys have her in their back pocket at the breakdown, as do the crowd seemingly (although I doubt thats as much as a factore as it appears on TV).

You can add the assistant refs to that as well. I really hope these are being picked on merit and they aren't just ticking boxes here. They are blessed that Ireland were so dominant they didn't affect the result.

That was my initial thought too, Ireland were in total control from around 10 mins in, which might have actually compounded the ref teams problems, because they did then allow Ireland Carte Blanche at the breakdown. The penalty count at the breakdown was about 13-1 in Irelands favours, and overall penalty count was 18-3 (ish).

I knew there was going to be an issue on the first KO, she didn't communicate to the Welsh 10 why she was holding him up, then at the first scrum, 3 resets because of the Welsh hookers foot placement.

Infact for the first Irish try there was arguably a headbut, then an open hand punch (slap?) in retaliation, and it wasn't even reviewed.

As I said, her team work, comms with her team, and general decisions made in that respect were good, but geez the breakdown was a lottery, and there was a lot of confusion around her decisions.

At one point in the 2nd half the Welsh 4 attached to the maul had worked his way through, openly asked if he was ok to play the ball carrier, she agreed he was fine then when he made the tackle she penalised him. Live I couldn't believe what happened to rewound the tape, she audibly says 'your good' and makes a nodding gesture with her head.

But as you say, the result was never in question, inexperienced ref teams need larger stages to perform on, and theyre not always ready, the fact that the result was never in question means we can just write this off as a difficult day at the office, i'm sure she'll learn from it.

This is great. All true.

If only the Wail would go all out like this. Question the WRU. Nobody in a position (ie WOL) will. All aboard the gravy train.

https://t.co/lXvMDMf1ID

That’s a cracking read, fair play. Depressing also. But something I wholeheartedly agree with. I know we Welsh fans bang on about the WRU and Welsh rugby problems, and to outsiders it now just looks like moaning and blaming everything apart from the players and clubs. But read this and you get an idea for the problems the clubs have. You could write a book on WRU c0ck ups and shambolic episodes. They really are an embarrassment. I’d love the union bigwigs of Ireland or England to take a forensic view of the WRU and feedback their thoughts. I think there would be a lot of raised eyebrows and head in hands moments. Just awful. Is there any other rugby nation with the peaks and troughs that Wales have? We just seem incapable of building on anything and maintaining any sort of consistency on or off the field.

Regards the players that was missing for Wales in the opening game, are any of them due back at all this 6nations? or are they totally out of the 6nations aii together?

I think they said Faletau and North were potentials. Possible AWJ who is ahead of schedule I think. But they haven’t played any rugby at all for so long I think it would be a stretch to expect them to just go straight back into international rugby. Need to prove fitness and form for club first for me.

So anyway, there's chat about Jac Morgan getting his first cap Vs Scotland, and it would be deserved. My question is at the expense of who? Ellis Jenkins surely. I feel that Wainwright and Basham haven't had had a bad game in their last 5 for Wales, with the latter consistently one of our top performers. Given we were lacking solid carriers, shouldn't it be James Ratti who is in contention instead? Or would this make Pivac appear to be smart?

The article that WOL created, is basically alluding to this team that somebody on Twitter posted earlier.

Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, Morgan, Basham, Moriarty, Williams, Biggar, LRZ, Tompkins, Adams, Cuthbert, Williams

Wouldn’t surprise me if Pivac did do something like that.

Yes, I just read something about Pivac thinking of starting Jac Morgan with Moriarty to 8. Hell of a time to chuck a young guy in. And he doesn’t seem the biggest of guys to me so not sure he’s a 6 at international level.

Not sure about some of the backs selections. Scotland’s backs are great at creating and using space. Last thing we need is Adam’s out of position again. Just put in a real centre. Adams may be a centre in the future, but let’s see him shine there at club level first.

Is Pivac the new tombola man?!

If we pick Adams at 13 again, the Scots will be over the moon.

Here’s the team that voters picked on BBC. I guess it goes on an accumulation of votes in each position? Anyway:

L Williams
LZR
JD2
Halaholo
Adams
Biggar
T Williams

W Jones
Elias
Francis
Beard
Rowlands
Jenkins
Basham
Moriarty

Faletau is back in the squad. He is a great player to have around, but we really didn't need another No8. He is acting as a replacement for a lock/6 hybrid - we could have done with sourcing another one.

Is it not too early for Faletau to come back into the international game. Especially a big game like the game against England?

I don't know if he'll make the 23, but he probably will knowing Pivac. I've been hoping to see Ratti get his debut, it looks like he'll have to wait for a bench spot against Italy.

You wouldnt want him going up against well prepared players like Launchberry and Tuilagi

Not necessarily international news, but Patchell resigning with Scarlets is good news. I’ve always felt he’s had the attributes to be a real international 10, although his is 28 now.

The guy who has posted Welsh teams thus far, has come up with this. Looks like (if he’s proven correct again), that we are going for a big side.

L Williams, Cuthbert, J Davies, Watkin, Adams, Biggar, T Williams

W Jones, Elias, Francis, Rowlands, Beard, S Davies, Navidi, Faletau

Interesting

Tinkering about a lot has never really been successful when other teams have done it. Players don’t get a chance to get a good run of games under their belts and players can’t redeem themselves if they have a poor performance. That team above, for example, punishes Basham (in a way) for being one of our better players so far this 6N. Replaced by Navidi who I rate but who looked way off the pace the other night. Some will call it horses for courses but I just think it’s a coach who doesn’t know how he wants to play or who his best team is. Seb Davies at 6? Nah. It looks like a ‘damage limitation’ sort of pick, which in itself is a negative approach to the France match, but is he really that good that he has to be brought in to stop the French?

I have a feeling we won’t see Francis either after the uproar from the medical profession. They’re already calling it negligence and saying there’s no way he should be playing. Reckon Wales would be in for a lot of sh*t if we select him.