Scotland 2022 summer tour

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Scotland 2022 Six Nations Lookahead

A place to discuss the rollercoaster of dark horse conversation and sheer despair. Somewhere in-between, someone will go off on a mild tangent.

Schedule
5th Feb - England (H)
12th Feb - Wales (A)
26th Feb - France (H)
12th March - Italy (A)
19th March - Ireland (A)

Scotland's recent performances
2021: 4th (3 wins, same as 2nd)
2020: 4th (3 wins, same points as 3rd)
2019: 5th (1 win, 1 draw)
2018: 3rd (3 wins, same as 2nd)
2017: 4th (3 wins, same points as 2nd)

Guys guys guys.

Calm down. It’s all part of a plan

Other than jimbo, who else is available to take over? Answer, no one

So where does this leave us?

Easy. Toonie takes us to the World Cup which may or may not be an unmitigated disaster. But really what difference does it make going out in the group stages with Toonie compared to going out with some other fella that’s rocked up with only a year with the team???

Then comes the master stroke. After the World Cup, Toonie goes his way, we get Pat Lam as our new gaffer.

After the world cup, all bets are off.

There is going to be a right old merry-go-round og international coaching changes. Hard to see Toonie, Pivac or Jones staying on however their teams do and Rennie, Rassie and Foster are toast unless their teams win it.

It will be hold on to your hsts times and you would expect the smart unions to do some feeling out ahead of time.

Fully agree with what has been said.

I have been in Florence and it was disappointing to be struggling to find a bar (in central admittedly) to watch the Italy vs Wales game. It shows what Wales are at the minute and that loss to them hurt badly. Not seen the Ireland game and fairly sure I don't need to bother watching it.

How on earth the six were not dropped is beyond me. All the selection issues around the centres (dropping Johnson for Tuipulotu, who it turns out is not ready for international rugby), second row (a semi-injured Jonny Gray over Cummings and Skinner), FH (why not Hastings and Thompson over Kinghorn?) and SH (White was able to dispel naysayers but why did Vellacott only get 5 minutes?). Discipline was dreadful, the set-piece has taken a step back and the patience of our attack is gone.

Townsend should go but we can't afford it and it makes no sense in terms of timing. There will be a clear-out at end of 2023 of the coaches for hopefully a Dan McFarland type and not Dean Richards or Dai Young.

As for players, I really hope we drop all six who went off drinking and those that were on the Lions tour (long season). Pin the captaincy on Ritchie if fit and try to build depth with Ashman, any TH with pedigree, battle test Hodgson/AN Other, see if Bradbury is an answer off the bench, get minutes under the belt of White/Vellacott/Hastings/Thompson, give Hutchinson/McLean/Rowe/Roebuck genuine shots at the jerseys.

So. What’s happening now? Anything good on tele?

Sure the 6ns was crap for us but at least it was international rugby

tigertattie wrote:So. What’s happening now? Anything good on tele?

Sure the 6ns was crap for us but at least it was international rugby

Well there is always Edinburgh to watch down in SA - that might be fun

Well their is alll ways the Womens 6ns which starts on saturday.

I do believe it is England v Scotland to start with.

majesticimperialman wrote:Well their is alll ways the Womens 6ns which starts on saturday.

I do believe it is England v Scotland to start with.

Jeezo I was looking for something to cheer me up.

tigertattie wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Well their is alll ways the Womens 6ns which starts on saturday.

I do believe it is England v Scotland to start with.

Jeezo I was looking for something to cheer me up.

They might score a try?

Well to find a positive...

Scottish Player of the 6N - Darcy Graham
Best Newcomer - Rory Darge
Best Defender - Hamish Watson
Turnover King - Rory Darge
Best Forward - Schoeman
Slickest play - Hogg/Graham/White try vs England
Best Carry - Schoeman vs Ireland
Moment of the 6N - White and Tuipilotu lifting the Calcutta Cup

What would you choose? Any additional accolades?

And on a negative note...

Best non-tackler: Blair, do you fancy a sleepy cuddle?, Kinghorn
Best butcher of try scoring opportunities: Stuart, I'll not miss this, Hogg.

Best consumer of pies: Finn Russell
Most crushing disappointment: Finn Russell
Is he really from Ayr award?: Finn Russell

Where the hell are you award? Jointly held by Hutchinson, Redpath and Jones (Huw, not Lee....)

The 'meatball drop goal hero' formerly the ' Dan's mutton chop uprights' award is held for the 7th year running by Meatball

NeilyBroon wrote:The 'meatball drop goal hero' formerly the ' Dan's mutton chop uprights' award is held for the 7th year running by Meatball

That actually might be passed on to Finn as well. Did he not make a howler of an attempt agsinst Wales?

Laziest Run Back to defend your own terrible kick award - Finn Russell
The Teflon Cup for rule breaking - Finn Russell
The Teflon Cup for missed opportunities -Hogg
The Teflon Cup for glossing over poor games - Townsend

BigGee wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:The 'meatball drop goal hero' formerly the ' Dan's mutton chop uprights' award is held for the 7th year running by Meatball

That actually might be passed on to Finn as well. Did he not make a howler of an attempt agsinst Wales?

Exactly, he failed the hero test!

A funny man wrote:So on to Wales. Wales, as everyone now realises, are terrible at rugby. If there are still any who feel it unfair to label their success last year as a Jam Slam, 2022 has some notes for you. And still, Scotland couldn’t rise to the occasion in Cardiff. Weeks later, even Italy would.
...
Quite how Kyle Steyn got two games in a row on the wing is a mystery, but it seems unlikely to happen again given how badly he played in them.
...
Too harsh? Perhaps but we need to be exactingly clear on this. This was Scotland’s worst Six Nations performance in years and the only reason they weren’t dead last is because there are two teams in the world called Italy and Wales. Wales, you’ll recall, are terrible at rugby.
...
But to paraphrase Dylan Hartley, it’s not the 80s anymore. This is not an amateur game. It is a professional sport. This team is staggeringly unprofessional and either it’s the head coach’s fault for allowing that to happen, or simply his responsibility to fix it. In either case, public scrutiny for once is warranted.

Scotland can be better than this, yes. But the stark truth is that right now they are not, and there have been no signs of anything but regression. The poor results this year are a direct reflection of the poor performances Scotland have turned in. This is a shell of the squad that was, and the squad that was didn’t win enough when it mattered either.

Some absolute zingers in there.

To be fair, Steyn really was murder.

Steyn was mince. Seemed such a solid and safe option based on Glasgow performances, but just looked so ponderous at this level. I suppose that when you play with McDowall and Meatball at club level, it's possible to look faster than you actually are.

MacLean and Blain look like much better long term options, thankfully.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Steyn was mince. Seemed such a solid and safe option based on Glasgow performances, but just looked so ponderous at this level. I suppose that when you play with McDowall and Meatball at club level, it's possible to look faster than you actually are.

MacLean and Blain look like much better long term options, thankfully.

Is Blain injured, not seen a peep of him this season?

BigGee wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:Steyn was mince. Seemed such a solid and safe option based on Glasgow performances, but just looked so ponderous at this level. I suppose that when you play with McDowall and Meatball at club level, it's possible to look faster than you actually are.

MacLean and Blain look like much better long term options, thankfully.

Is Blain injured, not seen a peep of him this season?

Pass. I can only assume so, because he hasn't put a foot wrong when given the chance. Whilst I rate all three, it isn't ideal to have three non Scots blocking the back three of the better of one of two pro sides this nation has.

Steyn was on good form in October, and seemed to suffer a loss of form following being dropped after scoring 4 tries against Tonga. Hmmm?
Has Blain been picked much recently? I don't recall any write ups of late?
I also don't know what's happened to Chamberlain? He was on fire 2 years ago, Cockers signed him, and he appears to have fallen into an abyss.
'We' seem to have done a great job of really screwing up some decent young prospects.

Anglobraveheart wrote:Steyn was on good form in October, and seemed to suffer a loss of form following being dropped after scoring 4 tries against Tonga. Hmmm?
Has Blain been picked much recently? I don't recall any write ups of late?
I also don't know what's happened to Chamberlain? He was on fire 2 years ago, Cockers signed him, and he appears to have fallen into an abyss.
'We' seem to have done a great job of really screwing up some decent young prospects.

Chamberlain has been overtaken by the next future world class fly half. The kinghorn himself.

Being kept out of the squad by VdW and Savala isn't much of a ringing endorsement! He'd have been as well staying at Bristol it seems!

I don't think Blain has been injured, he's just not getting picked. Blair has stuck with the Argentinians generally.

The Argentinians have been fantastic as well so don't blame him.

I wonder if we'll see Rowe again? Not even a bench spot for him this 6N. Perhaps Townsend was reluctant to try him out after things went downhill from Cardiff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60863536

Hmm... Baxter seems to be backing Hogg in all this. Still doesn't justify the 3 on 1 and subsequent post match car crash of a press conference. And from what I heard someone did miss training?

NeilyBroon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60863536

Hmm... Baxter seems to be backing Hogg in all this. Still doesn't justify the 3 on 1. And from what I heard someone did miss training?

Russell missed the recovery day session the day after.

RDW wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60863536

Hmm... Baxter seems to be backing Hogg in all this. Still doesn't justify the 3 on 1. And from what I heard someone did miss training?

Russell missed the recovery day session the day after.

Sorry, but that's a pattern of ignoring instructions now, isn't it?

Why should anyone put up with that? If that's true, it makes Townsend look like a fool.

As the philosopher Baracus says, I pity the fool.

NeilyBroon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60863536

Hmm... Baxter seems to be backing Hogg in all this. Still doesn't justify the 3 on 1 and subsequent post match car crash of a press conference. And from what I heard someone did miss training?

So Hoggy grassed up his Work Dad to his favourite uncle? Not a good look.

Fight your own battles, Stuarty Boy.

George Carlin wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60863536

Hmm... Baxter seems to be backing Hogg in all this. Still doesn't justify the 3 on 1 and subsequent post match car crash of a press conference. And from what I heard someone did miss training?

So Hoggy grassed up his Work Dad to his favourite uncle? Not a good look.

Fight your own battles, Stuarty Boy.

He’s losing credibility with me. A talented rugby player but isn’t showing the right behaviours for me. Especially behaviours of a captain.

I’d say he needs to go to Hawick and get himself grounded but he’s likely to get his ego stroked there

tigertattie wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

NeilyBroon wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60863536

Hmm... Baxter seems to be backing Hogg in all this. Still doesn't justify the 3 on 1 and subsequent post match car crash of a press conference. And from what I heard someone did miss training?

So Hoggy grassed up his Work Dad to his favourite uncle? Not a good look.

Fight your own battles, Stuarty Boy.

He’s losing credibility with me. A talented rugby player but isn’t showing the right behaviours for me. Especially behaviours of a captain.

I’d say he needs to go to Hawick and get himself grounded but he’s likely to get his ego stroked there

Charity work in East Kilbride?

Baxter has forgotten more about coaching than Townsend ever has learned. I would believe Baxter everytime on stuff like this

Well, didn’t think the womens 6ns would make for positive viewing and I was right.

It’s nothing against the women playing, up against a fully professional outfit who have taken all the learnings from the mens professional setup. Can’t be very motivating playing in that

Aye - womens rugby has a huge divide in it between fully pro sides and at best semi pro

ALL though the Scottish women got smashed today by an England side who did not  have a very good start( a bit rusty) I actually think they (Scotland) did not play that bad. They just did not get the penatration  in to the England half.

Atleast Scotland have qualified for the RWC. that a lone should make you a proud Scotsperson.

Aside from the rest of your riddle Madge, how can you say England women could be rusty? They’re fully pro. Scotland aren’t.

It’s simple rugby knowledge what happened FFS.

I do believe this was the first game England had
together since last year. that is why there was a few handling errors at the start.

majesticimperialman wrote:ALL though the Scottish women got smashed today by an England side who did not  have a very good start( a bit rusty) I actually think they (Scotland) did not play that bad. They just did not get the penatration  in to the England half.

Atleast Scotland have qualified for the RWC. that a lone should make you a proud Scotsperson.

I agree apart from part of being a proud Scotsman anyway. Scoreline didn't reflect how well Scotland played, England were always going to win that but some handling errors and general rustiness as you say didn't help.
Scotland played recently in WC qualifiers, England not played together since 2021.

Anyway, I enjoyed the game and I'm a fan of both mens and womens rugby and the fact the other unions are going pro can only help standard across the board.

Apparently the Glasgow attack coach has now chimed in saying the Glasgow players involved on the Whynot 6 also didn't think they were breaking any rules.

What a mess!

Here is Mark Palmer's take on things in the Sunday Times.

Undserstandable that the pro team coaches are trying to stand up for their players, but they may better have stayed quiet as it is only likely to pour petrol on the bonfire.

My own view is that their are plenty of reasons for Hoggy not to be captain, I don't think he is doing a very good job of it and it seems to be effecting his own game. The drink up was just the straw that broke the camels back and if he could not see how that would be perceived, then he definitely should not be in the role.



Gregor Townsend could certainly have been more forthright when asked last Sunday whether Stuart Hogg would continue as Scotland captain. “Stuart is our captain just now,” said the head coach, less than 24 hours after yet another Six Nations campaign concluded amid defeat and recrimination. “He led the team yesterday [against Ireland]. It’s a long time until our next tournament.

“He’s been our captain for the last couple of years. We’ll have to reflect on everything. It’s not something we’re thinking about now as it’s a long while until we play our next game.”

Just in case you wandered into the imperial fora after Scotland’s win in Rome two weeks ago and have been hanging out in the Temple of Peace (ha!) ever since, the question about the captaincy — and oh so many others — has arisen in the wake of an outing to an Edinburgh drinking den late that same night.


Six Scotland players, led — if that is the right word — by Hogg, left the team hotel on the outskirts of the city and made their way into town, where they were seen propping up the bar in a popular establishment, at least until a phone call from Townsend encouraged them to beat a hasty retreat.

Yet nine days after the news of that ill-fated expedition, many of the key facts are still to be established. Most crucially, we still don’t know if the players (Finn Russell, Ali Price, Darcy Graham, Sam Johnson and Sione Tuipulotu were the others) went against explicit instructions from Townsend to remain at the hotel, or if they ignored a player-agreed protocol to leave any night out until after the final game in Dublin.



In the course of a shabby and disastrously pitched press conference straight after the Ireland game, I twice asked Townsend to clarify what, if any, rule had been broken. Twice he refused. Hogg would say only that he had apologised to team-mates and staff over an incident that would “hurt” him for “a long, long time”.

Since then, Rob Baxter, Hogg’s director of rugby at Exeter Chiefs, has played down the affair, saying that the full back had been the victim of “a little bit of ambiguity” and that the incident had been “very minor”. Baxter continued: “People are trying to make out there has been a clear breach of team rules but there’s not been. It was one of those things, sometimes it can happen, but it all got cleared up very quickly. It’s not like anyone’s gone out and got drunk and got into a fight, or come back at six o’clock in the morning or missed training.”

It is unclear whether Hogg disobeyed Townsend’s orders during his night out in EdinburghIt is unclear whether Hogg disobeyed Townsend’s orders during his night out in Edinburgh
It is unclear whether Hogg disobeyed Townsend’s orders during his night out in Edinburgh
INPHO
This interpretation tallied with that of Nigel Carolan, the Glasgow attack coach, when asked about potential repercussions for the three Warriors, Price, Johnson and Tuipulotu. “The lads certainly didn’t think they were doing anything which was overly outside the rules,” he said. “But I’m not sure how it escalated.”

If Townsend really is minded to take the captaincy from Hogg, it will be because he feels massively let down. But that is precisely what he would be doing to the player were he to invoke the punishment without explaining the crime.




It is easy to say that these things should remain as part of in-house “family” discussions, as Townsend himself put it. Easy and wrong, certainly when it comes to a role of such national importance and the possibility of stripping a generational talent of a position that he cherishes.

Presented with the evidence, it may be that the public gallery ends up agreeing with Townsend that the punishment fits the crime. Or it may be decided that he is throwing the captain under the bus to deflect from his own failings in another underwhelming campaign.

Either way, the Scottish rugby community deserves to be told what happened. If the whole thing was essentially a misunderstanding, fine. If it was a conscious rule breach, a challenge to Townsend’s authority, then it is indeed potentially unforgivable.

Sadly, on the horizon is the perfect opportunity for the sort of fudge in which the SRU tends to excel. Given his Lions commitments last summer, Hogg may be excused Scotland’s summer trip to South America, meaning that the whole thing could be put off until the autumn.



Wouldn’t it be great if, for once, instead of endless obfuscation, arrogance and innuendo, the union fronted up and showed themselves to be accountable to those who invest so much time, money and emotional energy in their rag-tag bunch of consistently average teams?

If Hogg is to be hanged, the SRU must at least explain whether it is for a sheep or a lamb.

What an absolute farce this whole thing has become. The worst part is for me (and Palmer touches on this) that it detracts from the real issues in the Scotland camp with performance and morale.

Even if you look at Edinburgh and Glasgow, two satellite teams of the national squad, the players just looked happier playing and knew what they were doing with varying levels of success yes, but structure nonetheless. So why do they go to Scotland camp and run out onto the pitch looking like they've been spinning on the teacups for two hours?

The problem for me is obviously twofold. A coach without the respect of his players and out of form prima Donnas running the show. We need someone new to come in and stir things up and knock a few heads together.

Totally agree NB. Several players clearly believe their own hype, in combination with Toonie apparently having lost the dressing room somewhat. What is clear is that the players are almost all performing better in their club jerseys, which is a worry.

Not sure what the answer is. I'm not sure sacking Toonie at this stage is the right way forward, but something needs to change. Problem is that we're not a nation that can jettison talented players without it really hurting us.

if the players play better for their clubs then its a coaching issue. I lay all the blame at Townsend's door. He should be getting the best out of these players with a game plan to suit them

Russell, Hogg are not prima donnas at their clubs. Can you imagine Baxter ( IMO the best coach around) sending out such an ill prepared team? He even dropped Hogg for some important games but still clearly has Hoggs respect

I actually think Hogg's time in Exeter has a lot to do with what's been happening, and it's fair to point out that players look happier at the clubs just now - and not just Edinburgh and Glasgow.

Exeter's MO is to be a fully inclusion club who puts a huge amount of emphasis on team morale and bonding - i.e. team socials and getting pished, with a work hard/play hard culture. By all accounts Hoggy loves a social and a drink, which is fine, and he's certainly found a willing home at the Chiefs. This will be having a huge influence on how he views life as a professional rugby player. Baxter defends his players to a hilt am did course wouldn't have seen anything wrong in players going out for a 'few beers' when there's a rest day the next day. This probably happens every week at his club.

Something else to add into the mix is that Hogg, Russell and Price are clearly very close mates.

So the picture that has been painted in my head is that the 3 mates wanted to celebrate Price's 50th cap and got a few others involved too. Hoggy, with his Exeter influence, was all keen for it given how important he sees team bonding (getting pished).

Where this majorly fell down however is there's been a big breakdown at some point in what was agreed as a playing and coaching group. How could they have been in a situation where it wasn't clear if they were allowed to go out or not? Particularly given what happened with Finn 2 years ago. Combine this with the backdrop of Covid and the general on pitch poor performances and it really has been a sorry mess.

So I'm very much not pinning this all on Toony - he's a big part of what's happened but you can't ignore the personal response in all this from the players, and the most senior players in the squad at that.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Totally agree NB. Several players clearly believe their own hype, in combination with Toonie apparently having lost the dressing room somewhat. What is clear is that the players are almost all performing better in their club jerseys, which is a worry.

Not sure what the answer is. I'm not sure sacking Toonie at this stage is the right way forward, but something needs to change. Problem is that we're not a nation that can jettison talented players without it really hurting us.

I think the thing is what will we lose at this point from chucking toonie?

England are starting to look in earnest, Wales certainly will be. Why not strike now while the market is quiet, get someone in place by autumn, gives us a year to settle before the WC. Either way we'll be unsettled, there's clearly a cultural clash in camp that is causing widespread problems. Quickest fixes are dropping Hogg, Finn and Toonie.

But realistically, who would we get now?

What about Big Jim Hamilton?

BigGee wrote:But realistically, who would we get now?

That's the thing - get a sub-optimal replacement now (/ pay a lot of money to release someone) or wait a year and get the best candidate when lots of coaches will be looking for a new job.

Yeah, that's my feeling to.

We are stuck atm

Our best option is to go on tour without the prima donnas and try and try and blood some players for the future and improve the culture.

We are currently between a rock and a hard place.

If mallinder is sensible, he'll already have a few earmarked.

I'm not convinced we'll get any better ones next year.

It's all a big jigsaw puzzle international coaching jobs. Various other bits have to be in place first before you get your bits in place.

Scott Robertson is possibly the king piece in the puzzle, but he really wants the NZ job, that he will only get if they don't win the WC.

England have now said the only want an English coach next time, which will the the job they would all prefer.

Ireland look settled, but could easily fold if they go out at group stages agsin!

Wales are in a similar position to Scotland but the politics of Welsh rugby are such that many good candidates are scared off. It would take an exception ciach, the calibre of Gatland to pull it off for them.

We may be better looking for an up and coming man like MacFarland. I imagine he might not feel he is done with Ulster yet though and may prefer the clean slate of a post WC cup period, when senior players will walk away and give the chance to mould his iwn team!