English 6 Nations

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/05/six-nations-rugby-covid-rob-baxter

A potential answer to a potential problem. Baxter has said that if there is a risk of cancellations or playing in front of 1 man and his dog you may as well play all the games in England.

I suppose an interesting suggestion. If they could agree a slice of revenue from whichever grounds would host along with some teams giving up home advantage would people want to see this? It doesn't reduce the risk at all, merely increases it surely, gives England an advantage. It's unlikely the Government will bring in further restrictions as their hands are tied by the back benchers so reduces the risk of last minute changes. Just a big melting pot of cross contamination.


'Rob Baxter, Exeter’s director of rugby, believes that playing this season’s Six Nations in one country has “got to be better than cancelling it”.

The tournament is due to kick off in Dublin and Edinburgh on 5 February but currently finds itself shrouded in uncertainty. Under current Welsh Government restrictions imposed due to the pandemic and, specifically, the omicron variant, Wales would have to play scheduled home games against Scotland, France and Italy behind closed doors. Scotland are in a similar position for games at Murrayfield, while it has been reported that Wales could consider moving their home against Scotland, France and Italy to England.

Financial implications of behind-closed-doors home games for the Welsh Rugby Union would be significant. They faced an identical situation for last season’s tournament, with the shutters being down for matches against Ireland and England. Full crowds were, however, allowed at the Principality Stadium for Wales’ recent Autumn Nations Series before fresh restrictions took effect from Boxing Day.

Capacity crowds are currently allowed in England, provided spectators can prove full vaccination status or provide a negative lateral flow test. Against such a backdrop, playing the whole competition – it takes place across five weekends between early February and mid-March – in one country with permitted crowds has also been mooted in some quarters.

“The whole beauty of the Six Nations has been that change of environment, that change of weather conditions, going to play in Scotland, Wales, Ireland – those are the great challenges,” said Baxter. “That’s what makes the Six Nations such a great competition to win. You’ve seen French teams in that one week they can beat anyone in the world in Paris, and then the next week it doesn’t go quite so well in Cardiff. That’s the beauty of the tournament, that’s what from a rugby perspective I am sure we would all want to see happen.

“That said, we can’t all sit here and pretend the world is in an ideal place at the moment. For the national bodies, their responsibility goes beyond the professional sport, it goes right down to grassroots rugby, so if playing the tournament provides a level of income that cancelling it or no crowds doesn’t create, then we’ve got to look at the next best scenario. If the next best scenario is playing it in one country, where you can have sellout crowds, you can raise some revenue and you can keep that income stream going for all the bodies, then it’s got to be better than cancelling it.


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“I think with every sporting body, it’s revenue that is the biggest thing that has been damaged, so anything that can keep revenue online has got to be preferable to just binning things for a season,” Baxter added. “We’ve all had to try and find a way to keep going, to try and keep revenue coming in. It’s the same with any business, you’ve got to explore those options.”

No 7&1/2 wrote:Malins had the attributes to be a great 10. Still think he would have been best to focus on that but you of course have to allow for other players too. Saracens were stacked with great players through cheating and hence he was used as a jack of all trades for a fair while. If he'd been somewhere else he may well have found himself first choice fly half quickly. But he needs to have time there for his club should he want that position. He isn't a winger for me at this level.

I agree and makes perfect sense - if Malins really wanted to play out half he would have signed with another club which would give him the opportunity to play there regularly.  What is he at Saracens, fourth choice 10 after Farrell, Lazowski, and Goode?  Same applies to any of the multi-positional backs, for lack of a better term.  Slade played some 10 early in his career but was moved out to 13 because he was better there, and has rarely moved back.  His main competition at that time was Gareth Steenson, a sound, smart, reliable, but not dynamic 10.  

The benefit of the hybrid (don't like the term), or multi-positional player, is that it helps enable the 6:2 split.  Having Farrell at 12 also enables a 6:2 split, but as we have talked to death, takes away any dynamism from the inside centre position.  Furbank is getting a lot of game time at 10 for Saints and is doing well. He has forced James Grayson into Rugby purgatory, but Furbank is clearly second choice behind Biggar (no shame there).    

I'm not remotely against the concept.  Probably the more famous examples are Jonny Wilkinson, who apprenticed at 12 and occasionally went back there.  Cipriani started at 15 for Wasps before moving up.  Same with Stephen Larkham at Brumbies.  Daniel Carter apprenticed at 12 for Crusaders, playing behind Andrew Mehrtens.  It just has to be the right players with the right skill set - and also the desire.

England’s greatest utility back is probably Mike Catt, who turned out at every position from 10-15 in an England shirt (and in the 2007 RWC Final appeared at times to be playing several of them at once - when he went off, England’s hopes went with him).

There was also a point when Toulon were able to field Michalak at 9, Wilkinson at 10 and Giteau at 12 - three players who had all played 10 in an RWC semi-final or better.

Poorfour wrote:England’s greatest utility back is probably Mike Catt, who turned out at every position from 10-15 in an England shirt (and in the 2007 RWC Final appeared at times to be playing several of them at once - when he went off, England’s hopes went with him).

There was also a point when Toulon were able to field Michalak at 9, Wilkinson at 10 and Giteau at 12 - three players who had all played 10 in an RWC semi-final or better.

Austin Healy. Just ask him

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:England’s greatest utility back is probably Mike Catt, who turned out at every position from 10-15 in an England shirt (and in the 2007 RWC Final appeared at times to be playing several of them at once - when he went off, England’s hopes went with him).

There was also a point when Toulon were able to field Michalak at 9, Wilkinson at 10 and Giteau at 12 - three players who had all played 10 in an RWC semi-final or better.

Austin Healy. Just ask him

Austin was a very good player to be fair to him, just not as good a player as his ego would have him believe.

Lewsey is an often forgotten player in the versatility battle. He started tests at 10, 11, 12, 14 and 15.

That'd be on a par with Healey playing 9, 10, 11, 14, 15.

Catt played 10, 12, 15 and one game one game at 14.

Jason Robinson also played 11, 12, 14 and 15 so on a level with Catt.

As far as I can think Lewsey and Healey are joint first place for starting in the most positions for England.

I seem to remember Healey playing once at center but it was a very long time ago and I could have that wrong

lostinwales wrote:I seem to remember Healey playing once at center but it was a very long time ago and I could have that wrong

Healey did turn out at 12.  I'm sure I saw him play there more than a few times.  Healey was very quick on his feet and should have been in the 2003 RWC squad.  Just don't say I mentioned it....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:England’s greatest utility back is probably Mike Catt, who turned out at every position from 10-15 in an England shirt (and in the 2007 RWC Final appeared at times to be playing several of them at once - when he went off, England’s hopes went with him).

There was also a point when Toulon were able to field Michalak at 9, Wilkinson at 10 and Giteau at 12 - three players who had all played 10 in an RWC semi-final or better.

Austin Healy. Just ask him

Austin was a very good player to be fair to him, just not as good a player as his ego would have him believe.

Healy was, is and always be a complete and utter bell end. Hated by even his own team mates.

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:England’s greatest utility back is probably Mike Catt, who turned out at every position from 10-15 in an England shirt (and in the 2007 RWC Final appeared at times to be playing several of them at once - when he went off, England’s hopes went with him).

There was also a point when Toulon were able to field Michalak at 9, Wilkinson at 10 and Giteau at 12 - three players who had all played 10 in an RWC semi-final or better.

Austin Healy. Just ask him

Austin was a very good player to be fair to him, just not as good a player as his ego would have him believe.

Healy was, is and always be a complete and utter bell end. Hated by even his own team mates.

Healy is a great pundit, he's quite informed despite his sometimes annoying character. I think it's good to have people like Healy involved in the sport, he's a lot more entertaining than out of touch guys like Guscott etc.

One of the Tigers fans will clear up, but I've never had the impression Healy was hated by his team mates at all. Seen as the annoying little brother type perhaps....and no doubt he got a few clips around the ear.....but hated? Strong words.

One of my favourite rugby stories is that players have an engraved nameplate that goes in their changing room spot and is only given to them when they retire from international rugby.

After Healey's first cap, he received his in the post and was understandably quite distraught.

Until it emerged that Jason Leonard had gone into the changing rooms after everyone had left, and stolen it to mess with his head.

The Funbus. Ahead of the curve as ever.

Poorfour wrote:One of my favourite rugby stories is that players have an engraved nameplate that goes in their changing room spot and is only given to them when they retire from international rugby.

After Healey's first cap, he received his in the post and was understandably quite distraught.

Until it emerged that Jason Leonard had gone into the changing rooms after everyone had left, and stolen it to mess with his head.

The Funbus. Ahead of the curve as ever.

Wonder if Phil Vickery will ever get his

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Gooseberry wrote:

Poorfour wrote:England’s greatest utility back is probably Mike Catt, who turned out at every position from 10-15 in an England shirt (and in the 2007 RWC Final appeared at times to be playing several of them at once - when he went off, England’s hopes went with him).

There was also a point when Toulon were able to field Michalak at 9, Wilkinson at 10 and Giteau at 12 - three players who had all played 10 in an RWC semi-final or better.

Austin Healy. Just ask him

Austin was a very good player to be fair to him, just not as good a player as his ego would have him believe.

Healy was, is and always be a complete and utter bell end. Hated by even his own team mates.

Healy is a great pundit, he's quite informed despite his sometimes annoying character. I think it's good to have people like Healy involved in the sport, he's a lot more entertaining than out of touch guys like Guscott etc.

One of the Tigers fans will clear up, but I've never had the impression Healy was hated by his team mates at all. Seen as the annoying little brother type perhaps....and no doubt he got a few clips around the ear.....but hated? Strong words.

I think hated would be incorrect, annoying little brother certainly. There's some stories involving punch ups etc but that was pretty much par for the course at Tigers at the time. I'm fairly certain he and his wife used to holiday with Corry and his wife. Him and Ben Kay are clearly mates.

I don't think he ever saw eye to eye with Cockers but then again that's not unusual and you are never mates with everybody in the squad.

There's the Martin Johnson story where Healy has complained to the ref that someone has punched him (iirc, in a Leicester game). The ref goes to Jonno and tells him, as Healy's captain, this, to which MJ's response was 'wasn't me sir, but I see 28 other suspects'.

https://twitter.com/georgekruis/status/1496047804028174342?s=12

George Kruis is retiring at the end of the season

BamBam wrote:https://twitter.com/georgekruis/status/1496047804028174342?s=12

George Kruis is retiring at the end of the season

A shame, but good for him that he's doing it on his own terms. One of the most underrated engine room locks I've seen, just very effective at all the stuff that makes a team work better.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I think hated would be incorrect, annoying little brother certainly. There's some stories involving punch ups etc but that was pretty much par for the course at Tigers at the time. I'm fairly certain he and his wife used to holiday with Corry and his wife. Him and Ben Kay are clearly mates.

I don't think he ever saw eye to eye with Cockers but then again that's not unusual and you are never mates with everybody in the squad.

I went to the filming of Rugby Tonight once and they were doing a scrum half passing demo, with some amateur players acting out the demo as they do. After the segment ended and as the players walked away, Austin picked up a ball and passed it - hard - in the kidneys of the departing scrum half.

I don't know if it was an isolated incident or there was some reason for it, but it was pretty unpleasant and unnecessary behaviour for a public figure in a semi-public situation. If it was part of a more general pattern of behaviour, I can see why he wasn't much liked.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:
I think hated would be incorrect, annoying little brother certainly. There's some stories involving punch ups etc but that was pretty much par for the course at Tigers at the time. I'm fairly certain he and his wife used to holiday with Corry and his wife. Him and Ben Kay are clearly mates.

I don't think he ever saw eye to eye with Cockers but then again that's not unusual and you are never mates with everybody in the squad.

I went to the filming of Rugby Tonight once and they were doing a scrum half passing demo, with some amateur players acting out the demo as they do. After the segment ended and as the players walked away, Austin picked up a ball and passed it - hard - in the kidneys of the departing scrum half.

I don't know if it was an isolated incident or there was some reason for it, but it was pretty unpleasant and unnecessary behaviour for a public figure in a semi-public situation. If it was part of a more general pattern of behaviour, I can see why he wasn't much liked.

Yeah I can imagine him trying to be funny and it coming across as just him being a d!ck.

He wasn't even trying to be funny as far as I could see - it was just low level vicious. It's possible that the scrummy had done the same to him earlier and he was just getting his afters in, but it just looked crass.

Poorfour wrote:

BamBam wrote:https://twitter.com/georgekruis/status/1496047804028174342?s=12

George Kruis is retiring at the end of the season

A shame, but good for him that he's doing it on his own terms. One of the most underrated engine room locks I've seen, just very effective at all the stuff that makes a team work better.

Bit of a surprise. When we had him, Itoje, Lawes and Launchbury I wouldn't have swapped our locks for anyones. Pretty much losing him, Launchbury to injury and Lawes moving to flanker really hit us.

BamBam wrote:https://twitter.com/georgekruis/status/1496047804028174342?s=12

George Kruis is retiring at the end of the season

Usually, we lose players to age, injury, loss of form, or some combination of the three. This is a rare case when the player has just lost his appetite for the game, because something else has caught his attention. Must admit, I thought his time in Japan would be his way of taking a sabbatical, with a view to having a crack at another World Cup. As recently as last April, he was saying he'd welcome an outside bet call-up to the Lions.

Have to assume he's decided the business is going to be a mainstay of his life, and he needs to commit to it now. He also suffered concussions in that past, which might have been a factor encouraging him not to push his luck for more seasons.

I do wonder if we'll see more and more players around his age maybe calling it quits sooner.

Mark Wilson has just done the same...though his body is pretty beaten up.

The collisions and physical (and mental) trauma on the pro rugby player these days is considerable. The body really isnt meant to be used like that...in all reality.

It's all about priorities. Maybe he's just realised that at 32 he doesn't recover as quickly as he did and the intense physical strain of playing at the highest level was having an effect on him?

He's probably been thinking "Now, get out now" since he started playing in Japan. I am guessing he has plenty of money behind him. He would have been 33/34 at the next RWC - he may have thought he was just starting that inexorable slide out of form and fitness that he could never regain due to age. Sadly not everyone is a Simon Shaw who can play until they're 143

Big loss....I was hoping he'd hang around for the WC. Best line out lock we have by a distance.

Kruis is the best set-piece lock we had by a mile. A big loss heading into the RWC. I was really hoping he'd return to the Prem next season because he'd walk back into this England side.

Chessum suddenly getting jumping into the squad and debuting now makes a bit more sense. He's one of the most talented lineout forwards I've seen for a while. Hopefully he can keep progressing and leapfrog Ewels.

I don't think Ewels is as rubbish as some but we simply have to have better to challenge at a RWC. Quality at lock is imperative to doing well at a RWC.

1999 - Eales and Giffin
2003 - Johnson and Kay
2007 - Matfield and Bakkies
2011 - Whitelock and Thorn
2015 - Whitelock and Retallick
2019 - Lood and Etzebeth (plus Snyman and Mostert...)

David Giffen is probably the worst player there but still a very good one and it's no coincidence that 1999 RWC final winning side also had Matt Cockbain, another very good lock, at blindside.

To be fair to Giffen, anyone playing alongside Eales is on a bit of a hiding to nothing.

It pains me to say it given the strength we had relatively recently with Itoje, Kruis, Lawes and Launchbury. But if Itoje picks up an injury during this tournament then our lock options are absolute mince.

Chessum has impressed me everytime I've seen him for Tigers (particularly in his work around the field, not just the set piece)...and thats only been a short period really. To be fair hes got a great coach there.

Let's see how he develops under Eddie aswell. Probably be quite prominent on the tour in the summer.

It'll be interesting to see how Alex Groves develops at Sale...one for post WC ...

Telegraph wants Englnd to hire Kruis to coach the lineout ahead of the next World Cup.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/02/22/george-kruis-just-man-reshape-englands-line-out-eddie-jones/

Kruis essentially coached the line-out at Saracens during their period of marred success, meaning it would not be a complete departure from his role as a player.

“It’s incredible to watch George run a line-out session at the club,” Mark McCall, Saracens’ director of rugby, said of Kruis. “It’s something else, the command he has. In that 45 minutes, he’s in absolute control.

“The authority that he brings and the detail that he brings, and even the softer way that he motivates the others, is something to behold.”

Jamie George, another player in the England setup with a strong connection to Kruis, described him as a line-out “guru”.

“Everyone looks at his line-out, he’s a nause, he’s a guru, whatever you want to call it, he’s brilliant,” George told Telegraph Sport in 2020.

“He is one of the hardest-working players you will find. He is always very tough on himself, but in terms of standard-setting, you don’t need to look much further than him.”

It is clear from Kruis’ retirement statement that he wants to focus on his business fourfive, which appears to be growing at a rapid rate. But a part-time role with England - ‘line-out consultant’ perhaps - would allow England to get the best out of Kruis’ immense wealth of knowledge and experience, even if it is not in the way they initially desired.

A functioning line-out, and the platform it provides for the driving maul and to release the backs, is absolutely fundamental to the modern game. England will not win the World Cup without it. Kruis the coach could be the answer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Poorfour wrote:

BamBam wrote:https://twitter.com/georgekruis/status/1496047804028174342?s=12

George Kruis is retiring at the end of the season

A shame, but good for him that he's doing it on his own terms. One of the most underrated engine room locks I've seen, just very effective at all the stuff that makes a team work better.

Bit of a surprise. When we had him, Itoje, Lawes and Launchbury I wouldn't have swapped our locks for anyones. Pretty much losing him, Launchbury to injury and Lawes moving to flanker really hit us.

I think Eddie Jones would have been in touch with Kruis, and at least knew if was planning to come back to England to play, whether or not he intended to retire. So he was likely not being counted on. Given that, Launchbury would be a key player (genius thinking on my part, eh?). If Joe can't recapture his international form, I wonder if that would push Jones to try and move Lawes back to the second row. Certainly an injury to Itoje would (should?) make that happen.

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph wants Englnd to hire Kruis to coach the lineout ahead of the next World Cup.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2022/02/22/george-kruis-just-man-reshape-englands-line-out-eddie-jones/

Kruis essentially coached the line-out at Saracens during their period of marred success, meaning it would not be a complete departure from his role as a player.

“It’s incredible to watch George run a line-out session at the club,” Mark McCall, Saracens’ director of rugby, said of Kruis. “It’s something else, the command he has. In that 45 minutes, he’s in absolute control.

“The authority that he brings and the detail that he brings, and even the softer way that he motivates the others, is something to behold.”

Jamie George, another player in the England setup with a strong connection to Kruis, described him as a line-out “guru”.

“Everyone looks at his line-out, he’s a nause, he’s a guru, whatever you want to call it, he’s brilliant,” George told Telegraph Sport in 2020.

“He is one of the hardest-working players you will find. He is always very tough on himself, but in terms of standard-setting, you don’t need to look much further than him.”

It is clear from Kruis’ retirement statement that he wants to focus on his business fourfive, which appears to be growing at a rapid rate. But a part-time role with England - ‘line-out consultant’ perhaps - would allow England to get the best out of Kruis’ immense wealth of knowledge and experience, even if it is not in the way they initially desired.

A functioning line-out, and the platform it provides for the driving maul and to release the backs, is absolutely fundamental to the modern game. England will not win the World Cup without it. Kruis the coach could be the answer.

I don't doubt for a second that Kruis would make a great lineout coach. If Proudfoot and Cockers can't take care of that between them we have some issues though!

Proudfoot in particular led the imperious Boks lineout.

If Launchbury doesnt come back to the pre injury form / level then its going to be interesting.

Itoje - Who despite his consistently wonderful performances is still a small lock forward.
Isiekwe - Seemingly the jury is still out for Jones...
Johnny Hill - Improving at this level....but a work in progress...
Ewells - The jury is still out for England fans
Chissum - Considerable potential...but very young.
Lawes - Clearly Jones wants him at 6.

Not much else...George Martin clearly staying at 6...
Alex Groves - Young, and has to establish at Sale
Ribbans - Clearly not valued by Jones....
Moon etc - looked at and forgotten by Jones....

I say bring in Sean Robinson...best lock in the league...

Longer term there's Hugh Tizard - who is leaving Quins for Saracens and in many ways resembles a young Kruis - and George Hammond - who is a year or so behind Tiz but presumably the reason Quins feel they can afford to let him go. They are a couple of years off their full physical peak, but in terms of skills and presence on the pitch neither of them has looked out of place in the first XV.

Poorfour we have a few who can certainly come through post WC...

Tizard is only 6'5 aswell isnt he? Still small for an international lock these days....

I know the depth doesn't look great at the moment, but Isiekwe and Hill are only 23/27 respectively and I hope they will continue grow into international rugby.  There are also quite a few 20/21/22 year old locks getting regular/semi regular game time for their clubs:

Hugh Tizard- 21
Chunya Munga- 21
George Martin- 20 (assuming he switches to lock)
Ewan Richards- 19
Ollie Chessum- 21
Alex Coles- 22
George Hammond- 21

Obviously it is a long term view for most of them, and they may fade into obscurity (look at Kpoku) but it is encouraging all the same.

Alfie Bell is the current England U20 lock

Many of these are a wait and see...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Poorfour we have a few who can certainly come through post WC...

Tizard is only 6'5 aswell isnt he? Still small for an international lock these days....

Don't believe the stats... Tizard on the pitch looks to be taller than Symonds and about the same height as Lewies, and Hammond is similar height but a touch bulkier (while also looking like someone put Mike Brown in a replicator and hit the 1.5x scaling button)

GeordieFalcon wrote:Alfie Bell is the current England U20 lock

Many of these are a wait and see...

Very much so. Chessum Jnr has been on loan at Notts this season, at 19 is taller than Ollie and according to the Notts website 18 stone whilst being built like a twigglet. Could be an interesting one to watch, would give Tigers two very good lineout options if he could emulate his older brother.

I suspect George Martin will remain at 6, his game just suits the position.

There's quite a few good young options but we are sort of waiting and seeing with a lot of them and it'll probably be for after the next world cup. Harry Wells was capped last season but not sure he will be again.

I know Geordie was half joking but I rate Sean Robinson, very underrated player and was in the last year's summer squad before injury if I remember rightly. Eddie might have another look this summer if he wants someone a bit more experienced to add something to the set piece.

Young locks such as those are a few years off though.

Itoje of course debuted young at 20 and pretty much became a fixture immediately but if we unearth another Itoje this conversation will be mute!

Lawes also debuted young in 2009 but between 2011 and 2013 he predominantly was on the bench. In the 2013 AIs he reclaimed a starting shirt and has largely held one since. Even with a player of his natural talent there was that clear teething process though.

Kruis didn't debut till he was 24 and had a bit of a slow start to his international career with some unassuming but solid performances that many compared to Louis Deacon.

Lock is a position where all but the most talented tend to need a bit more time to develop and settle in. Unless we can simultaneously get Itoje, Lawes and Launchbury fit with Hill also getting closer to his club performances I fear that come 2023 lock will still look weaker than it did in 2019.

Locks are the new props... given that props seem to be able to come through much earlier these days.

England's 25-man squad to face Wales (from the Telegraph). Two get dropped for the match. Which two players do you think should get the weekend off?
Looking at the 25 overall, is there such a thing as a 'meh' quotient?

For me, Cheesum, Ewels, Malins do nothing for me. Also Stuart and Rodd, but they have to be in the 23. So, If I had to choose, and I do since I posed the question, drop Malins and Ewels. Only wild card for me is whether Nowell is healthy.

Forwards
Ollie Chessum
Luke Cowan-Dickie
Tom Curry
Alex Dombrandt
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Jamie George
Maro Itoje
Nick Isiekwe
Courtney Lawes
Joe Marler
Bevan Rodd
Sam Simmonds
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart

Backs
Elliot Daly
George Ford
Max Malins
Jack Nowell
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Freddie Steward
Manu Tuilagi
Ben Youngs

Pfftt.....Chessum and Rodd to drop out for me.

1. Marler
2. George
3. Sinckler
4. Isiekwe
5. Itoje
6. Lawes
7. Curry
8. Dombrandt

9. Youngs
10 Smith
11. Daly
12. Tuilagi
13. Slade
14. Nowell
15. Steward

Can't be much change in that can it? Possibly Ewels in at 4....

I'd predict Chessum and Rodd to drop out, yeah.

Rodd being there but no TH I presume means there is a slight worry over Genge or Marler.

I'd guess Isiekwe will start alongside Itoje but it's hard to tell when he was left out the training camp over the weekend.

Personally I'd have Chessum on the bench over Ewels at this stage. I think Chessum would offer equal as an attacking lineout jumper, more as a defensive jumper and more round the park. I think Ewels still leads a lineout better but if Lawes, Itoje and Isiekwe are in the XV that shouldn't be an issue.

Interesting to see that the recent Inside Line podcast thingy from England showed Chessum staying behind to do some extra training with Eddie. Maybe there's a surprise in offing. Looking at the players you'd assume that Rodd and Chessum would drop out or the be the traveling reserves on the day.

An inside line episode when Martin was in the squad showed him doing a load of work carrying through contact with Jones and Genge. Basically one to one training. Martin's carrying for Tigers improved a lot after being with the England squad I must say. He's a good example of training young players with established internationals early so they can see the standard and push on, then letting them get lots of club game time to put it into practice.

That one on one stuff was likely more indicative of Martin having parts of his game below the standard required rather than his imminent selection though.

Shame to see Marchant drop out now that Manu is back but he's not really grabbed his chances, but then I just don't see him as an Int wing. He'd be a brilliant 13 though but it looks like he's never going to get to play there for England.

Oh well, England's loss is Quins gain.

He played 13 against Italy and didn't do much with the chance if we're honest, yappy.

I think Marchant is a really good 13 but I still think I'd pick Slade there over him if either are partnering a ball carrier such as Tuilagi. Slade's kicking game at international level sometimes gets over egged I think but his defensive work is fantastic, carrying much improved and his passing game getting more consistent.

You think EJ is looking for Slade to play the Farrell role with Tuilagi in the traditional hard running outside centre? Or rather, Slade in the traditional second receiver role considering we don't want him stopping the attack? Especially since there is no second playmaking option at fullback, unlike what Scotland can do with Hogg at 15.

king_carlos wrote:He played 13 against Italy and didn't do much with the chance if we're honest, yappy.

I think Marchant is a really good 13 but I still think I'd pick Slade there over him if either are partnering a ball carrier such as Tuilagi. Slade's kicking game at international level sometimes gets over egged I think but his defensive work is fantastic, carrying much improved and his passing game getting more consistent.

That's fair, i've been disapointed with how Marchant panned out as he had so much promise. Slade is better than a lot of people say but I still feel Marchant would be better if he'd had the run of games there that slade had got.

Tough on Marchant, but I imagine he'll be back in soon enough.

If it was my call, I'd be still be playing Care and JJ.....two top class operators better than the England starting options.