England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

sensisball wrote:
With Bath enduring a terrible season how many tries has Cokonasiga scored?

In five starts and four sub appearances he's bagged five tries. One appearance and one try for England.

It's a bench lacking experience but it's the type of players we'd like to have as options come the world cup.

Ignore the front row that pretty much picked itself.

Chessum - covers lock and 6 highly mobile and physical, good lineout option and we've been desperate for a young lock to come through.

Ludlam - covers 8 and 7 which is what the bench needs, club captain so adds much needed leadership here.

JVP - no one likes the current 9 options for last season's Under 20 captain and player of the J6N gets a chance. Best kicking game of the three 9s on tour and likes to play high tempo.

Porter - covers every position in the backs outside of 9 and 10, could probably do a job on the flank as well. Eddie likes a versatility option as they very much help the overall squad come world cup so audition time for Guy.

Arundell - exciting young player, not ready yet but Eddie will be hoping some international game time might speed up his development. Unlikely starter but potential game changer off the bench, always handy to have one of those at a world cup. Porter's inclusion means Arundell won't have to go in early unless there's multiple injuries.

I'd take Jones over Woodward every single time.

lostinwales wrote:I suspect that Marler, like Launchbury (and Kruis) is at that stage of his career where he is going gently downhill. He may still be good enough come the RWC, especially as he is effectively getting more time to recover through not touring, but I am wary of looking at the old timers as providing a solution to all our ills.

That's not what Marler's performances suggest, though. His form over the past two years has been comfortably his best. It's barely a year since he put in that mammoth 100 minute shift at Ashton Gate and while he hasn't been asked to do that since, he's put in a lot of game time this year as Quins have had injury and form issues with their other props.

For Marler, it's more mental than physical: if he's in the right headspace to give his all, you want him in the squad. He wouldn't have been for this tour, but (what would be) a final crack at the RWC, especially one close enough to home that his family can easily get over, is a very different kettle of fish. It depends a little on the opposition, but if England end up facing the Boks or France in an RWC Final, I would want him starting rather than on the bench unless Genge levels up in the setpiece over the next 12 months.

Poorfour wrote:

lostinwales wrote:I suspect that Marler, like Launchbury (and Kruis) is at that stage of his career where he is going gently downhill. He may still be good enough come the RWC, especially as he is effectively getting more time to recover through not touring, but I am wary of looking at the old timers as providing a solution to all our ills.

That's not what Marler's performances suggest, though. His form over the past two years has been comfortably his best. It's barely a year since he put in that mammoth 100 minute shift at Ashton Gate and while he hasn't been asked to do that since, he's put in a lot of game time this year as Quins have had injury and form issues with their other props.

For Marler, it's more mental than physical: if he's in the right headspace to give his all, you want him in the squad. He wouldn't have been for this tour, but (what would be) a final crack at the RWC, especially one close enough to home that his family can easily get over, is a very different kettle of fish. It depends a little on the opposition, but if England end up facing the Boks or France in an RWC Final, I would want him starting rather than on the bench unless Genge levels up in the setpiece over the next 12 months.

The scrum went well in the 6N with Genge starting. Against the Boks we won't come out on top so it's a case of getting the ball in and out quick. Dropping Genge to the bench would be a tough ask early in the game unless we were to change tactics and look to frustrate the opposition in the first half before unloading the bench for an early second half push against tired legs. In the 6N Genge was our number 1 ball carrier because Dombrandt and Simmonds couldn't do the job Billy does and even with Billy back Genge is still highly prominent, number 2 ball carrier. Marler can't replicate that and it's a problem we have generally that no one else can.

Number 1 carrier how?

BamBam wrote:What did Marchant do that warranted being completely dropped?

He didn't make Eddie Jones look like a genius.

Sharkey06 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Perhaps it clicks this week and we run in 6 tries, perhaps we don't.

There isn't much cause for optimism that it will suddenly click based on our performances over the last couple of years.  Even our 'big' win against South Africa was a scrappy affair and the Saffers were left wondering how they managed to lose that game.

The "it is all preparation for the next world cup" comments seem to be a bit Emperor's new clothes.  The simpler answer is that Eddie looks bereft of ideas, is too caught up with his own brilliance and falls out with players and coaches too easily.  Taking account of their injuries and unavailable players, this is a pretty modest Australia squad.  I am under no illusion that Eddie will be sacked even if we lose the series 3 - 0, as has been well pointed out the cost of replacing him would be significant at a time when the RFU are tightening their belts.  But the performance of the England cricket teams does demonstrate what can happen with some clarity in thinking and putting round pegs in round holes.  It would certainly be interesting to see what happened (in a looking through your fingers way) if Eddie was sacked and replaced by SCW.

As you say, mate, this is not a great Wallaby team. I think the talent level is not that high even if their whole squad was healthy. Subtract more players from that, and England are in a must win from now. If the next two matches are close, hard fought, anyone can win type of matches, then of course Eddie Jones keeps his position. But I think if the next two games go pear shaped and the team continues to look without direction (the most important thing short of a W) then the RFU will have no options and make EJ follow BJ (so to speak).

What will be interesting is the use of the bench. There are some good players that could really change the way we play. Let's hope they get a chance to shine. In the first half in test one the pack was making inroads and if we can keep that going for 80mins there is a ray of hope.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Number 1 carrier how?

The primary carrier in phase play to get the team on the front foot. Against France he was sat in the backfield in order to counter the French kicking game.

Thought so. I disagree that dombrandt or Simmonds couldn't do that job though. Thought at the time it was a little silly as it really impacted scrummaging. Won't happen again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Thought so. I disagree that dombrandt or Simmonds couldn't do that job though. Thought at the time it was a little silly as it really impacted scrummaging. Won't happen again.

Well neither were particularly effective in the 6N. They don't play like that for their clubs, the both carry in wider channels generally though I agree it would have made more sense for Simmonds to be dropped into the backfield as Genge ended up putting in a massive shift, having your loosehead run more metres ball in hand than anyone else in the side was always likely to impact his scrummaging. Simmonds is pretty lethal 5m out for Chiefs which is something we could have done with in Australia last weekend.

If we can come up with a lock or blindside that can bring more carrying and take the emphasis off of Genge, Marler might have more chance of taking the starting shirt back. Really we could do with more carrying threat in the pack anyway.

Tweet from stats man Russ Petty:

So far this year, 11 of the 48 England replacements / 'finishers' had 0-3 minutes (16/48 with 0-8 minutes)

When you consider we have lost the last quarter, in something like eight our of our last 12 matches, that does suggest Jones has lost the knack of getting the best out of the bench.

Jones says Porter has been selected to go for gaps. On the BBC podcast, Ugo Monye wondered why, if that was the problem last week, Porter wasn't played off the bench at all.

Petty also tweeted this:

England 2016-19 = 37 debuts (10 starting) in 50 Tests

England 2020-22 inc 2nd Test v AUS = 37 debuts (18 starting) in 26 Tests

Well I'd agree that Dombrandt was used differently, it was him in the tight and moving Lawes to play in midfield, gotta admit that confused me. It's another bug bear with Lawes, if you're going to pick a big lump there use him. Even when using him in midfield he was mainly passing and very rarely going through the tackle. Underhill should lend a bit there this week, and Ludlam and Willis.

Rugby Fan wrote:Tweet from stats man Russ Petty:

So far this year, 11 of the 48 England replacements / 'finishers' had 0-3 minutes (16/48 with 0-8 minutes)

When you consider we have lost the last quarter, in something like eight our of our last 12 matches, that does suggest Jones has lost the knack of getting the best out of the bench.

Jones says Porter has been selected to go for gaps. On the BBC podcast, Ugo Monye wondered why, if that was the problem last week, Porter wasn't played off the bench at all.

Petty also tweeted this:

England 2016-19 = 37 debuts (10 starting) in 50 Tests

England 2020-22 inc 2nd Test v AUS = 37 debuts (18 starting) in 26 Tests

That is definitely a problem Eddie needs to sort out. The bench added impact last weekend it was just after the Aussies had already sealed the game. The Aussies looked to the bench earlier (and not just because of injury) and had a purple patch between 60-70 mins which swung the balance. It's a Borthwick trick loading the bench and bringing them on to bring impact normally early in the second half. I wonder if that was something he brought to the England coaching staff Eddie hasn't been able to replicate without him.

https://youtu.be/yu4xNPN6b1w

Bit on Guy Porter highlights for last season.

We've seen before a decent player can make the team better overall than a good player so fingers crossed. I wish Kelly and Ojomoh were both fit though.

Following from the BBC but by god it's up there with Borthwicks post match speech from the Italy match. Sorry you don't get to write off games and look at the bigger picture:

'England captain Courtney Lawes says "patience" will be required while the side are "developing as a team".

Lawes will lead England in the second Test against Australia on Saturday as they try to level the series after a defeat in the opening game.

Guy Porter and Tommy Freeman will make their debuts in the game, while Jack van Poortvliet will make his first start.

Lawes said at this stage performance is a higher priority than the win.

"I'm taking nothing away from the win because we'd absolutely love to win, but developing as a team and taking us in the right direction is definitely at the forefront of our minds," he said.

Uncapped Guy Porter and Tommy Freeman to start for England
'Fans hoping Eddie Jones' positivity is not blind faith'
A fourth change for the second Test in Brisbane will see Sam Underhill replace Tom Curry, who has been ruled out of the tour because of concussion.

"Just because we have a new team and a new strategy, and are trying to find our DNA as a team, because we've got so many new players doesn't mean that we don't feel like we're good enough to beat Australia. We certainly do," said Lawes.

"We're going to do everything we can to make sure we win the series. But at the same time, yes, we've had the conversation that we're making these changes for a reason.

"We think it will open up our potential and we'll be a better team for it. Maybe not now, it's going to take time to get there and we are going to have patience.

"We are going to go through ups and downs, that's for sure. But as long as we're building towards an end product which is in the forefront of our minds, that is the main thing for us.

"Off the field we're as tight a team as I've ever been a part of in an England jersey. That is 100% genuine. Because of that we're all on the same page.

"We have full confidence that we're going to go out and win this weekend. But we also understand that we're going to make some mistakes, we're going to have to tweak some things, we're going to have to find some things out about ourselves and we're going to have to keep on improving week on week."'

Porter's an interesting one. His skill set is very rounded indeed.

In attack his ability at Premiership level to identify, target and take advantage of weaker defenders is brilliant. If there's a weak arm he goes through. If a defender is watching the ruck rather than 'his man' near the try line Porter spots it and runs a very good line to hit the blind spot. Etc etc. He just does those little things that target the weak link very well. With fewer weak links at international level will that have the same affect though? I'm unsure but excited to see.

In terms of value for money there are few players I'd guess are worth more in the Premiership? Signed from Sydney Uni presumably on a pittance, started a winning Premiership final, covers a ton of positions, now playing for England against Australia at the Suncorp. It's a cracking story.

Porter and Harry Potter are an interesting example of how a coaches influence can carry on long after a brief stay. Rob Taylor joined Tigers as attack coach from Sydney Uni. For personal reasons he was only here briefly but basically brought Porter and Potter to Welford Road. What signings they've been.

So, any predictions for the Oz-England game tomorrow?  Feeling good the young'uns are getting their run?  On the other hand, do you think the ball will effectively make it to the back three?  Or even to Porter?   And what about the pack?  I went England by 3, not because I am vaguely impressed by what Eddie Jones has given us for Saturday let alone the last 2 years.  Rather because the Wallabies lost more players and are not really a good team.  Of course, that reflects directly on England.

I actually believe the three newbies will be OK. No one goes from zero to one hundred overnight (and then sustains it). It is all about how Farrell plays and his decision making, and the ever-loving breakdown.

doctor_grey wrote:So, any predictions for the Oz-England game tomorrow?  Feeling good the young'uns are getting their run?  On the other hand, do you think the ball will effectively make it to the back three?  Or even to Porter?   And what about the pack?  I went England by 3, not because I am hyper impressed by what Eddie Jones has given us for Saturday as well as the last 2 years.  Rather because the Wallabies lost more players and are not really a good team.  Of course, that reflects directly on England.

Who's the ref?

Can see it going both ways but if I had to call it Australia by a score.

Yoda wrote:Who's the ref?

Andrew Brace.

Prediction? England to get thumped. They got outclassed last week, despite Australia being down to 14 for just over half of it, and the scoreboard only looked so kind because the home side dozed off for the last few minutes.

Jones doesn't have a clue with regards to team selection and that's trickling down to the players, who look similarly befuddled and confused on the pitch. Team selection again this week is a mess. Jones' building for the World Cup stuff is nonsense. He should know his best 23 by now and should be looking to play it regularly and to build a winning habit, as Sir Clive did so brilliantly between 2001-2003.  But he doesn't.

Jones' plan is essentially three-fold - hope Tuilagi is fit; start Tuilagi; pray Tuilagi remains fit. Until then there's no consistency or cohesion. England have taken several steps back since beating NZ in 2019.

Can't wait for this game. Gonna be epic!

The pre-match at Suncorp has been epic. This is NAIDOC week in Aus which is all about celebrating aboriginal culture.

Expect a very pumped up Aussie team.

England finding a huge amount of space already. Aussie defence all over the place

Big carry from Genge to set the tone then textbook rolling maul. Very nice so far from England.

What took so long?

That's a much better start overall.

There have been a couple of pretty poor kicks but when they've gone through phases it's looked far better.

Multiple forwards carrying very well and slick hands from the backs off that quick ball.

Good set-piece move for the try as well.

Completely dominant start from England!

Great play by Steward.

Good start. Really like the look of Van Poortvliet so far.

Pretty soft on Topou there

England couldn't have asked for a more dominant opening 15 minutes!

How much trouble is he in here?

Genge is a complete moron sometimes. He tried to get some aggro going with Hooper right after the try was scored. Now he does that which is needless. Lucky to not get carded.

Genge a lucky boy - could have been a yellow.

Complete needless

Duty281 wrote:Genge is a complete moron sometimes. He tried to get some aggro going with Hooper right after the try was scored. Now he does that which is needless. Lucky to not get carded.

No card for Genge? Sh!t, that is off easy.

That's something that JvP has which some 9s don't. He's got a big boot on him. It means he can hang kicks very high for the chase whilst keeping decent length on them.

I've felt for a while that Quirke and JvP will be England's solution at 9 rather than Randall, Mitchell, recalling Care, etc.

So dumb from Genge though. England had all the momentum.

In fact how was that not a yellow?

It's a strange one as because he's done it to the back of the head there's no card. If it had been to the face it would have been a yellow minimum.

Genge wins a scrum pen when he shouldn't have been on the pitch!

Duty281 wrote:It's a strange one as because he's done it to the back of the head there's no card. If it had been to the face it would have been a yellow minimum.

Since when was head contact just classed as the front of the head?

Australia just can't get any momentum here. England utterly dominant.

Very important intervention from Lawes. Australia were getting a lot of momentum after that very poor kick.

RDW wrote:Australia just can't get any momentum here. England utterly dominant.

gotta convert the chances though.

RDW wrote:

Duty281 wrote:It's a strange one as because he's done it to the back of the head there's no card. If it had been to the face it would have been a yellow minimum.

Since when was head contact just classed as the front of the head?

True, but that's the way it seems.

I'd take this deliberate knock on nonsense out of the game.

16-0. Fantastic start, long way back for Australia.

This could get messy! Looks like a vintage England performance where they look like world beaters.

One hand, very unlikely to catch it, clearly stopping the ball getting to the outside man. Don't think there's much to complain about in that.

RDW wrote:This could get messy! Looks like a vintage England performance where they look like world beaters.

long
way
to
go

king_carlos wrote:One hand, very unlikely to catch it, clearly stopping the ball getting to the outside man. Don't think there's much to complain about in that.

Not got Sky so not watching it, but did it stray into penalty try territory?