WALES INTERNATIONAL: GAMES, SQUADS, TOURNAMENTS, CHAT - SUMMER TOUR & SEASON 2022/23

First topic message reminder :

Here it is:

Springbok team to face Wales in Cape Town:
15 – Damian Willemse (DHL Stormers) – 17 caps, 12 pts (1t, 2c, 1p)
14 – Cheslin Kolbe (Toulon) – 19 caps 18pts, 50pts (10t)
13 – Lukhanyo Am (Cell C Sharks) – 27 caps, 25 pts (5t)
12 – Damian de Allende (Wild Knights) – 59 caps, 35 pts (7t)
11 – Makazole Mapimpi (Cell C Sharks) – 26 caps, 100 pts (20t)
10 – Handre Pollard (Leicester Tigers) – 61 caps, 613 pts (6t, 83c, 131p, 4d)
9 – Jaden Hendrikse (Cell C Sharks) – 3 caps, 5 pts (1t)
8 – Jasper Wiese (Leicester Tigers) – 12 caps, 0 pts
7 – Pieter-Steph du Toit (Toyota Verblitz) – 59 caps, 25 pts (5t)
6 – Siya Kolisi (captain, Cell C Sharks) – 64 caps, 30 pts (6t)
5 – Lood de Jager (Wild Knights) – 57 caps, 25 pts (5t)
4 – Eben Etzebeth (Cell C Sharks) – 99 caps, 15 pts (3t)
3 – Frans Malherbe (DHL Stormers) – 47 caps, 5pts (1t)
2 – Bongi Mbonambi (Cell C Sharks) – 49 caps, 50 pts (10t)
1 – Trevor Nyakane (Racing 92) – 55 caps, 5pts (1t)

Replacements:
16 – Malcolm Marx (Kubota Spears) – 48 caps, 55 pts (11t)
17 – Steven Kitshoff (DHL Stormers) – 60 caps, 5pts (1t)
18 – Vincent Koch (Wasps) 33 caps, 0 pts
19 – Franco Mostert (Honda Heat) – 52 caps, 5pts (1t)
20 – Kwagga Smith (Shizuoka Blue Revs) – 20 caps, 5 pts (1t)
21 – Elrigh Louw (Vodacom Bulls) – 1 cap, 0pts
22 – Faf de Klerk (Canon Eagles) – 37caps, 25pts (5t)
23 – Willie le Roux (Toyota Verblitz) – 73 caps, 60 pts (12t)

I think Welsh fans need to move beyond dicussing Pivacs position now and start looking at the top of the WRU and the people running Welsh rugby. Personally I'm in favour of sacking Steve Phillips and Nigel Walker for the dire state of the entire Welsh game. Pivac's sacking as Welsh coach should be a given, and as the peole in charge of our game seem to be paralysed, and unable to make decisions in the best interests of the national game, it is time to rip the Welsh game apart and start over, starting at the very top and working our way down.

The Welsh Rugby Union is presiding over the total demise of the Welsh game at all levels. We're down to 119 youth teams, a number diminishing each year, and most of those teams are unable to complete afull fixture list, not that they play many games anyway. Intrest, attendances, and sponsorship is down across the board, and seems to be in a tail spin.

Time for a big change in the management of Welsh rugby.

What append i had to go out wjen i  did Wales was 20 13 up and looked well in control. when i got back Wales 34 Aus 39 i could not believe it.

Will Pivac survive to the RWC now?

I take it MOM went to an Aussie.But in all honesty how er;; did AWJ play over all? Did not see the whole game but in the first haf he looked really good. Did he stay on the whole 20 or was he subbed a some point?

Think AWJ played about 65 or so, was subbed when Oz were getting back on the scoreboard. It seemed a strange time to take him off, unless he was injured or had emptied his tanks.
It was the most complete collapse from a 6 N's team that I have ever witnessed.

Apart, of course, from England against Scotland at Twickers when we witnessed peak Finnsanity to claw back a draw from about 20 points down.

Don't think Pivac can shoulder all the blame, the team simply stopped playing and started holding on for the final whistle from about 30 minutes out!

I really feel for Wales fans and in particular I go back to 6N 2010 when Scotland dominated Wales for an hour in Cardiff and then shipped 17 unanswered points and had 2 sin binnings in the last 10 minutes and imploded completely. I didn't wait around for the winning Shane Williams try in the last minute because I felt it was inevitable that it would come (which it obviously did).

I'm just going to throw this out because I want to educate myself. Is this really all down to Pivac? I understand it's been the worst test series for Wales since the 50s but is it really down to him? Was the problem gameplan and/or selection?

majesticimperialman wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Oh my god - are we going to see Halfpenny in a Wales shirt ever again?
He seems to be perpetually broken.

Re Halfpenny i thought he retired from playing the game and took  to coaching  instead?

Bloody hell

Pivac can get fired now, finally. Then fire everyone else. Come on, where’s my antagonist now?

Called it when we were 20 points up, I said we need to keep our foot down & get to 40 points & make a statement otherwise we will lose. We cannot see games out for some reason & whilst Pivac cannot help the yellow cards, the buck has to stop with him.

Would love to see Robertson in but I think we will end up with Gatland on a < 1 year contract.

I do not think Gatland coming in will make a difference to be honest, He Gatland dose not have the same players he did when he fI 30years pf age plenty of experience but too old foe the modern international game.

I guess we will see soon enough.

Looks like I was right about Lydiate and Halfpenny. Then he didn’t pick Priestland as he was afraid he’d fluff it (which he likely would). Well, you did pick him, Wayne.

For me, Gatland to come back in is a must. Otherwise we’ll just continue to slide backwards. I think some of the back room staff should go too, but that’s unlikely. I think Gatland would keep them so he can be the top boss, rather than get better defence, forwards and backs coaches. Still, it’s a step up on Pivac running the show.

Another thing, we are short on some forward positions. I believe special dispensation should be given for the 6N and RWC, allowing us to bring in someone experienced and still capable of playing at the highest level - Jake Ball for example.

I guess he was wrong about Jac Morgan too.

Or we could go all out & buy Edwards out of his contract with France as he has a clause that allows him to be released for a head coach role.

Oakdene wrote:Or we could go all out & buy Edwards out of his contract with France as he has a clause that allows him to be released for a head coach role.

Do you think he's a good fit for head coach?


Forgot to add, Hardy was also rubbish. Another selection I called out. Gareth Davies is playing better!

mikey_dragon wrote:

Oakdene wrote:Or we could go all out & buy Edwards out of his contract with France as he has a clause that allows him to be released for a head coach role.

Do you think he's a good fit for head coach?


Forgot to add, Hardy was also rubbish. Another selection I called out. Gareth Davies is playing better!

I do think he will be a good fit because he knows what he wants.

Cawdor accepted that he wasn't playing good enough at the time, to be selected in the squad. (Am sure he came out & said as much recently.)

Cawdor was right, so long as he was talking about last season. This season he's been better, and he is in better form than Hardy who was rubbish for Scarlets. One can only assume he's another Pivac-fave like Elias (straight on and yellow card) .

mikey_dragon wrote:Cawdor was right, so long as he was talking about last season. This season he's been better, and he is in better form than Hardy who was rubbish for Scarlets. One can only assume he's another Pivac-fave like Elias (straight on and yellow card) .

Cawdors early part of the season has been poor really though he probably had his best game against the Stormers on the weekend just gone.

I don’t see Edwards as a head coach, there’s a reason Gatland selected Howley to head up our campaigns whilst he was on his Lions duties.

I don’t see many realistic alternatives as a head coach. As much as it pains me to say it, as he was a favourite player of mine, I’d advocate getting a replacement in for Stephen Jones, plus a tough forwards coach in for Humphreys, who I have never been entirely convinced by.

Pivac got the selection of the squad pretty spot on (with the exception of a couple of back 3 players)

chris_501 wrote:Pivac got the selection of the squad pretty spot on (with the exception of a couple of back 3 players)

You've confirmed (again) that you don't watch much rugby. At least that which involves Welsh teams.

chris_501 wrote:I don’t see Edwards as a head coach, there’s a reason Gatland selected Howley to head up our campaigns whilst he was on his Lions duties.

Edwards won the Heineken Cup with Wasps whilst head coach.

For the first of the Lions Tours he was the defence coach.

Given he pulled out of the Wigan top job and has already committed to France until 2027 it would seem like he doesn't want to be anything more than the defence coach. Can't blame him, no media rubbish to deal with, I'm sure France pay well and apparently he lives down in Perpignan which is pretty nice.

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:Pivac got the selection of the squad pretty spot on (with the exception of a couple of back 3 players)

You've confirmed (again) that you don't watch much rugby. At least that which involves Welsh teams.

Apart from Angus O’Brien, just interested who you thought should have been involved in the campaign that wasn’t? Thomas Young has been great, but Tipuric, Reffell and Morgan are all stars.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

chris_501 wrote:I don’t see Edwards as a head coach, there’s a reason Gatland selected Howley to head up our campaigns whilst he was on his Lions duties.

Edwards won the Heineken Cup with Wasps whilst head coach.

For the first of the Lions Tours he was the defence coach.

Given he pulled out of the Wigan top job and has already committed to France until 2027 it would seem like he doesn't want to be anything more than the defence coach. Can't blame him, no media rubbish to deal with, I'm sure France pay well and apparently he lives down in Perpignan which is pretty nice.

It was more during the 6 Nations when Gats was on his sabbatical, Howley was the coach selected to take control. I’m not saying Edwards couldn’t do it, but at international level he is unproven.

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:Pivac got the selection of the squad pretty spot on (with the exception of a couple of back 3 players)

You've confirmed (again) that you don't watch much rugby. At least that which involves Welsh teams.

Apart from Angus O’Brien, just interested who you thought should have been involved in the campaign that wasn’t? Thomas Young has been great, but Tipuric, Reffell and Morgan are all stars.

I pointed all this out when the squad was announced. I highlighted every selection. I was right about Lydiate, Elias, Hardy, Halfpenny, Cuthbert. And that’s just off the top of my head.

Perhaps you also read a BBC article? Among the potential Wales coaches was Steve Borthwick. That was something else I posted and you slated.

A number of occasions where I was right and you were wrong

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:Pivac got the selection of the squad pretty spot on (with the exception of a couple of back 3 players)

You've confirmed (again) that you don't watch much rugby. At least that which involves Welsh teams.

Apart from Angus O’Brien, just interested who you thought should have been involved in the campaign that wasn’t? Thomas Young has been great, but Tipuric, Reffell and Morgan are all stars.

I pointed all this out when the squad was announced. I highlighted every selection. I was right about Lydiate, Elias, Hardy, Halfpenny, Cuthbert. And that’s just off the top of my head.

Perhaps you also read a BBC article? Among the potential Wales coaches was Steve Borthwick. That was something else I posted and you slated.

A number of occasions where I was right and you were wrong

I still doubt he'd even take the interview for a mid season change.

Fact is that I called it. I was shot down and then what do you know… BBC are running away with it. I don’t see Borthwick coming in for a year, but for the following 4 year cycle yes it’s a possibility. I think he’d rather wait to see if England make an offer though. What about Baxter, why wouldn’t he also be in the England and Wales mix?

Baxter has said that he has no interest in being a national coach

mikey_dragon wrote:Fact is that I called it. I was shot down and then what do you know… BBC are running away with it. I don’t see Borthwick coming in for a year, but for the following 4 year cycle yes it’s a possibility. I think he’d rather wait to see if England make an offer though. What about Baxter, why wouldn’t he also be in the England and Wales mix?

I’ll say it again, there is no chance Borthwick, Baxter, Robertson will come in before the WC. BBC are just chucking names out with nothing to back it up.

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Fact is that I called it. I was shot down and then what do you know… BBC are running away with it. I don’t see Borthwick coming in for a year, but for the following 4 year cycle yes it’s a possibility. I think he’d rather wait to see if England make an offer though. What about Baxter, why wouldn’t he also be in the England and Wales mix?

I’ll say it again, there is no chance Borthwick, Baxter, Robertson will come in before the WC. BBC are just chucking names out with nothing to back it up.

Nobody said that but you. Another arugment you created with yourself, you need to stop now.

Yeah BBC posted it after I did and you got triggered, twice . I number of media outlets have posted it since

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Fact is that I called it. I was shot down and then what do you know… BBC are running away with it. I don’t see Borthwick coming in for a year, but for the following 4 year cycle yes it’s a possibility. I think he’d rather wait to see if England make an offer though. What about Baxter, why wouldn’t he also be in the England and Wales mix?

I’ll say it again, there is no chance Borthwick, Baxter, Robertson will come in before the WC. BBC are just chucking names out with nothing to back it up.

Nobody said that but you. Another arugment you created with yourself, you need to stop now.

Yeah BBC posted it after I did and you got triggered, twice . I number of media outlets have posted it since  

I’ll play your game then Mikey, I’ll wait until they stay with their teams, or go and coach England and say I told you so.

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

chris_501 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Fact is that I called it. I was shot down and then what do you know… BBC are running away with it. I don’t see Borthwick coming in for a year, but for the following 4 year cycle yes it’s a possibility. I think he’d rather wait to see if England make an offer though. What about Baxter, why wouldn’t he also be in the England and Wales mix?

I’ll say it again, there is no chance Borthwick, Baxter, Robertson will come in before the WC. BBC are just chucking names out with nothing to back it up.

Nobody said that but you. Another arugment you created with yourself, you need to stop now.

Yeah BBC posted it after I did and you got triggered, twice . I number of media outlets have posted it since  

I’ll play your game then Mikey, I’ll wait until they stay with their teams, or go and coach England and say I told you so.

What did you tell me though? All your comments are supposition, arguing points I didn't make, and obsessing over Pat Lam. The fact is you were wrong about Pivac all along, whilst myself and others were right. Just admit it.

Knock it off lads. Just foe each other.

A couple of questions to all Welsh Fans.
I posted this on the English thread as well.

{1} If the WRU decide to sak Povac who will take his place?
{2} Will the new coach who ever it is make Wales world champions and take Wales further than Pivac could have done?

1. Eddie Jones.

2. Yes much further, World Cup champions, imo.

mikey_dragon wrote:1. Eddie Jones.

2. Yes much faia was urther, World Cup champions, imo.

mikey-dragon
I was trying to be serious with my question. ok.

The great Messiah Warren Gatland CBE has returned!

Reports circulating that it's a long-term deal, not just 6N and World Cup cover.

mikey_dragon wrote:Reports circulating that it's a long-term deal, not just 6N and World Cup cover.

until 2027.

Yet to be confirmed, but that's the expectation. I believe they are still going with the initial deal of the 6N and RWC, then seeing who else might be available. I expect Gatland will be the front-runner though.

There was some very vague wording in the statement about how Gatland has the ‘ability to go to 2027’. Makes me think it is till the WC and then either a break clause, or can move Gatland upstairs into more of a DoR rugby position.

mikey_dragon wrote:Yet to be confirmed, but that's the expectation. I believe they are still going with the initial deal of the 6N and RWC, then seeing who else might be available. I expect Gatland will be the front-runner though.

I did hear that it could be a 2 year as coach then the option of moving upstairs in a DoR role.

Massive for Wales in fairness. Great move.

Wales will probably win the six nations now. What happened to Gatland job with the Chiefs, was he not in contract?

Seriously though of Gatland is made Lions coach again I’m not gonna bother watching.

Although Pivac as had a bad AI i do not think Wales should pf brought  Gatland back at such short notice, personally i think he Pivac should of stayed  until the end of 2023 RWC. Give him a chance to turn things around.

Collapse2005 wrote:Wales will probably win the six nations now. What happened to Gatland job with the Chiefs, was he not in contract?

He was the head coach, although seems to have been in and out of the role with Lions duty, Covid, etc. He didn't have a good term with them, but the one after was better.

McMillan came in and did miles better, Gatland pretty much demoted to defence coach, on a head coach's salary.

A real shame that Pivac's teams couldn't find the consistency of performances to succeed, he came in at a tough time with Covid affecting his first 18 months in charge, but at the time was certainly the correct choice to take Wales on.

He has done a good job of bringing younger players into the squad, Tompkins, Morgan, Reffell, Rees Zammit, Rowlands, Thomas and Tshiunza will all be important players over the next year.

A 6 nations title and a historic 1st win down in South Africa should also be remembered.

As for Gatland, I can't help feeling its a step backwards, but we will see. The noise about him being more of a DOR role sounds better, as professional rugby in Wales needs a character, with his credibility, to head up what is a role far bigger than the national team head coach.

Probably a good decision considering the difficulties with the Welsh regions. I get the feeling the WRU desperately want stability and Gatland should provide exactly that. I could certainly see a better Wales team turning out in the 2023 6N with Gatland's philosophy reinstated.

No 7&1/2 wrote:McMillan came in and did miles better, Gatland pretty much demoted to defence coach, on a head coach's salary.

Yeah I can't imagine the Chiefs stood in his way. His tenure there was a disaster. A lot of the fans wanted him out before the reshuffle took place and he was given the DOR role as opposed to defence coach. It was somewhat of a false title just to move him out though as you say to give his understudy the chance to remain in charge.

So Wales return to Gatland, the pressure is on the WRU to prove the the Welsh fan vase they have made the right choice.

I do think with Wales as with England the squad need to change before any change in result will be notIced UMO.

This will be the biggest test of how good a coach Gatland actually is.

A lot of players looking for form and without a game plan that has worked consistently.

And crucially, no Edwards to help him.