Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JuliusHMarx]

First topic message reminder :

I am not prone to defending the old firm but what do you mean by not close to CL standard? They are probably pretty similar to other pot 4 teams.

They clearly aren't capable of competing in it, furthermore if they were genuinely Champions League standard they wouldn't have to rely on Russian league expulsion to get in automatically and wouldn't have such a dismal qualifying record against Malmo, Copenhagen, Midtylland etc.

Teams that are CL standard actually appear in it, rather than once every five years. Evidently they are there to make up numbers.
Getting third position is the aspiration and that looks a step too far for Rangers at least and likely Celtic

Fancy editing this one before I go forth and rip the utter Poopie apart point by point?

Not at all. Celtic and Rangers are proving categorically why they are pot 4. They have been terrible.
Unless they do their part in improving the SPL and thus increasing revenue so they can compete at this level they are only ever going to be able to do ok in Europa and Conference, it's clear as day they aren't up to the CL under the status quo.
Not really sure how you can "rip that apart"
Celtic and Rangers are partially responsible for how bad the quality of the domestic League is, but do nothing to improve it. It's self fulfilling and any reasonable OF fan would admit they aren't good enough for the Champions League and unless things change domestically, they never will.
That's pretty reasonable isn't it?

Yes, it comes down to money, but if your teams can't be arsed to improve the product, then expect this every year until your coefficient denudes to the point where automatic qualification doesn't occur.

Rangers and Celtic aren't good enough. It's just a fact.

Ok points
1. Russian expulsion, they were already going to be ahead of Russia in the coefficient. Rangers pretty much over the past 4 seasons dragged the Scottish coefficient from 23rd to 8th FACT
2. Rangers have faced Danish opposition twice since their resurgence, comfortably beating Midtylland in the Europa league qualifying and taking 4/6 points off Brondby in the group stage last season. I can’t and won’t speak about how the other half of the OF have performed.
3. I know this will be painful for you to grasp but the Scottish league is the 8th best league in Europe and in terms of finance is there punching above it’s weight.
4. Rangers were ranked 33rd at the end of last season, at the point of the CL group stage draw they were ranked 29th, had that ranking been used in the CL draw they would have been in POT 3, but for a Ramsay penalty they would have been in pot 1

Saying they can’t compete is utter Love sacks, there is a mile of difference between saying they’ve performed poorly compared to last season and saying they can’t compete. If they ship the same amount of goals in the next 3 games and 0 points then you’d be moving toward a semblance of a point but we’re not there yet are we.

5. Civic.

[ralphjohn69]

I thought there might be more world cup chat on here.

Sadly FIFA and the Qatari leaders are not getting the world cup they deserve. In the sense that from a footballing perspective it has been pretty entertaining. Which means the coverage has not focused on the atrocities as much as it should have done.

Disagree, we should only be focussing on the football now (which, as you say, has been pretty good so far); we've had 10 years to debate the rights & wrongs of having the World Cup in Qatar but now that it is being played then the focus should only be on the football.

[Shotrock]

On another topic, now that Herschel Walker did not win the US Senate seat in Georgia (unbelievably close however), he can go back and finish 3rd grade.

Just kidding ... sort of ....

[Soul Requiem]

I thought there might be more world cup chat on here.

Sadly FIFA and the Qatari leaders are not getting the world cup they deserve. In the sense that from a footballing perspective it has been pretty entertaining. Which means the coverage has not focused on the atrocities as much as it should have done.

Disagree, we should only be focussing on the football now (which, as you say, has been pretty good so far); we've had 10 years to debate the rights & wrongs of having the World Cup in Qatar but now that it is being played then the focus should only be on the football.

Now is the exact time we should be talking about the inhumanity of Qatar, they treat migrant workers like slaves and shrug off the multitude of deaths.

[JAS]

I thought there might be more world cup chat on here.

Sadly FIFA and the Qatari leaders are not getting the world cup they deserve. In the sense that from a footballing perspective it has been pretty entertaining. Which means the coverage has not focused on the atrocities as much as it should have done.

Disagree, we should only be focussing on the football now (which, as you say, has been pretty good so far); we've had 10 years to debate the rights & wrongs of having the World Cup in Qatar but now that it is being played then the focus should only be on the football.

100% agree with you Ralph, we've had the guts of a decade to highlight it, I know I've certainly bitched about it and the financial corruption in football in general, this WC being a prime example of what we can end up with when we stick our hands in our ears and look the other way when money and power are doing things we find a bit distasteful...But...now that it's on, its too late, enjoy the football but learn the lesson when thinking about future venues.

[JAS]

I thought there might be more world cup chat on here.

Sadly FIFA and the Qatari leaders are not getting the world cup they deserve. In the sense that from a footballing perspective it has been pretty entertaining. Which means the coverage has not focused on the atrocities as much as it should have done.

Disagree, we should only be focussing on the football now (which, as you say, has been pretty good so far); we've had 10 years to debate the rights & wrongs of having the World Cup in Qatar but now that it is being played then the focus should only be on the football.

Now is the exact time we should be talking about the inhumanity of Qatar, they treat migrant workers like slaves and shrug off the multitude of deaths.

What do you think we should do then Soul? get all the quarter finalists together and get them to collectively say....we're not playing unless you sort yourselves out. I'm trying to get at what level of protest do you think will actually make a difference? and if there isn't one then why bother? The time for protesting was a) when it was awarded to Qatar or b) after the last world cup when they would have had time to change the Host.

I don't believe there is a collective will to ACTUALLY follow through on action. There is a collective abhorrence yes and rightly so but when it comes down to it nobody wants to really stick their heads above the parapet and force action and change, Christ England players even backed down from wearing dodgy armbands ffs!!

In a sense it's the same here, this country appears broken in so many ways but when people stand up and protest about things not being right they are flamed and demonised. We reap what we sow.

[super_realist]

It's all po faced nonsense.
All these "disgusted" people including the irksome Gary Lineker and Poundland Lineker, Gary Neville would, if they genuinely believed what they are on about would simply not turn up and would hold similar disdain for Golf, Tennis, Athletics, Boxing, F1, Cricket etc played in China, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, USA, Russia, Bahrain, Pakistan but of course they don't.

Why are the BBC even there? They love to be so holier than thou, but all their presenters are needlessly there, contributing to the tournament and country coffers by millions.

Selective outrage at its finest.

[superflyweight]

It's all po faced nonsense.
All these "disgusted" people including the irksome Gary Lineker and Poundland Lineker, Gary Neville would, if they genuinely believed what they are on about would simply not turn up and would hold similar disdain for Golf, Tennis, Athletics, Boxing, F1, Cricket etc played in China, Dubai, Saudi Arabia, USA, Russia, Bahrain, Pakistan but of course they don't.

Why are the BBC even there? They love to be so holier than thou, but all their presenters are needlessly there, contributing to the tournament and country coffers by millions.

Selective outrage at its finest.

Just what the internet needs, another d1ckhead making the point that you can't be critical of one thing unless you're critical of all things.

[super_realist]

It's all human rights isn't it? So if you criticise one country for their human rights, you ought to criticise them all.

Why only highlight Qatar, when it isn't even the worst offender?

[Soul Requiem]

It's all human rights isn't it? So if you criticise one country for their human rights, you ought to criticise them all.

Why only highlight Qatar, when it isn't even the worst offender?

That's such a pathetic argument. Qatar is in the news at the moment and the awarding of a major sporting event to a country that has such an abysmal human rights record needs to be highlighted regularly. This isn't about any other country, it's about Qatar.

[super_realist]

And whenever there's an event in another country all these people talking about Qatar have been..............silent.
Why is Qatar worse than anyone else? Why only speak out about Qatar?
Why doesn't Lineker for example boycott Newcastle United on MOTD?

[Soul Requiem]

And whenever there's an event in another country all these people talking about Qatar have been..............silent.
Why is Qatar worse than anyone else? Why only speak out about Qatar?
Why doesn't Lineker for example boycott Newcastle United on MOTD?

Yet more whataboutery.

[super_realist]

And whenever there's an event in another country all these people talking about Qatar have been..............silent.
Why is Qatar worse than anyone else? Why only speak out about Qatar?
Why doesn't Lineker for example boycott Newcastle United on MOTD?

Yet more whataboutery.

It isn't at all, it's about them being selective about what they attach themselves to and what they choose to ignore (despite often being worse). You can't seriously be suggesting that Lineker is right to ignore all other, more blatant human rights issues and only focus on Qatar?

I suspect that the vast majority of these people who go on about Qatar, don't actually give a toss about human rights ( or they'd be vocal about other countries too and be consistent) they simply want to show everyone how earnest and righteous they are by shedding their crocodile tears. It's about their image.
Remember Lineker is the climate moron who drives a V8 Merc, you can't take what he says seriously.

[superflyweight]

It's all human rights isn't it? So if you criticise one country for their human rights, you ought to criticise them all.

Why only highlight Qatar, when it isn't even the worst offender?

You'd lose your mind if Lineker used his platform to open a segment by saying "Welcome everybody to Doha for the quarter-final between Argentina and the Netherlands. Messi's huge in China so let's start by talking about the Genocide of Uyghurs in China".

[superflyweight]

And whenever there's an event in another country all these people talking about Qatar have been..............silent.
Why is Qatar worse than anyone else? Why only speak out about Qatar?
Why doesn't Lineker for example boycott Newcastle United on MOTD?

Yet more whataboutery.

It's such a reductive argument.

"Oi mate - what you going on about the holocaust for? Never once heard you say anything about the Armenian Genocide or have a pop at the Assyrians for their treatment of the Jews!"

[McLaren]

Super

I don't see how else to highlight issues other than focusing on specifics. What good would it do if people followed your advice and just said general statements like "human rights good" or "discrimination bad"?

I feel like the people who didn't understand BLM are the same people that don't get any of these issues.

[super_realist]

Super

I don't see how else to highlight issues other than focusing on specifics. What good would it do if people followed your advice and just said general statements like "human rights good" or "discrimination bad"?

I feel like the people who didn't understand BLM are the same people that don't get any of these issues.

Because Mac, these same people IGNORE far worse human rights issues to only focus on this. How does that mean you are trying to stand up for human rights of you are selective about what human rights you claim to stand up for.

Where was Linekers fake outrage during the Russian World Cup or the Beijing Olympics? He just brings it out when it suits him, bit he's happy to take the money for working there.

Are you talking about BLM as a sentiment or as a commie, Marxist movement that buys mansions?

[McLaren]

Are you talking about BLM as a sentiment or as a commie, Marxist movement that buys mansions?

You've taken a mighty big slurp of the koolaid.

[McLaren]

Because Mac, these same people IGNORE far worse human rights issues to only focus on this.

I don't get how you can know this?

And in any case there will never be a perfect path to all human rights being highlighted in the "consistent" manner you require. Does that mean that any concerns raised out of order should just be dismissed?

Could you maybe put together a hierarchy of human rights issues so I know where to start and end with my outrage?

[Duty281]

They did buy a lovely mansion though.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/black-lives-matter-co-founder-admits-using-mansion-bought-with-donations-kxxn7t2jv

[JAS]

They did buy a lovely mansion though.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/black-lives-matter-co-founder-admits-using-mansion-bought-with-donations-kxxn7t2jv

Well that just invalidates the whole movement and nobody anywhere, ever should have any sympathy for them ever again. Let police beatings resume unchallenged etc etc..... Or is that not quite what you mean, you'd be happy just to sow the seed in peoples minds that chips away at the validity of what they stand for instead? No doubt it'll work on some.

[Duty281]

They did buy a lovely mansion though.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/black-lives-matter-co-founder-admits-using-mansion-bought-with-donations-kxxn7t2jv

Well that just invalidates the whole movement and nobody anywhere, ever should have any sympathy for them ever again. Let police beatings resume unchallenged etc etc..... Or is that not quite what you mean, you'd be happy just to sow the seed in peoples minds that chips away at the validity of what they stand for instead? No doubt it'll work on some.

If you still think the Black Lives Matter organisation is primarily about helping black lives, then you're probably beyond help anyway.

[pedro]

Qatar isn’t only about human rights. It’s also about corruption, shady business dealings btw the French and Qatar governments, the leadership of the worlds biggest sport, the enourmous waste of ressources building 8 stadiums and having a country with absolutely ZIP football culture and history host the world biggest football event. It’s just so absurd in so many more ways than somebody (quite openly) coughing up the most in return for hosting a F1 race.

[JAS]

They did buy a lovely mansion though.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/black-lives-matter-co-founder-admits-using-mansion-bought-with-donations-kxxn7t2jv

Well that just invalidates the whole movement and nobody anywhere, ever should have any sympathy for them ever again. Let police beatings resume unchallenged etc etc..... Or is that not quite what you mean, you'd be happy just to sow the seed in peoples minds that chips away at the validity of what they stand for instead? No doubt it'll work on some.

If you still think the Black Lives Matter organisation is primarily about helping black lives, then you're probably beyond help anyway.

On go on then, humour me what is it primarily about? Just for the record I do find some aspects of the constant barrage of the messaging quite skewed & tiresome. There is a legitimate case for outrage at some of the things that have happened but blanket outrage about everything all the time probably doesn't help. Anyway, the floor is yours...what's it primarily about?

[JAS]

Meanwhile talking about Mansions, how do we like the look of this one (that we all helped pay for)?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/revealed-the-full-inside-story-of-the-michelle-mone-ppe-scandal

No wonder there's no money for the nurses...this is part of where a sizeable chunk of NHS cash effectively went. Anyone trying to justify the PPE medpro scandal on any level is basically illustrating why we are in the complete broken mess that we are in.

[navyblueshorts]

Qatar isn’t only about human rights. It’s also about corruption, shady business dealings btw the French and Qatar governments, the leadership of the worlds biggest sport, the enourmous waste of ressources building 8 stadiums and having a country with absolutely ZIP football culture and history host the world biggest football event. It’s just so absurd in so many more ways than somebody (quite openly) coughing up the most in return for hosting a F1 race.

Agreed. Also agree w/ S_R to an extent re. hypocrisy. Lineker et al shouldn't be there if issues w/ Qatar are a problem for them - not like they need the money they're no doubt being paid.

I guess when it comes down to it, most people will take the cash and scruples be damned...

[navyblueshorts]

Meanwhile talking about Mansions, how do we like the look of this one (that we all helped pay for)?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/revealed-the-full-inside-story-of-the-michelle-mone-ppe-scandal

No wonder there's no money for the nurses...this is part of where a sizeable chunk of NHS cash effectively went.  Anyone trying to justify the PPE medpro scandal on any level is basically illustrating why we are in the complete broken mess that we are in.

Yep. Pretty reprehensible. Doesn't justify a ~19% pay demand, though, especially when all any of them shout about is "We don't do this for the money. Patient safety blah blah blah...". Of course it's about the money. If not, why are you asking for 19%? Just once I'd like the media to ask a few questions like:

1. What are your contracted hours/shift patterns?
   
2. Are you paid for extra shifts?
   
3. Do you volunteer for any such shifts?
   
4. Do you refuse extra shifts, but are happy to do Bank shifts at a higher rate of pay?
   
5. Do you refuse overtime, but at the same time work for an agency?
   
6. Is it true your contract includes 6 months full-pay sick leave?
   
7. Would you consider work during the pandemic a standard job expectation of someone signing on as a nurse in the NHS?
   
8. Would you consider a starting salary of ~£30k reasonable for someone typically in their early 20s?
   
9. Etc...
   

Their lot isn't all sweetness and light, but the accepted wisdom that they're all selfless saints really sticks in my throat.

[McLaren]

Navy

I don't think there is an issue with BBC personnel being there in the capacity of reporting on a newsworthy event. Which the WC and surrounding issues are. What I don't get is how quickly actually reporting on the wider issues was abandoned. The pre match should be packed with investigative journalism about the corruption and human rights issues committed be FIFA and Qatar. Alan Shearer crying about England going out just doesn't cut it.

[ralphjohn69]

Navy

I don't think there is an issue with BBC personnel being there in the capacity of reporting on a newsworthy event. Which the WC and surrounding issues are. What I don't get is how quickly actually reporting on the wider issues was abandoned. The pre match should be packed with investigative journalism about the corruption and human rights issues committed be FIFA and Qatar. Alan Shearer crying about England going out just doesn't cut it.

No it shouldn't, it should be about the match that's coming up, nothing more, nothing less. 90%+ of the people watching have little or no interest in the other stuff, or "sportswashing" (give me strength).

[Soul Requiem]

Navy

I don't think there is an issue with BBC personnel being there in the capacity of reporting on a newsworthy event. Which the WC and surrounding issues are. What I don't get is how quickly actually reporting on the wider issues was abandoned. The pre match should be packed with investigative journalism about the corruption and human rights issues committed be FIFA and Qatar. Alan Shearer crying about England going out just doesn't cut it.

No it shouldn't, it should be about the match that's coming up, nothing more, nothing less.  90%+ of the people watching have little or no interest in the other stuff, or "sportswashing" (give me strength).

I reckon 73% do have an interest, 21% don't have an interest and 6% are undecided*.

*numbers plucked from my own head

[JAS]

Meanwhile talking about Mansions, how do we like the look of this one (that we all helped pay for)?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/revealed-the-full-inside-story-of-the-michelle-mone-ppe-scandal

No wonder there's no money for the nurses...this is part of where a sizeable chunk of NHS cash effectively went.  Anyone trying to justify the PPE medpro scandal on any level is basically illustrating why we are in the complete broken mess that we are in.

Yep. Pretty reprehensible. Doesn't justify a ~19% pay demand, though, especially when all any of them shout about is "We don't do this for the money. Patient safety blah blah blah...". Of course it's about the money. If not, why are you asking for 19%? Just once I'd like the media to ask a few questions like:

1. What are your contracted hours/shift patterns?
   
2. Are you paid for extra shifts?
   
3. Do you volunteer for any such shifts?
   
4. Do you refuse extra shifts, but are happy to do Bank shifts at a higher rate of pay?
   
5. Do you refuse overtime, but at the same time work for an agency?
   
6. Is it true your contract includes 6 months full-pay sick leave?
   
7. Would you consider work during the pandemic a standard job expectation of someone signing on as a nurse in the NHS?
   
8. Would you consider a starting salary of ~£30k reasonable for someone typically in their early 20s?
   
9. Etc...
   

Their lot isn't all sweetness and light, but the accepted wisdom that they're all selfless saints really sticks in my throat.

.

While I wait on my nursy niece getting back to me with answers to the above….
Have you ever bargained/bartered for anything Navy? I’m assuming yes and consequently you’ll understand the concept of an opening position??
19% might on the face of it seem ridiculous but…
How many nursing vacancies are there in the NHS (so many that the agency nurse sector is booming)
How many times in the past 12 years have this shower got a recommendation (which are constrained within certain parameters anyway) from the “independent” pay review body and ignored it on the low side?
How much more does a nurse do/is responsible for than say 20 years ago?
If nurses are leaving the profession in droves, the ones that are left will naturally be left with more workload and responsibility, so by definition of being overworked a nurse is more likely to make a mistake. Making a mistake stacking shelves is neither here nor there, making a mistake looking after human life is quite another, their pay should reflect better that huge responsibility.

The other tripe that gets trotted out is “oh we can’t give them crazy pay rises, it’ll cause runaway inflation” What utter Love sacks, inflation arrived completely unassisted by massive pay rises across the public sector. Paying public sector workers more does NOT spiral inflation. That whole concept needs challenging. I get the “we pay employees more we have to raise our prices, we raise our prices people need more money to pay for them so ask for bigger pay rises. The ONLY way that argument becomes valid for nurses (or doctors for that matter) is if there are plans to completely monetise the NHS and abandon the free at the point of use ethic.

[McLaren]

Ralph

I would expect the BBC to hold itself to higher standards than what the moronic general public want.

[navyblueshorts]

Navy

I don't think there is an issue with BBC personnel being there in the capacity of reporting on a newsworthy event. Which the WC and surrounding issues are. What I don't get is how quickly actually reporting on the wider issues was abandoned. The pre match should be packed with investigative journalism about the corruption and human rights issues committed be FIFA and Qatar. Alan Shearer crying about England going out just doesn't cut it.

Anyone there as a BBC reporter/pundit specifically covering the WC matches should do just that, and nothing more. If they have any issue w/ Qatar, their human rights record etc, they should have stayed away, especially if they wished to comment.

Other investigative journalists who're charged w/ investigating Qatar's record re. human rights etc are another kettle of fish.

[navyblueshorts]

Meanwhile talking about Mansions, how do we like the look of this one (that we all helped pay for)?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/revealed-the-full-inside-story-of-the-michelle-mone-ppe-scandal

No wonder there's no money for the nurses...this is part of where a sizeable chunk of NHS cash effectively went.  Anyone trying to justify the PPE medpro scandal on any level is basically illustrating why we are in the complete broken mess that we are in.

Yep. Pretty reprehensible. Doesn't justify a ~19% pay demand, though, especially when all any of them shout about is "We don't do this for the money. Patient safety blah blah blah...". Of course it's about the money. If not, why are you asking for 19%? Just once I'd like the media to ask a few questions like:

1. What are your contracted hours/shift patterns?
   
2. Are you paid for extra shifts?
   
3. Do you volunteer for any such shifts?
   
4. Do you refuse extra shifts, but are happy to do Bank shifts at a higher rate of pay?
   
5. Do you refuse overtime, but at the same time work for an agency?
   
6. Is it true your contract includes 6 months full-pay sick leave?
   
7. Would you consider work during the pandemic a standard job expectation of someone signing on as a nurse in the NHS?
   
8. Would you consider a starting salary of ~£30k reasonable for someone typically in their early 20s?
   
9. Etc...
   

Their lot isn't all sweetness and light, but the accepted wisdom that they're all selfless saints really sticks in my throat.

.

While I wait on my nursy niece getting back to me with answers to the above….
Have you ever bargained/bartered for anything Navy? I’m assuming yes and consequently you’ll understand the concept of an opening position??
19% might on the face of it seem ridiculous but…
How many nursing vacancies are there in the NHS (so many that the agency nurse sector is booming)
How many times in the past 12 years have this shower got a recommendation (which are constrained within certain parameters anyway) from the “independent” pay review body and ignored it on the low side?
How much more does a nurse do/is responsible for than say 20 years ago?
If nurses are leaving the profession in droves, the ones that are left will naturally be left with more workload and responsibility, so by definition of being overworked a nurse is more likely to make a mistake. Making a mistake stacking shelves is neither here nor there, making a mistake looking after human life is quite another, their pay should reflect better that huge responsibility.

The other tripe that gets trotted out is “oh we can’t give them crazy pay rises, it’ll cause runaway inflation” What utter Love sacks, inflation arrived completely unassisted by massive pay rises across the public sector. Paying public sector workers more does NOT spiral inflation. That whole concept needs challenging. I get the “we pay employees more we have to raise our prices, we raise our prices people need more money to pay for them so ask for bigger pay rises. The ONLY way that argument becomes valid for nurses (or doctors for that matter) is if there are plans to completely monetise the NHS and abandon the free at the point of use ethic.

I agree w/ a lot of what you say and there's plenty of nuance and 'grey' in this. I find it annoying that the public's perception of all nurses as intellectual giants with selfless intentions etc as nauseating.

I disagree w/ you on pay increases and any influence on inflation.

The agency situation is a disgrace. Happens w/ the doctors as well. Not sure what the solution is, though, as think it's here to stay. Think the NHS is done for as it's currently assumed to work TBH - won't be that long until health is insurance-based, same as elsewhere.

TBH, I don't mind if the nurses get a big pay rise, but (and it's a big but) that should go hand-in-hand with changes, including in the attitude of too many and the quality of service. Decent pay should go hand-in-hand with high standards.

[navyblueshorts]

Hi JAS. Did some of your research for you. Not a bad gig, all being told:

https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/NHS-conditions-of-employment

https://www.nhsemployers.org/publications/tchandbook

Overtime, plenty of sick pay, decent holidays, annual pay increments (outside of national pay awards), 37.5 hours per week, flexibility, etc. Doesn't seem too bad to be honest...

[JAS]

Hi JAS. Did some of your research for you. Not a bad gig, all being told:

https://www.rcn.org.uk/employment-and-pay/NHS-conditions-of-employment

https://www.nhsemployers.org/publications/tchandbook

Overtime, plenty of sick pay, decent holidays, annual pay increments (outside of national pay awards), 37.5 hours per week, flexibility, etc. Doesn't seem too bad to be honest...

Good stuff, I’ve spent the last couple of days worrying if I might need them, finally tested positive for Covid after an absolutely horrific night of shivers and lymph glands in overtime. Being clinically vulnerable I did fear catching it. After 2-3 quite awful days, I think I’m turning the corner.

[BlueCoverman]

Wish you a speedy recovery JAS. I avoided it until end of January and it wasn’t pleasant, I had five days when I couldn’t get out of bed. I honestly think that if I hadn’t had the two vaccinations and booster then I would have been a hospital case.

[super_realist]

Meanwhile talking about Mansions, how do we like the look of this one (that we all helped pay for)?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/revealed-the-full-inside-story-of-the-michelle-mone-ppe-scandal

No wonder there's no money for the nurses...this is part of where a sizeable chunk of NHS cash effectively went.  Anyone trying to justify the PPE medpro scandal on any level is basically illustrating why we are in the complete broken mess that we are in.

Yep. Pretty reprehensible. Doesn't justify a ~19% pay demand, though, especially when all any of them shout about is "We don't do this for the money. Patient safety blah blah blah...". Of course it's about the money. If not, why are you asking for 19%? Just once I'd like the media to ask a few questions like:

1. What are your contracted hours/shift patterns?
   
2. Are you paid for extra shifts?
   
3. Do you volunteer for any such shifts?
   
4. Do you refuse extra shifts, but are happy to do Bank shifts at a higher rate of pay?
   
5. Do you refuse overtime, but at the same time work for an agency?
   
6. Is it true your contract includes 6 months full-pay sick leave?
   
7. Would you consider work during the pandemic a standard job expectation of someone signing on as a nurse in the NHS?
   
8. Would you consider a starting salary of ~£30k reasonable for someone typically in their early 20s?
   
9. Etc...
   

Their lot isn't all sweetness and light, but the accepted wisdom that they're all selfless saints really sticks in my throat.

.

While I wait on my nursy niece getting back to me with answers to the above….
Have you ever bargained/bartered for anything Navy? I’m assuming yes and consequently you’ll understand the concept of an opening position??
19% might on the face of it seem ridiculous but…
How many nursing vacancies are there in the NHS (so many that the agency nurse sector is booming)
How many times in the past 12 years have this shower got a recommendation (which are constrained within certain parameters anyway) from the “independent” pay review body and ignored it on the low side?
How much more does a nurse do/is responsible for than say 20 years ago?
If nurses are leaving the profession in droves, the ones that are left will naturally be left with more workload and responsibility, so by definition of being overworked a nurse is more likely to make a mistake. Making a mistake stacking shelves is neither here nor there, making a mistake looking after human life is quite another, their pay should reflect better that huge responsibility.

The other tripe that gets trotted out is “oh we can’t give them crazy pay rises, it’ll cause runaway inflation” What utter Love sacks, inflation arrived completely unassisted by massive pay rises across the public sector. Paying public sector workers more does NOT spiral inflation. That whole concept needs challenging. I get the “we pay employees more we have to raise our prices, we raise our prices people need more money to pay for them so ask for bigger pay rises. The ONLY way that argument becomes valid for nurses (or doctors for that matter) is if there are plans to completely monetise the NHS and abandon the free at the point of use ethic.

I agree w/ a lot of what you say and there's plenty of nuance and 'grey' in this. I find it annoying that the public's perception of all nurses as intellectual giants with selfless intentions etc as nauseating.

I disagree w/ you on pay increases and any influence on inflation.

The agency situation is a disgrace. Happens w/ the doctors as well. Not sure what the solution is, though, as think it's here to stay. Think the NHS is done for as it's currently assumed to work TBH - won't be that long until health is insurance-based, same as elsewhere.

TBH, I don't mind if the nurses get a big pay rise, but (and it's a big but) that should go hand-in-hand with changes, including in the attitude of too many and the quality of service. Decent pay should go hand-in-hand with high standards.

The NHS is a mess, it needs serious reform and not treated like a national untouchable religion.
It needs to behave more like a business in terms of its practice (without seeking profit), it's woefully inefficient, profligate, wasteful, disjointed, over managed and gets worse results than virtually every other health system in the developed world.

[navyblueshorts]

Interesting article from Mary Dejevsky in the Independent, here.

If you can't access, got a bit naughty and here's the text of it:

Spoiler:

There were quite a lot of linked sources in the article, but can't be arsed to deal with them in the above...

[super_realist]

Sensible views. Totally agree that part of the problem is that so many people in the UK are under the impression the NHS is the greatest thing since sliced bread. These same people seem to think that if you dare to criticise the NHS then this means you MUST be advocating for a US style system completely ignoring there is every other developed country that runs a better health system, still free at the point of delivery by and large and definitely free for those who can't afford it.

There's a good reason why no one has copied the NHS.

[super_realist]

Tumbleweed

[JAS]

Happy New Year fellow Choppers, hope you all had a good festive period. My Covid started getting better leading up to Xmas then my peak flow started to nose dive on Xmas eve, Boxing Day was scary but got seen on 27th and got steroids, recovery then started properly. Feel ok now as long as I don’t over exert myself but I think it took a bigger gouge out of me than I originally thought it was going to. Going to be a fairly long and careful road back to what I consider fit.

I look at the carnage being reported in the news re the NHS and think on the one hand, Christ, I was lucky. On the other hand I know my lungs aren’t the best and so I take care and monitor any fluctuations in my Athsma like a hawk. Definitely not a couple of weeks I’d like to repeat any time soon.

[super_realist]

Get well soon JAS.
Seems to affect lefties more.

[incontinentia]

Pretty shocking by today's standards, but no-one in the studio seemed to bat an eyelid at the time. The comment is at 1:00.

[super_realist]

Pretty shocking by today's standards, but no-one in the studio seemed to bat an eyelid at the time. The comment is at 1:00.

Doing a bit of woke archaeology?

[incontinentia]

Doing a bit of woke archaeology?

Nah it just showed up on my youtube feed recently.

Happy New Year.

[incontinentia]

For 2023, I hope people can stop the craze of using the word "literally" in every sentence, mostly unnecessarily and often incorrectly. It needs to stop right away.

[super_realist]

For 2023, I hope people can stop the craze of using the word "literally" in every sentence, mostly unnecessarily and often incorrectly. It needs to stop right away.

I would love that too. I will add that I would also dearly welcome the end of scatter gun use of "like" in sentences, rising intonation at the end of ordinary sentences and a firing squad for anyone using "bested" or "my bad"

[JuliusHMarx]

For 2023, I hope people can stop the craze of using the word "literally" in every sentence, mostly unnecessarily and often incorrectly. It needs to stop right away.

It's annoying. Some people literally use it in every sentence.

[navyblueshorts]

Pretty shocking by today's standards, but no-one in the studio seemed to bat an eyelid at the time. The comment is at 1:00.

Umm, this was 1990, ~32 years ago. Yep, a pretty dire remark, but can understand why it didn't cause the same furore then.

[BlueCoverman]

Geoff obviously had a premonition that Paul Parker was going to deflect Brehme's free kick over Peter Shilton and into the net to give Germany the lead! 

[Sponsored content]