England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

Last 12 months Marchant along with Steward one of few Eng backs who enhanced their credentials playing for Eng I think.
Aside from breakthroughs like JvP.

Does Eddie actually know what hes doing...genuine question.

That's a tricky one! We have to hope he does but as outsiders looking it it often appears not. Maybe he has a grand plan that will culminate in WC win but given progress France and Ireland have made over last year both in results and manner of play I'm having doubts.

Looks like Marler going down the Hancock route of burning bridges!

Marchant may not have shone, but there is/was also nobody particularly demanding selection ahead of him either. If you consider him to have been the man in possession of the shirt at the start of the tour to Australia, there wasn’t really a player that you’d think ‘Wow, he’d be much better’. I wouldn’t necessarily say that Porter was a particularly memorable replacement either.

We really need somebody to stand up and demand the shirt. For now, it will be Tuilagi, but for how long? I’ll be amazed if he lasts the whole series, what then? Slade to come back in? Like others, I also like the cut of WJ’s jib, but he is very young and raw. Would it be worth throwing him in and sticking with him through a few shaky performances? It hasn’t worked well of Marchant. I’m wary of the ever rolling conveyor belt of discarded talent.

It feels wrong to be this close to a world cup and be this unsure about a key position.

Poorfour wrote:It’s tough to judge Marchant (or any other player in the backline) on the opportunities he’s been given, because it’s been a backline in transition in both style of play and personnel, and the position that probably suffers the most when things don’t gel is outside centre. If the backline isn’t firing, they see the ball less than any other position, and if the defence isn’t working they’re probably the most exposed position.

I would have liked to see Jones persist with Marchant because of how he plays off Smith for Quins, and because in the heads-up game that Eddie seems to be working towards there isn’t a better attacking 13. But it’s clear that this autumn marks a shift in Eddie’s thinking and personnel (something I’ve had off the record from one player not selected) and Marchant apparently doesn’t fit those plans. To be fair, if the expectation is that Manu is fit, then Slade and Farrell are probably the better options to pair with him, but if he gets injured again we;re back to Farrell and Slade which I don’t think is necessarily the best option.

I'm hoping Joseph gets his chance before we go back to Slade. Jones does want a playmaker in midfield, and I personally prefer that too, just don't think Slade is that person.

What are peoples expectations and hopes then for this set of games?

Personally from a results perspective I do expect at least 3 wins, think we stand a very good chance of 4 out of 4.

My hopes rest on us actually demonstrating cohesion in the back line! I think Tuilagi helps that massively, but as above I'm hoping that Joseph gets plenty of game time and actually puts serious pressure on the first choice midfield of Farrell and Manu. It would be great to see the conveyor belt of wingers in the squad so fingers crossed Murley and Freeman have stormers. The obvious one for me, leaving the AIs with 2 new scrum halfs who together have played every minute.

And Jack Willis back in an England shirt.

I think as been case for literally years too much rests on Manu being fit. Chances of him surviving all matches not great on past history and as we know Jones hasn't sorted a replacement he's happy with. That's crux of issue for me.
If Manu goes down first 10 mins against Arg what then

Im genuinely bored of our hopes resting on Manu....

Agreed Geordie
On plus side I'm in hospital post shoulder op. Due out today so as arm in sling for 6:weeks perfect excuse to sit on arse in front of TV all weekend and overdose on AIs.

They don't solely rest on Tuilagi but it's no great surprise that better players can help create a better team. This is when Tuilagi doesn't start at all vs Argentina and we see Cokansiga at 12.

Ouch, hope you feel better soon mm.

Cheers.
I can see Joe C at 13, not sure he'd cope at 12 but he'd create some holes!

No 7&1/2 wrote:They don't solely rest on Tuilagi but it's no great surprise that better players can help create a better team. This is when Tuilagi doesn't start at all vs Argentina and we see Cokansiga at 12.

Ouch, hope you feel better soon mm.

Im not questioning his ability on the pitch...im questioning his ability to GET ON the pitch...which for a long time has been the issue.

13 has been an issue for a longtime. I dont think since Jonathan Joseph in his prime have we had a real quality one. Maybe young Will can change that...but at the moment Marchant is the standout performer in that position who is Eq..

If he wants more bulk in there what about having a sneaky look at Northmore or someone?

Id dread to see Cockasaniga at 13...offensively fine...but defensively it would be like an oil tanker turning...

As of now though he is fit. I'd start him. The other side of things is that the guy is box office; people want to see him play rugby. It is an entertainment biz!

Again i dont dispute that...merely the fact we havnt seen box office for a long time...and Marchant has been at most levels.

That goes back to the earlier discussion. I like Marchant but he's not put in an un-droppable England performance as of yet. I reckon we'll see Farrell Tuilagi and Porter on the bench anyway.

I'm quite fearful we see Itoje at 6. And Youngs at 9. And Malins left wing.

Aw i hope we dont see Itoje at 6.

Put Tizzard in alongside him...tell him to do the Kruis role, get Itoje doing what he does best..and get Jack Willis at 6.

From the squad picked lets go...

1 Genge
2 LCD
3 Sinkler
4 Tizzard
5 Itoje
6 J.Willis
7 Curry
8 Billy V

The only thing that lacks is some real height...and if we're taking a pounding in the lineout (which i dont think we will be) we can bring Hill on for height and Robinson for Lineout excellence.

Thats the pack I'd pick. Would personally be going with Ribbans and Simmonds on the bench though. It'll probably be a 6 2 though.

Happy with those on the bench...though id still prefer Earl in the squad over Simmonds.

Seen a fair amount of people saying that they want him in the side ahead of Curry....which I just don't agree with. He's another guy that hasn't really done much in a white shirt when given opportunity. Can't see Simmonds being in the match day squad for the rest should Dombrandt not re injure himself.

Curry has been doing exactly the job required of him. He doesn't have to be eye catching to everybody - just the ones who picked him.

Centres.

Lawrence - really depends on how he's developed in the last year or two (and the Worcs situation won't help) but he didn't shine for England - albeit he almost never got the ball.
Marchant should be the heir apparent - but again I don't think he's clicked for England. See 'Lawrence' above to some extent.
Porter - has actually done the job required. May not be as talented as the other 2 but fitted the style of game played better.

Yes but as Poorfour said previously, has the backline and tactics been set up to allow some of these players to really shine and show what they can do best...? i dont think it has.

Lawrence looks motivated now in his games for bath...that could really push him on.

I'll second the calls for Tizard. From a Quins perspective it's been really annoying how easily he's slipped into playing the Kruis role alongside Itoje, but from an England perspective it's great. I think Itoje works better when there's someone who can shoulder a lot of the technical stuff in the setpiece and give him a bit more freedom to be a nuisance, and Tizard looks much more like that player than any of the other candidates.

Well we're being subjected to Youngs again then. Porter and Joseph are both our as is Mcguigan.
No Murley either.

Looks likely to be

Genge lcd sinckler
Itoje Hill
?  Curry
Vunipola
Youngs Smith
May farrell tuilagi nowell
Steward

Vunipola Singleton heyes ? ? Simmonds van Poortvliet slade

Reckon the question marks will be ribbans Robinson and Willis but don't know who makes the starting lineup.

Well once again...I think hrs got it wrong...but what do I know....

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well we're being subjected to Youngs again then. Porter and Joseph are both our as is Mcguigan.
No Murley either.

Looks likely to be

Genge lcd sinckler
Itoje Hill
?  Curry
Vunipola
Youngs Smith
May farrell tuilagi nowell
Steward

Vunipola Singleton heyes ? ? Simmonds van Poortvliet slade

Reckon the question marks will be ribbans Robinson and Willis but don't know who makes the starting lineup.  

ffs

Willis has to start at 6.

So ...team lineup to be named likely to be...

1.Genge
2.LCD
3.Sinkler
4.Itoje
5.Hill
6.Willis
7.Curry
8.Billy

9. Youngs
10. Smith
11. Nowell
12. Farrell
13. Manu
14. Cokasaniga
15. Steward

Geordie wrote:Willis has to start at 6.

I have a sneaking suspicion that Eddie will go with Coles at 6. Will give him some extra bulk up front and that third lineout option he likes. Against the big Puma pack that wouldn't be a terrible idea though I fear we'll also see the 6/2 bench split with just JVP and Slade as the backs.

Saw someone mention Northmore further up but he's injured I think. Porter is there as the centre with a bit more power option but given he's missed two games with concussion then not had chance to play for two weeks it's hardly a surprise he's not included in the 25 either.

Harsh not to include Quirke, his speed of pass is outstanding. He's not particularly quick at the breakdown, probably similar to Youngs or slower, but the pass is a laser guided missile that makes up for it. If you are going to play a running 10 surely you'd want him running onto that. Youngs has at least been playing well and running more with the ball so he should tie in defenders. Of course Eddie could leave JVP in the shirt as he looked entirely comfortable in it during the summer. Hopefully Quirke gets a go vs Japan.

May being included probably means he starts on the left wing, Eddie likes his risk averse box kicking game outside the opposition third of the pitch and May is a great kick chase option as well as a finisher.

1.Genge 2.LCD 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Tizard 6.Willis 7.Curry 8.Vunipola
9.JvP 10.Smith 11.May 12.Farrell 13.Tuilagi 14.Nowell 15.Steward

16.Singleton 17.Mako 18.Heyes 19.Hill 20.Simmonds 21.Youngs 22.Slade 23.Cokanasiga

I'd go with that from that squad I think. Quite like the look of it too!

Tizard ain't there.

You've got to think that Hill will start.

I wouldn't be hugely surprised to see:

4. Hill
5. Itoje
6. Robinson
7. Curry
8. Billy V

Yeah I can see him being parachuted straight in there, or Itoje being moved. Few combos of that we could have. Just makes me think that the WC final has scarred Jones too much. Bar the fact he's still bloody playing Youngs.

Sorry but May isn't he player he was. A few years ago he was arguably best wing in world but not convinced on him him now. He's been out with elbow and now straight back in. I don't think he's as quick as he was and I think his confidence gone bit. Dunno hopefully he'll prove me wrong but him and Nowell wings we've seen so many times.

Rumours my team above might be right...with the exception of Coles starting at 6.

Geordie wrote:Rumours my team above might be right...with the exception of Coles starting at 6.

Coles ahead of Willis would be a bit controversial!

Yeah but would follow what Jones wants in a 6...a lock forward...

It would definitely follow. We've played some scintillating stuff since we moved away from 2 proper flankers post the world cup.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tizard ain't there.

Ah, yes. My bad. I'd go with Hill starting and Ribbans on the bench then. As critical as I've been of Hill's inconsistency I do still think he's a decent player, probably a bit stronger than Ribbans. I'd just rather invest in Tizard and Chessum (injured of course) now.

Most sides are operating with a very strong lineout option in the back row these days. It's an interesting change. Time will tell if it's just players getting bigger (hence more jumpers in the back row due to height) or analysis causing a shift in priorities. As analysis comes into most sports through professionalism you do tend to see fundamental changes in the game as teams realise what to prioritise.

France are stacked with tall back rows that are strong jumpers in Woki, Ollivon and Aldritt with Woki probably the best jumper in rugby. The Boks have PSdT at 6, favoured Mostert there when du Toit was injured. Ireland have Doris, Conan and POM as jumping options. Argentina use Kremer and Petti in the back row. New Zealand have used Frizzell and Barrett.

Wales haven't gone down that path but in Beard they have a Matfield or Kruis level lineout leader and jumper. He is genuinely outstanding there. Plus he's paired with AWJ at full strength. Even then the Welsh lineout has been up and down.

Scotland don't tend to field a jumper in the back row either but their lineout is frequently mince. Australia have Valentini as the closest thing but again aren't a monument to consistency at the moment.

It's one of those things I'm a bit torn on. I'm a big fan of Lawes at 6 as I think he's terrific there and it's massively extended the peak of his career whereas I strongly believe staying at lock would've broken his body by now with the miles on that clock. I'd definitely pick Willis over Coles or Robinson though for instance. At the same time when I see so many international coaches following a similar path I can't help but wonder if there is something very clear cut there for those who spend more time studying the game than anyone else and have access to any data the game collects - which admittedly in rugby is still not a huge amount!

Tipuric is a class lineout operator too. I think it's bulk for the scrum that haunts Jones as much as anything. But then we still have Mako in there too so maybe you're right.

I am guessing Alex Coles is getting a close look because his fitness levels are superior, is playing great, and is very strong in the scrum.  That, of course, qualifies him for nothing at the next level but he has been playing great for Saints and is the fittest player in the squad in Saints annual fitness competition:  https://rugbyonslaught.com/northamptons-117kg-lock-smashes-their-gruelling-fitness-challenge/
That ain't no easy thing.

I think Coles will be fine at the next level:  He will add bulk and strength and gets around very well.

I think, however, Ribbans is the perfect bench second row option.  He is very much a seek and destroy player, strong, physical, and talented.
 He is strong in the scrum, is talented in the lineout, and coming off the bench will be a force.

There certainly seems to be some younger talent in the lock dept. coming through, given that Lawes, Launchbury are at the tail end of careers and Kruis has already gone. These guys need exposure and it needs to happen now if heaven forbid Itoje gets injured.

The lock situation is going to be fascinating in a few years, theres a host of kids from 6'7 to 6'10 coming through.... going to be interesting to see who makes the grade (even just at prem level) and who can push on to international level.

Geordie wrote:The lock situation is going to be fascinating in a few years, theres a host of kids from 6'7 to 6'10 coming through.... going to be interesting to see who makes the grade (even just at prem level) and who can push on to international level.

Very true. Tizard, Isiekwe, Ollie Chessum and Coles are all under 25 still. Alfie Bell the former Wasps lock, Richards at Bath, Lewis Chessum at Tigers are all looking promising. Some big and mobile lads in there. Richards at Bath looks particularly promising in the loose and isn't small.

Ben Bamber and Alex Groves at Sale Sam...both 6'9 and only 21.

Apparently Lawes set to miss the whole AI's due to still having concussion symptoms....very concerning! Irrelevant of rugby i hope this isnt gonig to be an issue furhter down the line in his personal life..

In a way, this is good news for the issues of visibility in England and a reassurance that it is taken seriously at the top level. I'd have felt more uncomfortable had he be seen to pass the protocols and be parachuted in.

Geordie wrote:Apparently Lawes set to miss the whole AI's due to still having concussion symptoms....very concerning! Irrelevant of rugby i hope this isnt gonig to be an issue furhter down the line in his personal life..

That's been my concern for players like Sam Underhill. Several concussions playing rugby so you wonder how it'll affect them 10/15/20 years down line.

Lawes is still suffering the symtoms of a hit in September i believe...thats a long time for just one hit...isnt it?