England post 2022 6Ns, Aus tour and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Hate to say it and I don't wish him injured but I'm glad Ewels not available!
If you're disappointed with Malins and Daly being selected, imagine how most of us feel about Youngs being there.
In fairness, Malins and Daly been superb this season but please give Radwan and Arundell a run.

What did the game this week end teach u?
It showed us that after 5 minutes or so England are prdicTible in how they are going to play the game.

Farrell going for a shot a goal instead og kicking for the corner.  somw/moat of our players  are too old and need replacing. Mako, Billy v, Jamie gorge.
Manu his best days are behind him.
Our back line needs sorting out,

Overall the team need a complete rebuild before the next RWC.

Even if they sack Jones and are able to appoint a new coach immediately, when would be the first time he has access to players in training. Couple weeks before 6N? Difficult to get new tactics drilled in then especially as hopefully he'll be picking new players and they would need to gel with existing squad.

Lot's of ifs and buts and although I think Jones time is well up I think getting the right man for the job and in place be tough call plus then would he have enough time to achieve something.

Oakdene wrote:

Heaf wrote:I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

Sorry there's no way you can have it worse than me supporting Wales & the Scarlets.

TJ wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

Heaf wrote:I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

Sorry there's no way you can have it worse than me supporting Wales & the Scarlets.

Scotland and Edinburgh?  Thats me.  they give you a glimmer of hope then its dashed into bitter tears.  the really upsetting thing is I was born in the west country.  I could have been a Bath and England fan and won a few things but no - my parents moved to Scotland.  40 years of pain

I might have to give it to you based on the longer term view

How about Georgia and Ealing? Geniune cases for a shot at the top table but perpetually blocked by vested interests, bureaucracy and the powers that be.

Heaf wrote:

TJ wrote:

Oakdene wrote:

Heaf wrote:I can trump all of the above - I support England and London Irish - Although I suppose at least LI are entertaining at times ...

Sorry there's no way you can have it worse than me supporting Wales & the Scarlets.

Scotland and Edinburgh?  Thats me.  they give you a glimmer of hope then its dashed into bitter tears.  the really upsetting thing is I was born in the west country.  I could have been a Bath and England fan and won a few things but no - my parents moved to Scotland.  40 years of pain

I might have to give it to you based on the longer term view

Its the hope that gets you. When we were properly rubbish we had no hope. Now we have hope but it keeps getting dashed

Poorfour wrote:How about Georgia and Ealing? Geniune cases for a shot at the top table but perpetually blocked by vested interests, bureaucracy and the powers that be.

Anyone one supporting both those two must be real masochists - bit of a small group though I'd think ...

Sorry a different subject but has anyone seen the latest rule change proposal ..about a power sin bin. The captain of the opposition can make one play a game where they nominate an opposition player to hit the bin for 10 mins?

Please tell me this is a wind up...not actually a proposal they are considering...

Saw it - then checked it wasn't April 1st - absolutely stupid idea

I see Sir clive woodward saying Eddie Jones should be sacked. ok fine letthe RFU sack Eddie Jones and let the big SIR CLIVE TAKE OVER. He took En land to 20030world champions Let's see if he can do it again.

If he can then he is the greatest coach England ever had. n shut ther hell up.

Geordie wrote:Sorry a different subject but has anyone seen the latest rule change proposal  ..about a power sin bin. The captain of the opposition can make one play a game where they nominate an opposition player to hit the bin for 10 mins?

Please tell me this is a wind up...not actually a proposal they are considering...

Yeah cause every game will be more watchable with each side's best player missing for 10 minutes. It's sport not a TV game show.

Tbf it would be funny seeing the likes of Farrell, Sexton or Faf getting binned every single game as they piss off the opposition!

Nic White as well, losing his mind as he's sent off at the 30's mark.

In fact I now love this idea.

mountain man wrote:Not all commentators are holding back now, Flatman on Prem highlights show now saying replace Jones immediately as still time before RWC. He's as sick of it as rest of us are.

Just heard Flatman on his podcast with Tom Shanklin. His initial reaction was to think there's not enough time ahead of the World Cup but, after hearing reactions from others, and sleeping on it, he changed his mind. He thinks Jones has just lost his ability to motivate the players, and England supporters are losing interest at a rapid rate.

Danny Care was interesting on the BBC podcast. As he is still an outside contender, he couldn't say too much. However, he did push back a little on the idea Jones is a remorseless dictator. When he rejoined the squad for the tour, he found a happy camp, and felt Jones was giving the players more room to breathe. Care wonders whether a lot of that was down to Courtney Lawes, who has been missing throughout the Autumn.

Jones can remain a great coach, and still be someone who has overstayed his welcome. Most coaches do. A number of people associated with the Baa-Baas have said how energizing it has been under ROG and Scott Robertson, so there are people in the sport who can change the mood quickly. Jones himself did that when he first took over England.

There's a lot of focus on how Jones can't keep his coaching staff together, and there are reports today the team doctor has resigned, with another individual also in doubt. This is the most unstable environment at any international side, and worse than the turnover before the last tournament.

As far as I can tell, opinions are splitting into three camps:

1. The World Cup is everything. It's too late in the day to change horses, and Jones still has an excellent record at the tournament.
2. The World Cup is everything. New blood is a long shot but a better risk than letting Jones continue on this trajectory of failure.
3. Forget the World Cup. English rugby is in a tailspin which needs urgent attention. Start the recovery now, and maybe we won't do any worse at the tournament than we seem on course to do with Jones.

Perhaps there is someone out there convinced England are unconditionally better off with Jones but I haven't seen or heard one. Haskell is usually a firm supporter, so maybe he'll play that role when his podcast comes out.

When replacing coaches the question should always be more about "who's coming in" rather than "who's going out" IMO. I said that back when Tigers got rid of Cockers. I feel that coaches and coaching staff do have a shelf life in one job, change is needed. I felt the time for that change had come with Tigers and Cockers after a period of decline. I also felt that if the wrong coach (MOC...) replaced Cockers then things could get far worse than that slight decline. So it proved. The question should be about who's coming in if changes are made.

I think it's too early in Borthwick's career. ROG and Robertson are unrealistic at such short notice I'd presume. I'd be surprised if McCall wants it at this stage but he'd be a strong option?

Assistants wise there are some interesting defence coach options. Joe Worsley is back in England consulting with Ampthill and worked with Georgia over the AIs. He has a good rep. Joe El-Abd was defence coach with Castres when they won the Top 14 in 2018 and is now top of Pro D2 with Oyonnox. I like coaches with varied experience such as those two. Paul Gustard worked extremely well with England previously to.

I believe Cockers currently does lineout and contact area, i.e. Borthwick role, with Proudfoot in the Hatley role. Given his success with the Boks Proudfoot's clearly a very good coach but something isn't clicking. I'd be tempted to hand Cockers the scrum and bring in a specialist lineout coach. Parling could make sense there.

Such a shame that Stuart's injury is sounding like a bad one. I was critical last year but over the summer he impressed and I think he's grown into international rugby. If Stuart is going to miss the Six Nations I'd be very happy to see Cole and Marler both return to the front row.

On better injury news Watson has started looking more like his old self in more recent Tigers performances. Regardless of who the coach or what the game plan is it would be a huge boost to have a fully fit and firing Watson back. He's a superb all-round winger.

Sure enough, The Good, The Bad & The Rugby podcast is backing Jones. Haskell put the Eddie Jones opposition down to the extreme negativity in English sport. He's agreed there should be change but not Jones. When asked what he means by change, he suddenly became very vague, just talking about a wake-up call for the players.

Thats not a great pod cast, its usually about an hour of Haskell and co. waffling and about 5 minutes of actual rugby.

Rugby Fan wrote:Sure enough, The Good, The Bad & The Rugby podcast is backing Jones. Haskell put the Eddie Jones opposition down to the extreme negativity in English sport. He's agreed there should be change but not Jones. When asked what he means by change, he suddenly became very vague, just talking about a wake-up call for the players.

Haskell is such a Jones fanboy too, I wouldn't take anything he says seriously on the topic.

We have to make the change with sights set firmly beyond the WC and anything happening at the WC a bonus. We getting worse each round of international games...for the sake of the fans at least, give us some hope.

Ellis Genge turned up on the same podcast, and his perspective was interesting. Genge is a straight-talker, so I don't think he'd try to toe any party line.

It was put to him that the England camp is an unhappy camp, and players are starting to open up to journalists about their grievances. Genge was genuinely taken aback by that opinion, since he believes the players have bought in to what the team is trying to achieve, and have been given a lot more freedom to come up with solutions. He doubts it is true but conceded he might just be out of touch, so promised to look into it.

The team has already had a brutal honesty session about Saturday. Genge, however believes England are not that far off. He mentioned how Argentina beat NZ, then shipped a bucketful of points in the next match. Some of the Pumas players told Genge that it only took a slight dip in performance and accuracy to bring about such a different result.

Asked how we would feel if Jones was replaced, Genge first wanted to say "heartbroken", before deciding it's too personal a word. He then said it could only happen if no-one bothered to ask the players what they thought.

Set piece especially scrum used to be England best weapon, in fact one of Jones key points when he first took over was to get England back to their key strengths of scrum, line out, maul.
Now England struggle against NZ in scrum and cannot compete with SA. Going on current form I doubt they'd match Ireland or France.

So, is it technique coached by England or are the other nations simply stronger there.

Even if Jones replaced asap would a new coaching team(as we can assume majority if not all replaced) be able to make the scrum competitive with the best or does England just not have the players now?

Who in English rugby could get into  front row positions to match likes of SA etc?

Without a competitive scrum England will not win, simple as that. So for all of us, myself included who say Earl should be in or Lawrence etc etc without sorting out fundamental element of the game England are lost.

Regarding pods, I like BBC one and Flats Shanks excellent. GBR just rubbish in main, Haskell and co wittering on and it's all about them.

mountain man wrote:Set piece especially scrum used to be England best weapon, in fact one of Jones key points when he first took over was to get England back to their key strengths of scrum, line out, maul.
Now England struggle against NZ in scrum and cannot compete with SA. Going on current form I doubt they'd match Ireland or France.

So, is it technique coached by England or are the other nations simply stronger there.

I think some players have struggled to adapt to the changes in scrummaging laws over the last few years.

From a Welsh point of view, Rob Evans used to be a very effective scrummager but with the changes he struggled with the Scarlets & lost his place with Wales- there were some injuries too but for me a lot of it was with the new laws in scrummaging. Tomos Francis is another who is struggling too.

England have for a long time had the best tight 5s in the world after the Boks.

2019 was something like Marler, Vunipola, Hartley, George, Cole, Sinckler, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes - only Mako was a potential risk at scrum time, and Kruis was one of the best setpiece locks in the world.

2022 is Genge, Vunipola, George, LCD, Sinckler, Stuart, Itoje, Hill, Ribbans, Coles. I still think Marler would be a huge boost to the setpiece over Vunipola or any of the other contenders, but beyond that the front rows are there or thereabouts. What really stands out is that we're lacking experience and capability in the locks, and in particular a recognised setpiece specialist. That tends to have a knock on impact on Itoje; he tends to lose focus and try to overcompensate when he doesn't have a rock solid partner.

From an England perspective, one of the best options would be to bring Adam Jones in until the RWC, if he'd do it. From a Quins perspective, they can get lost (unless Wales are trying to lure him - but with the rumour of Gatland returning I doubt it would happen; I think those bridges are burned).

England have for a long time had the best tight 5s in the world after the Boks.

Yeah but no longer. SA, IRE, FRA and NZ all stronger. I wonder if it's technique/coaching or do we simply not have players strong enough there. Currently I think its latter.
Unless there are front row players, especially props who aren't being picked but should be? Any names?

Another coach potentially leaving very soon after joining and the team Doctor has quit...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/6e386e84-6ffd-11ed-a188-d2cb771901d6?shareToken=c300c4edb87776d0a91f9250ec0485d5

Apparently O'Gara is close to agreeing a contract extension to 2027. So that's potentially him and Edwards out of the running. And if Wales get their act together quicker with their review and sacking we may just have whoever is left.

Alex Moon has expressed a desire to get back into the England fold, he has dropped a stone in weight, now down to a mere 19.5 stone and he says he feels a lot better for it. He was trying to be another Launchbury or Skelton, but has now decided to concentrate on being Alex Moon.

He has the necessary skills and size to be a TH side lock as well as the mobility. He usually plays 4 as Ribbans plays 5, but is happy either side.

If he can up his game over the next few months he might be what we are looking for.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Alex Moon has expressed a desire to get back into the England fold, he has dropped a stone in weight, now down to a mere 19.5 stone and he says he feels a lot better for it. He was trying to be another Launchbury or Skelton, but has now decided to concentrate on being Alex Moon.

He has the necessary skills and size to be a TH side lock as well as the mobility. He usually plays 4 as Ribbans plays 5, but is happy either side.

If he can up his game over the next few months he might be what we are looking for.

Does he do coaching on the side?

England have been after Vesty as attack coach for a long time, Matt Ferguson has improved the Saints scrummage no end this year. From always struggling for parity, especially in the front row, we are now causing other sides a lot of problems, our maul is excellent and James Craig has the lineout working well. The players haven't changed, so it must be the coaching. England could do a lot worse than have a word about a few visits to the camps.


HANDS OFF FULL TIME POACHING THOUGH

You just need to look at the turnover of coaches to see theres a huge problem...

Theres been some real quality coaches in there and all have moved on...in a short duration.

Geordie wrote:You just need to look at the turnover of coaches to see theres a huge problem...

Theres been some real quality coaches in there and all have moved on...in a short duration.

Yep something definitely amiss, another coach and team Dr gone. Turnover of coaching staff ridiculous and seems to be one common factor....

Geordie wrote:You just need to look at the turnover of coaches to see theres a huge problem...

Theres been some real quality coaches in there and all have moved on...in a short duration.

I'm not actually that bothered by the short turnover.

Eddie is very demanding of his coaches but also constantly looking for a new angle. There's no shortage of people who are willing to work for him for a short period, put up with the late nights and 5 am calls, and let him drain their best ideas in return for having his name on their CV. Plenty of the coaches who've worked for him have gone on to bigger and better things.

In rowing, there's the concept of a finishing coach, who comes in for the last couple of months before a major regatta or race to provide the last couple of % improvement, often just by focusing on different things. Eddie's strategy with coaches seems to be a bit like that. He's got plenty of form for changing up the team regularly before settling on a final setup to go through to the RWC.

I'm also very interested in what he seems to be trying to do in terms of setting up an attack that constantly shifts and keeps the defence unable to counter consistently. It's a very difficult thing to pull off, but the stats seem to suggest that England were making it work - up until the Boks game - and then messing up in the red zone. The players have been very consistent in supporting him and saying that - results aside - they've made progress on the things they're trying to do.

But against that, the pack isn't working and none of the stuff he wants to do is going to work well until it is.

I doubt the RFU will dispense with his services at this point - but who comes in to support him and what selection choices he makes for the 6N will be telling.

All the chopping and changing has really done him alot of good hasnt it - results wise....

Geordie wrote:All the chopping and changing has really done him alot of good hasnt it - results wise....

It depends on whether you count getting to the RWC Final as a result, doesn't it?

I think some of the changes are fairly understandable to be fair but clearly the movement of 1 coach to another is best being planned rather than dropped on Jones or the RFU. The first set he had, all English from memory, all moved on as their reps were very good and people came calling. Since then we've had a number of foreign coaches who were generally on shorter term contracts so again no surprise they moved on quickly. 1 thing I'd say is that since those first set we haven't had all of them with great reps but normally 1 or 2 you think hmm, are they really the best (or great). We've consistently struggled getting a great attack coach with Jones taking on the role himself several times which isn't the best...though the current one is...*banned word*.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:England have been after Vesty as attack coach for a long time, Matt Ferguson has improved the Saints scrummage no end this year. From always struggling for parity, especially in the front row, we are now causing other sides a lot of problems, our maul is excellent and James Craig has the lineout working well. The players haven't changed, so it must be the coaching. England could do a lot worse than have a word about a few visits to the camps.


HANDS OFF FULL TIME POACHING THOUGH

Matt Ferguson is very good at equipping his front row to manage an opposition. Not always legally. There's not that many good scrummaging sides left in the Prem either which is part of the problem for the national team. I can't say I rate Ferguson really, considering the options Saints have and the size of the second row/backrow behind them they should really do better than they have done.

Sam Vesty on the other handy has done and continues to do an amazing job as the attack coach. He and Boyd have really had Saints playing some wonderful stuff. Not sure what the fitness and defence coaches are doing at Saints but when they've got the ball they are a great watch. The RFU failing to recruit him is as big a failing as not securing the services of Edwards for me. Vesty with that backline would have delivered some fireworks.

Geordie wrote:All the chopping and changing has really done him alot of good hasnt it - results wise....

The big overhaul came after the world cup didn't it? Borthwick took a top job to advance his career and Wisemantel went home to Australia. Was only Mitchell who stuck around before joining Wasps in a trade to get Gleeson in.

The chopping of coaches since then has been because the RFU have preferred Eddie to sign up out of work options as opposed to spending the money and building a team of coaches like they did before.

The question - to which we don't know the answer - is whether this merry-go-round of coaches is happening because Eddie wants it that way or because he can't hang onto them.

There's probably a bit of both, but the fact that he's worked that way for so long without changing his style suggests that he is at least comfortable with the turnover. I can't see it being done without some level of planning - we don't see people leaving mid-series, so I assume it's geared around the expectation of shaking up the team at the end of each series. At the same time, we don't know how early he's approaching his preferred replacements.

The changeover from Gustard to Mitchell to Seibold is a good example of how coaching change can be positive. Under Gustard they had a very aggressive blitz which was extremely effective but can be worked out by teams over time. Under Mitchell they switched to a hybrid system where they blitzed aggressively with the forwards around the fringes but were more passive out wide tending to drift operating more of a bend don't break type system that can give up more yards over the gain line to try to prevent clean line breaks. Under Seibold, when playing well, they seem to be using the experience of both systems to alternate between the two.

The game plan changes we've seen under the recent coaches just haven't consistently worked though. Especially with the attack but also the forwards in several aspects.

I have a couple of questions to all England Fans.
If the RFU sack Eddie Jones.
(1) Who will replace him?

(2) Will this new coach make England world cup champions any more than Eddie Jones would have?

majesticimperialman wrote:I have a  couple of questions to all England Fans.
If the RFU sack Eddie Jones.
(1) Who will replace him?

(2) Will this new coach make England  world  cup champions any more than Eddie Jones would have?

1) Don't know but assume Borthwick as he seems front runner. Personally I'd try O'Gara for a more attack minded, try something different coach. I understand he about to sign ext to current contract but if England come calling who knows.

2) Hard to say but if new coach whoever he is picks right players and drops those who shouldn't be there then have more chance than presently. If Jones remains and he keeps same squad then I cannot see any hope for 6N or RWC win.

I can't see a relatively inexperienced coach like Borthwick wanting to take the job right now - I think he will happily stay at Leicester for now.  Eddie has won 6 Nations, set a world record run of wins and got to the final of a World Cup yet cops loads of stick.

Gatland is experienced and available, it is just a case of whether he would take the job (and he is probably going to get loads of stick for playing Warrenball).  He knows a lot of the players from the Lions and has a wealth of experience.  For me it is him or stick with Eddie.

I do agree though that picking the right players would help England no end.  Most of us said Mako couldn't scrummage against SA and were proved right.  Picking Coles at 6 ahead of Willis, Earl, Simmonds, etc against SA was inexplicable.  Jones could fix this himself by accepting that when you play SA you pick a pack that can scrummage, otherwise you will lose.  With such little time to the World Cup Eddie needs to be told by the RFU to stop messing about and pick the best team.

nlpnlp wrote:Picking Coles at 6 ahead of Willis, Earl, Simmonds, etc against SA was inexplicable.

He got called out by the Saints DOR on this. Coles was dropped for the NZ game because he wasn't physical enough against Japan, to be brought back for...the most physical side in the world.

It just seems that there is no one in the setup - coach or player - who can say to Eddie no that isn't a good idea. It isn't fair on the players either on the end of these selections. Ok Mako is an experienced pro who can take the criticism even though it isn't his fault he was selected, but a young player like Coles can easily get scarred by it.

nlpnlp wrote:It just seems that there is no one in the setup - coach or player - who can say to Eddie no that isn't a good idea.  It isn't fair on the players either on the end of these selections.  Ok Mako is an experienced pro who can take the criticism even though it isn't his fault he was selected, but a young player like Coles can easily get scarred by it.

The post that Woodward is asking for basically? But who would want a job where someone in that role can pull rank and choose the team?

I don't think it is necessarily a case of having someone there to pull rank and pick the team over Eddie's head.  I think it is as simple as someone being able to say to Eddie "The SA team is based around having a strong scrum and then bringing on strong replacements.  Mako is as good as any prop in the loose, but you need props who can scrummage against SA."

I think Eddie is causing himself unnecessary problems by trying to be too clever, or just not seeing the obvious.  He seems to have a dual problem - he is too loyal to some players who look virtually undroppable, and he always seems to be looking for the next bright young thing out there (and ends up damaging a lot of promising careers).

nlpnlp wrote:I don't think it is necessarily a case of having someone there to pull rank and pick the team over Eddie's head.  I think it is as simple as someone being able to say to Eddie "The SA team is based around having a strong scrum and then bringing on strong replacements.  Mako is as good as any prop in the loose, but you need props who can scrummage against SA."

You don't think he's thought about that? Honestly?

nlpnlp wrote:but a young player like Coles can easily get scarred by it

The other way to look at it is an International coach had faith in him to play so could be encouraged by it? If Coles had a mare and was made a scapegoat then maybe it could affect him but don't think that was case.
Whether it was right call to play Coles at 6 given other options is another matter but don't think decision to play him would necessarily cause him mental anguish.

Scottrf wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:I don't think it is necessarily a case of having someone there to pull rank and pick the team over Eddie's head.  I think it is as simple as someone being able to say to Eddie "The SA team is based around having a strong scrum and then bringing on strong replacements.  Mako is as good as any prop in the loose, but you need props who can scrummage against SA."

You don't think he's thought about that? Honestly?

And I'm guessing any coach will back their own judgement and ignore that voice anyway, if there's no pulling of rank.

Im glad to see Coles brought into the squad. Hes clearly a talented player whos got size aswell...hopefully he will develop into a good international.

We all have our biases towards certain players. No secret im a big fan of Ted HIll...and would prefer him into Coles, but thats splitting hairs.

The one for me is Jack Willis. Classy operator, breakdown guru, 17st plus, heavy carrier, try scorer etc. Curry not playing his best...and yet Wills gets 19 mins in the series.
These are the selections that make people wonder about Eddie.