Silly Season Transfer Rumours 22/23

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And.....off you go.

And Sarge i think we're looking very healthy squad wise for this season.

Surprised at this stage Ospreys still haven't verified the club leavers for the year.

And Im not sure they have launched their season tickets for next season either which is odd.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I for one don't really get the stick we're getting. Most leagues in the world will have sides spending different amounts and if anything, being on a smaller budget make you be more creative in other ways.

Apologies for copy and pasting in my own comments from the Wuss/LI/Wasps thread but feel it covers my thoughts on this fairly well:

A ten team league makes some sense from a scheduling perspective. Less clashes with internationals should in theory improve quality. Fewer games and higher quality is what I want in the sport. It only works if the quality goes up though. With ringfencing, no threat of relegation I just don't see how that will actually happen to a significant extent though.

Another elephant in the room with the 10 team league is Falcons spending so far below the cap. I've said repeatedly that I really respect what Semore Kurdi is doing there as well. He's decided he'd rather spend less, accept lower performance but try to consolidate a more sustainable financial model for the club. He's been pumping money in for a long time, has been very clear he can't do so forever, wants to sell but is trying to support them as best he can in the meantime. My gripe isn't with Kurdi or those decisions at all. In terms of improving quality in a 10 team, ringfenced league having one of those 10 teams adrift in terms of spending and therefore squad depth is an issue though.

Outside of JB on the Eggchasers (very good podcast but JB has drifted into full contrarian, shock jock mode these days and is frankly getting tiresome with it!) I haven't heard much criticism of Falcons to be fair.

I do think there's reasonable concern about having a team so adrift in spending in a ring fenced, 10 team league though. The only way that concept works is with increased quality as the smaller league and freedom from relegation is claimed to offer. If you have one team in such a small league is spending way below not just what Premiership teams are but also what professional teams in other leagues generally are then there is a cause for concern in whether that necessary increase in quality can come.

Were Falcons doing this in a setup with promotion-relegation then I'd say all power to them. As said I've actually respect for Kurdi cutting the cloth to fit in order to make Falcons a club he can continue to support until/if a buyer can be found. It's a far better approach from Kurdi compared to LI investing massively in players and seemingly making no changes to reduce losses only for Crossan to pull out.

Tomos Francis is joining Provence in the French second division.

Chunya Munga to Northampton. They do tend to have a lot of good locks who look maybe a shade below international level so will be interesting to see how he gets on.

Oakdene wrote:Tomos Francis is joining Provence in the French second division.

Shame he didn't end up with a D1 team but my god, what a beautiful place to live for a while.

So he was under contract and its unclear if the Ospreys will now get compensation.

Gatland on the Podcast said he asked to be released to experience the French lifestyle. The fact is has gone to Provence does raise a fairly important question.

How valuable are Welsh players and internationals. Given Hill couldn't get any offers in Europe, I suspect welsh players are not as valuable as the players would like you to believe. Clearly South Africans, New Zealanders, Irish, English & Australians all have higher demand.

Shame he's gone but I suppose it does open a lot of Budget up for the Ospreys.

Welshmushroom wrote:So he was under contract and its unclear if the Ospreys will now get compensation.

Gatland on the Podcast said he asked to be released to experience the French lifestyle.  The fact is has gone to Provence does raise a fairly important question.

How valuable are Welsh players and internationals.  Given Hill couldn't get any offers in Europe, I suspect welsh players are not as valuable as the players would like you to believe.  Clearly South Africans, New Zealanders, Irish, English & Australians all have higher demand.

Shame he's gone but I suppose it does open a lot of Budget up for the Ospreys.

With the JIFF rules tightening and France rapidly consolidating it's spot as the biggest show in town I think it's simply a case of squads filling up rather than certain nations players being more desirable. Pro D2 clubs offering bigger contracts than the regions or Premiership could swing is a sign of the times though.

There are some rumours that Gats might try to get Jake Ball into the RWC squad.

I don't like the increasing frequency I see players signing contracts on the understanding they are done internationally. It has been a big problem for the Pacific nations and it seems to be moving to be more of a rule than an exception.

As for Francis, it is a three year deal he has left for. Maybe part of the thinking is that he was going to retire from Wales after the RWC and the Welsh regions are in financial chaos so would he be able to get a healthy three year deal next year if he is injury hit.

It does feel like the dam is bursting and a major reorganisation of rugby is coming.

king_carlos wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:So he was under contract and its unclear if the Ospreys will now get compensation.

Gatland on the Podcast said he asked to be released to experience the French lifestyle.  The fact is has gone to Provence does raise a fairly important question.

How valuable are Welsh players and internationals.  Given Hill couldn't get any offers in Europe, I suspect welsh players are not as valuable as the players would like you to believe.  Clearly South Africans, New Zealanders, Irish, English & Australians all have higher demand.

Shame he's gone but I suppose it does open a lot of Budget up for the Ospreys.

With the JIFF rules tightening and France rapidly consolidating it's spot as the biggest show in town I think it's simply a case of squads filling up rather than certain nations players being more desirable. Pro D2 clubs offering bigger contracts than the regions or Premiership could swing is a sign of the times though.

There are some rumours that Gats might try to get Jake Ball into the RWC squad.

Sorry I didn't explain this properly.  The JIFF rules have a direct correlation to the amount of spots available.  But my point here is that this boils down to reputations of the abilities and performance levels even at club level from certain clubs.  A lot of Welsh players simply haven't performed that well at club level.

So for example take someone like Anscombe who was on 400K at the Ospreys.  If he then tries to go into a French market with a whole bunch of other overseas Fly Halfs for example how valuable or likely is he to get a contract.  We have already seen Racing 92 are in the market for a Fly Half but they are chasing Marcus Smith instead.  

When you look at this further you can see in the Top14 there currently only 2 players from Wales will be playing in the Top14 (Rowlands and Biggar).  If you look at the demographic of the other nations in the Top 14 they are significantly higher than this.  

Therefore I'm not surprised Welsh Players are having to take deals in Pro D2 because in reality the big French sides are targeting the best perceived players from around the world not just one country.  That means they clearly are valuing players from top tier nations higher than those from lower ones.  Which I think is fair given the fact that there are a lot of Welsh players who don't actually perform that well at club level compared to some of their counterpart countries.  For example if you were looking to recruit for success would you recruit from say Leinster or Ospreys?  Hopefully my point is clearer.   Availability does come into it I'm sure but in a lot of cases it's simply down to how good you are rated compared to other overseas players in your position.

Having watched D2 live the crowds were bigger and the rugby better than the bottom of the Premiership or the URC.
Also I believe the salaries are higher as well

geoff999rugby wrote:Having watched D2 live the crowds were bigger and the rugby better than the bottom of the Premiership or the URC.
Also I believe the salaries are higher as well

I don't believe for one second the rugby is better to be honest (at least standard wise). The bottom two clubs in the top14 are always very poor, let alone D2 clubs.

Well I can only go on the two games I saw and they were good games - both at Biarritz as an FYI.
One of the years they were promoted but came straight back down.

It seems they have a good youth system but no big bucks behind them.

Also when the Premiership had relegation some really poor outfits were relegated - most notably London Welsh.
As to the URC Biarritz were far better than Zebre or indeed Dragons although to be fair to Dragons I think they improved a fair bit this year.

geoff999rugby wrote:Having watched D2 live the crowds were bigger and the rugby better than the bottom of the Premiership or the URC.
Also I believe the salaries are higher as well

No doubting the point on attendance. But I watched a lot of Top14 last year and a lot of those games were significantly worse than both the Premiership and URC. I find it hard to believe based on that, Pro D2 is a higher standard. Perpignan beat Grenoble in the playoff to secure their spot for next years Top14 and both of those teams are dire with one of those being one of the best teams on show in the Pro D2.

Unless your only comparing this to Zebre. But even then it's a touch harsh as they actually have played some good rugby this year but I would give you that statement based on the fact they couldn't win a game. But that's about it.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Having watched D2 live the crowds were bigger and the rugby better than the bottom of the Premiership or the URC.
Also I believe the salaries are higher as well

I don't believe for one second the rugby is better to be honest (at least standard wise). The bottom two clubs in the top14 are always very poor, let alone D2 clubs.

Yet the team who won the French second division in 2021/22 finished 8th in the Top 14 this season.

Oakdene wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Having watched D2 live the crowds were bigger and the rugby better than the bottom of the Premiership or the URC.
Also I believe the salaries are higher as well

I don't believe for one second the rugby is better to be honest (at least standard wise). The bottom two clubs in the top14 are always very poor, let alone D2 clubs.

Yet the team who won the French second division in 2021/22 finished 8th in the Top 14 this season.

Not with the same squad though

Depending on whether you're just talking prettiness etc, you can just look up the head to heads in Europe and attendances. Works for the URC too.

Oakdene wrote:

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Having watched D2 live the crowds were bigger and the rugby better than the bottom of the Premiership or the URC.
Also I believe the salaries are higher as well

I don't believe for one second the rugby is better to be honest (at least standard wise). The bottom two clubs in the top14 are always very poor, let alone D2 clubs.

Yet the team who won the French second division in 2021/22 finished 8th in the Top 14 this season.

So a top14 club finished 8th?

Welshmushroom wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:So he was under contract and its unclear if the Ospreys will now get compensation.

Gatland on the Podcast said he asked to be released to experience the French lifestyle.  The fact is has gone to Provence does raise a fairly important question.

How valuable are Welsh players and internationals.  Given Hill couldn't get any offers in Europe, I suspect welsh players are not as valuable as the players would like you to believe.  Clearly South Africans, New Zealanders, Irish, English & Australians all have higher demand.

Shame he's gone but I suppose it does open a lot of Budget up for the Ospreys.

With the JIFF rules tightening and France rapidly consolidating it's spot as the biggest show in town I think it's simply a case of squads filling up rather than certain nations players being more desirable. Pro D2 clubs offering bigger contracts than the regions or Premiership could swing is a sign of the times though.

There are some rumours that Gats might try to get Jake Ball into the RWC squad.

Sorry I didn't explain this properly.  The JIFF rules have a direct correlation to the amount of spots available.  But my point here is that this boils down to reputations of the abilities and performance levels even at club level from certain clubs.  A lot of Welsh players simply haven't performed that well at club level.

So for example take someone like Anscombe who was on 400K at the Ospreys.  If he then tries to go into a French market with a whole bunch of other overseas Fly Halfs for example how valuable or likely is he to get a contract.  We have already seen Racing 92 are in the market for a Fly Half but they are chasing Marcus Smith instead.  

When you look at this further you can see in the Top14 there currently only 2 players from Wales will be playing in the Top14 (Rowlands and Biggar).  If you look at the demographic of the other nations in the Top 14 they are significantly higher than this.  

Therefore I'm not surprised Welsh Players are having to take deals in Pro D2 because in reality the big French sides are targeting the best perceived players from around the world not just one country.  That means they clearly are valuing players from top tier nations higher than those from lower ones.  Which I think is fair given the fact that there are a lot of Welsh players who don't actually perform that well at club level compared to some of their counterpart countries.  For example if you were looking to recruit for success would you recruit from say Leinster or Ospreys?  Hopefully my point is clearer.   Availability does come into it I'm sure but in a lot of cases it's simply down to how good you are rated compared to other overseas players in your position.

100%. Sam Johnson (who many people would still put in the Scotland RWC squad) just signed for Brive, who will be D2 this coming season. Must be so much money in French rugby.

Liam Williams is set to leave Cardiff for Japan after the World Cup, subject to passing a very stringent medical.

Saints are first out of the blocks on the LI players, signing Munga, Haffar and Pearson. The latter will understandably get the headlines, but Haffar is one I'd watch out for. Only 21, but was keeping guys like Goodrick-Clark and Gigena out of the match day 23 in the second half of the season. Freakishly athletic for a prop and hasn't been embarrassed at set piece so far.

A really good set of signings though.

Clutching at straw and it will be painful getting there as players are going to drop out of the game, but one by product of this mess is that the quality of the squads should rise with 13 going into 10.

Oakdene wrote:Liam Williams is set to leave Cardiff for Japan after the World Cup, subject to passing a very stringent medical.

I think they're keen to get him off the wage books, but also goes to show how desperately they need someone like Rhys Patchell.

Francis confirmed as leaving and Luke Morgan re-signs with Ospreys, some epic recruitment for next season on their part. I expect one of these teams will sign Henry Thomas.

Margin_Walker wrote:Saints are first out of the blocks on the LI players, signing Munga, Haffar and Pearson. The latter will understandably get the headlines, but Haffar is one I'd watch out for. Only 21, but was keeping guys like Goodrick-Clark and Gigena out of the match day 23 in the second half of the season. Freakishly athletic for a prop and hasn't been embarrassed at set piece so far.

A really good set of signings though.

Clutching at straw and it will be painful getting there as players are going to drop out of the game, but one by product of this mess is that the quality of the squads should rise with 13 going into 10.

Three very good signings for Saints. Pearson is already a gun at club level and might go onto be more. Munga is a really solid lock already. Whilst Haffar has bags of potential as you say, Margin.

Munya might get the least discussion there but I rate him and think he fits the Saints squad very well. When LI folded and there were inevitably talk of how their players might fit in other squads an quick thought as a Tigers fan was that whilst I think Sam Carter is a good player I would've preferred Api or Munya.

Tigers need depth at LH ideally so I really hope we are targeting Fischetti (who's quietly become a really good international) or WGC.

Dunno KC I'd have preferred to pick up Haffar. Short term maybe not as good but long term he could be another Genge style carrying prop. Unfortunately for him the forwards and particularly scrum coaching is particularly dire at Saints. Not the ideal place for him to kick on for England unless there's some change going on there.

Pearson could be key for Saints. They desperately need someone to get results at the breakdown without giving away penalties. In attack he'll fit in with Vesty's exceptional attack perfectly.

Scarlets supposedly front-runners to sign WQ Taine Plumtree. I think his dad did a bit of this and that, you should recognise the name. Letting Shingler go makes sense now.

Tian Schoeman release by mutual consent from Falcons.

Waste of money.

Mentioned on your forum already, but Rory Jennings would be a really good fit as a replacement.

Well we are very light now...Brett Connon starter, then a young Welsh lad and Louie Johnson the U20 fly half.

So we MUST be about to announce someone. Connon has his moments and actually was really solid last season. But i just think we need a bit more.

Paddy Jackson incoming?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Paddy Jackson incoming?

Going to Cardiff ain't he...

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dunno KC I'd have preferred to pick up Haffar. Short term maybe not as good but long term he could be another Genge style carrying prop. Unfortunately for him the forwards and particularly scrum coaching is particularly dire at Saints. Not the ideal place for him to kick on for England unless there's some change going on there.

Pearson could be key for Saints. They desperately need someone to get results at the breakdown without giving away penalties. In attack he'll fit in with Vesty's exceptional attack perfectly.

I think their front row recruitment is good. Langdon and Davison are clear upgrades whilst they've retained Matavesi and Hill to now be second choices. Iyogun I think is a cracking talent whilst Haffar is a freakish athlete.

I see parallels to Gloucester getting Elrington, Socino and Morozov in. None were heralded but it allowed them to actually rotate the good first choice front row of VRR, Singleton and Balmain. Jamal Ford Robinson has subsequently been able to flourish in that impact sub role rather than being a struggling occasional starter. That's really good but under the radar recruitment.

I see similar with Saints improvements in the front row. Langdon is IMO a potential England player. Matavesi is then a strong second choice or really good bench option. Davison is a rock as a starter. Hill is then a very good second choice rather than middling starter.

As discussed before it's often hard to tell what's poor coaching or just poor depth at club level.

Daf Hughes and Joe Peard going to Jersey Reds. I hoped a Welsh team would pick both up, glad they'll be getting game time. Hopefully both can progress upwards from here.

king_carlos wrote:

As discussed before it's often hard to tell what's poor coaching or just poor depth at club level.

This can often be a really important point. I remember some of our poorest performing teams over the last decade or so and the desperate calls for a new attack, defence, scrum coach or whatever. When looking at it objectively, it was an uphill battle with the players we had.

There is absolutely huge value in having a well coached, well drilled side. But sometimes you have to look at the cattle. Fans are prone to overestimate where their players stack up against the rest of the league as they know a lot about their players and are not as familiar about players at club x or y. Sometimes the balance tips more in that direction. Looking from the outside, Saints just haven't had particularly strong front row players in recent seasons for me. It's not hugely surprising that they've not had a dominant scrum and I'm not sure many scrum coaches could have made a dent in that.

The FIR have decided to not renew Kieran Crowleys contract... Just what in the world is this new FIR president at??? First he undoes all the fantastic work at underage level that Stephen Aboud implemented, which has lead to unprecedented success underage and now this.

Italy are doomed to being tier 2 status in all but name for the foreseeable with this 1diot as president. There's a fantastic coach now available after the world Cup.

king_carlos wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Dunno KC I'd have preferred to pick up Haffar. Short term maybe not as good but long term he could be another Genge style carrying prop. Unfortunately for him the forwards and particularly scrum coaching is particularly dire at Saints. Not the ideal place for him to kick on for England unless there's some change going on there.

Pearson could be key for Saints. They desperately need someone to get results at the breakdown without giving away penalties. In attack he'll fit in with Vesty's exceptional attack perfectly.

I think their front row recruitment is good. Langdon and Davison are clear upgrades whilst they've retained Matavesi and Hill to now be second choices. Iyogun I think is a cracking talent whilst Haffar is a freakish athlete.

I see parallels to Gloucester getting Elrington, Socino and Morozov in. None were heralded but it allowed them to actually rotate the good first choice front row of VRR, Singleton and Balmain. Jamal Ford Robinson has subsequently been able to flourish in that impact sub role rather than being a struggling occasional starter. That's really good but under the radar recruitment.

I see similar with Saints improvements in the front row. Langdon is IMO a potential England player. Matavesi is then a strong second choice or really good bench option. Davison is a rock as a starter. Hill is then a very good second choice rather than middling starter.

As discussed before it's often hard to tell what's poor coaching or just poor depth at club level.

Hill and Painter were both highly rated props coming through. Neither has become more than a mediocre scrummager. Ioygen is strong and dynamic but gets folded up by any technical tighthead. You can't call the Saints pack small by any stretch, last season they had three locks and Augustus at 8 for pushing. The two Waller brothers though thoroughly average should be reliable at the set piece.

Langdon and Davison are both good acquisitions. Haffar is a very canny signing as well. If we see more stagnation and inability to stay up and stay straight next season then there can be no excuses when fingers are pointed at the coach.

There aren't many LHs Iyogun's age that don't get folded up by a technical TH. I've seen more than enough from his early appearances that I think he's going to a very good LH. Just my opinion of course.

For most of 2022/23:

1.A Waller 2.Matavesi 3.Hill
1.E Waller 2.Fish 3.Painter
1.Iyogun 2.Haywood 3.Petch

Potential start of 2023/24:

1.Iyogun 2.Langdon 3.Davison
1.E Waller 2.Matavesi 3.Hill
1.Haffar 2.Cruse 3.Millar-Mills

Plus Beltus Nonleh at TH who is supposed to be talented and has a wonderful name.

I think that's really good recruitment considering the cap restraints. Clear improved starters at hooker and TH. Improved depth with Matavesi and Hill dropping down, Cruse staying. Millar-Mills is probably a slight improvement on Petch. Then two very talented LHs.

Ribbans is a blow of course but again considering budgets I think Munya and Mayanavanua are astute signings. Alongside Moon and Coles that's decent second row depth. Then the back row is clearly improved with Pearson's arrival.

I know I'm biased but Trev Davison is a cracking premiership prop. His work rate aswell is outstanding. But one of the key things is that he just doesn't get injured or miss games. He's just Mr reliable. Saints acquired a good one there.

king_carlos wrote:There aren't many LHs Iyogun's age that don't get folded up by a technical TH. I've seen more than enough from his early appearances that I think he's going to a very good LH. Just my opinion of course.

My opinion is that Ioygen has the potential to be an international level LH. His game outside of the scrum is coming on very nicely. At the scrum he's a bit of a liability. Reminds me a bit of Hill on t'other side at a similar age, bags of potential and mobile for a prop but a lack of technical development has meant his England opportunities have dried up and he's not in the conversation.

Right now if you were to compare Ioygen and Whitcombe, similar ages but Ioygen has more Prem appearances. One can do a solid job at the set piece and is ok around the field. The other is good round the field but goes back at a rate of knots.

I'm surprised Saints haven't looked at a new defence and scrum coach to be honest. Discipline was a key factor in their inability to take the best attack in the country to any silverware.

mikey_dragon wrote:Daf Hughes and Joe Peard going to Jersey Reds. I hoped a Welsh team would pick both up, glad they'll be getting game time. Hopefully both can progress upwards from here.

Hoping he will come back in a couple of years like a few others have.

Arundell to Racing 92 confirmed.

mikey_dragon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Paddy Jackson incoming?

Going to Cardiff ain't he...

Nope by all accounts Jackson has now signed for Lyon.

Welshmushroom wrote:Arundell to Racing 92 confirmed.  

Makes lots of sense for him. There's an amnesty on international selection for the season for LI players so he should be able to play for England and get a nice one year pay day in Paris before coming back to the Prem for next season when he has better chance to arrange a good contract.

Welshmushroom wrote:Arundell to Racing 92 confirmed.  

Not yet it's not, unless I'm missing something.

Looking likely though

Arundell not quite confirmed by player or club yet. Looks certain though. The RFU will have to keep the same rules in place as with Wasps and Wuss surely.

There's been mixed reports on whether Willis will be available after the RWC. Some reporting he'll still be available and some saying it's only for the season just gone where Wasps folded.

I thought that Willis signed a contract extension with Toulouse - so rules him out post WC.

propdavid_london wrote:I thought that Willis signed a contract extension with Toulouse - so rules him out post WC.

I've seen it reported that he won't be available post RWC and that he will be. I get the feeling no one's sure yet which would make sense with this being the RFU and PRL managing proceedings!

Paddy Jackson to Lyon

Jack Goodhue to Castres

Tom Pearson to Northampton

Liam Williams has left Cardiff. Most likely to sign for a Japanese team

king_carlos wrote:There's been mixed reports on whether Willis will be available after the RWC. Some reporting he'll still be available and some saying it's only for the season just gone where Wasps folded.

Surely its only for the season...he knew the crack when he signed the extension