[solved]England Pre 2023 6Ns and Beyond.

First topic message reminder :

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/06/eddie-jones-mistakes-with-england-why-i-got-the-sack-rugby-union

Interview with Jones about being sacked there. Some interesting stuff in amongst it.

And touch wood his lineouts have been excellent with England. Another player like Lawrence who seemingly didn't do anything wrong on the pitch for England but was then pushed aside for reasons unknown. That stat I posted above is pretty reflective on how set in stone certain positions were under Jones.

Lawrence didn't do anything wrong because he didn't do anything.

He gets a pass because that wasn't entirely his fault, nobody ever gave him the ball. He's older and hopefully wiser now though.

Ok lets have a go...

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Isiekwe
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward

Geordie wrote:Ok lets have a go...

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Isiekwe
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward

No Schickerling? Hmm, wonder if 7.5 knows about that...

Geordie wrote:Ok lets have a go...

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Isiekwe
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward

That would make a lot of sense. Could he surprise us with something a bit more adventurous though?

Genge, Blamire, Sinckler
Hill, Itoje
Chessum, Ludlam, Earl
JVP, Farrell
Kelly, Marchant
OHC, Steward, Freeman

Walker, Vunipola, Cole, Ribbans, Dombrandt, Youngs, Smith, Manu/Lawrence

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ok lets have a go...

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Isiekwe
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward

No Schickerling? Hmm, wonder if 7.5 knows about that...

Don't know what you're on about? The fact we nearly cheated like Wales?

Any one know how bad an injurie too Dailey and George are? Will they miss just the first game of the 6nations or more?

majesticimperialman wrote:Any one  know how  bad an injurie too Dailey and George are? Will they miss just the first game of the 6nations or more?

Sounds like Daly is out but Jamie George is going through the HIA protocols so could be back sooner rather than later.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ok lets have a go...

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Isiekwe
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward

No Schickerling? Hmm, wonder if 7.5 knows about that...

Don't know what you're on about? The fact we nearly cheated like Wales?

Ha, nearly. You gotta let some things go man, the Shane Howarth days are long gone. One would think you'd learn some grace after we gave you players like Lewsey, Haskell and Heyes...

mikey_dragon wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Geordie wrote:Ok lets have a go...

1 Genge
2 Dunn
3 Cole
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Isiekwe
7 Willis
8 Dombrandt

9 JVP
10 Farrell
11 Murley
12 Kelly
13 Slade
14 Marchant
15 Steward

No Schickerling? Hmm, wonder if 7.5 knows about that...

Don't know what you're on about? The fact we nearly cheated like Wales?

Ha, nearly. You gotta let some things go man, the Shane Howarth days are long gone. One would think you'd learn some grace after we gave you players like Lewsey, Haskell and Heyes...

"gave". The lads in question being born in London, Windsor and Nottingham.

That told him

Back to “scouting” granny Facebook pictures for old Mickey

Expected it from WhamBam, but not you Sam. It was a little too easy. On a serious note let’s all hope that England don’t pick illegal players again.

Back you up Sam with a few tweeks

1. Genge, Blamire (looks like an orc and could develop nicely), Sinckler
Ribbans Itoje
Willis, dombrant, Earl
JVP, Farrell
Kelly, Marchant
OHC, Steward, Murley ( got to have have dangerous fast wingers on both wings personally)

Dunn (not sure on walker), big Val (I know he's not there but hope he gets a chance), Cole, chessum (think he will be a quality player), curry (keep the pressure on the breakdown), Mitchell, Smith, Lawrence ( no point having Manu on the bench might as well develop Lawrence who looks far more dynamic at the moment)

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:My perception is that Blamire is very good in the scum, don't remember him in a struggling one anyway?

He's a big strong boy for sure. Nearest hooker I like comparing him to Marx...maybe not quite as good. He has bags of potential when/if his arrows straighten.

Some heavy lifting for that add on there! Marx is one of the best two hookers in rugby alongside Montoya for me.

Blamire would have been my third choice after George and LCD though so I'm happy he's been picked. He has bags of potential.

Losing George and LCD simultaneously would be brutal though. They are head and shoulders above the challengers at present.

Alfie Barbeary ditched the hooker role just over a year ago. If we really had a crisis there, I wonder whether he'd be able to switch back at a pinch. It's all moot until he gets fit again.

Rugby Fan wrote:Alfie Barbeary ditched the hooker role just over a year ago. If we really had a crisis there, I wonder whether he'd be able to switch back at a pinch. It's all moot until he gets fit again.

He announced the permanent move then but I thought his last app at hooker was in 2019/20? Though he trained there after that.

I hoped Barbeary would stay at hooker simply as we have more back rows coming through. He could be an incredible 8. Few have the ability to make yards against set defences and he does.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:My perception is that Blamire is very good in the scum, don't remember him in a struggling one anyway?

He's a big strong boy for sure. Nearest hooker I like comparing him to Marx...maybe not quite as good. He has bags of potential when/if his arrows straighten.

Some heavy lifting for that add on there! Marx is one of the best two hookers in rugby alongside Montoya for me.

It was very much tongue in cheek....obviously my tone didn't come across. Physically he's quite similar to Marx and I do see some aspects in his game that tie in.....I'd like him to become a bit more nasty and dominate the gain line a bit more. I'd love us to have a nasty front row that smashes scrums and gets in the faces of the opp.

Sgt he needs to put on a stone +. I know i keep saying it...but he came back from the summer considerably lighter - certainly visibly.

Now if hes shed a load of fat...then thats great, but i hope they now have him on a lean muscle building programme. Hes player who knows how to use his body...so an extra stone on him would make a massive difference to his game at the top end.

Some possibility that George could be back in the squad at the end of the week. Blamire better hope he's impressive in training.

Whats the point in rushing George back!!!!???

Blamire is playing very well...his lineout stats are strong...De Chaves is the best lneout taker in the league and that has altered one bit with Blamire taking over starting hooker.

Play him and Dunn...let Jamie George recover properly...no issues. Plus Blamire gets another great bit of experience against a rampaging scots..

George is our best hooker, and there's a dearth of experience outside of him and LCD. Could well be Walker down to start, who knows.

Currently looking at the training pics second guessing if the bib colours signal a potential first and second team.

Can someone please take Dunn for a proper haircut?

doctor_grey wrote:Can someone please take Dunn for a proper haircut?

Speaking as someone who is rapidly balding and is a grade above his current shaven style, how dare you. Don't have the beard though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:George is our best hooker, and there's a dearth of experience outside of him and LCD. Could well be Walker down to start, who knows.

For me he is truly world class. But still...why rush him back. We need to see what the others can do...Walker, Blamire etc. Scots at home is a great test to check them...and im very confident they wont buckle.

Blamire has already faced all the major teams...and scored 6 in a row!

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:George is our best hooker, and there's a dearth of experience outside of him and LCD. Could well be Walker down to start, who knows.

For me he is truly world class. But still...why rush him back. We need to see what the others can do...Walker, Blamire etc. Scots at home is a great test to check them...and im very confident they wont buckle.

Blamire has already faced all the major teams...and scored 6 in a row!

Well I suspect that one of Borthwick's main priorities is building experience in key positions where it's lacking. There have been very few opportunities given for SH, hooker, full back and props to a great or lesser extent. Those given experience have often been fleeting and on to the next guy too so there is a lot to be said on it. And yes people's injuries and particularly concussion cannot be or should not be rushed. The flip side is though that Borthwick needs an early performance and statement. If George is fit he has to start for me.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:George is our best hooker, and there's a dearth of experience outside of him and LCD. Could well be Walker down to start, who knows.

For me he is truly world class. But still...why rush him back. We need to see what the others can do...Walker, Blamire etc. Scots at home is a great test to check them...and im very confident they wont buckle.

Blamire has already faced all the major teams...and scored 6 in a row!

Well I suspect that one of Borthwick's main priorities is building experience in key positions where it's lacking. There have been very few opportunities given for SH, hooker, full back and props to a great or lesser extent. Those given experience have often been fleeting and on to the next guy too so there is a lot to be said on it. And yes people's injuries and particularly concussion cannot be or should not be rushed. The flip side is though that Borthwick needs an early performance and statement. If George is fit he has to start for me.

I think you just summed up Borthwick's poisoned chalice:  
Build depth and give some young'uns game time to see if they have the onions for international levels, as some (many?) will unquestionably be called on at the RWC.  
At the same time, he wants (has?) to win.  Win today, then go try and win tomorrow.  

Ain't easy.

Well full back has been sealed up by Steward and rightly so. Injury replacement would be Arundel when fit and Malins I would think.
Lack of opportunities has been in centres and wings as Jones only picked his favourites it seemed. Issue with hooker and props now come about as best players picks are injured. A lot of "blame" can be levelled at Jones as he just wouldn't select back up players who clearly deserved to be in squad. Plus his determination to have Youngs and Manu in whenever possible.
Likes of McGuigan, Mitchell, Lawrence, Kelly etc who now are getting nod from Borthwick.

But yes, it's the difficult balanced act a coach must do. Win but also blood players for future/injury replacement.

mountain man wrote:Well full back has been sealed up by Steward and rightly so. Injury replacement would be Arundel when fit and Malins I would think.
Lack of opportunities has been in centres and wings as Jones only picked his favourites it seemed. Issue with hooker and props now come about as best players picks  are injured. A lot of "blame" can be levelled at Jones as he just wouldn't select back up players who clearly deserved to be in squad. Plus his determination to have Youngs and Manu in whenever possible.
Likes of McGuigan, Mitchell, Lawrence, Kelly etc who now are getting nod from Borthwick.

But yes, it's the difficult balanced act a coach must do. Win but also blood players for future/injury replacement.

It's too easy to call out EJ on this when in reality it's not that simple.

McGuigan - looked at and discarded. Personally don't think he's good enough and we've had better options. Jones seemed to like Blamire and Dolly above?
Mitchell - Again involved and deemed not fit enough, was in and around the squads....seemingly lost out to others like Randell and JVP.
Lawrence - Again, had chances and failed to deliver. Wasn't playing well at Worcester and is now one of the apparent shining lights after a move to Bath.
Kelly - Again, involved and then injured pretty much, Not sure how much he was actually available to play for Jones tbh.

You can't involve everyone in a match day 23......

No you can't pick everyone but Jones was stubborn to point of bloody minded. Centre been issue for literally years and Lawrence was hardly given a chance, think last time he played for Eng he recieved about two passes! I'm not only one who questioned why he wasn't given a look in autumn games after his storming run of games for Bath.
The fixation of MUST having Manu in has been detrimental to England for last couple years. He's a great player, or was but time and injury taken it's toll.

Anyway, Jones gone so we move on and see what Borthwick does in 6N.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:Well full back has been sealed up by Steward and rightly so. Injury replacement would be Arundel when fit and Malins I would think.
Lack of opportunities has been in centres and wings as Jones only picked his favourites it seemed. Issue with hooker and props now come about as best players picks  are injured. A lot of "blame" can be levelled at Jones as he just wouldn't select back up players who clearly deserved to be in squad. Plus his determination to have Youngs and Manu in whenever possible.
Likes of McGuigan, Mitchell, Lawrence, Kelly etc who now are getting nod from Borthwick.

But yes, it's the difficult balanced act a coach must do. Win but also blood players for future/injury replacement.

It's too easy to call out EJ on this when in reality it's not that simple.

McGuigan - looked at and discarded. Personally don't think he's good enough and we've had better options. Jones seemed to like Blamire and Dolly above?
Mitchell - Again involved and deemed not fit enough, was in and around the squads....seemingly lost out to others like Randell and JVP.
Lawrence - Again, had chances and failed to deliver. Wasn't playing well at Worcester and is now one of the apparent shining lights after a move to Bath.
Kelly - Again, involved and then injured pretty much, Not sure how much he was actually available to play for Jones tbh.

You can't involve everyone in a match day 23......

Agreed, Kelly is a prime example of someone Eddie wanted to develop. Called up after a season at Tigers where he just broke into the first team regularly. Capped Vs Canada. Wasn't called up for the AIs but early season form was good and he fantastic in the build up to the 6N but then did the hamstring injury that effectively kept him out for 6 months. By which time Eddie was sacked and Borthwick is now selecting him again now he's fit and firing.

mountain man wrote: Lawrence was hardly given a chance, think last time he played for Eng he recieved about two passes! I'm not only one who questioned why he wasn't given a look in autumn games after his storming run of games for Bath

It was the way of the England outside centre under Eddie Jones. I don't think Porter got five touches in two tests in the summer. For whatever reason the attacking patterns seemed to make the 13 a crash ball option once or twice a game.

Doesn't really matter whether it was Lawrence, Porter, Marchant or Manu there was a general confusion around the midfield which wouldn't go away.

Re: fullback, I think it would be good to see some competition for Steward and it’s a shame that Arundell is injured in that context. While Steward is very good for his level of experience, there are areas he can improve in. I think he could still work on his stride pattern to improve his acceleration, and his defensive positioning has occasional lapses. If rumours that Mike Brown is joining Tigers are true, it could be a superb signing for Steward’s development - Brown had to work on his acceleration early in his career, and is one of the best positional fullbacks England have had. If he can coach those into Steward, he could be the complete package before too long.

Poorfour wrote:Re: fullback, I think it would be good to see some competition for Steward and it’s a shame that Arundell is injured in that context. While Steward is very good for his level of experience, there are areas he can improve in. I think he could still work on his stride pattern to improve his acceleration, and his defensive positioning has occasional lapses. If rumours that Mike Brown is joining Tigers are true, it could be a superb signing for Steward’s development - Brown had to work on his acceleration early in his career, and is one of the best positional fullbacks England have had. If he can coach those into Steward, he could be the complete package before too long.

Dangerous game suggesting Steward has faults PoorFour.....very dangerous indeed.

It's too easy to call out EJ on this when in reality it's not that simple

Also let's not forget Jones kept picking Ewels until injury intervened.
Look, I was a fan of Jones for a long time and supported him through a lot of iffy games but he definitely was culpable of blind loyalty/favouritism to detriment of England.

mountain man wrote:

It's too easy to call out EJ on this when in reality it's not that simple

Also let's not forget Jones kept picking Ewels until injury intervened.
Look, I was a fan of Jones for a long time and supported him through a lot of iffy games but he definitely was culpable of blind loyalty/favouritism to detriment of England.

I'm far away from defending the guy but he realistically dealt the hand he was given in a lot of instances.

I don't particularly rate Ewels.....but in all honesty, has anybody came in since and been drastically better?

Ha! No. We've had Hill who has been as bad in one way or another.
But my point is we never got to see if anyone could be better as Jones kept picking same players repeatedly even if they were obviously not playing well.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I can sit here and say shouldn't have picked him and should have picked this guy but no-one knows if be any better or worse.
I just think Jones got himself in a corner at times with selection and would see pundits/ex players etc calling for certain players to be in and would refuse through sheer bloody mindedness.
Do I know this for a fact, no. However, hard to fathom why he picked some and didn't pick others.

Launchbury has confirmed SB has been in touch about his availability going forward etc.

mountain man wrote:Ha! No. We've had Hill who has been as bad in one way or another.
But my point is we never got to see if anyone could be better as Jones kept picking same players repeatedly even if they were obviously not playing well.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, I can sit here and say shouldn't have picked him and should have picked this guy but no-one knows if be any better or worse.
I just think Jones got himself in a corner at times with selection and would see pundits/ex players etc calling for certain players to be in and would refuse through sheer bloody mindedness.
Do I know this for a fact, no. However, hard to fathom why he picked some and didn't pick others.

But he was stand out lock in the prem and Europe for Exeter....so hes been trialled and given time. Kruis is a hard act to follow.

Indeed but he has never shown club form with England. I'd say he's been average at best for England, I think I can recall one game where in fairness he was very good but otherwise no. Plus prone to utterly stupid acts of indiscipline.
Borthwick has him in squad so obviously rates him but I am not convinced at all.

No he hasnt shown that form...but Eddie has given him a chance to bring that form..

I think thats the thing that puzzles people about Eddie...

In some positions players are given a huge number of games to make it...where as other positions players are given barely any gametime. He clearly had his reasons and views on players ability to make it.

Im still wondering where Kruis's replacement is coming from.

Poorfour wrote:Re: fullback, I think it would be good to see some competition for Steward and it’s a shame that Arundell is injured in that context. While Steward is very good for his level of experience, there are areas he can improve in. I think he could still work on his stride pattern to improve his acceleration, and his defensive positioning has occasional lapses. If rumours that Mike Brown is joining Tigers are true, it could be a superb signing for Steward’s development - Brown had to work on his acceleration early in his career, and is one of the best positional fullbacks England have had. If he can coach those into Steward, he could be the complete package before too long.

Now back in full training by all accounts. Wouldn't surprise me to see him in the 23 for Quins at the weekend.

I never saw Hill as a standout. He's big but for me there were and are plenty better than him.

Hill and Ewels, I suspect, are the type of players who suit a pretty straightforward gameplan and might have been a bit lost in the complexity of some of Eddie's strategies. Borthwick might be able to get them focused on doing what they do well.

Poorfour wrote:Re: fullback, I think it would be good to see some competition for Steward and it’s a shame that Arundell is injured in that context. While Steward is very good for his level of experience, there are areas he can improve in. I think he could still work on his stride pattern to improve his acceleration, and his defensive positioning has occasional lapses. If rumours that Mike Brown is joining Tigers are true, it could be a superb signing for Steward’s development - Brown had to work on his acceleration early in his career, and is one of the best positional fullbacks England have had. If he can coach those into Steward, he could be the complete package before too long.

Steward has been working with the sprint coaches up at Loughborough University, I doubt there's much they don't know about speed. If it's SprintWorks he's been working with then they've got a strong Rugby link as well.

If Brown signs he likely to be gone by the time Steward returns as it'll be short term deal to cover international call ups whilst we have an injury crisis in the back three.

While we criticise Jones' picks, i'd like to also add the following - rushing back Billy V when he was in dire form, helping us do terribly in a 6N's. Repeatedly playing Mako when he was crap at scrummaging, playing Youngs when he was in terrible form. Dropping Marchant when he was one of the few promising backs. Binning Care for questioning him, sticking with Daly out of form, playing Malins.

They're just a few of the pretty questionable decisions he made. I don't think any of those selection decisions happened once either, all were repeated over the course of tournaments or even seasons in some cases.

Positive vibes coming out...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/26/steve-borthwick-bringing-real-clarity-to-englands-style-reveals-lewis-ludlam

At least/last there's a focus on the lineout and the driving maul. For all the time we were using 2 locks and a lock hybrid that area of our game has been absolutely rubbish, where obviously it should be an area of strength. It'll be a testing time for those new hookers.

Geordie wrote:Positive vibes coming out...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2023/jan/26/steve-borthwick-bringing-real-clarity-to-englands-style-reveals-lewis-ludlam

Well every player under every coach always praises their methods etc. Par for course. Don't think there's ever been a player who has criticised a Int coach methods whilst playing for him.

I do think though it's good the paddleboarding etc has been canned. Concentrate on rugby, that's it. Borthwick got very limited time so he has to although I suspect that will be his MO anyway.
No frills training and tactics. Driving maul. Hmmm, exciting.

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Steward has been working with the sprint coaches up at Loughborough University, I doubt there's much they don't know about speed. If it's SprintWorks he's been working with then they've got a strong Rugby link as well.

If Brown signs he likely to be gone by the time Steward returns as it'll be short term deal to cover international call ups whilst we have an injury crisis in the back three.

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Brown knows his playing days are coming to the end and wants to get into coaching. Leicester have effectively lost a defence coach in Sinfield and a backs coach with Wigglesworth stepping up to DoR. Brown could contribute to either or both of those roles.

The parallel I'd draw is with Quins recruiting Adam Jones, who was brought in as a player but with a specific remit of developing the likes of Sinckler, Collier, Kerrod and Baxter. I'm not saying that will happen, but it's a plausible scenario and I think it would be good for both Tigers and England.

I'll grant you that Steward's acceleration does seem to have improved - I wasn't aware that he was working with Loughborough. Even so, there's still a lot to gain from working with someone who's been through the same challenge in the same position.