England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

Telegraph report of the RFU Six Nations review. Doesn't indicate whether the RFU has made these findings public, or if someone has leaked them.

A damning Rugby Football Union review has concluded that England’s squad lacked the requisite fitness levels to compete in the Six Nations Championship, Telegraph Sport has learnt.

Steve Borthwick’s first campaign as head coach ended in disappointment with England finishing with two wins for a third successive Championship. Of particular concern to Borthwick was the conditioning levels of his squad when they arrived into camp, which was borne out by England’s second-half collapse against Scotland in the opening match as they let a 20-12 lead slip at Twickenham.

While the report concludes that fitness levels improved over the course of the Championship, England still fell away in the final quarters of their defeats to France and Ireland. The appointment of Aled Walters, who will take over as head of strength and conditioning this summer, is seen as critical to getting England into shape for the World Cup and playing the style of rugby that Borthwick demands.

Yet immediately after the 29-16 defeat to Ireland in Dublin, Borthwick insinuated that it is incumbent upon the Premiership clubs to get the players up to speed before the first players come into England’s training camp on June 11. “We don’t want to spend the World Cup camp trying to get fit,” Borthwick said. “We want to use the World Cup camp to get better. Once the players leave on Sunday and return to their clubs, we have no control over them.”

Premiership Rugby insiders have pushed back against the notion that England have no input into individual player management plans and are keen to build a better relationship with the head coach, which was severely strained under Borthwick’s predecessor, Eddie Jones.

Another frustration highlighted by the review, which is an annual process conducted by anonymous insiders, was the restricted squad size available to England’s coaches. During the fallow week after the 20-10 victory against Wales, England had to use a number of Under-20 players to make up numbers in training sessions.

Borthwick announced a 36-man squad for the start of the Championship but had to reduce it to 29 players for the start of each training week. France head coach Fabien Galthie, by contrast, could name a 42-player squad and retain more senior players in training weeks.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/04/20/england-not-fit-enough-six-nations-rfu-review/

S&C is an issue i think.

Even at the Falcons...theres alot of us who believe we are well below where we should be fitness and conditioning wise. We look to be carrying too much weight (fat) and dont have the strength endurance to last a full 80 Plus mins. We noticeably drop off from 60 mins...

Also our ability to win collisions (speed / power/ dynamism) has been raised over and over again.

Clubs can have different spending abilities...but i dont think there can be any excuses about fitness levels.

It's an interesting view point. We saw Willis being subbed at 50 minutes, but then stay on throughout the Ireland game and be excellent (bar the yellow card on both counts!). We saw George stay on for far longer than seemed necessary or smart. vP seemed to stay on the pitch for too long, but then the fresh legs (and massive experience) of Youngs was the one with the brain fart vs Scotland.

So just the guys like Willis, whose conditioning is led by a French club may be the obvious one who was doubted, but then was fine. While the French team seem pretty well set?

If fitness was a real issue then the subs seem even more stupid now.

Another hint that the agreements between RFU and PRL is open for negotiation though.

Fitness (or confidence in his back-up) was a real issue with George who was kept on during the Six Nations when he was clearly running on fumes. Willis was fine.

Not sure what you guys think, but to me, the overall team speed - maybe this is reaction time - seems slower than in the past. I am thinking time to get support to the breakdowns on both sides of the ball and then just making the basic plays to gain, retain, turnover, slow the ball.

If any pro players especially International players are not at peak or near enough peak condition that is woeful and pretty unforgiveable. Injuries aside, once players are fit enough to train fully then there is zero excuse.

What are the clubs doing then if not monitoring players condition?

I hardly think Willis is the barometer of all things fitness (I.e. are the French sides fitter)....he's only completed 80mins 5 times this season....and not once for England.

mountain man wrote:If any pro players especially International players are not at peak or near enough peak condition that is woeful and pretty unforgiveable. Injuries aside, once players are fit enough to train fully then there is zero excuse.

What are the clubs doing then if not monitoring players condition?

All players are monitored and tracked each game right down to smallest aspect.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:If any pro players especially International players are not at peak or near enough peak condition that is woeful and pretty unforgiveable. Injuries aside, once players are fit enough to train fully then there is zero excuse.

What are the clubs doing then if not monitoring players condition?

All players are monitored and tracked each game right down to smallest aspect.

Exactly, so why then is this ongoing debate about S&C? Some are on here claiming players aren't fit enough. If that was the case then clubs would know and you would like to think address it.

The monitoring and pre planned nature of things seemed pretty evident. It was an area where it all went a bit wrong.

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:If any pro players especially International players are not at peak or near enough peak condition that is woeful and pretty unforgiveable. Injuries aside, once players are fit enough to train fully then there is zero excuse.

What are the clubs doing then if not monitoring players condition?

All players are monitored and tracked each game right down to smallest aspect.

Exactly, so why then is this ongoing debate about S&C? Some are on here claiming players aren't fit enough. If that was the case then clubs would know and you would like to think address it.

The argument many, myself included, are making is that fitness standards have dropped across the Prem since the removal of relegation. It's entertaining with many tries scored now but defence is far worse in many games and sides drop off alarmingly in the second half.

As I've said before some of the most brutal games in terms of intensity and contact, therefore fitness, came from sides battling relegation. They weren't often pretty but if you're squad player in a poor side that needs wins to keep your career alive then you improve the things you can in the short term. Developing a free flowing attack isn't one of those things. Being fit and having as good a defence as possible are.

Now we see far more dud games. 40-odd plays 30-odd with forwards walking between rucks gives lots of tries for a highlights reel but does absolutely nothing to prepare players for high end internationals. It's showing IMO. Mako in recent England appearances looks a spent force but returns to the Prem and shines. At the other end of the experience scale Dombrandt looks incredible for Quins but for England has often had the endurance of an ice cube in a furnace.

OK....we've talked alot...

Do you envisage much change/experimentation for the warm up games and the world Cup.

Which positions do you really think are our biggest positional headaches?
3?
5?
8?
10?
12?
13?
11/14?

For Borthwick. 13. Reckon he realistically knows for certain the others he wants.

I think we might see quite a bit of experimentation across the midfield in the summer. Borthwick rotated a fair bit over the 6N and didn't really seem to find a combination he was happy with. There's a fair number of options to select from as well.

9. JVP, Quirke, Mitchell, Youngs, Warr
10. Farrell, Ford, Smith, Smith
12. Manu, Kelly, S Atkinson, Dingwall
13. Lawrence, Marchant, Slade, Porter, Northmore

They could all be in the mix come selection and there could be some interesting combinations amongst them.

I certainly hope we see some experimentation in the pre-RWC matches. If not, then we go into the RWC with the same rag-tag bunch which came in fourth in the Six Nations.

1.Genge, Mako
2.George, LCD
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4.Itoje
5.Chessum, Ribbans
6.Lawes, Ludlam
7.Curry, Willis
8.

9.JvP, Mitchell, Quirke
10.Farrell, Ford, Smith

11.Daly, Arundell
12.Tuilagi, Kelly
13.Slade, Lawrence
14.Watson
15.Steward, Malins

I'd guess those will be fairly inked in to a wider training squad for the warmups if fit. For a 40ish man squad, usually around there by the time a few replacements come in for rehabbing players, probably looking at adding.

1 x LH - Rodd during the Six Nations, I'd look at Marler, VRR now injured sadly.
1 x hooker - McGuigan probably front runner, I'd look at Langdon myself.
2 x second row - Martin and Isiekwe probably front runners. Maybe Launchbury.
2 x flanker - Certainly Underhill if available. I'd look at Pearson.
2 x number 8 - This is depressing. Billy now injured. Barbeary too. Mercer returning though.

2 x wing - Freeman was kept in the reduced squads later into match weeks but didn't play. Often that's an indication a player's rated but the coaches had work ons for him. Murley and OHC also looked at already. I rate Murley.
1 x centre - If they're wanting 13 cover then either of Marchant or Porter I'd guess.

LCD hasn't played since October January apparently. He might be fit by the RWC but its a more risky situation than it should be

lostinwales wrote:LCD hasn't played since October January apparently. He might be fit by the RWC but its a more risky situation than it should be

There's some rumours floating around that he might be about to retire due to the neck injury. Others that he won't be able to play in the Top 14 as planned but could play in the Prem. Also the small issue that he ended up in the drunk tank then missed his medical at Montpellier.

Lots going on there basically. It would be such a shame if we didn't see anymore of him. Such a physical player, just what England have been missing realistically.

A lot of the Prem standouts are either fairly small or don't seem very physical which is an issue at international level. McGuigan, Thacker and Dolly are in that bracket. Theo Dan seems a talent but is young and again not the biggest. I like Blamire but he's only just starting again for Falcons. Sam Riley looks talented but has two Premiership starts. Jack Walker is a good player but not one I see and think he'll make the jump.

Hookers don't have to be huge at international level of course. Julien Marchand is brilliant for instance. But he's a lot more physical than any of the above and still bigger than most there anyway!

I'm hoping Curtis Langdon gets a look in with him moving to Saints.

Blamire despite Newcastle getting a kicking looked good again. Lineout was strong doesn't seem to struggle in the scrum while still.running strongly. I really can't see why he shouldn't be much higher in the pecking order.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blamire despite Newcastle getting a kicking looked good again. Lineout was strong doesn't seem to struggle in the scrum while still.running strongly. I really can't see why he shouldn't be much higher in the pecking order.

Charlie Morgan has started talking up Theo Dan in the Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/04/23/saracens-london-irish-theo-dan-england-borthwick-world-cup/

It is the season for World Cup bolters and Theo Dan furthered his case for what would be an extraordinary rise to the England squad as Saracens ended the top-four hopes of London Irish in front of Steve Borthwick.

Dan, a bustling and busy hooker with an eye-catching turn of pace, began this campaign on loan in the Championship with Ampthill yet has seized opportunities when they have been presented across an assured breakthrough year. In the absence of the rested Jamie George and Tom Woolstencroft here, he scored one of his side’s five tries and was tidy in all facets.

The London-born 22-year-old, whose parents are Romanian, arrived at the Saracens academy as a centre-cum-wing. Via an apprenticeship with Bishop’s Stortford in the National Leagues, he has travelled the Tom Youngs route to the front row. That background is apparent in his wholehearted and dynamic carrying. Borthwick is understood to be interested in fast-tracking Dan, which could happen as soon as this summer; especially if Luke Cowan-Dickie and Jack Walker struggle to regain full fitness. Indeed, the England depth chart below George looks uncertain.

Nic Dolly should feature in Leicester Tigers’ bid for a second consecutive Premiership title. George McGuigan is back for Gloucester and Tom Dunn and Jamie Blamire came into the Six Nations shake-up. Curtis Langdon is another option. Borthwick, at StoneX Stadium with Richard Hill on Sunday, will want to be confident that Dan’s line-out throwing and scrummaging will be able to meet the requirements of the Test area. What is obvious is how the young Saracen scatters bodies on the gain-line to beat defenders. Dan, third choice at his club, is an exciting prospect with valuable traits.

“He’s got some X-factor with his carrying ability and in contact generally,” said Mark McCall afterwards. “I thought he threw really well today; that was important. He’s still got work to do and he’s getting lots of praise but there are areas of his game he knows he needs to work on.”

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blamire despite Newcastle getting a kicking looked good again. Lineout was strong doesn't seem to struggle in the scrum while still.running strongly. I really can't see why he shouldn't be much higher in the pecking order.

Charlie Morgan has started talking up Theo Dan in the Telegraph

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/04/23/saracens-london-irish-theo-dan-england-borthwick-world-cup/

It is the season for World Cup bolters and Theo Dan furthered his case for what would be an extraordinary rise to the England squad as Saracens ended the top-four hopes of London Irish in front of Steve Borthwick.

Dan, a bustling and busy hooker with an eye-catching turn of pace, began this campaign on loan in the Championship with Ampthill yet has seized opportunities when they have been presented across an assured breakthrough year. In the absence of the rested Jamie George and Tom Woolstencroft here, he scored one of his side’s five tries and was tidy in all facets.

The London-born 22-year-old, whose parents are Romanian, arrived at the Saracens academy as a centre-cum-wing. Via an apprenticeship with Bishop’s Stortford in the National Leagues, he has travelled the Tom Youngs route to the front row. That background is apparent in his wholehearted and dynamic carrying. Borthwick is understood to be interested in fast-tracking Dan, which could happen as soon as this summer; especially if Luke Cowan-Dickie and Jack Walker struggle to regain full fitness. Indeed, the England depth chart below George looks uncertain.

Nic Dolly should feature in Leicester Tigers’ bid for a second consecutive Premiership title. George McGuigan is back for Gloucester and Tom Dunn and Jamie Blamire came into the Six Nations shake-up. Curtis Langdon is another option. Borthwick, at StoneX Stadium with Richard Hill on Sunday, will want to be confident that Dan’s line-out throwing and scrummaging will be able to meet the requirements of the Test area. What is obvious is how the young Saracen scatters bodies on the gain-line to beat defenders. Dan, third choice at his club, is an exciting prospect with valuable traits.

“He’s got some X-factor with his carrying ability and in contact generally,” said Mark McCall afterwards. “I thought he threw really well today; that was important. He’s still got work to do and he’s getting lots of praise but there are areas of his game he knows he needs to work on.”

I agree and would like to see Blamire get a shot.

I read the Charlie Morgan article and I think he rather overstates Dan's play. If Theo Dan has a future with England, he needs to get more game time with his club first. He looks like what he is - a young player with potential who still has to develop. Another candidate for after the RWC.

Theo Dan might well be a good option in the coming years. Needs to keep working on his set piece and physicality, like a lot of young hookers. Gets around the park well in the McGuigan, Dolly style not quite up there with Thacker but he's a bit better in the tight than Harry.

I agree re Blamire. He's been rampaging around for Falcons. Needs to tighten up his lineout throws but otherwise is a good all rounder and given the two hookers ahead of him he is similar in style.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Theo Dan might well be a good option in the coming years. Needs to keep working on his set piece and physicality, like a lot of young hookers. Gets around the park well in the McGuigan, Dolly style not quite up there with Thacker but he's a bit better in the tight than Harry.

I agree re Blamire. He's been rampaging around for Falcons. Needs to tighten up his lineout throws but otherwise is a good all rounder and given the two hookers ahead of him he is similar in style.

Work in progress but its improving rapidly...id class it as "solid" now. But he WILL get challenged by Ollie Fletcher at the Falcons...hes a class act and in his few games this season has shown up very well.

Next season is going to be fascinating ....so many young English lads will be really looking to get gametime and push their claims to start for their clubs. Some potentially fantastic young players aswell.

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Theo Dan might well be a good option in the coming years. Needs to keep working on his set piece and physicality, like a lot of young hookers. Gets around the park well in the McGuigan, Dolly style not quite up there with Thacker but he's a bit better in the tight than Harry.

I agree re Blamire. He's been rampaging around for Falcons. Needs to tighten up his lineout throws but otherwise is a good all rounder and given the two hookers ahead of him he is similar in style.

Work in progress but its improving rapidly...id class it as "solid" now. But he WILL get challenged by Ollie Fletcher at the Falcons...hes a class act and in his few games this season has shown up very well.

Next season is going to be fascinating ....so many young English lads will be really looking to get gametime and push their claims to start for their clubs. Some potentially fantastic young players aswell.

The tournament with the Championship clubs at the start of the season gives an extended pre season for the Prem clubs and will be a great platform for some of the younger lads to stick their hands up.

I liked what I saw of young Fletcher. Not as mobile or as effective in the carry as Blamire but for a young hooker his throwing was extremely good at lineout time. That's something that normally gets developed over time. Think he'll get a good bit of game time next season at Falcons.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Theo Dan might well be a good option in the coming years. Needs to keep working on his set piece and physicality, like a lot of young hookers. Gets around the park well in the McGuigan, Dolly style not quite up there with Thacker but he's a bit better in the tight than Harry.

I agree re Blamire. He's been rampaging around for Falcons. Needs to tighten up his lineout throws but otherwise is a good all rounder and given the two hookers ahead of him he is similar in style.

Work in progress but its improving rapidly...id class it as "solid" now. But he WILL get challenged by Ollie Fletcher at the Falcons...hes a class act and in his few games this season has shown up very well.

Next season is going to be fascinating ....so many young English lads will be really looking to get gametime and push their claims to start for their clubs. Some potentially fantastic young players aswell.

The tournament with the Championship clubs at the start of the season gives an extended pre season for the Prem clubs and will be a great platform for some of the younger lads to stick their hands up.

I liked what I saw of young Fletcher. Not as mobile or as effective in the carry as Blamire but for a young hooker his throwing was extremely good at lineout time. That's something that normally gets developed over time. Think he'll get a good bit of game time next season at Falcons.

Agree about the Championship/Premiership competition, at least for the upcoming RWC year. And I see a few benefits:
First, as you say, gives a great opportunity for younger players to get valuable game time as well as real visibility.
Second, takes, at least a little, attention away from the RWC and back on the Rugby in England.
Finally, gives everyone a chance to make a little extra money. As we know, that can't be underestimated though this will probably not be that much.

No doubt discussed previously, but I am interested in others viewpoints as to the changes to the English rugby set up required going forward.

Do we need central contracts to properly manage players and ensure they are well looked after and in the best condition for internationals? Plus removing that financial burden will help the clubs out as well.

Does the premiership need fewer games and have relegation restored? Raise the quality, but reduce the volume.

Do we need a clear structure to the season so everyone knows clearly what is going on? European games, premiership games etc. It is unacceptable for clubs to not have a home game for over a month.

Seems like Ireland have a massive advantage currently and that the RFU need to lead a complete overhaul along with Premiership rugby. Central contracts would at least be a good starting point for me.

There are lots of things that could be done better, but the barriers to change are that the RFU does not control the clubs in the same way that the IRFU controls the provinces.

There would have been an opportunity to do something about that this year if the RFU had the cash to inject into the club game, but it doesn't because it's still paying for the East Stand redevelopment. There might still be a chance to negotiate a revised deal - but the RFU doesn't have as many bargaining chips as it might have done.

hugehandoff wrote:No doubt discussed previously, but I am interested in others viewpoints as to the changes to the English rugby set up required going forward.

Do we need central contracts to properly manage players and ensure they are well looked after and in the best condition for internationals? Plus removing that financial burden will help the clubs out as well.

Does the premiership need fewer games and have relegation restored? Raise the quality, but reduce the volume.

Do we need a clear structure to the season so everyone knows clearly what is going on? European games, premiership games etc. It is unacceptable for clubs to not have a home game for over a month.

Seems like Ireland have a massive advantage currently and that the RFU need to lead a complete overhaul along with Premiership rugby. Central contracts would at least be a good starting point for me.

Thanks for putting this out there, mate.  Great subjects to discuss…..

For me, I don’t see the advantages to central contracts.  In the big picture it is just another business process or business model and the problems of club stability and financial health as well as the under-performance of the national side are not related to business process.  It is down to competence and clearly defined areas of responsibility of the people working in the clubs and RFU.  And all that suffers from a lack of strong leadership on both sides as well as a shared vision (yes, the vision thing).  I think Ireland arre doing well because they have good people are aligned and who seem to know what they are doing.

In addition, I would not want anyone who is not invested in my business or performance success of my club/business telling me what I can do with my personnel.  I would fight that all day long.  Also, I think it would be a clear step towards changing the current balance between the clubs and RFU toward prioritizing the national squad at the expense of the clubs.  I think both are equally important.  

There is no question for me that there are too many games.  Both for the health of our players and for the quality over quantity.  Trying to ride our ever more put-upon players like over used plough horses to create the revenue is ultimately self-defeating.  The current performance of England is partially attributable to years and years of this, methinks.  The problem is the baked-in business model takes advantage of just adding games to achieve financial goals and it will take creativity - and will - to get anything to change.  To me, some kind of change is coming, whether in partnership and with prior planning or forced by events.  Better to be ahead of it.

And to your point about the structure to the season!  Alas, only a lobotomy patient would go so far to say we have a sound business or season structure.  So, yes, we need this.  A season which skids from Premiership to Internationals to Euro Rugby to Premiership to Internationals (6 Nations) to Premiership to Euro to Premiership to Euro to Premiership to Summer Internationals is nuts.  The only world in which this could be considered as acceptable is the…... amateur one.  Which is a major part of the problem.  

Ultimately, we have co-equal businesses, the RFU and that collection of clubs which form the PRL, which are sovereign businesses in their own right.  Everyone’s business rights have to be respected and they all need to find common goals and align on how to get there.  Unfortunately, I have been saying most of this for 20 years…

The issue with central contracts comes when you end up with most of the England players at a few clubs which will lead to a massive decline in the others.

I'd prefer what Mark McCall suggested earlier in the season which is a more equal distribution of cash across the EPS players rather than in matchday payments. The match fees are difficult to rely on when players are planning their financial future. You might end up in the EPS, go through a ton of training camps with that extra strain and risk of injury, then not make the matchday squads. Tommy Freeman in the Six Nations for instance. If he'd been injured holding tackle pads before the France game I'd have been interested to hear his opinion on the distribution of that cash.

If we were to see situations such as the rumoured one with Anthony Watson then IMO the club who brought him through their academy should get first refusal.

When the Premiership was stronger financially they really needed to invest in either a proper A-league or the Championship as a development league to bridge the gap between the then improving U20s setup and what was then a strong Premiership. They chose the Championship, made it professional in name but not practice by half arsing it leading to it becoming a real mess. Since ring fencing we are seeing an ever growing number of Premiership games look like that stepping stone from U20s. The quality of some games is extremely poor. Over the last couple of weekends there have been sides who's seasons are over that frankly looked like they'd been on the lash during the week. Defence has been amateur at times.

Dig a bit below the surface of the Pro 14/URC model and I don't think it's the answer either. Ireland and Leinster are fantastic at the moment but there's an argument to be made that they purely use the league as a means of qualifying for the Champions Cup then view it as a development tool that can be ignored or prioritised as wanted. It's working currently for Ireland and the province with most their squad. I'm not sure that could possibly work in England when the fan base outside of the sides bolstered by RFU cash give up on their clubs fading performance though. From a Welsh perspective the regions are in absolute strife. Scotland meanwhile are doing better as an international side but when discussing long term viability of it is vital to note that more than half of their Six Nations squad didn't learn their rugby in Scotland. I'd add to this that I'm in no way wanting an eligibility argument or looking to irk posters who support URC sides here. Merely giving my view on an alternative model and why I'm not sure it's the answer for the English system.

Think that first paragraph is the solution to England and a real problem king. Even without any changes to the structure of the league etc I think its hugely beneficial to have the best English players playing with each other as often as possible. It brings understanding trust and a team spirit before you have to do anything as an international coach.

As you point out not necessarily good for others.

It's a solution which feels a lot like people are looking at what's worked for other nations and trying to shoehorn it into a system that I don't think it is a workable solution for. Basically thinking, "hey that works currently in Ireland", but ignoring the difference in the countries and how the game's structured there both now and traditionally.

Ireland being a smaller country with a smaller population and main rugby areas being largely concentrated around Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Belfast means that you can relatively easily channel talent into a few teams. With England's rugby populace more spread out you will inevitably lose talent from the areas further away from the few chosen teams. Unless their family can afford to move to support a child's potential career or go to boarding school of course. Which acerbates an already big issue for English rugby.

Fully utilising talent in the North of England is already a huge problem since Leeds folded. Even if Sale were one of 3 or 4 clubs with the talent and funding pumped in that is only going to get worse.

My prediction if they do that is that we'll see a short term improvement for England and maybe one or two of those bigger clubs doing a bit better in Europe, though whether they'd remain unable to regularly compete with Toulouse or Leinster short term is a big question, then a massive crash that they aren't in a position to recover from. I just don't see a situation in which a few clubs get big funding and get the best players yet the other clubs remain well enough funded or supported to develop the talent spread around the country.

I'm just thinking back to the group we had at Saracens and how that benefitted us as well. Granted they cheated to do it but a great core of players.

If only we could ever get a foothold into league territory and get some of those lads into Union academies.

I think talk of the cohesiveness from that Sarries unit in the early Jones period is overstated a bit. Mako, George, Itoje, Kruis, Billy and Farrell would be the consistently involved Sarries players then. So only one back for instance but the backline was functioning very well in attack and defence.

I think we all know, and are likely bored of me explaining, how highly I rated Kruis and dream of him miraculously coming out of retirement but he was in and out of starting at full strength depending on tactics with Lawes sometimes preferred.

George was riding the bench for a long while with the lineout and scrum going very well with Hartley at hooker. I guess you can then argue the Hartley-Lawes and George-Kruis-Itoje club links but I don't remember Lawes having any issue with George or Hartley with the Sarries players for instance.

Daly made the switch to Sarries in 2019 after the last RWC so not really a part of that either.

I think that success was the culmination of a few things. Lancaster laid a good foundation of players he capped and gave experience to. It landed in a coming together of lots of talent from the heavily invested in academies and U20s who had then been sufficiently prepared by a strong Premiership when moving into senior rugby. Jones and a very talented coaching team (Borthwick as a forwards coach, Hatley as scrum and Gustard as defence are renowned as superb in those specialties) then came together at a near perfect time to harness that and did so extremely well.

Sarries were playing in a very high standard of European competition and were driving the standards in a much stronger Premiership regularly which no doubt helped make those players what they are. But I think that comes back more to the issues around the Premiership weakening than getting lots of England players at one club.

Story in the times saying Borthwick is laying the blame at the fault of the players conditioning. I found the line 'It is understood Borthwick would not have drawn up the game plan he did for the opening-round defeat by Scotland had he known the squad's level of fitness.'

I find it pretty concerning from a coaching perspective.

I'd find it more concerning from a player perspective and once again the quality of the Premiership to be honest. When guys that dominate domestically look practically amateur in terms of conditioning against top Six Nations counterparts it's a big worry.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Story in the times saying Borthwick is laying the blame at the fault of the players conditioning. I found the line 'It is understood Borthwick would not have drawn up the game plan he did for the opening-round defeat by Scotland had he known the squad's level of fitness.'

I find it pretty concerning from a coaching perspective.

Considering Borthwick doesn't like talking in detail to the press I doubt very much he said that directly. I can imagine he's said he wants to improve the players conditioning and then the papers have run with it.

Let's face it he hasn't brought in Aled Walters just because he likes his company (though he is supposed to be as mad as a bag of frogs).

No 7&1/2 wrote:Story in the times saying Borthwick is laying the blame at the fault of the players conditioning. I found the line 'It is understood Borthwick would not have drawn up the game plan he did for the opening-round defeat by Scotland had he known the squad's level of fitness.'

I find it pretty concerning from a coaching perspective.

I read that article about Borthwick.  The thought that occurred to me was if Borthwick was including his former players at Tigers in this assessment.  The 'yes' answer or 'no' answer to that question could be equally concerning.  

Also concerning, though not terribly surprising, is why the reporter did not mention this pretty obvious point.  But that concern is about standards of journalism....

Well i guess it's an excuse that disappears from the next set of games.

Tom Harrison now approached to be scrum coach. Very Leicester centric.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Story in the times saying Borthwick is laying the blame at the fault of the players conditioning. I found the line 'It is understood Borthwick would not have drawn up the game plan he did for the opening-round defeat by Scotland had he known the squad's level of fitness.'

I find it pretty concerning from a coaching perspective.

Considering Borthwick doesn't like talking in detail to the press I doubt very much he said that directly.

It's from the RFU review of the Six Nations. The Telegraph reported this last week, though the review doesn't seem to have been published, so it sounds like a briefing (leak) straight to a journalist.

Beeb:

'The Rugby Football Union should lift temporary restrictions on overseas players representing England, says the Rugby Players' Association.

RPA general secretary Christian Day says the Premiership's £5m salary cap means England stars are looking abroad.

Toulouse flanker Jack Willis is the only overseas player eligible to play for England after Wasps' collapse.

The RFU says players based outside the English top flight can only be picked in exceptional circumstances.

Day says the current rule should be paused until the salary cap rises to £6.4m in 2024-25.

"If the cap continues to be suppressed then we will continue to say the players can't get fair value in this country," Day said.

"For people like Jack Willis - and there are one or two others - who can't get fair value in this country at the moment primarily because the cap's suppressed, we think they should be able to go and be selected.

"We think that should exist next year as well."

England internationals Joe Marchant, Sam Simmonds, Luke Cowan-Dickie and David Ribbans are all set to join Willis in the Top 14 next season.

Anthony Watson is also facing an uncertain future when his contract expires at Leicester in July.

On the possibility of joint contracts being introduced for international stars, Day said: "There are other things that also play into it - the availability of England players is becoming a big issue.

"If players are unavailable for 10 games a year, it diminishes their own value with their club.

"As much as they're one of the best players, their club instead sees value in other players and we need to fix that.

"Clubs should be fighting for England players, not saying they get better value out of someone else."'

It would presumably require a renegotiating of the PGA, therein the EPS, between PRL and the RFU. Rugby loves an acronym.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Tom Harrison now approached to be scrum coach. Very Leicester centric.

Rumours are that Ian Peel was the first choice but Sarries wouldn't agree a release.

Harrison is a very good young scrum coach to be fair. So no qualms about his ability as an individual.

Prior to Felix Jones joining after the RWC it is just the Tigers team though. Whilst I rate them all as coaches individually I don't think that lack of variety in voices is a good thing at interantional level.

Head coach - Borthwick
Defence - Sinfield
Attack/skills - Wigglesworth
S&C - Walters
Scrum - Harrison

Sinfield and WW have an absolute ton of varying rugby experience of course but all their coaching was at Tigers prior to England. In Harrison there's someone who came up through the coaching ranks rather than being a big name pro player who slid straight into coaching. I do think having that sort of coach in teams for a different perspective is good. But again his senior coaching is all Tigers.

I think Felix Jones adding that extra voice in terms of tactics from someone who's worked with a different international side is very important there. I also think someone who's coached attack and defence is brilliant in the modern game. Wayne Smith did wonders in connecting the ABs game across both areas by being able to coach both. Interestingly Vesty is moving to coaching Saints floundering defence too. I think it will happen more and more. Jones isn't coming until after the RWC though.

Borthwick is clearly single minded about those he works with. He joined Tigers to run the first team with Geordan Murphy still taking on a managerial role for the club as as whole from DOR but Smurf quickly made way. Boris Stankovich was a very well respected scrum coach but apparently left as he didn't want to keep Borth's workaholic hours. Jan McGinity was doing a really good job with recruitment but was suddenly moved on for Richard Wilks, who was Borthwick's agent. To Wilks credit he's done very well too. Whilst Borthwick's changes clearly worked at Tigers. He clearly wants particular characters around him.

It worked wonders at club level. Whether the same will be true at international level remains to be seen. Or whether Borthwick will adapt his style if and as needed. I expressed concerns that it was too early for SB but felt he was a reasonable candidate compared to other options. Robertson for instance had more head coach experience but basically none internationally (a year with the NZ U20s) and none outside NZ. So was the same in having an impressive but limited CV. The more experienced domestic options in McCall or Baxter weren't even interested it seems.

If the RFU do not adequately recompense the clubs for the use of their players what is the incentive for clubs to sign England players when they are just going to end up losing them for long periods of the season? And because of the higher intensity of international rugby they are going to be more prone to tiredness and injury.

That may not amount to central contracts, but the RFU need to more than cover the players salary. With Owen Farrell reportedly on £750k pa, the RFU would be looking to pay Saracens somewhere between £250k and £375k. The amounts that the RFU pay the clubs should be deducted from the salary payment for salary cap purposes, so that Saracens could then go out and include 1 or 2 younger players to cover Farrell.

The alternative seems to be the Sale approach where you just go out and get a load of South Africans who will be available all season. When we signed Ford he was out of the England squad with no apparent way back. The only players we have signed with England potential has been Jonny Hill and Manu. I don't see how Sale filling their team with good but not great South Africans help England.

It's probably more expensive to buy in than to develop players albeit less risky quality wise. The agreement is about English qualified rather than England players so you can develop or have a lot and theoretically not lose anyone. Sale are currently in a period where they've signed a bulk of sa s but that's really the saracen blue print while they developed their academy.

Sale have tended to always produce local talent, the issue has generally been keeping it. They've turned to SA talent to bulk the team out where required but that isn't a bad or unusual tactic. They've refined the side down now using their strength to appeal to players from other Prem clubs that wouldn't have been so interested five years ago.

I don't see there being much issue with the talent available to the national team, there's plenty of young talent emerging. We do have an issue that there isn't many established internationals in the 25-29 category where you want a good core of talent in their peak years. Not always a pre-requisite for winning the world cup though.

Sharkey06 wrote:That may not amount to central contracts, but the RFU need to more than cover the players salary.  With Owen Farrell reportedly on £750k pa, the RFU would be looking to pay Saracens somewhere between £250k and £375k.  The amounts that the RFU pay the clubs should be deducted from the salary payment for salary cap purposes, so that Saracens could then go out and include 1 or 2 younger players to cover Farrell.

To me this is a very good idea.  Pay for time you have access to the asset.  I suppose this is the kind of thing which happens in proper businesses.  But I am also sure the RFU would want a say in the total compensation.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I don't see there being much issue with the talent available to the national team, there's plenty of young talent emerging. We do have an issue that there isn't many established internationals in the 25-29 category where you want a good core of talent in their peak years. Not always a pre-requisite for winning the world cup though.

Agree, having a team's core in the 25-29 age group is not necessary to be a RWC winner, but that age group almost always forms the core of most successful (and not so successful) teams in most pro sports.

I see in today's Telegraph they have come down hard for Jack Willis as the England 7.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/05/02/england-world-cup-jack-willis-leads-openside-flankers/

So, reading up on Henry Thomas it appears he was once very highly rated. Then he joined Bath and seems to have disappeared into obscurity... Obscurity, Bath. He seems to have been around the Montpellier first team this season, but didn't play in last year's final.

doctor_grey wrote:I see in today's Telegraph they have come down hard for Jack Willis as the England 7.  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/05/02/england-world-cup-jack-willis-leads-openside-flankers/

Willis at 7, Mercer at 8.

mikey_dragon wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I see in today's Telegraph they have come down hard for Jack Willis as the England 7.  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/05/02/england-world-cup-jack-willis-leads-openside-flankers/

Willis at 7, Mercer at 8.

Bienvenue en Angleterre, mes amis