England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

mikey_dragon wrote:So, reading up on Henry Thomas it appears he was once very highly rated. Then he joined Bath and seems to have disappeared into obscurity... Obscurity, Bath. He seems to have been around the Montpellier first team this season, but didn't play in last year's final.

He looked a superb talent when he was younger, really dynamic in the loose. I remember watching him for Sale and thinking he was destined for a long international career. He just didn't seem to kick on, I think that injuries hampered him quite a lot and he was overshadowed by players who were also dynamic and rated higher by Jones, it just didn't quite align for him. Good player though.

Thomas was a fantastic talent hampered by injury but also the change in scrum laws. He was dominant in the hit during his early Sale days then when things shifted from crouch-touch-pause-engage to crouch-bind-set when he moved to Bath he seemed to take time adjusting. Almost a reverse Matt Mullan who looked a remarkably better scrummager immediately after the hit was removed. It's an interesting factor in prop play around that time which isn't mentioned as much as it maybe should be. Joe Marler was another that looked a lot better after the shift for instance. It really changed many props careers.

Thomas was an impressive ball carrier with good hands in his early days. When he came back from injury he often seemed to struggle to regain match fitness that quickly though. He wasn't in the Keiran Brookes living off cheeseburgers out of season category but seemed to take some time to get back going.

He's really third choice for Montpellier behind Mohamed Haouas and Titi Lamositele but has made a decent number of apps, albeit predominantly off the bench, as cover for those two.

The removal of the hit changed the game for a lot of tightheads.

Quins won the Premiership with James Johnston and a bit upset when he went to Sarries - but even at the time some of us were arguing that the change in engagement would favour smaller tightheads with better power endurance. And we were rewarded with the emergence of Sinckler and Collier.

Marler's a slightly different story - he has said that he came back from his first tour (to South Africa) realising that he needed to be a much better scrummager to last at international level, and made a deliberate choice to reshape himself.

Roll on a decade and we're seeing some big props who are suited to the Crouch-Bind-Set engageent coming through (and even more so in the women's game) - but it's likely that there'll always be a place for the Tom Smith type tighthead who can get beneath their opponent and just can't be budged.

Henry Thomas had a couple of serious Injuries in his time at Bath and he sometimes struggled with real power LH scrummagers getting under him. He had numerous games where his running game though was a joy to watch and was probably one of the forerunners for mobile ball handling TH props in recent English test history.
I think he didn't get the contract he wanted at Bath and felt the need for a fresh start.

Being now eligible for Wales is a bit of a mockery, but not the first ridiculous ruling from World Rugby.......

doctor_grey wrote:I see in today's Telegraph they have come down hard for Jack Willis as the England 7.  

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/05/02/england-world-cup-jack-willis-leads-openside-flankers/

Great...the hype train is back in motion, he must have got a turnover did he? I didn't catch the full game but I didn't even notice Willis was playing tbh.

mikey_dragon wrote:So, reading up on Henry Thomas it appears he was once very highly rated. Then he joined Bath and seems to have disappeared into obscurity... Obscurity, Bath. He seems to have been around the Montpellier first team this season, but didn't play in last year's final.

I seem to recall him being a bit like Gethin Jenkins but not as good at scrummaging. He was really highly thought of when around 21/22....but never really kicked on, especially in the set-piece.

I’m surprised the Welsh “scouts” haven’t been looking up Phil Vickery’s grandmother’s historical movements - surely he must now be eligible, been a few years since his last cap for a proper nation

Poorfour wrote:Roll on a decade and we're seeing some big props who are suited to the Crouch-Bind-Set engageent coming through (and even more so in the women's game) - but it's likely that there'll always be a place for the Tom Smith type tighthead who can get beneath their opponent and just can't be budged.

Danillo Fischetti is certainly that mould. He's an absolutely brilliant player who had a terrific Six Nations. Cyril Baille isn't a monster either but a cracking player in set-piece and loose.

The Six Nations was very strong at LH I thought. Schoeman was the best of the lot for me. Porter was very good indeed for Ireland. Then Genge I actually thought had a decent tournament.

5 very different body types there. Fischetti is shorter and looks very lean for a prop. Baille is also shorter but looks more like a old school prop but gets round the park fantastically well. Schoeman is practically square as he's so broad and barrel chested. Porter is a freak powerlifter and built like it. Genge is leaner like Fischetti but taller and pretty long legged for a prop but makes it work.

I think the next shift at prop will be what we are seeing France do with Falatea. Specialist impact subs. He was on the bench for all 5 games but Antonio, Haouas and Aldegheri all started ahead of him. Had Demba Bamba been fit he may well have done too. I think that could happen more and more. Players developed with a clear view to having the biggest impact possible from the bench even if they may never be suited to starting. Nephi Leatigaga was very good for Tigers in this role.

Biyi Alo for instance has talked about being as big as possible (140kg at one point, biggest in the Prem) helping him in the scrum but he slimmed down to play more minutes. From England's perspective though is it more useful to have Alo try to be absolutely gigantic, specialise in coming on with 20-25 minutes left for as big an impact as possible in a shorter period?

Of course these players still need to be capable of playing longer when necessary to cover earlier injuries but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a shift towards more of these sort of props who make significantly more bench apps than starts at club and international level.

It'll be interesting to see how that plays out in both the men's and women's game.

In the women's game, there are some powerful props but they generally aren't that tall - however this year saw the emergence of Sisilia Tuipolotu in the Welsh pack, who both tall and has around a 10kg advantage over most of her peers. She was very effective and went toe to toe with the English pack until she got injured.

In the meantime, Sarah Bern has become very much a prop in the Tom Smith mould - not tall, but very powerful (and she even joked with us about how she'd changed shape since 2017 when my daughter spoke to her after the Wales game). Two very different styles of player but both hugely effective in the same position.

I'm still slightly staggered moving away from the changes in scrum rules and body type in how little we spent on training (under Jones) from the comments coming from Sinckler. Even more surprised as Proudfoot's major plus point seemed to be the scrum. Then you hear that next to nothing was trained for and the players were expected to throw something together almost on match day.

king_carlos wrote:I think the next shift at prop will be what we are seeing France do with Falatea. Specialist impact subs. He was on the bench for all 5 games but Antonio, Haouas and Aldegheri all started ahead of him. Had Demba Bamba been fit he may well have done too. I think that could happen more and more. Players developed with a clear view to having the biggest impact possible from the bench even if they may never be suited to starting. Nephi Leatigaga was very good for Tigers in this role.

Biyi Alo for instance has talked about being as big as possible (140kg at one point, biggest in the Prem) helping him in the scrum but he slimmed down to play more minutes. From England's perspective though is it more useful to have Alo try to be absolutely gigantic, specialise in coming on with 20-25 minutes left for as big an impact as possible in a shorter period?

Of course these players still need to be capable of playing longer when necessary to cover earlier injuries but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a shift towards more of these sort of props who make significantly more bench apps than starts at club and international level.

Bloody hell, I hope you are wrong! But in today's world when it seems a lot of things are increasingly specialised, sure seems like that's coming. Happenning in other sports and will happen here too. To be fair, that would entail some risk if the starting prop has to come off early.

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I think the next shift at prop will be what we are seeing France do with Falatea. Specialist impact subs. He was on the bench for all 5 games but Antonio, Haouas and Aldegheri all started ahead of him. Had Demba Bamba been fit he may well have done too. I think that could happen more and more. Players developed with a clear view to having the biggest impact possible from the bench even if they may never be suited to starting. Nephi Leatigaga was very good for Tigers in this role.

Biyi Alo for instance has talked about being as big as possible (140kg at one point, biggest in the Prem) helping him in the scrum but he slimmed down to play more minutes. From England's perspective though is it more useful to have Alo try to be absolutely gigantic, specialise in coming on with 20-25 minutes left for as big an impact as possible in a shorter period?

Of course these players still need to be capable of playing longer when necessary to cover earlier injuries but I wouldn't be surprised if there is a shift towards more of these sort of props who make significantly more bench apps than starts at club and international level.

Bloody hell, I hope you are wrong!  But in today's world when it seems a lot of things are increasingly specialised, sure seems like that's coming.  Happenning in other sports and will happen here too.  To be fair, that would entail some risk if the starting prop has to come off early.

These guys can start when needed. Falatea came on early in the first half against Scotland after Haouas was sent off. He also has started against La Rochelle and Montpellier twice each this season. Yet he has just 18 starts in his pro career including the one start for France.

Despite all the replacement apps his minutes played are much higher than they would traditionally have been for a bench player. In the past you either started and played a ton of minutes or didn't start and played very little. That is shifting significantly with players such as Falatea. He played 181 minutes in the Six Nations in 5 apps. That's boosted by the early introduction against Scotland of course but even remove that and he's averaging very nearly 30 minutes a match.

France use him so smartly from a tactical perspective too. At a point when big carriers such as Aldritt who have been there since KO might be tiring they can use Falatea to carry very often as he's fresh. He can take on the dog work which allows the likes of Aldritt and Ollivon who have been there all game to prioritise when and where they use energy carrying as the opposition tire.

It's a really interesting tactical option. Whether subs a good thing for rugby as players get bigger and bigger is a different question of course. But it's the players and coaches job to win games within the rules presented.

Beeb:

'The boss of Premiership Rugby says it is vital to keep rules in place which prevent England from picking overseas-based players.

A handful of England internationals are moving to France after this year's World Cup, ruling them out of contention for the 2024 Six Nations.

Amid calls to relax the policy, Simon Massie-Taylor says it is "really important" for English rugby.

"We need to keep the talent within our system," he told BBC Radio 5 Live.

"It has always been the desire, certainly from the Premiership side of things, to have the talent there to help grow the league, but from an England point of view it allows them more access and more time to train with England within club time.

"That doesn't happen if a player is playing abroad in a different league, so you have an access issue which affects England performance."

The RFU says players based outside the English top flight can only be picked in exceptional circumstances.

Subscribe to the Rugby Union Weekly podcast
The Rugby Players' Association is among those to call for the restrictions to be temporarily lifted in light of a lowered salary cap, and while Massie-Taylor admits there is currently a financial gap between the Premiership and France's Top 14, he feels it is a "lot narrower" than is being portrayed.

"There has always been a gap between what our clubs spend and what is spent in France," Premiership Rugby's chief executive said.

"That gap got wider during the Covid period but will narrow again when the salary cap goes back up in 2024-2025.

"But coupled with that - and we have looked into this in a bit more detail - the average salaries across the league are comparable, but also if you look at the top talent as well - the top 10, 20, 30, 40 [players], they are comparable as well.

"Now there will always be opportunities for players to find a better paid job abroad or in another system. But we are still relatively competitive at the moment and as I say that gap [with France] will narrow further in a few years."

Massie-Taylor accepts there are "a few issues" at certain clubs when it comes to retaining talent, with Exeter seeing about 20 players depart at the end of the season including England stars Jack Nowell, Sam Simmonds and Luke Cowan-Dickie.

The Chiefs signed a number of players on three-year contracts in 2020, deals which are now about to run out, but Massie-Taylor also points to the big-name players who are either entering or staying in the league next season.

"What we are seeing is the maturation of these contracts that had been signed during the Covid period reach a pinch-point before the salary cap goes back and so it has created a few issues within clubs," he said.

"Now I would say on the flip side we have Zach Mercer coming back into the system who is the Top 14 player of the year last season, we've got Finn Russell coming into the system, with Manu Tuilagi and Courtney Lawes signed up over the weekend.

"So we are not seeing an exodus here."'


This is going to reach breaking point soon. Just commented on the Hawkins situation with Wales but I think we're going to see more and more of this. I get the comments above from a club perspective but suppressing the wages through the dangling carrot of England appearance payments will only go so far especially with the lower cap at the moment.

Firstly many thanks to all who posted some thoughtful and considered replies to my post on changes to the England set up - central contracts, season structure etc - as some very interesting points made. I have been busy and travelling and completely forgot that I posted it. Great to see the replies.

So no great support for central contracts, but most think the RFU need to cover the England player wages whilst not available for their clubs. I think the big benefit for the players in Ireland is not being over played and being able to properly prepare for each of their matches. Time to condition, train and play whereas England it is play, play and play. Each player is different and some respond well to more matches and others to less. A sensible plan needs to be agreed for each player between England and the club and the club duly compensated when the player is not available.

Ideally we can ensure a nice dispersal of England talent across the clubs, which is more or less the current status quo? A couple of clubs have signed a few players more than others, but overall the prem is pretty competitive.....no easy games. Carberry was moved from Leinster to Munster to ensure he started more big games to benefit Ireland and I am not sure we need or want the RFU to have that sort of control.

But the structure of the season is the massive one as surely all stakeholders (trying to use at least 1 businessy type word) will benefit. It is vital for the clubs and their supporters to have a clear and logical season structure. It is unacceptable for our clubs to be in the financial mess they are in so maybe the appetite is there to try and tackle this?

Before the 2019 RWC England had beaten Ireland away and Sarries/Exeter were winning Europe so I appreciate that things go in cycles. Ireland have an excellent crop of current players. We need to retain the best of our club system, but bring in some changes to benefit everyone. Sadly I do not think the leadership is there in the RFU, Premiership or World rugby to enable this happen.

hugehandoff wrote:Before the 2019 RWC England had beaten Ireland away and Sarries/Exeter were winning Europe so I appreciate that things go in cycles. Ireland have an excellent crop of current players. We need to retain the best of our club system, but bring in some changes to benefit everyone. Sadly I do not think the leadership is there in the RFU, Premiership or World rugby to enable this happen.

In my opinion, the RFU, Premiership and World Rugby have a consistent and demonstrated record of.....justifying your point in bold.  I really can't think of any major team sport that has such a significant deficit of direction and leadership.

doctor_grey wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Before the 2019 RWC England had beaten Ireland away and Sarries/Exeter were winning Europe so I appreciate that things go in cycles. Ireland have an excellent crop of current players. We need to retain the best of our club system, but bring in some changes to benefit everyone. Sadly I do not think the leadership is there in the RFU, Premiership or World rugby to enable this happen.

In my opinion, the RFU, Premiership and World Rugby have a consistent and demonstrated record of.....justifying your point in bold.  I really can't think of any major team sport that has such a significant deficit of direction and leadership.

I think you’re technically correct there, but I’d rather the RFU and WR than FIFA.

Poorfour wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:Before the 2019 RWC England had beaten Ireland away and Sarries/Exeter were winning Europe so I appreciate that things go in cycles. Ireland have an excellent crop of current players. We need to retain the best of our club system, but bring in some changes to benefit everyone. Sadly I do not think the leadership is there in the RFU, Premiership or World rugby to enable this happen.

In my opinion, the RFU, Premiership and World Rugby have a consistent and demonstrated record of.....justifying your point in bold.  I really can't think of any major team sport that has such a significant deficit of direction and leadership.

I think you’re technically correct there, but I’d rather the RFU and WR than FIFA.

That's only because you prefer the honest-though-not-terribly-competent types to the blatantly corrupt who are devoid of any redeeming or human values.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65517737

All the coaches now confirmed for the world cup. We're really going into it with Wigglesworth as attack coach. Realistically should we abandon any real attacking players now and just go down the SA route of win at all costs and forget that people pay to watch?

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/65517737

All the coaches now confirmed for the world cup. We're really going into it with Wigglesworth as attack coach. Realistically should we abandon any real attacking players now and just go down the SA route of win at all costs and forget that people pay to watch?

Well yes although England don't have players SA have to win in that style but ultimately winning is everything, especially at the RWC. If England get to final(v unlikely I think) and win 3-0 by a mis-hit drop goal after a dire game I'd take that over them playing some lovely running rugby but going out in group stage.

We all want to see combination of both, great rugby and winning. NZ usually best demonstration of that but for the players and coaches they will take a win everyday and twice on Sunday regardles of how it is achieved so hoping for something else is futile.

For England to do well in RWC and onwards they I think will have to play some conservative rugby at times but also open up as well. We know they will not beat likes of SA at own power game so the key will be producing game plan tailored to opponent.

Is the assumption Wigglesworth is incapable of producing a good attack?

SB is going with what he knows and trusts, I don't know what he's supposed to do tbh. You can't build a fluent attacking machine in a few games...it needs to be simple but effective.

Tony Roques joining as contact and skills coach as well which I hadn't heard anything of before. Interesting to see that crossover from the current Sevens setup. Not a new thing of course. Amor joined as attack coach straight from Sevens previously.

Coaching contact and skills maybe points to the role that Felix Jones will fill when he joins after the RWC.

Throughout his career as a coach having someone specialise in contact area has been consistent in setups Borthwick worked in. He often took that area himself. Hatley (England), Rowntree (Lions) and Harrison (Tigers) taking the scrum then Borthwick taking lineout and contact area with some crossover. At Tigers Brett Deacon seemed to work under Borthwick with the contact area side things to free him up as head coach. Roques being in that contact area role but also working on skills fits very neatly with Felix Jones having worked across defence and backs coaching in the past.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is the assumption Wigglesworth is incapable of producing a good attack?

SB is going with what he knows and trusts, I don't know what he's supposed to do tbh. You can't build a fluent attacking machine in a few games...it needs to be simple but effective.

Tigers have opened up their attack more since WW took over as head coach. But yes that seems the presumption.

My bigger concern is players than coaching as said many times. There's a chasm between first choice forwards such as Curry, Lawes and Itoje then their replacements with the Prem looking woefully ill equipped to prepare players for international rugby. The consequences of ringfencing being laid bare. The last few weeks in particular highlighting it. So many high scoring but realistically dud games, mismatches with teams rotating, dire defence and more than the odd player looking like they're already on holiday before preseason.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Is the assumption Wigglesworth is incapable of producing a good attack?

SB is going with what he knows and trusts, I don't know what he's supposed to do tbh. You can't build a fluent attacking machine in a few games...it needs to be simple but effective.

I think the odds go down. Functional and very percentage kicks...but then it is what I thought Borthwick would go with.

And I think there is the cast of players available to play that way. Don't think Borthwick has that excuse.

At full strength I think there's the players I just worry about the depth and how prepared the next gen are. The talent is there and has been coming through the U20s and academies. I just think the standard in the Prem diving means we have players learning on the job and a league ill equipped to suggest which players will step-up.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Sinckler 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Lawes 7.Curry 8.Mercer
9.JvP 10.Ford 11.Arundell 12.Farrell 13.Lawrence 14.Watson 15.Steward

16.LCD 17.Marler 18.Stuart 19.Chessum 20.Underhill 21.Quirke 22.Tuilagi 23.Daly

Something like that I absolutely think could do well with a full RWC build up for instance. Several players have question marks over them though and I just don't have that much faith in the next best being ready in time.

Even within the above side is an obvious unknown with Mercer even. Then as said previously I do worry that Lawrence may not have the power to be a centre such as Danty or de Allende but also lacks the distribution skills or defensive strength to be a more rounded centre. He's earnt more chances, I hope he gets them but I can't shake that concern.

My concerns all lie with the coaches at the moment.

At least Fin Smith hasn't been included within the Scotland squad.

Arundell shouldn't be in consideration for a start for me. He's had a pretty lackluster season after his initial burst and still hasn't really nailed the starting 15 jersey at Irish.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Arundell shouldn't be in consideration for a start for me. He's had a pretty lackluster season after his initial burst and still hasn't really nailed the starting 15 jersey at Irish.

He's waiting for 3 years, before returning to Wales.

Arundell though has that X factor, something England not had for a while so definitely needs to be in 23 if not starting 15.
He also has genuine pace, another key strength missing for some time.

I think there a lot of back three options at the moment and each has something slightly different. Hopefully most of them receive a fair enough shot to make the RWC squad.

mountain man wrote:Arundell though has that X factor, something England not had for a while so definitely needs to be in 23 if not starting 15.
He also has genuine pace, another key strength missing for some time.

He's not showing much x factor this season and he doesn't play wing. Lads a crazy talent but isn't showing anything deserving of a wing spot currently.

Well he does play wing and has. FB he preferred position but unlikely to replace Steward unless there's an injury.

I like him as a bench option, huge potential. Prefer him there to the other likely contenders such as daly and Malins.

My spidey senses are telling me this RWC is just a wee bit early for Arundell if he is going to make the leap to international level. Clearly lots of upside but not convinced yet. But that is what the RWC warm-up will tell us.

I am sure - OK not really sure but certainly hope - Borthwick and the boyz actually select a few young'uns who have not quite cut their teeth with England yet. A couple of wild cards, assuming they do earn their spots this summer, is a good thing.

I'd probably take Caden Murley over Arundell or Malins, good all round winger and a very good try scorer. No weakness to his game either which is useful. He's finished the season as the top try scorer which is impressive as he's had a couple of injuries and Quins have been pretty ropey at times.

I'd also take Louis Lynagh as he has that that x-factor and a better all round game then most of the others.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I like him as a bench option, huge potential. Prefer him there to the other likely contenders such as daly and Malins.

I’d like to see Murley given a shot. He’s not as obviously a standout as Arundell but his stats and try scoring over the past 2-3 seasons make him worth a look. His scoring rate this season has been 18 tries in 23 appearances, which is exceptional by anyone’s standards.

Showing my bias, if Cokanasiga is fit, he will go to France and with a Lawrence/Tuilagi midfield will give opposition defences something to think about and with Steward coming into the line too. For top end speed it has to be Arundell on the other wing, who is also not adverse to popping up in midfield either.
Just to really throw it out there I would have Spencer and George Ford at half back.....

Back line for me would be Quirke Smith Radwan Kelly Lawrence H-C Steward.

VP Farrell Arundell bench.

mountain man wrote:Well he does play wing and has. FB he preferred position but unlikely to replace Steward unless there's an injury.

In 33 games he's started on the wing once.....against Ireland in the 6N.

You don't think he can cover wing then sarge?

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:Well he does play wing and has. FB he preferred position but unlikely to replace Steward unless there's an injury.

In 33 games he's started on the wing once.....against Ireland in the 6N.

yep, as I said his preferred postion is FB but plays wing. More as a sub than starter. Also as I said previously if Steward starts at 15 which is highly likely he would therefore be a wing or cover for wing/FB.

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:Well he does play wing and has. FB he preferred position but unlikely to replace Steward unless there's an injury.

In 33 games he's started on the wing once.....against Ireland in the 6N.

yep, as I said his preferred postion is FB but plays wing. More as a sub than starter. Also as I said previously if Steward starts at 15 which is highly likely he would therefore be a wing or cover for wing/FB.

So never as a starter for his club.....

It just concerns me that we're potentially selecting players that can't even get a start for their clubs in the position they're expected to excel for their country in. It's all well and good saying 15 and wing are interchangeable too, but there's a case for familiarity in a position linked to muscle memory/instincts.

I would like Arundell to nail a starting berth down for Irish and then we look at him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

mountain man wrote:Well he does play wing and has. FB he preferred position but unlikely to replace Steward unless there's an injury.

In 33 games he's started on the wing once.....against Ireland in the 6N.

yep, as I said his preferred postion is FB but plays wing. More as a sub than starter. Also as I said previously if Steward starts at 15 which is highly likely he would therefore be a wing or cover for wing/FB.

So never as a starter for his club.....

It just concerns me that we're potentially selecting players that can't even get a start for their clubs in the position they're expected to excel for their country in. It's all well and good saying 15 and wing are interchangeable too, but there's a case for familiarity in a position linked to muscle memory/instincts.

I would like Arundell to nail a starting berth down for Irish and then we look at him.

To your point, didn't Eddie Jones get lambasted for playing people out of position?  I'm with you, players need to have decent experience at Premiership level at a position before being chosen to play a position at the next level, emergencies not withstanding.

And, by the way, I can't see Steward having any competition for the 15 jersey.  Although he might not be the horse for all courses, he executes the fndamentals of a fullback so extremely well.  And having someone solid as a rock at 15 removes a major headache from Borthwick's box of migraines, which, I suspect, is overflowing at the moment.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Back line for me would be Quirke Smith Radwan Kelly Lawrence H-C Steward.

VP Farrell Arundell bench.

I missed the game Vs Falcons but otherwise Quirke hasn't really been in commanding form after his return from injury. At this point in time there's more reason to call up Gus Warr. I may be proven wrong if Quirke starts and has a great semi final game.

Ford is starting to show good form though, I'm interested to see how he and Smith get on in the friendlies before the tournament. The 10 shirt is very much up for grabs.

Quirkes the better player. May as well get him in ASAP. This isn't my prediction, just who I'd have.

doctor_grey wrote:
And, by the way, I can't see Steward having any competition for the 15 jersey.  Although he might not be the horse for all courses, he executes the fndamentals of a fullback so extremely well.  And having someone solid as a rock at 15 removes a major headache from Borthwick's box of migraines, which, I suspect, is overflowing at the moment.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Steward is excellent under the high ball and a good strike runner but I've long had concerns about his positioning in defence and off the ball, which are definitely fundamentals for a fullback. He's not as bad as Daly was, but there have definitely been moments in defence where England have been exposed by him being out of position. Sometimes that happens because there are competing priorities to deal with but I don't think that's been the case.

Steward is a good player and should improve with more experience (one reason I think Leicester signing Mike Brown was a good idea is that Brown is still one of the best positional fullbacks around), but I really hope that the coaches don't see him as unassailable in his position. If nothing else, I'd expect someone else to be tried in the 15 shirt during the warmups, because England will need at least one backup for the position.

He's massively first choice at the moment. Doesn't mean it can't change.

Poorfour wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:
And, by the way, I can't see Steward having any competition for the 15 jersey.  Although he might not be the horse for all courses, he executes the fndamentals of a fullback so extremely well.  And having someone solid as a rock at 15 removes a major headache from Borthwick's box of migraines, which, I suspect, is overflowing at the moment.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Steward is excellent under the high ball and a good strike runner but I've long had concerns about his positioning in defence and off the ball, which are definitely fundamentals for a fullback. He's not as bad as Daly was, but there have definitely been moments in defence where England have been exposed by him being out of position. Sometimes that happens because there are competing priorities to deal with but I don't think that's been the case.

Steward is a good player and should improve with more experience (one reason I think Leicester signing Mike Brown was a good idea is that Brown is still one of the best positional fullbacks around), but I really hope that the coaches don't see him as unassailable in his position. If nothing else, I'd expect someone else to be tried in the 15 shirt during the warmups, because England will need at least one backup for the position.

Positionally in the backfield he's rarely out of position and normally covers a lot of ground, often swapping with wingers to put himself under pressure for box kicks down the 15m channel.

Defensively he can be caught out. It doesn't help that he likes to plant his feet and put in a big hit. Not to dissimilar to Brown in that way. It's an area to develop but at 22 there's plenty of time on his side to round out his game.

I suspect Daly will be included in the squad as handy experience for most the backline. I'd like to see Freeman get used more and given at least one start in a friendly at fullback.

Can't remember if Freeman was part of the squads now from the 6Ns? Will be interesting to see the thinking going in the WC as all the guys who can play multiple positions come to the fore a bit more. Could well be Arundell is the next in line for FB given his match day squad inclusion, Daly, Freeman as you said. Also Malins, Furbank, Watson?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't remember if Freeman was part of the squads now from the 6Ns? Will be interesting to see the thinking going in the WC as all the guys who can play multiple positions come to the fore a bit more. Could well be Arundell is the next in line for FB given his match day squad inclusion, Daly, Freeman as you said. Also Malins, Furbank, Watson?

None of those 3 generate much confidence at international level, although its always good to have Watson on the pitch if he's not injured and showing form.

Freeman was kept in the reduced training squads later into training weeks across the Six Nations but didn't make a 23. That's usually indicative of a player who's rated, hence being kept for more contact time with coaches, but they feel has work ons before being picked.