England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Continued......

Another reason to allow overseas players then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Another reason to allow overseas players then.

Which further weakens your league and stops England having full access to the players....

Lol. Round and round we go. Raise the cap again, or turn a blind eye to Saracen, Leicester et al and then there'll be the top end competition for Europe. It may help to concentrate top players at a few clubs. The league has always been lop sided so just lean into it.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Lol. Round and round we go. Raise the cap again, or turn a blind eye to Saracen, Leicester et al and then there'll be the top end competition for Europe. It may help to concentrate top players at a few clubs. The league has always been lop sided so just lean into it.

Exactly....there's just not a simple answer for it.

Well it's not an actual issue for me. I think we've benefitted from some foreign players moving on allowing youngsters more chances. Some of these guys like Pearson, Fin Smith etc are receiving rave reviews. I think the removal or actual enforcement of the cap has impacted us at the top end with Saracens, and let's face it they're the standard bearer over the last 10 years. But I don't think overall the league is weaker. I do think the current England coaches are a step down of anything we've had probably since Robinson as an overall group. I think its latter that is the issue at the moment. They're got to improve alot and it just feels that that wasn't the primary aim of the rfu when Borthwick was chosen.

Just to combine some points a bit too, the lowering of standards etc have also been pointed as the reason Borthwick has started slowly, in terms of competition and fitness. It strikes me as odd then when you had Willis being removed pretty consistently very early (with his French fitness regime) but then guys like George left on for the majority of most (was it all?) matches. That to me makes little sense. To square that circle we're now again contemplating George and LCD carry injuries with the potential of going into the world cup with no experience at hooker.

Some of these guys like Pearson, Fin Smith etc are receiving rave reviews. I think the removal or actual enforcement of the cap has impacted us at the top end with Saracens

They'll always be the exception but in reality, youngsters are coming into a league which is weaker so they'll always looker better than previous years (as a whole).

Youngsters are getting chances earlier......this again can go a few ways. In one way, they don't have to be as good to get a chance now as they don't have as much quality in front of them. On the flip, they may improve quicker as they're getting a chance earlier.

But I don't think overall the league is weaker

The league is weaker than previous years....I don't even see this as much as a debate tbh. You're the first person I've seen to suggest that the Prem is as strong as previous seasons.

Just look at the squads across the boards....look at some of the results.....look at the performances in Europe (we probably exceeded expectations actually this season).

Just to pull a rough example up....

Saracens bench for 2019 Euro final:

HK 16 Joe Gray
PR 17 Richard Barrington
PR 18 Vincent Koch
LK 19 Nick Isiekwe
FL 20 Schalk Burger
SH 21 Richard Wigglesworth
CE 22 Nick Tompkins
WG 23 David Strettle

Saracens bench 2023 Prem final:

16 Theo Dan
17 Mako Vunipola
18 Christian Judge
19 Callum Hunter-Hill
20 Toby Knight
21 Aled Davies
22 Duncan Taylor
23 Elliot Daly

Possibly not the best example Sgt as we know at that point Sarries were cheating the cap.

The reduced salary cap is definitely limiting the squad strength and the number of foreign big names so the league is bound to be a bit weaker. In terms of European competition the Prem was still fairly competitive so we haven't fallen that far.

As I said above Sarge, I think the top end is probably worse off, Saracens had a squad to compete, they were cheating, they publicly wanted the cap to significantly increase (whether so they didn't have to be shady or play to their own set of rules even more I don't know).

Re that last point Sam, I saw someone on the BBC compare the teams in England to that of Ireland and France, we took a walloping from Irish teams across the 2 comps, from memory it was something like won 2 lost 8, very 1 sided anyway, but against French I think they won something like 3 more. (N.B figures there are made up but in the ball park).

The cheating part is irrelevant really....the discussion was if the league is as strong now, which it isn't.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:The cheating part is irrelevant really....the discussion was if the league is as strong now, which it isn't.

Not really, as we're talking about the league being strong as a whole. How best to test that I would say is head to head results, considering home and away etc.

If you're argument is that a league is as strong as it's top team then looking at the make up of Saracens strength in depth I'd agree that the one from 2015 or around then was probably stronger. I just don't think you base a league on it's leaders.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As I said above Sarge, I think the top end is probably worse off, Saracens had a squad to compete, they were cheating, they publicly wanted the cap to significantly increase (whether so they didn't have to be shady or play to their own set of rules even more I don't know).

Re that last point Sam, I saw someone on the BBC compare the teams in England to that of Ireland and France, we took a walloping from Irish teams across the 2 comps, from memory it was something like won 2 lost 8, very 1 sided anyway, but against French I think they won something like 3 more. (N.B figures there are made up but in the ball park).

Yeah fairly miserable results Vs the Irish teams this year. Leinster smashed Glaws home and away, then Tigers in the quarters. Saints failed miserably up front against Saints and Sale slaughtered Ulster in the first game (39-0!) and lost by 11 pts in the second.

Dunno about the French teams where Toulouse and La Rochelle were excellent (though Glaws ran La Rochelle close) but otherwise we generally managed to do pretty well against them as you say.

Points conceded is the simplest way to quantify the divebomb in quality for me.

Saints made the playoffs this season conceding 611 points, an average of over 30 a game.

Sale had the best defence by a distance but still conceded 435 points. Average of 21.75 a game.

Going back before ringfencing the worst defences making the playoffs would be around 23 points conceded on average. Wasps, Saints and Gloucester all around those marks at varying points.

The best sides having defences with an average points conceded of well under 20 isn't unusual at all.

40 plays 50 is entertaining occasionally but when occurring regularly is in indicator of poor fitness and defence rather than quality. There's a reason Baabaas games usually have those score lines after most the squad are on the lash through the Thursday night before the captains run. Add in the increasingly frequent drubbings when sides rotate or simply don't have depth to cover injuries. It's not a strong competition as a whole.

There are still strong sides and good games. The final was an excellent showcase of this between two very physical, well drilled sides with developed forward and backs play.

Those low quality games just aren't conducive with driving players to keep improving as fast as they can. I try not to pick out young players in these conversations but I feel Ewan Richards was a great example last season with Bath. A really talented player but looked lacking in physicality at a young age. Due to Bath's issues he played 15 Prem games though, I honestly felt like he played the same game 15 times without massive improvement. He was there as the last man standing to an extent. With the pressure from relegation I think Bath get a better player in for such a key position. Dare I say a member of the much maligned but IMO now missed 'squad man'. Then players such as Richards have to go away, improve what needs to improve, play again but a bit better, then repeat. Young players getting game time is only useful for their development if that game time is of a high enough quality. We talk about having more England qualified players in the Premiership. I think the focus should be on more England quality players.

I think that before you can assert a decline in quality, you need to look at whether something similar has happened in other leagues. Rugby’s tinkering with the Laws and the interpretation of them swings between favouring attack and favouring defence, and at the moment we’re in a phase where attack is in the ascendancy.

The top 4 in the URC conceded 20-22 points per game, and the spread at the top of the Top 14 was between 18 and 24. In Super Rugby, the top 4 conceded between 19 and 28 points per match.

Saints are a bit of an outlier, but English rugby isn’t wildly out of line with other leagues.

And relegation and promotion are back following covid soon, so that will make coaches abandon the attacking mindset again? I don't think Saracens have any fear on relegation but they made a deliberate choice on change of style this season to great effect. In terms of that more defensive style, I think that's where England have been going wrong, despite Jones always thinking he was playing the long game better the lack of ambition has really hindered us at times, the decision making lacking as the players have been told to seemingly only play in certain areas of the pitch or to a certain breakdown. Borthwick seems to have taken that on. When we're talking about a coach picking certain types of players to suit their tactics I suppose if you are looking for that tighter focus and more teams in the prem are playing looser you will have fewer players to choose in that style though? Perhaps Borthwick has to adapt to the greater quantity of players showing a way to a different style.

I know that the final WC Squad selection will be on 7th August (Rugby World).
But does anyone know when the larger training squads will be announced?
I assumed it would be pretty soon after the Prem Final weekend - and most of the other 6N sides have named theirs.

I assume it has to be this week on the basis that players have to have a 5 week break before the RWC training camps.

Those players who weren't involved in the Prem semis last played on 6 May so will be available from this weekend, with semi-finalists and finalists coming through over the next couple of weeks.

There's also speculation on various sites about who will and won't be in the squads.

Poorfour wrote:I think that before you can assert a decline in quality, you need to look at whether something similar has happened in other leagues. Rugby’s tinkering with the Laws and the interpretation of them swings between favouring attack and favouring defence, and at the moment we’re in a phase where attack is in the ascendancy.

The top 4 in the URC conceded 20-22 points per game, and the spread at the top of the Top 14 was between 18 and 24. In Super Rugby, the top 4 conceded between 19 and 28 points per match.

Saints are a bit of an outlier, but English rugby isn’t wildly out of line with other leagues.

In the same way Saints are an outlier that 28 points per match from Brumbies is too though. Last year Chiefs were the worst defence in the top 4 with an average points per match of 24.8 for instance.

Saints are an outlier this season but in 21/22 Saints again made the playoffs with an average points conceded of 26.6. In 2020/21 Quins had an average points conceded of 25.6.

The Top 14 has that 24 from Lyon as an outlier it's vital to state. The next highest was Stade Francais at 18.4! In 21/22 the highest was table toppers Castres at 20.3, in 2020/21 it was Racing at 22.2. That's incomparably better defence from what I think almost everyone in rugby accepts is the highest performing league in the world now. It's also pumping out incredible talent for France.

The URC is such an odd league to compare to others that I tend not to. At the top you have what is basically the best international side going who then rest for large portions of the season (Sexton hasn't played away in Wales for Leinster since returning from Racing for instance) and even playoffs now. Italy have started building something really good at Treviso with the combination of some funding and their improved U20s being funnelled there. Yet Zebre are really struggling. The Welsh regions are in well documented complete strife. The Scottish sides (former Edinburgh season ticket holder here!) are an odd blend of being fantastic in some areas (Edinburgh's back three) then fairly rubbish in others (often halfbacks in recent years). Then the SA sides have come in as a fresh hand grenade.

I accept the point on laws changing and trends changing but my issue is that I don't think attacking patterns or sides ability to breakdown defences over many phases has improved that much. Perhaps Sarries apart as they've developed this season to be fair. I just think attacking has got easier as fitness, physicality and therefore defence have declined.

Apologies for slow response by the way. I've slipped into cricket fan mode with England's first Test of an Ashes summer last week and the World Test Championship final coming up this week!

No 7&1/2 wrote:And relegation and promotion are back following covid soon, so that will make coaches abandon the attacking mindset again? I don't think Saracens have any fear on relegation but they made a deliberate choice on change of style this season to great effect. In terms of that more defensive style, I think that's where England have been going wrong, despite Jones always thinking he was playing the long game better the lack of ambition has really hindered us at times, the decision making lacking as the players have been told to seemingly only play in certain areas of the pitch or to a certain breakdown. Borthwick seems to have taken that on. When we're talking about a coach picking certain types of players to suit their tactics I suppose if you are looking for that tighter focus and more teams in the prem are playing looser you will have fewer players to choose in that style though? Perhaps Borthwick has to adapt to the greater quantity of players showing a way to a different style.

Rumours are that ringfencing potentially continuing was part of why Wasps struggled to obtain funding to get into the Championship. So I'm not so sure it will end.

As said above to Poorfour I think this has been caused far less by improved attacks or attacking mindsets, rather caused by a decline in defence. If sides can't defend, or simply won't in dead rubbers, then there will of course be more line breaks, offloads, tries scored, etc etc. Whether that translates to a higher standard is a completely different story.

It comes back to the point I've made before about defence being a weak link aspect of the sport. You can have a back row of Warburton, Pocock and McCaw but if the wingers are Vainikolo and Banahan or the props are Tim Payne and Paul Doran-Jones then it's not going to be a strong defence. Attacking against a weaker Premiership side the weakest link might be a Championship prop who's in his first contract or an academy grad that isn't really cutting it yet. Against Ireland it might be Tadhg Furlong? Hence why I think the much maligned squad man is so important for this aspect a domestic league. They raise the standard of those weakest links add a standard that young players have to surpass to get game time.

Tigers locks are a brilliant example of the virtue of squad men. Especially Eli Snyman but to an extent Cal Green and Harry Wells too. Even as a Tigers fan I was surprised when Wells got capped. I wouldn't consider any of those three international standard. Yet by having three good to excellent Premiership locks they had to surpass for game time Tigers now have Chessum, Martin and Henderson performing fantastically for young second rows. Had they been in a position with worse depth or getting game time by virtue of being in the squad I don't think they'd have progressed as they have. Snyman being there at that time, giving them a standard to surpass was really important.

Guess there's no hope for us then. Unless Borthwick is allowed to pick players abroad in France.

I'd definitely like some England squad related news to lift the gloom and focus off the prem clubs now please.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd definitely like some England squad related news to lift the gloom and focus off the prem clubs now please.

This. Let's get excited about the World Cup and whether a surprise can be sprung. And we can debate the rights or wrongs of the selections.

I would love to start getting excited about the WC. Just need them to name the squad so I can properly get into it.

I usually quite enjoy this fallow period for rugby in RWC years. The initial training squads are interesting to debate briefly but generally so big that outside of a few selections we don't learn that much. Then things settle down, unless there's injuries, until the warmups when things get really fun as generally you can then start to see patterns in the selection and tactics.

The Prem being in such a mire is depressing as an English rugby fan though. I popped over to the rugbynetwork LI site yesterday to offer commiserations to some LI fans I've posted with for years and it's genuinely gut wrenching seeing posts in the 'memories' thread.

Getting the squad to discuss would be a welcome distraction. Being a huge cricket fan I tend to shift my focus there after the Prem season ends so don't focus on rugby as much just now but even so it would be nice to get something else to think about on the rugby side of things.

Even some of my fears for the rugby squad are lower level dislikes than picking Moeen but I only have a passing interest so I'm sure there's some logic somewhere.

May well be possible for Borthwick to pull the squad a little closer together over these messes if he plays it right. I hope they've got some kind of counsellor on board in general though just to help players who may well be getting quite anxious etc over this.

I could do with some positive rugby news to tide me over to the Tour de France starts in a couple of weeks. Can't say the cricket really holds any interest. With no game until the 5th August I suppose Borthwick has some time as that is only a warm up game. If a major problem was fitness though then we need to get them into the tender care of Aled sooner rather than later.

So you not watching Dauphine then? Some great racing going on.

Quite easy to get frustrated at the RFU and PRL messing around and dragging feet when you see the RFU leading the way so well with the women. 32 contracts announced today, 6 transition contracts for those moving to professional safeguarding them in case something goes wrong. Mat pay brought in already.

Excellent news for Red Roses and deservedly so. A consistently excellent and successful England team. Not often get to write that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Quite easy to get frustrated at the RFU and PRL messing around and dragging feet when you see the RFU leading the way so well with the women. 32 contracts announced today, 6 transition contracts for those moving to professional safeguarding them in case something goes wrong. Mat pay brought in already.

It's actually 34 contracts, because the 2 on Mat leave are still on full contracts that weren't counted in the 32.

It's definite progress - though we should remember that the women are still paid far less than the men and most of the Premier 15 players are at best semi-pro. But we can hope that it will accelerate!

mountain man wrote:So you not watching Dauphine then? Some great racing going on.

I've caught a few of the stages but it's been a busy week at work. Impressive TT from Berg the other day. Felt like Vinegaard would take it when he was ready though. I'm hoping for something close at the Tour.

Vingegaard looked like he got strategy wrong in TT, went out too fast and looked like he struggled towards end instead of going for negative split. However, looked fantastic to take stage next day. Yellow his to lose now.

TdF always pinnacle and I can't wait for Pogacar v Vingegaard again as barring something unforeseen it's has to be between those two again.
And the best all round cyclist be riding for Jumbo - Wout Van Aert. He is incredible.

mountain man wrote:Vingegaard looked like he got strategy wrong in TT, went out too fast and looked like he struggled towards end instead of going for negative split. However, looked fantastic to take stage next day. Yellow his to lose now.

TdF always pinnacle and I can't wait for Pogacar v Vingegaard again as barring something unforeseen it's has to be between those two again.
And the best all round cyclist be riding for Jumbo - Wout Van Aert. He is incredible.

Wasn't the perfect TT but he did enough to better his GC rivals. Dominant when he needed it. Pogacar and a stronger UAE team will be the main competition. Hopefully Wout is the second protected rider at Jumbo so we can see him race and not be on babysitting duty when stage wins are there for him to take. Not sure he's got the mountain legs but he's also not had the chances.

Van Der Poel will be interesting to watch, possibly dueling with Pidcock on for stage wins. Shame Evenpoel is skipping it.

The entire focus for Jumbo Visma will be the GC so as long as Vingegaard in contention then Van Aert and rest of team will ride for him. If a stage win can be taken without compromising team goal then it will be but ultimately it'll be about getting Vingegaard in yellow for Paris.

I don't think you can have the resources that Jumbo do and then have all your eggs in one basket. They didn't last year and whilst Vingegaard will be the obvious number 1 there'll be a number 2. Gives more tactical options as well have two riders, particularly one as attacking as Wout. Vingegaard can sit there will the bulk of the team looking at the competition and saying "up to you to chase" and then coat tail off their hard work until he's ready to attack when it gets steep.

Womens rugby and cycling.....this thread has went to the dog.

Well if your objection is it's taken thread completely off topic then fair enough, guilty as charged.

But if it's because you think both are rubbish then that's way off the mark. England women are a superb team and deserve every accolade and enhanced contracts.
Pro cycling, especially the top end elite is something special if you know what they are capable of. As a keen cyclist myself I am always stunned by what those guys(and girls) can do.

Anyway, I'll leave it at that and stick to designated cycling thread from now on.

Mate, I'm sure Sarge was just making a joke about the thread going off-topic, nothing more.

I am wondering when the first England training squad is named. I think the final squad is supposed to be finalised on August 7, but not the wider group.

Jeez....that one went down like a lead balloon!

It was a tongue in cheek comment mm, at least Doc got it.

A training squad is apparently being named tomorrow

BamBam wrote:A training squad is apparently being named tomorrow

No semi finalists will be in it. Its supposed to be about 30 people. Mercer and Care are in at present.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:A training squad is apparently being named tomorrow

No semi finalists will be in it. Its supposed to be about 30 people. Mercer and Care are in at present.

Not a bad idea to give all the Prem players a few weeks off to recharge and spend with their families. This way Borthwick has a good excuse to take a look at a few players as well.

Think it extends to the French too.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jeez....that one went down like a lead balloon!

It was a tongue in cheek comment mm, at least Doc got it.

Easy tiger, I fully understood that. I was just giving my perspective of cycling and Red Roses

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:A training squad is apparently being named tomorrow

No semi finalists will be in it. Its supposed to be about 30 people. Mercer and Care are in at present.

Tomorrow?  Good - something to complain about.....

Mercer and Care, eh?  I guess Mercer has a decent shot, but what do you think about Care?  He has the advantage of potentially being the only real seasoned head amongst the 9s. But...

mountain man wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Jeez....that one went down like a lead balloon!

It was a tongue in cheek comment mm, at least Doc got it.

Easy tiger, I fully understood that. I was just giving my perspective of cycling and Red Roses

I look forward to your future thoughts on quantum mechanics and juggling

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

BamBam wrote:A training squad is apparently being named tomorrow

No semi finalists will be in it. Its supposed to be about 30 people. Mercer and Care are in at present.

Tomorrow?  Good - something to complain about.....

Mercer and Care, eh?  I guess Mercer has a decent shot, but what do you think about Care?  He has the advantage of potentially being the only real seasoned head amongst the 9s.  But...

Well without the ability to pick vP, youngs, quirke, warr or Mitchell I think its sensible. Just thinking on what happened at the last world cup a good view as to how quickly he gets up to speed as well. I think Spencer will surely get a call too.

Can't juggle and physics was never my thing but I'm good on sport and music...

https://twitter.com/englandrugby/status/1668166247421300736?s=12

Forwards
Jamie Blamire
Alex Dombrandt
Tom Dunn
Charlie Ewels
Ellis Genge
Ted Hill (Bath Rugby)
Joe Marler
Zach Mercer (Montpellier Hérault Rugby)
Beno Obano (Bath Rugby)
Tom Pearson (London Irish)
Val Rapava-Ruskin (Gloucester Rugby)
Kyle Sinckler
Will Stuart
Sam Underhill
Jack Walker (Harlequins)

Backs
Henry Arundell
Danny Care
Joe Cokanasiga (Bath Rugby)
Ollie Hassell-Collins
Will Joseph (London Irish)
Ollie Lawrence
Joe Marchant
Jonny May
Cadan Murley (Harlequins)
Harry Randall
Henry Slade
Marcus Smith
Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby)

Is that preliminary squad? Doesn't include finalists obviously and really actual squad be a lot different.
Some eye catching names though which is promising, likes of VRR, Pearson, Ewels (no wait, not him).

Well if thats the preliminary....just for starters thats pretty good going.

Lots of talented young lads in there.

6 Ted Hill
7 Underhill / Pearson
8 Mercer

That would be fun to watch and cause teams some problems.