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England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Tue Mar 21, 2023 9:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

Continued......

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Post by Geordie Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:07 am

I like Tom Willis...should develop nicely at Saracens...

I'll see if there are any other stats.

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Post by Rugby Fan Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:02 am

Telegraph has a first day summary of the camp, highlighting the roles of some of the new coaches.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-camp-what-we-learned/

England’s base camp began on a Monday morning in Bagshot, under the sort of sunshine that makes one want to lie down. Steve Borthwick does not have that luxury. As he has stressed on numerous occasions, England are playing catch-up. And his World Cup started here.

This period, akin to a club pre-season and crucial for international sides because of its rarity, presents him with an opportunity to immerse himself in coaching and strategy; two big passions. It is also the first time that his backroom team, bolstered by three more lieutenants recruited from Leicester Tigers, has assembled. The ebullient Aled Walters, a reigning World Cup champion from his time with the Springboks, was particularly prominent. Richard Wigglesworth, Tom Harrison and Tony Roques were also among more familiar faces such as Kevin Sinfield, Richard Hill and Tom Tombleson.

Two more figures have been seconded to the set-up. Jonas Dodoo, a specialist sprint coach who works with players including Anthony Watson and Joe Cokanasiga individually, is back with England this summer on a consultancy basis. He visited camps during the Eddie Jones era and oversaw the backs’ warm-up before Monday’s session. In Henry Arundell, Will Joseph, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Jonny May, Cadan Murley and Cokanasiga, Dodoo has some explosive athletes to mentor straightaway.

Joe Gray, the former Northampton, Harlequins and Saracens hooker who won a single cap for England against New Zealand nine years ago, will be around until the World Cup to help with line-out throwing. Renowned for set-piece solidity in his playing days, the 34-year-old has worked his way up the coaching ranks. Previously at Wimbledon and then Barnes in the National Leagues, he became London Scottish head coach prior to the 2022-23 Championship season.

Walters took charge of the forwards for the first part of the session. Borthwick has been effusive about the Welshman for years, continually labelling him as another rugby coach rather than merely a fitness guru. Sure enough, Walters put the heavies through handling drills as well as exercises to hone support play and footwork. Charisma, man management and good humour are regarded as three of his chief strengths, and it was clear that new relationships are being forged. Jamie Blamire, Jack Walker and Kyle Sinckler, none of them Tigers, were the recipients of enthusiastic praise for their side-stepping. Less than a month since Leicester lost in the Premiership semi-final, Walters has learned names and is already motivating a new group. This will be vital for the really tough stuff.

Rest protocols mean that Borthwick has not yet been able to include individuals from the four teams to have reached the Premiership semi-finalists: Saracens, Sale Sharks, Northampton Saints and Leicester. Jack Willis, surely bound for the final squad of 33 that will be announced on Aug 7, still has one more game left in the current season, having helped Toulouse to a mouth-watering Top 14 final against La Rochelle.

Those circumstances render the next few weeks as something of a soft launch, not that the intensity will be any less for those aiming to impress. Anyway, a glimpse of Monday’s on-pitch session at Pennyhill Park provided intriguing clues as to the upcoming months of pain-staking preparation.

Joe Marler was scheduled to arrive later on Monday. The rest of the 28-man squad took the field. Val Rapava-Ruskin was the first out from the changing rooms. Tom Pearson’s height makes him an imposing figure close up. Another former London Irish man, Will Joseph, appeared in good condition despite a season beset by injuries. Sam Underhill looked buoyant, with a current Bath colleague in Ted Hill and a former back-row buddy in Zach Mercer for company. Harry Randall, Ben Spencer and Danny Care are the first set of scrum-halves to collaborate with Wigglesworth.

Another player, Luke Cowan-Dickie, gave cause for supporters of England – and, indeed, of Sale Sharks – to be cheerful. Alongside Billy Vunipola and Ollie Chessum, neither of whom came on to the pitch on Monday, the hooker was one of three injured players said to be attending the camp “to continue their rehabilitation from injury”. Cowan-Dickie took part in most of Walters’ drills, running freely. At one stage, he accidentally flipped over a weighted sled to widespread laughter. Grinning himself, he explained it as over-enthusiasm. Who could blame him? Without a game since January, Cowan-Dickie must feel like a coiled spring. Should he continue to progress, though, England’s depth chart at hooker will seem far stronger.

Sept 9, and a meeting with Argentina in Marseille, represents the beginning of Borthwick’s World Cup campaign. Time is ticking, but you sensed he was in his element as the final countdown kicked off.

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Post by king_carlos Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:40 am

Interesting to see the Torygraph linking LCD to Sale like that in writing. They're usually well informed on rugby matters and Morgan is a good writer. I just hope LCD manages to keep playing. He'd add a huge amount if he can get fit given England were so lacking in physicality in the Six Nations.

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Post by yappysnap Tue Jun 13, 2023 2:47 pm

Most interesting part of that article was the progression of Joe Grey, a very smart cooky who might get a Prem gig in the future.

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Post by Geordie Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:45 pm

Rumours Jack Willis will definitely be joining shortly, as will Launchbury

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2023 5:56 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph has a first day summary of the camp, highlighting the roles of some of the new coaches.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-camp-what-we-learned/

England’s base camp began on a Monday morning in Bagshot, under the sort of sunshine that makes one want to lie down. Steve Borthwick does not have that luxury. As he has stressed on numerous occasions, England are playing catch-up. And his World Cup started here.

This period, akin to a club pre-season and crucial for international sides because of its rarity, presents him with an opportunity to immerse himself in coaching and strategy; two big passions. It is also the first time that his backroom team, bolstered by three more lieutenants recruited from Leicester Tigers, has assembled. The ebullient Aled Walters, a reigning World Cup champion from his time with the Springboks, was particularly prominent. Richard Wigglesworth, Tom Harrison and Tony Roques were also among more familiar faces such as Kevin Sinfield, Richard Hill and Tom Tombleson.

Two more figures have been seconded to the set-up. Jonas Dodoo, a specialist sprint coach who works with players including Anthony Watson and Joe Cokanasiga individually, is back with England this summer on a consultancy basis. He visited camps during the Eddie Jones era and oversaw the backs’ warm-up before Monday’s session. In Henry Arundell, Will Joseph, Ollie Hassell-Collins, Jonny May, Cadan Murley and Cokanasiga, Dodoo has some explosive athletes to mentor straightaway.

Joe Gray, the former Northampton, Harlequins and Saracens hooker who won a single cap for England against New Zealand nine years ago, will be around until the World Cup to help with line-out throwing. Renowned for set-piece solidity in his playing days, the 34-year-old has worked his way up the coaching ranks. Previously at Wimbledon and then Barnes in the National Leagues, he became London Scottish head coach prior to the 2022-23 Championship season.

Walters took charge of the forwards for the first part of the session. Borthwick has been effusive about the Welshman for years, continually labelling him as another rugby coach rather than merely a fitness guru. Sure enough, Walters put the heavies through handling drills as well as exercises to hone support play and footwork. Charisma, man management and good humour are regarded as three of his chief strengths, and it was clear that new relationships are being forged. Jamie Blamire, Jack Walker and Kyle Sinckler, none of them Tigers, were the recipients of enthusiastic praise for their side-stepping. Less than a month since Leicester lost in the Premiership semi-final, Walters has learned names and is already motivating a new group. This will be vital for the really tough stuff.

Rest protocols mean that Borthwick has not yet been able to include individuals from the four teams to have reached the Premiership semi-finalists: Saracens, Sale Sharks, Northampton Saints and Leicester. Jack Willis, surely bound for the final squad of 33 that will be announced on Aug 7, still has one more game left in the current season, having helped Toulouse to a mouth-watering Top 14 final against La Rochelle.

Those circumstances render the next few weeks as something of a soft launch, not that the intensity will be any less for those aiming to impress. Anyway, a glimpse of Monday’s on-pitch session at Pennyhill Park provided intriguing clues as to the upcoming months of pain-staking preparation.

Joe Marler was scheduled to arrive later on Monday. The rest of the 28-man squad took the field. Val Rapava-Ruskin was the first out from the changing rooms. Tom Pearson’s height makes him an imposing figure close up. Another former London Irish man, Will Joseph, appeared in good condition despite a season beset by injuries. Sam Underhill looked buoyant, with a current Bath colleague in Ted Hill and a former back-row buddy in Zach Mercer for company. Harry Randall, Ben Spencer and Danny Care are the first set of scrum-halves to collaborate with Wigglesworth.

Another player, Luke Cowan-Dickie, gave cause for supporters of England – and, indeed, of Sale Sharks – to be cheerful. Alongside Billy Vunipola and Ollie Chessum, neither of whom came on to the pitch on Monday, the hooker was one of three injured players said to be attending the camp “to continue their rehabilitation from injury”. Cowan-Dickie took part in most of Walters’ drills, running freely. At one stage, he accidentally flipped over a weighted sled to widespread laughter. Grinning himself, he explained it as over-enthusiasm. Who could blame him? Without a game since January, Cowan-Dickie must feel like a coiled spring. Should he continue to progress, though, England’s depth chart at hooker will seem far stronger.

Sept 9, and a meeting with Argentina in Marseille, represents the beginning of Borthwick’s World Cup campaign. Time is ticking, but you sensed he was in his element as the final countdown kicked off.

It's hard not to be impressed and excited for what's round the corner when you hear that Walters in a mere month has learned names.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:09 pm

Always love a look at the stats above. I do find it extremely difficult for them alone to sway me. They do have a habit of lying. Is anyone for instance now swayed and going from thinking Hill should be in or around the team to thinking that Earl is hard done to?

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Post by Geordie Tue Jun 13, 2023 6:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Always love a look at the stats above. I do find it extremely difficult for them alone to sway me. They do have a habit of lying. Is anyone for instance now swayed and going from thinking Hill should be in or around the team to thinking that Earl is hard done to?

Thats the thing...Stats dont tell the whole story. But they do tell alot. I am quite surprised by some of them. But Earl is playing in a dominant team as a flying 7. Many on hear have called for him to be in to be fair. Top player.

Hills stats might be because hes being asked to play a certain way...or in an underwhelming bath side. I guess Borthwick will get a good look at him now and if hes not picked it will certainly tell a story.

Pearson was second top of the tackle stats with 240 aswell behind Alex Moon with 247. Interestingly Fraser Dingwall had 203 tackles to his name...pretty good going.

Id love to see what Chessum and George Martins stats were in all these.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:26 pm

Has me thinking that I'd like to have a go at picking 3 sides based on caps vs form vs stats. Vs what I'd pick. If i get bored enough.

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Post by Geordie Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:32 pm

Do it 7.5!

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Post by doctor_grey Tue Jun 13, 2023 7:59 pm

Geordie wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Always love a look at the stats above. I do find it extremely difficult for them alone to sway me. They do have a habit of lying. Is anyone for instance now swayed and going from thinking Hill should be in or around the team to thinking that Earl is hard done to?

Thats the thing...Stats dont tell the whole story. But they do tell alot. I am quite surprised by some of them. But Earl is playing in a dominant team as a flying 7. Many on hear have called for him to be in to be fair. Top player.

Hills stats might be because hes being asked to play a certain way...or in an underwhelming bath side. I guess Borthwick will get a good look at him now and if hes not picked it will certainly tell a story.

Pearson was second top of the tackle stats with 240 aswell behind Alex Moon with 247. Interestingly Fraser Dingwall had 203 tackles to his name...pretty good going.

Id love to see what Chessum and George Martins stats were in all these.  
Dinger had a lot of tackles because Saints were probably on defense more than most other Premiership teams....

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Post by mountain man Tue Jun 13, 2023 9:53 pm

It's hard not to be impressed and excited for what's round the corner when you hear that Walters in a mere month has learned names.

Very Happy

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2023 10:58 pm

Experienced team, going by those who stand a realistic chance of selection, I've heard that Vickery is carrying a thigh niggle for instance which possibly rules him out of the WC.

Vunipola George Cole
Itoje Launchbury
Lawes T Curry
Vunipola
Youngs Ford
May Farrell Joseph Watson

Form, subjective obviously. I'm not considering the French based guys as I don't see it though both Willis' and Mercer are getting great write ups.

Rapava-Ruskin Dan Sinckler
Martin Hill (yes for his club!)
Hill Earl
Simmonds
Spender Farrell
Murley Lawrence (artistic licence as he's played more 13, so Tuilagi if people moan) Dingwall Malins
Carpenter

My current choice
Genge George Sinckler
Itoje Martin (Chessum if he's fit, maybe Lawes)
T Curry Willis
Dombrandt (maybe Mercer, really liked the look of his fleeting appearances for England)

Mitchell Smith
H-C Kelly Lawrence Radwan
Steward

The stats one is too hard for such a hot day.

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Post by Geordie Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:29 pm

Are you bringing Jon Webb out for the experienced team full back?

Interesting teams 7.5...be interesting to see who would come out on top...

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Post by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:31 pm

Geordie wrote:Are you bringing Jon Webb out for the experienced team full back?

Interesting teams 7.5...be interesting to see who would come out on top...

lol. Easy. The one I picked!

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Post by Geordie Tue Jun 13, 2023 11:43 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Geordie wrote:Are you bringing Jon Webb out for the experienced team full back?

Interesting teams 7.5...be interesting to see who would come out on top...

lol. Easy. The one I picked!

laughing

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:17 am

Well the experienced side only has 14 players so they are at a disadvantage.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:21 am

Well done Sam, you get the ice lolly in the post for spotting that. Would be Daly I think?

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:42 am

Geordie wrote:Rumours Jack Willis will definitely be joining shortly, as will Launchbury
Launchbury was name checked as not being picked due to injury so was clearly under consideration. He also wasn't named as someone rehabbing with this squad though. Which may be something to do with just getting back to the UK, being given a chance to spend time with family.

I've said the same many times but it has been a long while since we saw Launchbury's best. Sadly, as he was one of my favourite players at his peak. I just fear he's slowed down with the injuries. The fantastic defensive maul work is still there but the offloading, support lines and ruck work seemed to have declined. Given he's a lock who doesn't jump well in the lineout he needs those points of difference to stand out.

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Post by Geordie Wed Jun 14, 2023 12:48 am

Only going on the rumours KC.

Like you i wouldnt select him now. Id plump for the younger lads...Martin, Chessum (when fit) etc. Surround them with experience if need be in the front row and back row.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 1:01 am

Genge apparently had severe tonsillitis leading up to the Wales game this year, loads of diclofenac and was really ill after the match. I have to ask as Borthwick is using fitness as an excuse for results why he was asking someone seemingly that ill to play?

Decent write up in the torygraph too, sound like him and Aspland-Robinson have more business sense that the majority of the PRL owners.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:35 am

Alex Spink in The Mirror wrote:Steve Borthwick has admitted England were unfit for the purpose of competing for Six Nations glory.

They avoided annihilation at the Aviva, a notable improvement on France the week before, pushing the world’s top side hard for an hour. But England still finished with a losing record for the third straight championship - a hat-trick of humiliation for rugby’s best resourced nation.

The head coach made no attempt to sugarcoat the facts, running a mile from blaming defeat on Freddie Steward’s contentious first half red card. Instead, he pointed to fitness levels, leaving the players in no doubt he expects a marked improvement before they reassemble to prepare for the World Cup.

“We have to make sure we get the condition of the players right,” he said. “We don’t want to spend the World Cup camp trying to get fit. We want to use it to get better.”

Borthwick could have dwelt on improvement in attitude, commitment, energy and desire against opposition worthy of their Grand Slam, only he rightly considers these to be non-negotiables.

He preferred to drill into what he sees as one of the fundamental reasons England now lags so far behind the best in the business. “The conditioning of the players has improved through the tournament," he said, rather damning with faint praise. “If you reflect on the last 20 minutes of the Scotland game, which was the first we played, you saw the drop off which is where Scotland beat us. “Then you look at the conditioning of the team against what we know is a very fit and athletic Ireland team and, playing with numbers down for a considerable period of time, I think everyone could see the difference.”

The fault line in English rugby is well known. The clubs hold the player contracts, each are individual businesses with a style of play tailored to suit them rather than England.

“Once the players leave here and return to their clubs, we have no control over them,” Borthwick said. “We will have conversations with them and their clubs to say what we would like, but ultimately we don’t have any control over that.”

This is the continued legacy of the RFU falling asleep at the wheel when the game turned professional. Had they not, England might now have the player control Ireland so benefit from.

Borthwick dreams of a system that enables both club and international game to thrive but is not holding his breath. “That is what we all want,” he said. “A really competitive, vibrant Premiership that produces the best possible players in a condition ready to be able to compete at the top of Test rugby.

“What we don’t want is multiple Six Nations with only a couple of wins.”

The Cumbrian has never had it easy with England, but the 2007 World Cup showed him that hard work over a short period can pay off. “That 36-0 game crossed my mind this week,” he said, referring to England’s pool trouncing by South Africa a month before they met again in the Final. “We had to deal with that and make plans, moving forward, about what we were going to do. The team learned fast then, it's learning fast now.”

7.5

The insinuation that fitness was used as an excuse rather than just an honest response when summing up England's performance is getting so boring that I decided to dig back through reporting on that press conference to see if anyone else felt it was a coach making excuses. Above is Alex Spinks take.

Chris Foy's take in the Heil is similar to the above but also highlighting that Borthwick accepted the attack needed to improve and England needed to "learn quicker than other teams". So not in any way writing as if it was a coach making an excuse.

Gavin Mairs in the Torygraph ran with "It is unacceptable for Steve Borthwick to be presented with unfit England players".

When you actually take Borthwick's comments as a whole they are simply part of a candid reflection of a mixed to poor tournament. When Jones failed to offer honesty in his comments you often complained. When Borthwick does offer honesty, you complain about it.

To take a press conference in which I think Borthwick actually speaks well about the tournament as a whole and English rugby's issues, take one element that fits with your view, remove the context of it, then endlessly force this mythical 'excuse' into discussion months down the line is frankly lazy and tedious.

As a whole the reaction from the vast majority of pundits, writers and fans I've seen to those remarks about fitness are concern that the Premiership is no longer doing its job in preparing players for the step up to international rugby. I've seen almost no one else who feels that the squad did look fit enough or that pointing out the obvious is in anyway an excuse.

If it is then coaches basically can't give interviews after bad performances. If they lose because of missing tackles and a coach mentions the missed tackles, he's just making an excuse. If it's unforced errors, just making an excuse by mentioning the unforced errors. Dire lineout, can't mention the lineout going to pot because it's an excuse.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:44 am

Oh it is an excuse. Or he knew it was issue and his subs were extremely badly implemented. Or both. I'm not hiding my views that I think they've all started badly.

I'm not surprised that there's a list of journalists more than ready to give him the benefit of the doubt as the majority wanted him in.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:47 am

No excuses for the world cup. He has his a team now. He's got the best run of games you could possibly want. I reckon we may get to the semis. Or we could be going out in the groups. I think though that it wont be entertaining.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:47 am

yappysnap wrote:Most interesting part of that article was the progression of Joe Grey, a very smart cooky who might get a Prem gig in the future.
Especially interesting that it's for as specialised a job as "helping with lineout throwing". Which seems to clearly suggest that the coaches might have concerns there about the hookers challenging George and LCD.

I really rate Blamire but it's an area he clearly needs to improve.

Perhaps it was why Walker was used so little during the Six Nations.

McGuigan was originally in the squads before injury but now misses out here despite being fit at the end of the season. He also isn't listed with the players rehabbing in camp. McGuigan's darts are usually good (likely why he was starting at Falcons ahead of Blamire and Gloucester picked him up despite having Singleton) but he does lack physicality for an international front row. It makes me wonder whether they're going to prioritise slightly more physical hookers but try to bring their skills up whilst in camp.

George will definitely come into the squads of course. Theo Dan might have an outside shot. I'd love Curtis Langdon to get looked at but he might need to show form with Saints before pressing his case. Dolly was in the Baabaas game so presumably isn't being considered going by rumours.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:50 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh it is an excuse. Or he knew it was issue and his subs were extremely badly implemented. Or both. I'm not hiding my views that I think they've all started badly.

I'm not surprised that there's a list of journalists more than ready to give him the benefit of the doubt as the majority wanted him in.
Ah well, I tried. You're basically on you own in that view from what I've seen of pundits, commentators, podcasters and fans views of it. General views seem to be it was just a candid and justified response given almost everyone else seems in agreement that the side clearly weren't fit.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 2:54 am

king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh it is an excuse. Or he knew it was issue and his subs were extremely badly implemented. Or both. I'm not hiding my views that I think they've all started badly.

I'm not surprised that there's a list of journalists more than ready to give him the benefit of the doubt as the majority wanted him in.
Ah well, I tried. You're basically on you own in that view from what I've seen of pundits, commentators, podcasters and fans views of it. General views seem to be it was just a candid and justified response given almost everyone else seems in agreement that the side clearly weren't fit.

Yeah not going to change my view on that. He was so concerned he was flogging players like George all game offering no time or trust to guys like walker. And to an extent vP. I'm happy he wants to throw it out there, just don't think it bodes well. 1 tough WC and those journalists will all have their knives out and if he offers reasons like he did it won't go down well. Hope I'm wrong and we have a good time under him but I don't think he was the right choice and I'm not going to pretend I think its going well.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:14 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh it is an excuse. Or he knew it was issue and his subs were extremely badly implemented. Or both. I'm not hiding my views that I think they've all started badly.

I'm not surprised that there's a list of journalists more than ready to give him the benefit of the doubt as the majority wanted him in.
Ah well, I tried. You're basically on you own in that view from what I've seen of pundits, commentators, podcasters and fans views of it. General views seem to be it was just a candid and justified response given almost everyone else seems in agreement that the side clearly weren't fit.

Yeah not going to change my view on that. He was so concerned he was flogging players like George all game offering no time or trust to guys like walker. And to an extent vP. I'm happy he wants to throw it out there, just don't think it bodes well. 1 tough WC and those journalists will all have their knives out and if he offers reasons like he did it won't go down well. Hope I'm wrong and we have a good time under him but I don't think he was the right choice and I'm not going to pretend I think its going well.
Oh, we are all aware that the only coach you wanted was Robertson despite it being abundantly clear that he was waiting for the ABs job so never will have been an actual candidate. We are also all aware that your frustration over Razor not being hired for a job he didn't want is leading to some tiresomely repeated tropes. Such as this strange obsession with a coach holding the view that international rugby players need to be fit being an excuse.

After a full RWC camp and warmups raising fitness would be on the incumbent setup, so yeah it wouldn't go down well. Raising it when you have almost no build up into a Six Nations with a squad that clearly isn't being prepared by a declining Premiership isn't on them though. Given the squad were blatantly unfit it's also a perfectly reasonable thing to raise. Finally, it was raised amongst several other aspects that needed improving too. Such as the attack needing to improve. Hence not a coach raising fitness as a excuse and not reported on in that way by the media or interpreted that way by fans.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:30 am

I'm massively disappointed we didn't even approach anyone else than Borthwick yes. Doesn't seem a very thorough process. Robertson and McCall were the guys to get but perhaps it is the case that we had to settle.

And fair enough point on the lack of lead up to the 6 nations. You're probably right that the prem lacks fitness etc which is why not playing the guys in France more and letting your hooker and scrum half knacker themselves were arrange decisions! It's all the past now though. Borthwick is first and only choice and he had his team. I'm sure we won't have any reasons for failure; onwards and upwards.

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Post by mountain man Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:36 am

Was it confirmed that only Borthwick was approached? I know a few ruled themselves out beforehand. I'd have liked O'Gara in but he was one who stated he wasn't interested at this time.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:40 am

From the interview with the Leicester woman whose name is escaping me....


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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:42 am

Pinchen.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:44 am

O'Garas results are great. His teams entertain. Not sure given his disciplinary standards as coach that he's going to feature very highly on the rfus list.

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Post by mountain man Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:52 am

Maybe not but then again Jones said some things that arguably should have had him sanctioned but RFU choose not to as he was their man.

I'm looking purely at the rugby side with O'Gara.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:57 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:
king_carlos wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Oh it is an excuse. Or he knew it was issue and his subs were extremely badly implemented. Or both. I'm not hiding my views that I think they've all started badly.

I'm not surprised that there's a list of journalists more than ready to give him the benefit of the doubt as the majority wanted him in.
Ah well, I tried. You're basically on you own in that view from what I've seen of pundits, commentators, podcasters and fans views of it. General views seem to be it was just a candid and justified response given almost everyone else seems in agreement that the side clearly weren't fit.

Yeah not going to change my view on that. He was so concerned he was flogging players like George all game offering no time or trust to guys like walker. And to an extent vP. I'm happy he wants to throw it out there, just don't think it bodes well. 1 tough WC and those journalists will all have their knives out and if he offers reasons like he did it won't go down well. Hope I'm wrong and we have a good time under him but I don't think he was the right choice and I'm not going to pretend I think its going well.

Perhaps he didn't trust those on the bench. Walker has no caps previously and wasn't the preferred back up with LCD, McGuigan and Dolly all injured. JvP was backed up by Youngs, who whilst vilified even when he does something right, is past his best and Mitchell who Eddie didn't trust either and who seems as likely to set up a try as concede one at international level (not far off the same at club level).

As for Genge, the back up loosehead was Mako. Can understand why Borthwick was desperate for him to be on the pitch as a leader and player. At that point I think VRR was injured and politics probably dictated that Marler couldn't be picked so soon from acting the idiot (again).

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 4:06 am

True enough to an extent. He'd have definitely turned to the bench earlier had LCD been there I reckon but then don't complain on lack of fitness. And true for youngs his introduction was calamitous. And again re vunipola don't blame fitness if it's your own judgement and picks you don't trust.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:02 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:True enough to an extent. He'd have definitely turned to the bench earlier had LCD been there I reckon but then don't complain on lack of fitness. And true for youngs his introduction was calamitous. And again re vunipola don't blame fitness if it's your own judgement and picks you don't trust.
The overriding point, that most pundits and fans seem in agreement on, is that due to the Prems drop in standards the vast majority aren't properly prepared though. Hence the point about fitness was very likely to be made with VRR as the replacement LH, Radwan on the wing, Mitchell the starting 9, etc etc. The player pool as a whole are playing week to week at a standard that is way too far below the level needed to prepare players for the step up. Therefore they are learning on the job at international level. Hence fitness standards across many players need to improve.

Ignoring that context and taking one comment from a press conference in which many other issues were raised, then branding that one out of context point, which in context is blatantly true, is just wilfully facile.

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Post by king_carlos Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:11 am

mountain man wrote:Was it confirmed that only Borthwick was approached? I know a few ruled themselves out beforehand. I'd have liked O'Gara in but he was one who stated he wasn't interested at this time.
Not to my knowledge. I remember an interview with Pinchen where she discussed Tigers approaching the RFU themselves after the Prem win last season where Bill Sweeney's negotiation skills were also referenced but I can't remember Borthwick being confirmed as the only coach approached.

From what I've heard Tigers approached the RFU to enquire as to whether Borthwick might be wanted by England after the RWC. The RFU were rumoured to have already been in contact with a few coaches informally at this point. Jones was eager for Borthwick to come back onboard for the RWC as an assistant. So the best laid plan was for Borthwick to re-join this summer under Jones, EJ would head into the RWC with one of his most trusted lieutenants back in post. Then if the tournament went well it could provide a bridging between regimes with an obvious successor.

ROG is a brilliant young coach. What he's done with La Rochelle is impressive even given the budget. They play great rugby. He clearly fancies the Ireland job after Faz Snr though and has actually confirmed as much now.

McCall would've been my choice from the Prem coaches but given the break for stress related reasons he may not fancy it. Sarries, for their prolonged flack about the cap, have a brilliant coaching setup that keeps churning out great young coaches under McCall. He's clearly settled there.

Baxter seems in a similar boat to McCall where he may just not fancy the pantomime.

Robertson was clearly wanting the ABs job.

Rassie...  Whistle

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 3:21 pm

You see it as fact king, I don't. But going back to the point of Borthwick's; if he does believe this fitness thing....why is he flogging players who were tiring? Why is convincing Genge to play when clearly struggling with illness a good idea?

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Jun 14, 2023 5:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You see it as fact king, I don't. But going back to the point of Borthwick's; if he does believe this fitness thing....why is he flogging players who were tiring? Why is convincing Genge to play when clearly struggling with illness a good idea?

Because the alternative was starting Mako against the French (I think you said) with Rodd on the bench. Scrum would have been sent rapidly in reverse.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 6:01 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You see it as fact king, I don't. But going back to the point of Borthwick's; if he does believe this fitness thing....why is he flogging players who were tiring? Why is convincing Genge to play when clearly struggling with illness a good idea?

Because the alternative was starting Mako against the French (I think you said) with Rodd on the bench. Scrum would have been sent rapidly in reverse.

Think it was Wales but yeah for me Vunipola is rapidly going backwards and concerns over his form are very valid. I don't even think he stands out in the loose compared to others. But doesn't that in itself say we need to build a bit of depth in some positions? If you're right and you very well could be the coaches are saying, we realise you're not fit enough Ellis, but even with that and the fact you're quite ill we have to start you as we don't think any of the others are good enough. We weren't really playing for anything other than development at that point following the Scotland defeat. So fitness is a big thing but was it being mitigated or managed adequately? Put that aside playing that pressure on players to play when ill, not sure that's entirely great for longer term morale etc. I know that players rarely if ever play at 100% condition but still.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:30 pm

I'm sure the conversation was with Ellis and along the lines of "are you going to be ok to play?" And Ellis said "yes". Just like Marler who hadn't recovered from COVID adequately Vs SA. The player wanted to play and the team needed them. Morale wise it was probably a lift seeing a leader refuse to use the excuse of illness to hide away from the Scotland defeat and to come out not 100% because he wants to do a job for the team.

There's a time for development and when you don't have a settled pack and need a win isn't it.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:58 pm

formerly known as Sam wrote:I'm sure the conversation was with Ellis and along the lines of "are you going to be ok to play?" And Ellis said "yes". Just like Marler who hadn't recovered from COVID adequately Vs SA. The player wanted to play and the team needed them. Morale wise it was probably a lift seeing a leader refuse to use the excuse of illness to hide away from the Scotland defeat and to come out not 100% because he wants to do a job for the team.

There's a time for development and when you don't have a settled pack and need a win isn't it.

Exactly......things like this often come out after the game. Perhaps Genge came out well in pre-match fitness tests and was showing no negative effects? End of the day the game was won so whatever the decision it worked....SB wants to win games and a loss to Wales would have been a big issue.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Wed Jun 14, 2023 7:58 pm

Yeah quite possibly, sometimes it takes a certain amount of bravery to say I'm not there and he does indicate he felt he couldn't pull out. Development is probably the hardest part of the job isn't it? The knife edge of getting people up to speed while maintaining results and that's why often it takes an injury for people to get their chance to shine.

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Post by Sgt_Pooly Wed Jun 14, 2023 8:17 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah quite possibly, sometimes it takes a certain amount of bravery to say I'm not there and he does indicate he felt he couldn't pull out. Development is probably the hardest part of the job isn't it? The knife edge of getting people up to speed while maintaining results and that's why often it takes an injury for people to get their chance to shine.

And I imagine if you're feeling a bit under the weather and somebody is offering you 20k to play....you tend to sharpen up a little!

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Post by king_carlos Thu Jun 15, 2023 12:44 am

What Sam and Sarge have said basically.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was Wales but yeah for me Vunipola is rapidly going backwards and concerns over his form are very valid. I don't even think he stands out in the loose compared to others. But doesn't that in itself say we need to build a bit of depth in some positions? If you're right and you very well could be the coaches are saying, we realise you're not fit enough Ellis, but even with that and the fact you're quite ill we have to start you as we don't think any of the others are good enough. We weren't really playing for anything other than development at that point following the Scotland defeat. So fitness is a big thing but was it being mitigated or managed adequately? Put that aside playing that pressure on players to play when ill, not sure that's entirely great for longer term morale etc. I know that players rarely if ever play at 100% condition but still.

I do feel it's fair to point out here that your biggest thing coming out of the Jones era of, "we're building for a RWC", was the next setup trying to win every single game and not treating tournaments outside the RWC as development tools...

Only Genge will know if he was pressured inappropriately. What we do know is he has a fantastic working relationship with Borthwick and judging by the snippets I've seen from the interview (full thing is behind a paywall) he was asked if he could play and said yes.

Players being asked to play through injuries and illness is in no way a new thing from Borthwick's setup though as you say. I've taken diclofenac (hereditary migraines and arthritis from being a chef) and it gave me nasty nausea, awful motion sickness so I'm very aware it's not a fun drug. It's no secret that corticosteroids and painkillers are used to a ludicrous extent in rugby though. Even players as high profile as BOD have spoken about prescription painkillers being handed out like tic-tac's on game day. Along with PEDs in schoolboy rugby and recreational drugs in the senior game, that abuse of 'legal' drugs just to get players on the pitch is part of rugby's dark underbelly we try not to look at. I bet Doc has a few stories to tell!

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Post by Rugby Fan Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:10 am

This is the Genge interview mentioned above:

When Ellis Genge reported for duty at Pennyhill Park on Sunday, as one of 28 players selected by Steve Borthwick for England’s first World Cup training camp, two small parts of the boisterous loosehead were missing, removed since his last visit in March.

During the Six Nations, in the lead up to England’s victory over Wales in Cardiff, Genge was suffering from a bout of the most severe tonsillitis. Incredibly, Genge managed to play for 54 minutes and was one of England’s standouts, but it was agreed that once Bristol’s season concluded in May, the two offending articles would be taken out. The operation’s 12-day convalescence denied Genge a post-season holiday with the beach traded for broth.

“I felt like I was going to die,” Genge, 28, tells Telegraph Sport. “I get chronic tonsillitis anyway but usually around November. This time it came in late February, the month of my birthday - what a present that was!

“Steve asked: ‘Can you do it?’ It was too close to the game to pull out. But I had all sorts - enough diclofenac to put an elephant to sleep. All the meds, cracked on. I was so ill after the match that I was shaking.

“We agreed that when I got an extended period of time off I’d get my tonsils out. It was a rough 12 days. I wanted to go away after but obviously with the World Cup coming up I felt like I had to train and put on the weight and muscle that I had lost during that 12-day period of not being able to eat. I don’t mind making the sacrifice now; if I get to go to another World Cup then it will all be worth it.”

As Genge sits in Syn, the Leicester gym he co-owns with former team-mate Sam Aspland-Robinson, the tonsil revelation comes as a dagger through the heart of the “game’s gone soft” brigade.

Tonsil-less the loosehead might be, but he is still the burly and baseball-capped Genge that we have always known. He is the gnarly prop, with “two hard shoulders, like the M5”, about to embark on a squat session using around 200kg of weights. But Genge is also a socio-economic campaigner; a leader; and, with his gym, an eco-warrior and entrepreneur.

The 48-cap loosehead is Bristolian and presently a Bear, but this gym is just a stone’s throw from Welford Road, the home of his former club, Leicester. In his “eco-conscious” gym, the flooring was upcycled from a basketball court while the water dispenser tells you how much plastic you’ve saved by refilling your bottle.

“Sam and I were both playing for Leicester when we decided we wanted to open a gym,” Genge says. “The way it pieced together, I’m back in Bristol and Sam’s here full-time. But we want to branch out - Bristol is turning green rapidly, so that will probably be our next spot.

“We’re 100 per cent owners - 50/50 - but to get the stuff that we wanted initially into the gym… kinetic floor plates which, when you drop weights, harness the energy and put it back onto the grid, all this amazing stuff they have in the US, it costs £10,000 a square metre for this stuff. And we just couldn’t afford it.

“So, what we did was make sure that everything was sustainably sourced - and from UK companies. We worked with local providers for the steel - it cost a bit more but it was the best way. We worked with [former England hooker] Phil Greening from Athletic Factory, he helped us with all the designs, trying to keep a low carbon footprint. We used Topps Tiles [a Leicester firm] for the bathrooms. We had to change from being ‘fully sustainable’ to ‘eco conscious’ just because - and I’ve discovered this in buying an electric car - it all sounds brilliant but, the truth is, in terms of the financials, it’s just not viable for everyone right now. Solar panels are £12k each. Air-source heating is £17k. It costs so much for people to turn that green leaf.

“The infrastructure of the country is not in line - and neither are people’s priorities, because it doesn’t make money. And people want to make money.”

Making money is one thing but Genge, unashamedly, wants to win. After the Tigers’ Premiership triumph in 2022 - where the loosehead skippered Leicester with Borthwick as coach - that will has developed into a fixation. Although “not happy” with last season on a personal note, he has the bit between his teeth for the road to the World Cup, especially after a sobering maiden voyage as captain of his country: a record Twickenham loss to France.

“It’s a weird situation because my first game as Leicester captain, under Steve, was the record defeat on the road against Wasps,” he says. “Straight after the [France] game, I felt the same emotions as I felt then but I’d already been through them, so it didn’t hurt as much. Weird, isn’t it? You’re the record losing captain at Twickenham. And I say that with a smile on my face, not because I find it funny but it just seems to be a part of me, that sort of underdog thing of being chucked in at the deep end, drowning, and then floating back to the surface and coming out with a strong front crawl. ‘Let’s chuck him in and see if he swims.’”

“I made a conscious decision to unapologetically be myself”
What bodes well for England is that, more often than not, Genge does swim. Painted as a “thug” for early parts of his career, he has had to do more than most to prove the doubters wrong. Genge has now captained his country, skippered a Premiership title-winning side, and is England’s first-choice loosehead. He is one of English rugby’s icons and, regarding the age-old debate of rugby selling its personalities in a more vibrant fashion, for Genge, authenticity is key.

“I think the issue is that people know that now, that rugby needs more of that, so I see a lot of people trying to portray themselves as something they’re not,” he says. “That’s not the answer. Accepting people for being themselves is the answer. Not everyone needs to be from Knowle West and get arrested when they’re growing up to then become a cult hero in rugby. If we start to accept people for solely being themselves - whether like or dislike - then you can still get on and play with each other on the pitch. Off the pitch, you haven’t got to be best friends.

“For a period in my career, I was told to stop being so aggressive and confrontational. I was reading tweets and stuff on social media: ‘I hate Genge, he’s a thug, he’s this, he’s that, he’s got a slit in his eyebrow, another tramline, he’s got gold teeth.’ They were painting me as an outright thug! People started saying my discipline was terrible - I’d never had a red card in my life! But it paints this picture very quickly.

“I’m not saying I hate people in rugby, I’m saying that I made a conscious decision about three years ago to say ‘this is me’ and to unapologetically be myself.”

For now, however, that metaphorical front crawl will be traded for literal sprinting at Pennyhill Park. For Genge, who reunites with fitness guru Aled Walters from his Leicester days, it is all about feeding off the collective to get in a position to compete in France in September.

“A lot of it is mindset,” Genge says. “I listen to a lot of David Goggins stuff. His knees are shot and he just carries on running, goes to that dark place and enjoys doing it. I’m not very good at running but I like the psychology behind it. And, when I’m blowing, I enjoy saying: ‘F--- that, nah, I’m going to keep going despite the pain.’ I’m dribbling - but I enjoy being in that place. But only in a team environment - I don’t like doing it on my own. I like to be in a hole with other people. I’m not great at pushing myself against myself. I need someone to drive me.

“I hear people speak about who’s going to win the World Cup and obviously there’s France, Ireland, South Africa, Eddie [Jones] going to Australia, all these names get chucked in. It doesn’t seem to be England! That’s never a bad thing; never a bad thing to be the underdog.”

Genge, more than anyone, would know.

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Post by king_carlos Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:16 am

Thanks, Rugby Fan.

Interesting read. I wasn't aware that Genge got tonsillitis each year but if it's usually in November he'd have presumably been playing through the AIs with it before at least. Tough cookie.

I knew Genge and SAR had opened a gym together but am delighted to hear it's going well. Aspland-Robinson looked a talented player who never quite found his position then injuries struck. He didn't seem quite fast enough to be a winger at Premiership level nor rounded enough to be a fullback. There was talk of a move to centre whilst on loan but he suffered that nasty leg break against Pau and never really seemed to get back to where he was. It's great that his ventures outside the game are succeeding.

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Post by No 7&1/2 Thu Jun 15, 2023 1:40 am

king_carlos wrote:What Sam and Sarge have said basically.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think it was Wales but yeah for me Vunipola is rapidly going backwards and concerns over his form are very valid. I don't even think he stands out in the loose compared to others. But doesn't that in itself say we need to build a bit of depth in some positions? If you're right and you very well could be the coaches are saying, we realise you're not fit enough Ellis, but even with that and the fact you're quite ill we have to start you as we don't think any of the others are good enough. We weren't really playing for anything other than development at that point following the Scotland defeat. So fitness is a big thing but was it being mitigated or managed adequately? Put that aside playing that pressure on players to play when ill, not sure that's entirely great for longer term morale etc. I know that players rarely if ever play at 100% condition but still.

I do feel it's fair to point out here that your biggest thing coming out of the Jones era of, "we're building for a RWC", was the next setup trying to win every single game and not treating tournaments outside the RWC as development tools...

Only Genge will know if he was pressured inappropriately. What we do know is he has a fantastic working relationship with Borthwick and judging by the snippets I've seen from the interview (full thing is behind a paywall) he was asked if he could play and said yes.

Players being asked to play through injuries and illness is in no way a new thing from Borthwick's setup though as you say. I've taken diclofenac (hereditary migraines and arthritis from being a chef) and it gave me nasty nausea, awful motion sickness so I'm very aware it's not a fun drug. It's no secret that corticosteroids and painkillers are used to a ludicrous extent in rugby though. Even players as high profile as BOD have spoken about prescription painkillers being handed out like tic-tac's on game day. Along with PEDs in schoolboy rugby and recreational drugs in the senior game, that abuse of 'legal' drugs just to get players on the pitch is part of rugby's dark underbelly we try not to look at. I bet Doc has a few stories to tell!

Quite true. On your point that we should be trying to win every game, and as I've said previously with England we need to be doing that development and winning at the same time. Which is why I see it as the most difficult aspect to attain. I know it's always going to be a 2 way thing but I really struggle to align the view that we're struggling for fitness but then choosing a guy being given a stack of prescription meds. So to come back to the point re development and winning, well 1 picking Genge seems a bit of risk when you hear how under the weather he was feeling so is Borthwick really saying that he trusts Rodd and Vunipola so little (fair enough on a fair few showings of the latter recently) but also does little to progress Rodd as a genuine option going forward. Now I know that in an ideal world Rodd would be a WC scrummager and not as Sam points out a potential weak spot but I don't believe it's of such concern that you don't consider it a better option than Genge in these circumstances (he did after all get thrown in vs SA). Surely as well it could have been used to call in R-R and have him in the camp too.

I do love the sound of that gym.

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Post by king_carlos Thu Jun 15, 2023 2:25 am

I'd love to know how many players are using prescription meds to play week to week would be my first thought. Probably a harrowing number is the answer.

As Sarge alludes to Genge might have showed all the signs in training that he was ready to play again though. Coaches picking a starter below their best because they still consider them better than the replacements isn't in anyway unusual either. Because Genge has mentioned the tonsillitis it's now being discussed. This likely happens in every single selection of every team without fans knowing though but the players being left out for a less than fully fit alternative will be completely aware after watching the starter struggle to train whilst being mummified in physio tape during the week!

Developing depth only ever happens once winning though really. Ireland (and Leinster have done that recently). NZ at their peak were brilliant at doing this by introducing the best talents to the standards very early, then letting them improve outside the spotlight. The Boks did this with their tight five under Erasmus but as that depth across those positions is arguably unique in the history of rugby that's a different story in a way. I can't think of many/any interantional setups who successfully develop depth before they are already good?

It's also worth noting that even great sides don't develop depth across the board. The ABs had that notorious falloff from Carter both in quality (of course after DC!) but also game time and development. Ireland are a brilliant team just now but have the same issue with Sexton.

In 2003 England would have dropped off from Wilko to using Catt out of position or Grayson who's only start since the 1999 RWC was a warmup against France where England largely played their 2nd string. There was also a big drop off from Thompson to a 36 year old Westy at hooker. Corry was a brilliant player but a better back row than lock too yet covering it for the final. Whilst on the discussion of players picked below full fitness Richard Hill was rushed back for the KOs on one leg despite the depth of Moody and Worsley as reserves. Sometimes your best players are just that.

As for calling up VRR. I've said a few times I don't think the notional limitations to EPS changes will actually have hampered Borthwick at all. Firstly it's a 45 man EPS with 5 changes so that's 50 man player pool. With injury replacements that's likely closer to 60 man player pool. Which is massive. So if VRR was left out I'd guess it was because he rated the others higher.

Then there's the long running rumours that when PRL and club coaches have been approached about additional EPS changes they've never turned it down. Which actually makes sense given no coach wants to deny a player an international callup. Imagine the conversation. "Coach I hear Borthwick wanted to pick me for England but you torpedoed a potential debut?" "Yeah, sorry mate, but I honestly didn't think you had any hope of being an interantional so we didn't sign enough depth in your position to cover a callup. My bad. Hopefully you get another chance down the line. Hope you feel up for the away game this weekend? By the way you're playing out of position because we also didn't sign enough players in that area and it's forecast to p*** it down in Newcastle. Any chance you've made a call on that reduced contract for next season?"

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