England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond

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Continued......

That's a surprisingly compact squad given the number of people he's supposed to have put on notice (though I guess we have to allow for the large number of players he can't yet select).

I'm not surprised to see Marler return after a 6N on the naughty step, but there are three full sets of front rows in there so I suspect the coaches will be looking at the setpiece in detail.

Overall, there's a bit of a flavour of getting the available core squad players into camp as early as possible while then trying some fringe players around the outside. I wonder whether he will keep this group together until he has to settle on the final squad, or if it will be expanded with the sf/F players and then whittled down.

Care is a slight surprise in the backs, but he is still in excellent form and could well be the best option for two of his fly half choices - Smith, obviously, but I have long felt that Care and Farrell is a better partnership than Youngs and Farrell - Care brings a bit of creativity to the mix, which allows Farrell to get on with managing the game. That said, Care has a terrible track record of finding ways to miss the RWC...

No Adam Radwan which is disappointing. If he's not in this sqad highly unlikely to make actual RWC squad.

Makes sense to include a veteran like Care at this point. He knows enough about international rugby to be a sounding board for some of the other guys in there. Spencer and Randall have about 10 caps between them and Smith has looked a bit lost at international level so far.

I'd expect Care to drop out before any actual games were played though, he was dreadful in Australia when given his chance last time and picking up the record for most yellow cards in a Prem season shows he can be a bit of a liability. I'd expect Randall to drop out as well.

Great to see some of those front row options in. Marler and Borthwick apparently have a good relationship so as long as Joe behaves it won't be a surprise to see him in there.

mountain man wrote:No Adam Radwan which is disappointing. If he's not in this sqad highly unlikely to make actual RWC squad.

It's tough for Radwan, and arguably he would have a case over Hassell-Collins (but then on that basis you'd throw out almost the entire 6N squad). But realistically if he were going to have a shot at the RWC squad he'd have been looked at more seriously before now.

mountain man wrote:No Adam Radwan which is disappointing. If he's not in this sqad highly unlikely to make actual RWC squad.

Yeah, that ship has clearly sailed now.

Trying to figure out in my own head whether I'm surprised there's no Radwan or not. Doesn't seem high on the agenda for Borthwick to ask anything of his wingers other than to chase kicks so there are probably a few wingers higher on the selection sheet. Disappointing is probably more the feeling given that.  

There's some real positives though in that forward pack for people to make their mark; hopefully it's not all just filler and they get a fair crack of the whip. Nice to see Marler back as mentioned above, really glad Rapava-Ruskin is there, Hill, Blamire,  Mercer,Pearson all positive.

Bit disappointed not see Ojomoh included as well but we have the ever dependable Slade.

Well when you consider May is back in squad then omission of Radwan makes it harder to take. May was a great wing but he's not got pace of past and uncertainty seems to affect him now so I am disappointed Radwan not in this squad at least.

He's still up there with the best at contesting high balls, and that's what wingers are for mm.

The other thing pointed out to me about that is theres no actual 12's. All 13s who can cover 12.

So assuming Kelly will be called in and Farrell to cover.

Probably too early for Atkinson. Ojomoh doesnt seem to be raising any interest from Borthwick.

I've just noticed no Sam Simmonds either. Vunipola is there on injury rehab, makes me think Willis will be coming in?

As opposed to scoring tries you mean. Anyway, Steward and your mate Max will be catching the high balls...

mountain man wrote:As opposed to scoring tries you mean. Anyway, Steward and your mate Max will be catching the high balls...

It's clearly the number one aim for England! Steward will catch them, Malins doesn't get near enough to compete. But I forgot the number 2 attribute for wingers; to kick the leather off the ball!

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:As opposed to scoring tries you mean. Anyway, Steward and your mate Max will be catching the high balls...

It's clearly the number one aim for England! Steward will catch them, Malins doesn't get near enough to compete. But I forgot the number 2 attribute for wingers; to kick the leather off the ball!

Malins didn't seem to struggle in the Prem final. Him mugging off Reed in the air led to at least one Sarries try.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:As opposed to scoring tries you mean. Anyway, Steward and your mate Max will be catching the high balls...

It's clearly the number one aim for England! Steward will catch them, Malins doesn't get near enough to compete. But I forgot the number 2 attribute for wingers; to kick the leather off the ball!

Malins didn't seem to struggle in the Prem final. Him mugging off Reed in the air led to at least one Sarries try.

I had to go back and watch the tries again as I couldn't remember the exact incident. Having done so I don't know which try you mean. Nearest I can see is the 1st Malins try where he kicks far ahead, gets a lucky bounce but also pushes Reed into his own player. On another day (one where Joncker is TMO for instance) it's overruled. Never thought of Reed as a major threat for international honours though.

In terms of the kick chase we want Roebuck is better than Malins.

On club form, Malins deserves his chance as he's been superb for Saracens. I still have my reservations despite his solid displays in white...he's never going to set the world alight on the wing.

Sam Simmonds ruled himself out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-squad-simmonds-pulls-out/

Rugby Fan wrote:Sam Simmonds ruled himself out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-squad-simmonds-pulls-out/

Hardly a loss in the grander scheme of things....he's not exactly took to international rugby.

Should have been a 12.... sorry ill get my coat...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Sam Simmonds ruled himself out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-squad-simmonds-pulls-out/

Hardly a loss in the grander scheme of things....he's not exactly took to international rugby.

To change your quote slightly:

On club form, Simmonds deserves his chance as he's been superb for Exeter.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Sam Simmonds ruled himself out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-squad-simmonds-pulls-out/

Hardly a loss in the grander scheme of things....he's not exactly took to international rugby.

To change your quote slightly:

On club form, Simmonds deserves his chance as he's been superb for Exeter.

I don't think his club form has been anything like superb and he's been largely anonymous for his 15 caps.....

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Sam Simmonds ruled himself out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-squad-simmonds-pulls-out/

Hardly a loss in the grander scheme of things....he's not exactly took to international rugby.

To change your quote slightly:

On club form, Simmonds deserves his chance as he's been superb for Exeter.

I don't think his club form has been anything like superb and he's been largely anonymous for his 15 caps.....

He's been great for Exeter. I agree for his England caps he's not been as good. Same with Malins.

Can't agree with any of that....but hey ho.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:As opposed to scoring tries you mean. Anyway, Steward and your mate Max will be catching the high balls...

It's clearly the number one aim for England! Steward will catch them, Malins doesn't get near enough to compete. But I forgot the number 2 attribute for wingers; to kick the leather off the ball!

Malins didn't seem to struggle in the Prem final. Him mugging off Reed in the air led to at least one Sarries try.

I had to go back and watch the tries again as I couldn't remember the exact incident. Having done so I don't know which try you mean. Nearest I can see is the 1st Malins try where he kicks far ahead, gets a lucky bounce but also pushes Reed into his own player. On another day (one where Joncker is TMO for instance) it's overruled. Never thought of Reed as a major threat for international honours though.

In terms of the kick chase we want Roebuck is better than Malins.

I can't remember which one it is now but Malins wins the ball in the air with Reed on the touchline and gives Sarries the territory to score a few phases later.

Roebuck is good on the kick chase. Not sure his all round game is as developed as it could be but I wouldn't mind seeing him in a later training squad. Sale certainly suffered when Roebuck went off.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Sam Simmonds ruled himself out.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/06/12/england-rugby-world-cup-training-squad-simmonds-pulls-out/

Hardly a loss in the grander scheme of things....he's not exactly took to international rugby.

To change your quote slightly:

On club form, Simmonds deserves his chance as he's been superb for Exeter.

I don't think his club form has been anything like superb and he's been largely anonymous for his 15 caps.....

He's been great for Exeter. I agree for his England caps he's not been as good. Same with Malins.

Great for Exeter in general but this season I don't think he's been at his best. Possibly because the Chiefs pack has been hugely hit and miss and when you're the dynamic ball carrier it's always easier to look good when your side has some momentum.

I know you don't rate Simmonds in the mould of number 8 you like Sarge, much as I don't want Malins as his strengths I feel are minimised and he doesn't really excel at what I want to see in a white shirt. I think, or did that we're pretty close in agreement there? Thought we could agree on the club form of both though but yeah fair enough.

And Sam yes, he's been better, I suppose that's inevitable when your team is playing pretty flawlessly picking, up titles etc.

Overall I come back to that I doubt if any of us were to name our ideal looking squads that we would name the exact set of names as anyone else. I understand that Borthwick doesn't want to pick Radwan as he's looking for a distinct thing from his wingers; it just disappoints me that he's looking for what he is.

Pleasantly surprised how many Bath players are in the preliminary squad. Whilst under no illusions of how many will make the final squad, at least they have a chance to impress and gain an insight on the test standards required. Stuart, Lawrence and maybe Underhill and Cokanasiga making the cut.

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pleasantly surprised how many Bath players are in the preliminary squad. Whilst under no illusions of how many will make the final squad, at least they have a chance to impress and gain an insight on the test standards required. Stuart, Lawrence and maybe Underhill and Cokanasiga making the cut.

I think Ted Hill has a fair chance of getting a look in as well. Borthwick wasn't happy with the physicality of his pack in the 6N. He wanted Lawes in but seemingly didn't like Lawes fitness. Hill could be a good option at 6 and offers a jumping option at lineout time.

I'm not sure Underhill and Cokanasiga will make the cut. Underhill because he doesn't stay fit for long enough and Big Joe because he's just not consistent enough at making an impact. They both might get a go in a friendly mind.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Recwatcher16 wrote:Pleasantly surprised how many Bath players are in the preliminary squad. Whilst under no illusions of how many will make the final squad, at least they have a chance to impress and gain an insight on the test standards required. Stuart, Lawrence and maybe Underhill and Cokanasiga making the cut.

I think Ted Hill has a fair chance of getting a look in as well. Borthwick wasn't happy with the physicality of his pack in the 6N. He wanted Lawes in but seemingly didn't like Lawes fitness. Hill could be a good option at 6 and offers a jumping option at lineout time.

I'm not sure Underhill and Cokanasiga will make the cut. Underhill because he doesn't stay fit for long enough and Big Joe because he's just not consistent enough at making an impact. They both might get a go in a friendly mind.

Geordie really likes this...

I'm not sure Underhill and Cokanasiga will make the cut. Underhill because he doesn't stay fit for long enough and Big Joe because he's just not consistent enough at making an impact. They both might get a go in a friendly mind.

Yep agree on this. I fear for Underhill for future health, too many concussions and nasty ones.

mountain man wrote:

I'm not sure Underhill and Cokanasiga will make the cut. Underhill because he doesn't stay fit for long enough and Big Joe because he's just not consistent enough at making an impact. They both might get a go in a friendly mind.

Yep agree on this. I fear for Underhill for future health, too many concussions and nasty ones.

Would be such a shame if we never saw the Under-Curry combination again....they were so complementary.

Pearson might stop that anyway....he looks quite a player...skilled AND physical.

True, or Willis coming in, or as others above have mentioned Ted Hill was very impressive tail end of season for Bath.

Not sure Underhill is really that far up vying for a place currently. Think Curry and Willis have to start, and then for me it's interesting to see what Hill and Pearson do with their chances. Re the concern fitness wise on Underhill, he's had more appearances than Lawes this season but both now have a list of concussions. Bit like North you do start to worry about how many they pick up.

4 Itoje
5 Martin
6 Ted HIll
7 Tom Curry
8 Zac Mercer

20 Pearson off the bench

No that is a back 5 that id like to see have a run out. Dependent on Chessums injury aswell.

propdavid_london wrote:

mountain man wrote:

I'm not sure Underhill and Cokanasiga will make the cut. Underhill because he doesn't stay fit for long enough and Big Joe because he's just not consistent enough at making an impact. They both might get a go in a friendly mind.

Yep agree on this. I fear for Underhill for future health, too many concussions and nasty ones.

Would be such a shame if we never saw the Under-Curry combination again....they were so complementary.

To be clear Underhill is only a maybe with his destructive tackle style offering something different from a pure fetcher at the breakdown like Willis or the Curry's. It may be that Pearson offers the holy trio of fetcher, carrier and brutal tackler at test level. Time will tell. There is also Ludlum who played very well in 6N despite often being in a team on the back foot.
Suspect Ted Hill would need to cover more than one position to get a hope of selection and not sure his play at 8 would be good enough yet.
Mercer will be the interesting one who was slighted by EJ for not being physical enough but seemed to hold his own in the T14 perfectly well and gained recognition too.

The back row remains very competitive, which is clearly a good thing.

Cokanasiga credit remains that summer Ireland game where he would blast though midfield between Farrell and Tuilagi scoring tries without a hand laid on him. Been a few injuries since but would bet he would respond to training in the England camp. I would be more hopeful for him than Underhill making selection.

Geordie wrote:4 Itoje
5 Martin
6 Ted HIll
7 Tom Curry
8 Zac Mercer

20 Pearson off the bench

No that is a back 5 that id like to see have a run out. Dependent on Chessums injury aswell.

No room for Lawes?

Also, there are 118 caps in that back 5 - which sounds good - but 113 of those are Itoje and Curry. Martin, Hill, Mercer and Pearson have 5 caps between them, which is fine for post-RWC but very inexperienced for the tournament itself.

No space for Ben Earl? From what I have seen when I watch Sarries, he is a handful & a work horse.

I'd be more tempted to go with;

4. Ribbans
5. Itoje
6. Lawes/Hill
7. Curry
8. Mercer

19. Martin
20. Pearson/Earl/Underhill/Ludlam

The 20 shirt is a complete fight out and I think 6 is to a lesser extent. Ludlam did a fair job in the 6N. Very industrious and you can't fault what he did but at the same time he didn't really make the big impacts we needed from the backrow. Willis also very industrious but again a lot of effort but not many big moments. Dombrant just didn't bring the barnstorming runs we needed, unsure whether Mercer is the answer either but we'll have a look.

Martin doesn't have much experience so not sure I'd parachute him straight in but as an impact option that can play lock and 6 he could be useful.

Poorfour wrote:

Geordie wrote:4 Itoje
5 Martin
6 Ted HIll
7 Tom Curry
8 Zac Mercer

20 Pearson off the bench

No that is a back 5 that id like to see have a run out. Dependent on Chessums injury aswell.

No room for Lawes?

Also, there are 118 caps in that back 5 - which sounds good - but 113 of those are Itoje and Curry. Martin, Hill, Mercer and Pearson have 5 caps between them, which is fine for post-RWC but very inexperienced for the tournament itself.

I said thats a back 5 id like to see run out. I think its got a nice blend of raw power and skill.

If we're going actual starting WC side...then i think most will be surprised if a fully fit and firing Lawes is not selected at 6.

I agree about the caps / experience query aswell. But which of the experienced guys are putting their hand up?

Lock
Ewells is back...but i wouldnt want him anywhere near the side over say Chessum or hell even over an incredibly raw George Martin...and i know that might raise an eyebrow or two.
Ribbans - Will his contract abroad allow him to play...but hes barely got a cap himself.
Johnny Hill - Flattered to deceive for too long...but might get a recall.
Isiekwe will probably be in the squad...but yet another who ive backed for a long time..yet hasnt really stepped up in a way i thought or hoped he might.
Ive heard Launchbury named but he would have been in this group surely?
Any others?

Back Row
Aside from the obvious ones...Lawes, Curry...who else is experienced and an absolute must in the side?
Ben Earl is a fringe player who doesnt seem to gain trust in Jones or Borthwick?

Launchbury is apparently injured. I don't think Lawes is a must either, he's a quality player who is likely but he needs to lay down a marker or two pre tournament.

George, Itoje, Curry and Genge are the must haves up front. The other spots are very much open.

i see Radwan has had an operation on his hand, planned by the falcons...so i guess he knew he wasnt in the squad.

It would be nice to think he's still under consideration Geordie.

Back 3 is a really strong set of players. I do completely get poorfours point though and I think king made a similar one; that not everyone would see this strong until they've proven themselves. Experience is seen as super important in rugby at the WC but I always think we can get too caught up in it. Experience is king, you don't win anything with kids (as Hansen famously said before a double winning season). Some times you have to look at the skill set and leadership of these inexperienced players though and think sod it.

I fully agree 7.5, that experience is huge. The winning WC team always have huge cap numbers...isnt it something like 600+

But sometimes as you rightly say, the experienced option ISNT the better player. Sometimes the young pretender is actually the better option and also the one taking you forward post World Cup.

In regard to England at the moment...thats the case for quite a lot of the spots....the positions are literally wide open...and you find yourself asking do you go for the injury prone experienced option who hasnt hit the heights for a while...or the young unproven kid tearing up the prem.

Yeah well Ben Youngs has LOTS of experience but how many want him as England 9 for upcoming RWC?

First and foremost pick best team, that's it. If it coincides with players having lots of caps, great.

Far too often Jones picked on past form and it didn't work.

Obviously a caveat that it would be probably be unwise to start a whole new uncapped XV but that is very unlikely to happen.

I'm quite excited for the back 5, I think we have some great options and some young unknowns that could slot straight in.

4. Ribbans/Martin
5. Itoje/Chessum
6. Lawes/Hill
7. Curry/Pearson/Underhill

I'm not sure of this clamour for Mercer tbh...Time will tell....8 is certainly open. Its a shame none of the above 5 could fit in at 8 as they offer plenty around the park.

Tom Pearson Pearson is the exact height and weight as Gregory alldritt. Arguably carries like a top class 8 too. Could he be the next England 8 if given a few games?

Ted Hill..the next Vermuelen?

Borrowed this from elsewhere and it's quite interesting stats...particularly about a player I champion alot. Now stats don't tell the whole story we know that.... but it might explain why Ted has not been getitng picked...and does surprise me how bad they are. Others are very impressive. Ludlum...Mr Alround excellent in general.

Carries made per 80 minutes:
Ludlam - 12.2
T. Curry - 10.2
Pearson - 9.4
Earl - 9.4
B. Curry - 7.4
Underhill - 7.3
Hill - 7.2

Metres made per 80 minutes:
Earl - 43.5
T. Curry - 36.7
Ludlam - 35.0
Pearson - 30.2
Underhill - 27.2
B. Curry - 22.5
Hill - 19.2

Defenders beaten per 80 minutes:
Earl - 2.2
T. Curry - 2.1
Pearson - 2.1
Ludlam - 1.7
B. Curry - 1.1
Underhill - 0.7
Hill - 0.7

Tackles made per 80 minutes:
T. Curry - 17.0
B. Curry - 16.9
Pearson - 14.3
Earl - 13.0
Ludlam - 12.9
Underhill - 12.4
Hill - 7.0

Turnovers made per 80 minutes:
T. Curry - 2.1
Earl - 2.0
B. Curry - 1.6
Pearson - 1.3
Underhill - 1.2
Ludlam - 1.1
Hill - 0.2 (He's made 2 turnovers in 809 minutes of rugby...)

Tackle %
B. Curry, Ludlam, Pearson - 94%
T. Curry - 93%
Earl - 90%
Underhill - 84%
Hill - 76%

Ludlum for me is the perfect squad man and by the looks way better than Ted hill atm. Can play anywhere along the backrow. Such a hard working honest player that must be great to have in the squad. It's the same reasons I liked Wilson as he performed all the donkey work with no flashy bits, just hit what was in front of him and kept going. I think Tom curry definitely won the battle against earl in the prem final but earls stats are great for the flashier side of wing forward play but the nuts and bolts are slightly off the others. What are jack Willis stats out of interest? Plus is there a stat for successful clearouts at rucks? An under reported job in my opinion.

Geordie wrote:Ted Hill..the next Vermuelen?

If you want vermuelen size and heft then tom Willis is the right height and weight. He also has little regard for his body.