Premiership Rugby Round 22 - it's all in the motion

First topic message reminder :

Today, 7:45pm
Bristol - Sale
Gloucester-Bath

Tomorrow, 3;00pm
Harlequins-Falcons
Saints-Saracens

The day after, 3;00pm
Leicester-Exeter

Why oh why are the Friday and Saturday games on at the same time?  Don't the people who run the Premiership know this hurts tv ratings?  Another reason we need a massive shake-up.  Top to bottom.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lpPeQyT36Tg

That's got to be yellow ...

Some nice kicks in behind today from Tigers ...

So close to 100.freat tackle from Hogg.

Eh. Diving on the mam to stop a try. That's just stupid from Dickson. He's an awful ref.

That is dreadful just dreadful from Dickson. Well done tmo giving him an out but just a awful ref.

Somewhat of an odd call just now in Leicester vs Exeter.

Such a rubbish decision.

Baxter is an even bigger idiot tho.

Wow - that's a tricky one - his explanation sounds logical but I'm not sure about that - sure we see that sort of thing happen plenty of times ...

I'd like to see the wording of the relevant law because, if it is a law, then it is never enforced. If it's not a law then Dickson has dropped another massive clanger, like when he failed to send Farrell off.

Yeah that harsh. Right by letter of law but Woodburn just trying to stop Ashton.

As an aside, I so hope he gets number 100.

mountain man wrote:Yeah that harsh. Right by letter of law but Woodburn just trying to stop Ashton.

As an aside, I so hope he gets number 100.

It's not right by the letter of the law though. If adickson is correct and tge tackle has been completed Ashton shouldn't be holding the ball. Shocking decision and for every drive by an attacker near the line you will see similar things. Dickson is the worst ref around.

Ashton though was sliding in for try which is allowed.

Anyway he's now got the hundred.

Dickson has made some odd calls all game.

The ironic thing is if Ashton had just lifted his foot slightly then Chiefs would still have 15 on the pitch now ...

mountain man wrote:Ashton though was sliding in for try which is allowed.

Anyway he's now got the hundred.

Dickson has made some odd calls all game.

All career! It amazes me that Dickson still gets Premiership games, never mind internationals.

mountain man wrote:Ashton though was sliding in for try which is allowed.

Anyway he's now got the hundred.

Dickson has made some odd calls all game.

Well presumably by Dicksons made up laws the second you're sliding no one is allowed to tackle you.

Duty281 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Ashton though was sliding in for try which is allowed.

Anyway he's now got the hundred.

Dickson has made some odd calls all game.

All career! It amazes me that Dickson still gets Premiership games, never mind internationals.

True and last few games he's reffed he's got worse.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:Ashton though was sliding in for try which is allowed.

Anyway he's now got the hundred.

Dickson has made some odd calls all game.

Well presumably by Dicksons made up laws the second you're sliding no one is allowed to tackle you.

Well he is correct you cannot tackle a player who is on floor.

Hes not correct.

I'm sure he'll be protected again but he really just loses it sometimes. Italy Wales was a big man sausage up but this is worse.

Lol. Man sausage is way worse than the phrase I used.

If a player has been tackled and is on floor another player cannot dive on him which is how Dickson interpreted it
I'm not defending his decision but that is law as far as I am aware.

Happy to be corrected.

He didn't dive on him. He completed the tackle into touch.

Well again that is Dickson's interpretation.

Oh I agree on that. Its just he's rubbish and wrong.

Ha, brilliant hat trick celebration by Ashton
Not bad gets number 100 and a hat trick same game

Brad Shields once got a red through two yellows, the second of which was harsh. Seem to recall he got no ban, as the disciplinary panel decided the red was sufficient punishment on the day. If Woodburn's red stands, then I hope he gets treated similarly.

This happened in a game between Ulster and Glasgow. It also resulted in a yellow card and penalty try.

https://twitter.com/Murray_Kinsella/status/1441492384609669120

No 7&1/2 wrote:He didn't dive on him. He completed the tackle into touch.

I agree this is the key point. I was beyond surprised that was a penalty at all, let alone a yellow (and then a red due to two yellows). Thought he made a good play.

I think it is great that a former player would want to become a referee - and this should be encouraged. But Mr. Dickson sometimes does things that make my head spin.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He didn't dive on him. He completed the tackle into touch.

I agree this is the key point.  I was beyond surprised that was a penalty at all, let alone a yellow (and then a red due to two yellows).  Thought he made a good play.  

I think it is great that a former player would want to become a referee - and this should be encouraged.  But Mr. Dickson sometimes does things that make my head spin.  

You can't tackle somebody that's already on the floor, technically Dickson is correct. That being said it's an incredibly harsh call. How many times have we seen players slide in to stop the score? If Dickson hadn't have given it then no Tigers fan would have been calling for that decision. Lot of sympathy for Woodburn there, particularly because there isn't a lot of contact in the attempted tackle, if he'd dropped his shoulder/knee into Ashton or made head contact then we'd have all been agreeing with Dickson but he didn't.

Shame really because it moves the talking points away from what was quite a fun game of rugby that Tigers were dominating anyway. The red card really knocked Chiefs confidence and killed it as contest.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He didn't dive on him. He completed the tackle into touch.

I agree this is the key point.  I was beyond surprised that was a penalty at all, let alone a yellow (and then a red due to two yellows).  Thought he made a good play.  

I think it is great that a former player would want to become a referee - and this should be encouraged.  But Mr. Dickson sometimes does things that make my head spin.  

You can't tackle somebody that's already on the floor, technically Dickson is correct. That being said it's an incredibly harsh call. How many times have we seen players slide in to stop the score? If Dickson hadn't have given it then no Tigers fan would have been calling for that decision. Lot of sympathy for Woodburn there, particularly because there isn't a lot of contact in the attempted tackle, if he'd dropped his shoulder/knee into Ashton or made head contact then we'd have all been agreeing with Dickson but he didn't.

Shame really because it moves the talking points away from what was quite a fun game of rugby that Tigers were dominating anyway. The red card really knocked Chiefs confidence and killed it as contest.

I think it's very telling that Nigel Owens who doesn't normally mind too much pointing out mistakes even if it's just general points has avoided it all together and said that it would need to be a yellow and red if he's decided its against the laws. Of course you can make a tackle like this when someone is already on the ground. Unless I missed the pen try against Underhill vs Wales.

Rugby Fan wrote:Brad Shields once got a red through two yellows, the second of which was harsh. Seem to recall he got no ban,  as the disciplinary panel decided the red was sufficient punishment on the day. If Woodburn's red stands, then I hope he gets treated similarly.

Hopefully this will be case and I thought it was very harsh. Pretty sure most refs wouldn't even consider what Woodburn did was an offence.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He didn't dive on him. He completed the tackle into touch.

I agree this is the key point.  I was beyond surprised that was a penalty at all, let alone a yellow (and then a red due to two yellows).  Thought he made a good play.  

I think it is great that a former player would want to become a referee - and this should be encouraged.  But Mr. Dickson sometimes does things that make my head spin.  

You can't tackle somebody that's already on the floor, technically Dickson is correct. That being said it's an incredibly harsh call. How many times have we seen players slide in to stop the score? If Dickson hadn't have given it then no Tigers fan would have been calling for that decision. Lot of sympathy for Woodburn there, particularly because there isn't a lot of contact in the attempted tackle, if he'd dropped his shoulder/knee into Ashton or made head contact then we'd have all been agreeing with Dickson but he didn't.

Shame really because it moves the talking points away from what was quite a fun game of rugby that Tigers were dominating anyway. The red card really knocked Chiefs confidence and killed it as contest.

I think it's very telling that Nigel Owens who doesn't normally mind too much pointing out mistakes even if it's just general points has avoided it all together and said that it would need to be a yellow and red if he's decided its against the laws. Of course you can make a tackle like this when someone is already on the ground. Unless I missed the pen try against Underhill vs Wales.

Per 8.d in the laws relating to the tackle "Not play the ball or attempt to tackle an opponent while on the ground near the tackle."

Technically Dickson is correct but it's very harsh and not in keeping with general interpretations.

He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

No 7&1/2 wrote: Of course you can make a tackle like this when someone is already on the ground.

Not really. Hogg was penalized earlier in the same game when he was judged to have tackled a defender by falling on him. You see it quite a lot when there's a kick chase. The defender in the back field falls on the ball to collect it, and the attacker, charging forward at high speed, often can't stop himself from landing on top. The attacker is supposed to stay on his feet.

Look again at the video of the same situation in the Ulster-Glasgow match in the Twitter link above. At the time, some argued the attacker hadn't been held by the first tackle, and so was fair game for the second man to slide into stop him. The law discussion afterwards was all about how that contact was illegal, hence the penalty try. The fact this incident went to a red, because of Woodburn's earlier yellow, will at least mean we'll get to hear what a disciplinary panel thinks of this comedy of errors.

This resembles the Steward red card, as you can see the chain of logic which took the referee to his decision, while it just seems a daft outcome.

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

Yep exactly how I see it. By letter of law Dickson technically correct but zero sympathy shown as Woodburn must have thought he was just making fair tackle to get Ashton into touch.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

It's really easy to argue with him on this. Even the poor TMO did their best to point out he was wrong in the only way they can ie blatantly don't agree with you so have you considered this. You are simply allowed to try and stop tries. Consider how many times you see players go down on the line to stop the ball being placed. Dickson really needs stepping down for a few weeks.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

It's really easy to argue with him on this. Even the poor TMO did their best to point out he was wrong in the only way they can ie blatantly don't agree with you so have you considered this. You are simply allowed to try and stop tries. Consider how many times you see players go down on the line to stop the ball being placed. Dickson really needs stepping down for a few weeks.

Again I agree with this.

Basically only one in wrong is Dickson even though he can argue that technically he did right thing by letter of law.
Anyway, guess just wait and see if a ban issued. I'd be surprised if it was case.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

It's really easy to argue with him on this. Even the poor TMO did their best to point out he was wrong in the only way they can ie blatantly don't agree with you so have you considered this. You are simply allowed to try and stop tries. Consider how many times you see players go down on the line to stop the ball being placed. Dickson really needs stepping down for a few weeks.

Find the law that says you are allowed to leave your feet in the tackle area then. It's a completed tackle before Woodburn arrived.

Not that I want this interpretation of the law being enforced the way Dickson did though it's hard to think of a way you can rewrite the laws to stop refs awarding penalties for this is they want.

It's not a completed tackle as Ashton still has momentum. There's no need at that time for Ashton to release the ball at all is there? No because he's waiting to cross the try line. There is no where in the laws that prevents a second tackler helping here. Dickson is just wrong again. Same as he was in the fend in the Wales Italy game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

It's really easy to argue with him on this. Even the poor TMO did their best to point out he was wrong in the only way they can ie blatantly don't agree with you so have you considered this. You are simply allowed to try and stop tries. Consider how many times you see players go down on the line to stop the ball being placed. Dickson really needs stepping down for a few weeks.

The TMO sounded like he didn't care for the decision but he didn't try and tell Dickson he was wrong about Woodburn acting illegally. Instead, he tried to convince Dickson that Hogg has already effectively put Ashton in touch, so Woodburn hadn't stopped a try. If Dickson had agreed, then it wouldn't have been a penalty try, then automatic yellow, and automatic red.

That would have been an acceptable fudge for everyone. Unfortunately, Dickson is probably right that Woodburn stopped Ashton scoring, so I can see why he stuck to his guns.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not a completed tackle as Ashton still has momentum. There's no need at that time for Ashton to release the ball at all is there? No because he's waiting to cross the try line. There is no where in the laws that prevents a second tackler helping here. Dickson is just wrong again. Same as he was in the fend in the Wales Italy game.

Go back and look at the penalty try decision in the Ulster-Glasgow game. It's not about whether the tackled player has been held, or is heading for the line. It's about what action the defender took. Dickson is deeply unsympathetic to Woodburn but the law supports his decision.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:He's just not right, as he wasn't falling on a tackled player at all but actually tacking him. It was a fantastic piece of play, sadly Dickson is inept.

Part of the review by Dickson was to see whether the tackle was completed first. Ashton is brought to ground by Hogg before Woodburn slides in. Technically it's hard to argue with Dickson as by the letter of the law he's right.

That being said there's no sympathy being shown for how the game is played. I'm expecting Woodburn to receive no further punishment from the disciplinary committee.

It's really easy to argue with him on this. Even the poor TMO did their best to point out he was wrong in the only way they can ie blatantly don't agree with you so have you considered this. You are simply allowed to try and stop tries. Consider how many times you see players go down on the line to stop the ball being placed. Dickson really needs stepping down for a few weeks.

The TMO sounded like he didn't care for the decision but he didn't try and tell Dickson he was wrong about Woodburn acting illegally. Instead, he tried to convince Dickson that Hogg has already effectively put Ashton in touch, so Woodburn hadn't stopped a try. If Dickson had agreed, then it wouldn't have been a penalty try, then automatic yellow, and automatic red.

That would have been an acceptable fudge for everyone. Unfortunately, Dickson is probably right that Woodburn stopped Ashton scoring, so I can see why he stuck to his guns.

Yup I don't think he did try to argue around the illegality but I think that is in part something that is inherently wrong in the review system. I've seen a good few times where the offcials don't agree but it's all done nicely nicely i.e. would you like another look at that instead of er wth you talking about you mad bugger.

And to come back, no he really isn't right! Dickson would have ruled Underhill a pen try against Wales which would have been as big a mistake as this.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not a completed tackle as Ashton still has momentum. There's no need at that time for Ashton to release the ball at all is there? No because he's waiting to cross the try line. There is no where in the laws that prevents a second tackler helping here. Dickson is just wrong again. Same as he was in the fend in the Wales Italy game.

Go back and look at the penalty try decision in the Ulster-Glasgow game. It's not about whether the tackled player has been held, or is heading for the line. It's about what action the defender took. Dickson is deeply unsympathetic to Woodburn but the law supports his decision.

I've seen it. The only thing you could say there is that he potentially drops a knee.

Incredibly measured and calm interview with Baxter post match.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0kBFC1qLgE

Dickson was involved in an almost identical situation in the final minutes of the Quins v Bristol game a while back. On that occasion he refereed it the way most rugby observers would have done ie no sanction. Apparently though, he was admonished by the referees accessor that day for making an 'incorrect' decision. Which may explain why he was so adamant that the action deserved sanction.

Nigel Owens has commented on Twitter.

"Personally if we penalise this then every player will now dive on the ground from 5m out and slide over knowing that it’s  virtually impossible to defend it. He doesn’t dive on him so for me play on.  But not sure if they have had a directive on it mind.

I think this [the incident] is different to what the law says . For example you can’t tackle a player in the air . But if a player dives in the air to score a try then we allow him to be tackled . So for me same here player siding in tackled or not can be defended by a player sliding too."

Seems to be the common sense that Dickson is lacking. Don't imagine there was a directive on it, otherwise we'd have seen this penalised in other games.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's not a completed tackle as Ashton still has momentum. There's no need at that time for Ashton to release the ball at all is there? No because he's waiting to cross the try line. There is no where in the laws that prevents a second tackler helping here. Dickson is just wrong again. Same as he was in the fend in the Wales Italy game.

There's nothing in the tackle laws about stopping momentum, he's brought to the floor and held. Ashton cannot generate any further momentum but he is allowed to place the ball and wait for the tackle momentum to finish before doing so, Hogg is also required to roll away but normal leeway is allowed to momentum. His knees are on the floor and Hogg is in contact so in law terms the tackle is completed.

It's the issue with rugby's selective application of its rules.

The tackle area becomes an absolute disaster close to the line. Both with defence of the pick and go but also situations such as this. There can be arguments that attackers are jumping into tackles near the line often too.

Mauls near the line become a similar free for all.

Feeding in scrums. Skew lineout throws increasingly not being called if the defence don't compete. Hookers standing well inside the pitch to shorten their throws. Hookers taking a little step towards their side of the gap once the lineout is set so that they can throw it 'straight' but not down the centre.

The rules were written when the game was played by completely different athletes. We are trying to adjust them by making lots of little changes. If anything there is a good argument to look at all the areas where the rules just no longer work or aren't applied. Then decide whether the rules need rewriting to fit the current game or whether they simply need to be enforced again.

It's a very harsh call for Woodburn to fall foul of. In an already won Premiership match it isn't as big a deal. In a KO game at the RWC it's somewhat different.

So slide in, no ones allowed to touch you, guaranteed try every time. Or perhaps Dickson was wrong?