Premiership Playoffs 2023

First topic message reminder :

The 2022-2023 season - Thank goodness it's over.  Probably the worst season in Premiership history, or certainly after the first few.  Two teams folding, blatant inconsistencies officiating cards spoiling games, on-going concerns about salary cap violations, top players starting an exodus to France, all backdropped by the financial weakness of the entire on-going operation.  Waiting for the damned thing to slowly end seemed at times like fingernails on a chalkboard (as opposed to marker on a whiteboard).  

At least the Rugby gods have come good and shown us all they have a sense of humour:  Saints sneaking into the last playoff spot with the second most point scored in the Premiership and the second most points surrendered.  UFB.  But, at least this shows in an incontrovertible manner that the Rugby gods, at least some time, do wear Black, Green, & Gold!

Saturday, May 13:  saracens-Saints, Stone Ex Salary Cap Cheater Stadium
Sunday, May 14:  Sale-Tigers, AJ Bell Stadium (Salford)
Saturday, May 20:  Watch French and Irish dudes play with each other
Saturday, May 27:  Tigers-Saints, Twickenham Courtney Lawes Stadium, for the Championship of the East Midlands, Mercia, England, and the World.  

Oh yeah.  Discuss....

Awful for the young lad, hope it doesn't affect him too much.

And again! That is really poor, to be fair....

Poor half from JVP......his attempt at getting across for the Sale try was awful.

Tight game, better side won. Ford a big difference.

Sale Saracens is a good match up. Wouldn't like to call it really.

As a northern rugby fan I am really pleased to see Sale in the final, but i can't really see them beating Saracens (hope I am wrong), and I would have said that even before the injuries, which makes it harder.

Squeaky bum time gets to everyone.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't say I saw too much of a right arm wrap from youngs there. Interpretation saved a red though.

Left arm clearly wraps and there's no shoulder contact, his head hits the shoulder of du Preez. Barnes was correct with nothing doing. Was never going to be a red but there would have been the question of a pen try.

I agree in part. Left arm wraps. Bit like I said didn't see any wrap from the right. And I see head on head. So very much in red card territory.

You're the only one who did. Youngs clearly headbutts du Preez's shoulder which is why du Preez is fine and Youngs struggling to stand up.

Cumbrian wrote:As a northern rugby fan I am really pleased to see Sale in the final, but i can't really see them beating Saracens (hope I am wrong), and I would have said that even before the injuries, which makes it harder.

Sarries have a few injuries of their own. Their backrow looked pretty iffy in the second half Vs Saints. Sale have a far better pack that Saints so will be putting them under a lot more pressure.

Ford Vs Farrell in the final will be an interesting watch. It's a real shame we were deprived of Ford Vs Pollard today.

A lot of young EQ players put their hands up. Martin was very good, Warr the best 9 of the four that featured (just pipping JVP), Kelly kept Manu largely quiet and threw a beauty of a pass for the Potter score. The two fullbacks both had good games under heaps of pressure, young Carpenter must be nudging his name into contention for the world cup training squad.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't say I saw too much of a right arm wrap from youngs there. Interpretation saved a red though.

Left arm clearly wraps and there's no shoulder contact, his head hits the shoulder of du Preez. Barnes was correct with nothing doing. Was never going to be a red but there would have been the question of a pen try.

I agree in part. Left arm wraps. Bit like I said didn't see any wrap from the right. And I see head on head. So very much in red card territory.

You're the only one who did. Youngs clearly headbutts du Preez's shoulder which is why du Preez is fine and Youngs struggling to stand up.

Hmm.

Still don't think Warr is a better bet than Quirke VP or Mitchell.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't say I saw too much of a right arm wrap from youngs there. Interpretation saved a red though.

Left arm clearly wraps and there's no shoulder contact, his head hits the shoulder of du Preez. Barnes was correct with nothing doing. Was never going to be a red but there would have been the question of a pen try.

I agree in part. Left arm wraps. Bit like I said didn't see any wrap from the right. And I see head on head. So very much in red card territory.

You're the only one who did. Youngs clearly headbutts du Preez's shoulder which is why du Preez is fine and Youngs struggling to stand up.

Hmm.

Was out this afternoon so watching now - have to agree with Sam on this one, from the front angle you can see clear daylight between the heads and Youngs' head hitting du Preez's shoulder ...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still don't think Warr is a better bet than Quirke VP or Mitchell.

From what I've read on the England thread I don't think Sam or anyone else has argued that. Merely pointed out that Warr has been in very good form and Quirke needs some game time given he's such a young player. Returning from injury and almost immediately playing well again is a skill seen in experienced players - Lawes has done it many times now for instance. Quirke's a great talent but has looked rusty since returning, hence Warr still starting so far.

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't say I saw too much of a right arm wrap from youngs there. Interpretation saved a red though.

Left arm clearly wraps and there's no shoulder contact, his head hits the shoulder of du Preez. Barnes was correct with nothing doing. Was never going to be a red but there would have been the question of a pen try.

I agree in part. Left arm wraps. Bit like I said didn't see any wrap from the right. And I see head on head. So very much in red card territory.

You're the only one who did. Youngs clearly headbutts du Preez's shoulder which is why du Preez is fine and Youngs struggling to stand up.

Hmm.

Was out this afternoon so watching now - have to agree with Sam on this one, from the front angle you can see clear daylight between the heads and Youngs' head hitting du Preez's shoulder ...

It's probably worth noting here that 7.5 has such a long running and visceral dislike of Youngs that if YBY got punched in the face 7.5 would probably argue he should've been red carded for headbutting the blokes fist.

I'd argue on the basis of the incident like normal.

Sale deserved winners in the end.

Tigers had a real chance at the end when O'Flaherty came on for Dan du Preez and Hill was limping. That missed touch finder was the nail in it though.

Tigers attack was really improving over the second half of this season but barely fired a shot today outside of Kelly's terrific ball for the try. I thought Scott was the right call to start with Porter working back from injury and Scott our form centre. We really missed Porter's carrying though.

Youngs was having a good game and JvP after a decent start got worse as the second half went on. Added to Pollard's absence we just lost control. Meanwhile Ford was absolutely superb and Rob du Preez continued a very strong season.

Steward's fumble compounded by a really poor choice to still kick under pressure summed up the lack of accuracy in a way.

Both our THs had pretty average days out as well. It's been such a position of strength over the last 3 years with Coley and Heyes. A frustrating day for both to go poorly.

I thought Ben Curry was having another very good game for Sale so it was a real shame to see him go off with a nasty looking injury. Elsewhere for Sale I thought Tom Curry and Manu we both good. McIntyre was prominent and Jonny Hill was once again really strong. Their whole back three showed up well too. Roebuck is a real handful, Reeds pickup for his try was very slick and Carpenter looks a talent.

Congrats to Sale. With the forward injuries Sarries will be a big challenge but if Ford can control the game as he did today there is definitely a shot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'd argue on the basis of the incident like normal.

On the basis of the incident I thought Barnes got it spot on. It's very clearly head on shoulder, the left arm is wrapping.

As Sam said. The question is still then whether either of you, or anyone else can say with a straight face whether the right arm wraps at all.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still don't think Warr is a better bet than Quirke VP or Mitchell.

From what I've read on the England thread I don't think Sam or anyone else has argued that. Merely pointed out that Warr has been in very good form and Quirke needs some game time given he's such a young player. Returning from injury and almost immediately playing well again is a skill seen in experienced players - Lawes has done it many times now for instance. Quirke's a great talent but has looked rusty since returning, hence Warr still starting so far.

I don't know about better but in terms of form I think Warr has been the form 9 in the Prem this season. He's been playing out of his skin all season long. A real break out season for him (he's only 23). He might miss that bit of magic that Mitchell and Quirke might have and doesn't have the range of skills JVP has but he's got a good all round game and his consistency has been impressive.

He certainly deserves a look in at international level even if it's only the training squad.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As Sam said. The question is still then whether either of you, or anyone else can say with a straight face whether the right arm wraps at all.

Absolutely nowhere in the laws does it state the tackler has to wrap with both arms to my knowledge. The reason wrapping gets mentioned is because if a player isn't wrapping it can allow them to lead with the elbow or shoulder in a dangerous fashion. Which didn't happen here. It's the tacklers head on the ball carriers shoulder.

No 7&1/2 wrote:As Sam said. The question is still then whether either of you, or anyone else can say with a straight face whether the right arm wraps at all.

A one arm wrap is often enough as long as the other arm isn't tucked so that a shoulder can be used more prominently.

You can't with a straight face suggest that Youngs is tucking the arm for a big shot can you? He gets caught rushing across gets his head on the wrong side.

A one arm wrap is not considered a legal tackle. Without that right arm wrapping it doesn't matter what you think he's going for. Yes he gets caught and doesn't complete a legal tackle. Once you think that then mitigation goes put of the window hence my first comment on it.

Does it actually say anywhere in the laws that both arms need to be wrapped?

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/law/9

Just re watched it and to be fair the back angle looked head on head, the one behind shows no head so not a red. Should have been a pen try and yellow though. And yes you need both arms or at least the ref thinking you're trying to use both. It's not evident all in this case.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still don't think Warr is a better bet than Quirke VP or Mitchell.

From what I've read on the England thread I don't think Sam or anyone else has argued that. Merely pointed out that Warr has been in very good form and Quirke needs some game time given he's such a young player. Returning from injury and almost immediately playing well again is a skill seen in experienced players - Lawes has done it many times now for instance. Quirke's a great talent but has looked rusty since returning, hence Warr still starting so far.

I don't know about better but in terms of form I think Warr has been the form 9 in the Prem this season. He's been playing out of his skin all season long. A real break out season for him (he's only 23). He might miss that bit of magic that Mitchell and Quirke might have and doesn't have the range of skills JVP has but he's got a good all round game and his consistency has been impressive.

He certainly deserves a look in at international level even if it's only the training squad.

Scotland might be looking for another SH after the WC


To be fair he has very decent Scottish credentials, a mother, played age grade and went to school in Scotland for a while.

BigGee wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Still don't think Warr is a better bet than Quirke VP or Mitchell.

From what I've read on the England thread I don't think Sam or anyone else has argued that. Merely pointed out that Warr has been in very good form and Quirke needs some game time given he's such a young player. Returning from injury and almost immediately playing well again is a skill seen in experienced players - Lawes has done it many times now for instance. Quirke's a great talent but has looked rusty since returning, hence Warr still starting so far.

I don't know about better but in terms of form I think Warr has been the form 9 in the Prem this season. He's been playing out of his skin all season long. A real break out season for him (he's only 23). He might miss that bit of magic that Mitchell and Quirke might have and doesn't have the range of skills JVP has but he's got a good all round game and his consistency has been impressive.

He certainly deserves a look in at international level even if it's only the training squad.

Scotland might be looking for another SH after the WC


To be fair he has very decent Scottish credentials, a mother, played age grade and went to school in Scotland for a while.

He's a Cheshire lad really but Wiki suggests he did spend some school time in Shropshire and Scotland in his later teenage years. An odd combo. He switched to represent England at under 20s so could switch back again.

Ben White has done well out of changing allegiance. Warr could do just as well. He'd need to step up another level again but he's gone from squad man to first choice at Sale this season so it's a possibility.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just re watched it and to be fair the back angle looked head on head, the one behind shows no head so not a red. Should have been a pen try and yellow though. And yes you need both arms or at least the ref thinking you're trying to use both. It's not evident all in this case.

9.16 A player must not charge or knock down an opponent carrying the ball without attempting to grasp that player.

Doesn't say with both arms.

king_carlos wrote:

Heaf wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Can't say I saw too much of a right arm wrap from youngs there. Interpretation saved a red though.

Left arm clearly wraps and there's no shoulder contact, his head hits the shoulder of du Preez. Barnes was correct with nothing doing. Was never going to be a red but there would have been the question of a pen try.

I agree in part. Left arm wraps. Bit like I said didn't see any wrap from the right. And I see head on head. So very much in red card territory.

You're the only one who did. Youngs clearly headbutts du Preez's shoulder which is why du Preez is fine and Youngs struggling to stand up.

Hmm.

Was out this afternoon so watching now - have to agree with Sam on this one, from the front angle you can see clear daylight between the heads and Youngs' head hitting du Preez's shoulder ...

It's probably worth noting here that 7.5 has such a long running and visceral dislike of Youngs that if YBY got punched in the face 7.5 would probably argue he should've been red carded for headbutting the blokes fist.

Hey, that used to happen to me a lot.  Getting in trouble when someone for no reason at all would go out and deliberately head butt my fists.  I remember when the Army became so worried about the state of my hands, they sent me off to West Africa.  They really cared about me.....

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:As a northern rugby fan I am really pleased to see Sale in the final, but i can't really see them beating Saracens (hope I am wrong), and I would have said that even before the injuries, which makes it harder.

Sarries have a few injuries of their own. Their backrow looked pretty iffy in the second half Vs Saints. Sale have a far better pack that Saints so will be putting them under a lot more pressure.

Ford Vs Farrell in the final will be an interesting watch. It's a real shame we were deprived of Ford Vs Pollard today.

A lot of young EQ players put their hands up. Martin was very good, Warr the best 9 of the four that featured (just pipping JVP), Kelly kept Manu largely quiet and threw a beauty of a pass for the Potter score. The two fullbacks both had good games under heaps of pressure, young Carpenter must be nudging his name into contention for the world cup training squad.

JVP was easily the worst of the 4.....some going. He was at fault for the game changing try and some of his kicking was terrible.

I thought Youngs was decent and the Sale pair did well.

Never a card for the Youngs incident.

I didn't realise so many on here didn't think you had to use 2 arms to tackle tbf!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just re watched it and to be fair the back angle looked head on head, the one behind shows no head so not a red. Should have been a pen try and yellow though. And yes you need both arms or at least the ref thinking you're trying to use both. It's not evident all in this case.

Wasn't his foot in touch before contact was made?

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't realise so many on here didn't think you had to use 2 arms to tackle tbf!

Not wanting to sound abrasive but third time asking now, can you give us the law that says tacklers must wrap with both arms?

I was a ref and don't know of it. I reread the laws (on World Rugby's website for reference) last night to check and couldn't find it. Sam clearly looked up the laws last night to find the above law which clearly doesn't state it.

If all tacklers had to fully wrap with both arms then a gigantic proportion of tackles would be illegal.

Oakdene wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Just re watched it and to be fair the back angle looked head on head, the one behind shows no head so not a red. Should have been a pen try and yellow though. And yes you need both arms or at least the ref thinking you're trying to use both. It's not evident all in this case.

Wasn't his foot in touch before contact was made?

Bracing as he took the tackle was when the foot went out from memory.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:As a northern rugby fan I am really pleased to see Sale in the final, but i can't really see them beating Saracens (hope I am wrong), and I would have said that even before the injuries, which makes it harder.

Sarries have a few injuries of their own. Their backrow looked pretty iffy in the second half Vs Saints. Sale have a far better pack that Saints so will be putting them under a lot more pressure.

Ford Vs Farrell in the final will be an interesting watch. It's a real shame we were deprived of Ford Vs Pollard today.

A lot of young EQ players put their hands up. Martin was very good, Warr the best 9 of the four that featured (just pipping JVP), Kelly kept Manu largely quiet and threw a beauty of a pass for the Potter score. The two fullbacks both had good games under heaps of pressure, young Carpenter must be nudging his name into contention for the world cup training squad.

JVP was easily the worst of the 4.....some going. He was at fault for the game changing try and some of his kicking was terrible.

I thought Youngs was decent and the Sale pair did well.

Never a card for the Youngs incident.

I thought JvP started well but had a very poor second half. He showed his inexperience. Youngs played well I thought. Combined with missing Pollard we really missed him after the HIA.

Quirke I thought showed some sharp touches but also some rusty ones. Like most his apps since getting back fit.

Warr just executes the Sanderson plan very well. A bit like Maunder with Chiefs at their best. Neither were the best players in their team by a distance but he's executing a game plan really well.

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't realise so many on here didn't think you had to use 2 arms to tackle tbf!

Not wanting to sound abrasive but third time asking now, can you give us the law that says tacklers must wrap with both arms?

I was a ref and don't know of it. I reread the laws (on World Rugby's website for reference) last night to check and couldn't find it. Sam clearly looked up the laws last night to find the above law which clearly doesn't state it.

If all tacklers had to fully wrap with both arms then a gigantic proportion of tackles would be illegal.

You don't sound abrasive, it's fine. You can see the rules around shoulder charges. You need to make the attempt to wrap both not just grasp with 1. Up until last week there weren't any laws specifically saying you can't jump out of or before a tackle after all.

From world rugby 'A shoulder charge is defined thus: “Arm of the shoulder making contact with the ball carrier (BC) is behind the tackler’s body or tucked in ‘sling’ position at contact.”'

Can't remember to many specific examples of this being discussed in game, the obvious one is Farrell vs SA, think Tuilagi vs Wales was done for just using 1 arm.

Hope no one minds me plonking this here? From the Guardian. Didn't realise (perhaps stupidly that it had got that desperate for players that 1 atleast had been made homeless. Would love to hear Jones thoughts on Lawrence at some point in the future:


'To collect his award as the Premiership’s player of the season, Ollie Lawrence had to leave Bath’s end-of-season bash in Lisbon on Tuesday. Two delayed flights later, plus a mad dash from Gatwick to central London, and Lawrence made it with moments to spare. Suffice it to say that tortuous journey is small fry compared to that which he has been on this season.

Lawrence was a worthy winner of the award for the manner in which he has performed on the pitch, firstly for Worcester despite their slide into the abyss, then for Bath who offered him, as he puts it, “a second chance”. He speaks of playing with a “desperation” to make the most of the lifeline afforded to him at the Rec and that was evident in his performances from the word go – bursting tackles and hitting rucks with such alacrity you could not help but take note. He is a worthy winner for how he handled himself off the field too, taking in a Worcester academy player who had been made homeless, addressing the Warriors’ plight in public with passion and resilience in equal measure.

The 23-year-old centre has always had an ability to break tackles and though Eddie Jones’s claim in his book that Lawrence’s “attitude was not hungry or disciplined enough” has always felt staggeringly harsh, a dubious attempt at motivation even, there can be no doubting his desire now.

“I was given an opportunity and I couldn’t not take it,” said Lawrence, who was among the Bath try-scorers last weekend when a thumping win over Saracens secured a place in next season’s Champions Cup. “That desperation, knowing that I could have not had a job, some of my best mates still don’t now, to be here now is pretty special.

“I felt like it gave me a second chance, looking at my career and looking at what I wanted to do with it. The hunger and the motivation for me was that I want to be one of the best players in this country and this league. I tried to do it this season, some people agree, some disagree but as long as I keep striving to keep getting better I’ll be happy with that.”

Not long after Jones reached his questionable conclusions – in reality Lawrence struggled to make an impact in his first few caps because England could not get him the ball – Lawrence suffered a debilitating calf injury. Then came Worcester’s death spiral. All things considered, it is a lot for someone still in the early stages of their career.

“My family are people that I’m very close with but sometimes they don’t always have an understanding of the rugby culture,” says Lawrence. “Anthony Watson was one of the players … we had a lot of conversations during those times, obviously he knew how tough it was for me, he’s been through similar injuries and similar struggles as well and he was a real support for me. I’ll always be grateful for that.

“When I’d talk to my friends from university about it and say: ‘I’m going to be out of a job, I don’t know what I’m going to do,’ that’s exactly how they live their lives day to day. It made me realise that I’m so fortunate to do what I love doing every single day, so I’m taking hold of that with both hands. I’d like to think I’ve matured a bit – some of the boys might not think so – but on and off the field, as a person.”

If Lawrence has found a way to channel adversity this season, it is equally remarkable how he has not let up. He missed out on England’s initial Six Nations squad but injuries led to a start against Scotland – a first in nearly two years – and he kept his place, shining in the victory over Wales, until a hamstring injury against France.

He will, however, be part of the first tranche of players to convene in mid-June, with Steve Borthwick making clear what he expects of squad hopefuls, and Lawrence is approaching it with his hallmark determination. “The main thing is to make sure you’re fit going into these camps instead of using these camps to get fit,” he says. “My focus is to get as fit as possible, train as much as I can.”

Before that, though, Lawrence will be back at the airport soon enough for a stag-do for a former Worcester teammate, one of 16 heading to Barcelona. “You don’t have those same relationships but the ones you stay in touch with, they will last a lifetime,” he says. “I throw back to it now and I think about [the last week with Worcester] … I haven’t seen some of those boys for a very long time – but I am fortunate enough to have seen some of them – and to take the field at Sixways one last time and get the win was something that will always be special to me. Hopefully one day I can get back out there and play again in front of those fans.”'

No 7&1/2 wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't realise so many on here didn't think you had to use 2 arms to tackle tbf!

Not wanting to sound abrasive but third time asking now, can you give us the law that says tacklers must wrap with both arms?

I was a ref and don't know of it. I reread the laws (on World Rugby's website for reference) last night to check and couldn't find it. Sam clearly looked up the laws last night to find the above law which clearly doesn't state it.

If all tacklers had to fully wrap with both arms then a gigantic proportion of tackles would be illegal.

You don't sound abrasive, it's fine. You can see the rules around shoulder charges. You need to make the attempt to wrap both not just grasp with 1. Up until last week there weren't any laws specifically saying you can't jump out of or before a tackle after all.

From world rugby 'A shoulder charge is defined thus: “Arm of the shoulder making contact with the ball carrier (BC) is behind the tackler’s body or tucked in ‘sling’ position at contact.”'

Can't remember to many specific examples of this being discussed in game, the obvious one is Farrell vs SA, think Tuilagi vs Wales was done for just using 1 arm.

The arm isn't in the sling position or leading with the elbow being the point there though.

The 'sling' position as I was taught it on courses/qualifications I completed (level 3 then, I believe AMOA now but English rugby loves an acronym about as much as the army so might've changed again!) referred to players starting with the arm at their side then swinging it through after contact. This came about as there was concern players were doing this as a sort of diet version of the 'swinging arm'. They weren't taking a windup so it isn't as obvious but were keeping that arm down to use the impact of the collision to swing through into the carriers torso to stop momentum.

The tucked elbow is more blatant when seen as firstly the carrier might get hit in the head by that elbow or the tackler can drive that elbow through after contact. Both clearly dangerous.

That's my understanding from when I reffed and the application guidelines I've seen anyway. Wrapping is mentioned frequently as if you don't wrap it allows the tackle to lead solely with one shoulder or even the elbow, which is clearly dangerous. Youngs doesn't do this though. He's chest on with the left shoulder, the arm he wraps with making contact just after. The right shoulder marginally makes contact first but even that is mitigated by du Preez stepping inside.

By shoulder charge rules do you mean the Law Application Guidlines for high tackles rather than laws specifically? Genuinely interested given prior involvement in reffing, not just trying to be argumentative! As looking at those just now I again can't see wrapping with both arms specified.

The indicators of high degree of danger for shoulder charges are the tackler drawing the arm back prior to contact (not present here), tackler leaving the ground by throwing his momentum and that shoulder forward (not present here) and arm swing forward prior to contact (again not the case as Youngs doesn't swing the right arm, it's slightly in-front of him but not swinging forwards).

If that has changed then I stand corrected but when going through courses it often came up that you specifically didn't have to wrap with both arms, as it's actually rarer than many think especially as you go up through the leagues, the game gets faster and more physical. Tackles around the try line, closer to the ruck and mismatches between different sized players see tackles with one arm wrapped constantly for instance. Changing that would fundamentally alter the game.

No the arm is by his side not wrapping.

Re your point of where the definitions were, picked it up through an article from the Irish times at the time it was brought out. I do find it annoying that when the clarifications etc are completed by WR they don't add anything to the law book but merely plonk it in statements or elsewhere on their website.

If you're correct that you don't have to wrap both arms refs have been incorrect in their application of the laws for years.

king_carlos wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:As a northern rugby fan I am really pleased to see Sale in the final, but i can't really see them beating Saracens (hope I am wrong), and I would have said that even before the injuries, which makes it harder.

Sarries have a few injuries of their own. Their backrow looked pretty iffy in the second half Vs Saints. Sale have a far better pack that Saints so will be putting them under a lot more pressure.

Ford Vs Farrell in the final will be an interesting watch. It's a real shame we were deprived of Ford Vs Pollard today.

A lot of young EQ players put their hands up. Martin was very good, Warr the best 9 of the four that featured (just pipping JVP), Kelly kept Manu largely quiet and threw a beauty of a pass for the Potter score. The two fullbacks both had good games under heaps of pressure, young Carpenter must be nudging his name into contention for the world cup training squad.

JVP was easily the worst of the 4.....some going. He was at fault for the game changing try and some of his kicking was terrible.

I thought Youngs was decent and the Sale pair did well.

Never a card for the Youngs incident.

I thought JvP started well but had a very poor second half. He showed his inexperience. Youngs played well I thought. Combined with missing Pollard we really missed him after the HIA.

Quirke I thought showed some sharp touches but also some rusty ones. Like most his apps since getting back fit.

Warr just executes the Sanderson plan very well. A bit like Maunder with Chiefs at their best. Neither were the best players in their team by a distance but he's executing a game plan really well.

I think JVP suffered from the error Wigglesworth made that probably cost us the game. We started with all our most experienced backs available on the pitch. By the time we got towards the sharp end and the pressure was on we had Watson at 28, Porter at 25, Potter at 23 and then the rest aged 21/22. All the key decision makers once Gopperth went off were 22 or under.

Compare that to Sale who wisely brought on Sam James to help control the game alongside Ford. Bags of experience between those two even when du Preez went off late on.

I didn't like that we started with Youngs even when the team was announced as I wanted his experience to manage the game in the second half. I didn't expect we'd need it as badly as we did though as the point of having Pollard (or someone similar) is for these big games. That's why Sanderson spent so long working on Ford's fitness for the last three months, he knew the value in having that calibre of 10 available and not just going with the form RDP.

JVP suffered as the game went on but that's why you see the experienced international halfbacks go for good money. Quirke I was pretty disappointed in, couple of flashes but he offered less than Warr did. Warr might be a game plan type of guy but if you've got a team and a system that works you want your scrum half to be a cog that drives that system. Youngs was similar, not particularly impressive on his own but used his experience to keep Tigers in it and stick to the game plan.

A lot of academy players live together in housing provided by clubs either directly (I know some clubs directly rent housing they provide to players) or indirectly (renting from prior players who have moved away but still own a property, assistance in getting housing from sponsors, investors, board members, etc). As such it doesn't surprise me massively to hear such sad stories. Given a huge proportion of players come from affluent back grounds it may not have come to that for many who could move 'back home'. For some that won't be an option though.

I posted near the start of the season that the lack of planning around clubs potentially (inevitably...?) going boom from the leagues perspective. What happens to games already played, games to be played, teams losing income from home games, players cut adrift (should the broadcast rights payments for folded clubs be split evenly across remaining clubs but with the proviso it is only used to sign players from folded clubs outwith the cap for instance? Due to the lack of transparency in how things are run we have no clue if or what the planned solutions to this foreseeable situaition.

Similar planning should be in place to look after players as well as the league though. Especially the younger players who might be cut adrift having barely reached adulthood.

Youngs was brought on vs Scotland for a similar reason; didn't quite work out as planned Sam!

No 7&1/2 wrote:No the arm is by his side not wrapping.

Re your point of where the definitions were, picked it up through an article from the Irish times at the time it was brought out. I do find it annoying that when the clarifications etc are completed by WR they don't add anything to the law book but merely plonk it in statements or elsewhere on their website.

If you're correct that you don't have to wrap both arms refs have been incorrect in their application of the laws for years.

The left arm clearly wraps. I haven't written that the right arm wraps, it is by his side. I've said that it wasn't tucked or in the sling position though. Which is the case from this particular tackle.

From looking up the application guidelines directly there is again no reference to wrapping with both arms.

In situations where players are pinged for not wrapping with both arms it isn't for that specifically though. It's for the arm that isn't wrapping being used in a dangerous manner such as said sling position, tucking the elbow, leading directly with the shoulder of the not wrapping arm, swinging arms, etc. So that is arguably the law being applied correctly but some fans not fully understanding what the players are being penalised for.

Rugby's dire TV coverage is another bug bear of mine that leads to the last point though. The 'jobs for the boys' culture of handing prominent former players punditry gigs regardless of them being any good at it plays a huge role here. Good commentators and pundits whether former players or not work very hard at the job. Bill McLaren's famously chaotic office that he prepared in had 30,000 items of collected rugby paraphernalia that he studied. In cricket Richie Benaud was a trained journalist who researched the game tirelessly as a commentator. Increasingly across sports former players say they go into commentary because it's easy. If you're doing it right it shouldn't be easy. Coverage being so abject leads to poor explanation of such a messy games intricacies. Dallagio is a giant of the game, a bonafide England great. He also regularly doesn't know basic laws whilst being one of the most prominent commentators around.

formerly known as Sam wrote:I think JVP suffered from the error Wigglesworth made that probably cost us the game. We started with all our most experienced backs available on the pitch. By the time we got towards the sharp end and the pressure was on we had Watson at 28, Porter at 25, Potter at 23 and then the rest aged 21/22. All the key decision makers once Gopperth went off were 22 or under.

Compare that to Sale who wisely brought on Sam James to help control the game alongside Ford. Bags of experience between those two even when du Preez went off late on.

I didn't like that we started with Youngs even when the team was announced as I wanted his experience to manage the game in the second half. I didn't expect we'd need it as badly as we did though as the point of having Pollard (or someone similar) is for these big games. That's why Sanderson spent so long working on Ford's fitness for the last three months, he knew the value in having that calibre of 10 available and not just going with the form RDP.

I think that's more a lack of forward planning around the reserve 10. Gopperth and Atkinson have started 1 Prem game each for Tigers at 10 this season. Burns with 9 starts this season at 10 had by far the most apps after Pollard. Realising Freddie I don't have an issue with but once he was released we really should've got more minutes into the backups.

Similar to my feelings at 13 after the Leinster game. I don't specifically have a problem under the tighter cap with Potter or Cokanasiga being 3rd choice 13. If that is the case though then we need to get them minutes at 13 in less pressured matches. As opposed to ending up with Potter against Ringrose with so little game time in the most difficult position to defend in the modern game!

We haven't rotated as well this season I don't feel. In the back row last season it felt that Hanro, Wiese and Martin were rotated well so we has two units in the back row but weren't overworking them. This season it's felt like if they were fit they played - Wiese has actually made fewer apps for Tigers this season for instance but was also injured more I believe. I'm hoping we can rotate better next season with Hatherell joining. Likewise at hooker with Dolly fit. To be our biggest ball carriers in Montoya and Wiese were simply looking battered towards the end of the second half. Non stop rugby does that.

There are mitigating factors with injuries of course then the change in coaching. That slip in form when WW took over needed reversing and Pollard needed to get up to speed. I still feel that we could've taken some more risks in rotation to plan for potential issues such as having players at FH and 13 for KO games that had limited game time for Tigers in said positions.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs was brought on vs Scotland for a similar reason; didn't quite work out as planned Sam!

Wouldn't say they were comparable scenarios. Youngs came off the bench in the final last season and that worked out well. It was also used a fair few times this season to decent effect with JVP and Youngs.

Agree with that KC. Not getting Dolly into the squad to play Quins was a real error. He could have made a substantial difference in the second half when Montoya was starting to fade, having been everywhere all game that's expected.

Wigglesworth maybe showing a slight nativity there which maybe is to be expected in his first go at being a head coach. It'll be interesting to see how McKellar approaches things.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Youngs was brought on vs Scotland for a similar reason; didn't quite work out as planned Sam!

Wouldn't say they were comparable scenarios. Youngs came off the bench in the final last season and that worked out well. It was also used a fair few times this season to decent effect with JVP and Youngs.

Just saying that we can sometimes lean into best case scenarios and it's worth noting when we used Youngs for that steady experienced influence he came up very short in that game.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't realise so many on here didn't think you had to use 2 arms to tackle tbf!

Tap tackle?

formerly known as Sam wrote:Agree with that KC. Not getting Dolly into the squad to play Quins was a real error. He could have made a substantial difference in the second half when Montoya was starting to fade, having been everywhere all game that's expected.

Wigglesworth maybe showing a slight nativity there which maybe is to be expected in his first go at being a head coach. It'll be interesting to see how McKellar approaches things.

From seeing Dolly in the Saints friendlies I'm not sure he'd have truly got up to speed for a playoff semi even with the Quins game. It was a year lay off and he understandably looked a way off full fitness.

It's more over the regular season I was thinking. At hooker for instance I was really excited when we signed Taufete'e despite his work ons. I was thinking he'd take some of Dolly's game time or even be a specialist bench option and we'd rotate Montoya and Clare as starters through that. Then Taufete'e looked poor when (barely) used. His set-piece being worse than with Worcester and defensive positioning being fairly pish too. At that stage I think we either needed to look at another option we could genuinely rotate or commit to bringing Taufete'e along. We would've been weaker then than using Montoya and Clare but Julian mightn't have looked quite so torched coming into the closing stages yesterday.

Shoulda, coulda, woulda though. Also much easier to say with hindsight. As said there was a lot of pressure on WW to stop the slide and had we not kept picking these guys maybe we wouldn't have made the top 4.

Overall I think WW did really well to turn things around after losing SB and KS, plus poorer injury luck than the previous season. He also developed the attack a bit but we completely closed it down for the semi. That's what we did last season as well interestingly. The attack was finally building but we closed shop for the KO games. Last year it worked but this year sadly not.

I really hope we can develop more strings to the bow next season. Thus far I think the recruitment points to a more rounded squad than this season. That is waiting on Watson's contract and a LH signing though amongst a couple of depth additions though.

Agree on much of that. With hooker I though lt Horton looked the most Tiger esque of the ones we borrowed for parts of the season but he was never given a go outside of the PRC where he played well. Probably because there wasn't an option for him to stick around.

Wiggy did a good job. It was somewhat of a thankless task as he was off himself in the summer and expectations weren't high when the RFU casually plundered the coaching staff. I think he'll mature into a really good coach and get a top job offered to him before to long.

I'm looking forward to what McKellar brings, we currently need a scrum coach, attack coach, head of S&C, a loosehead and probably one more forward addition be it a veteran lock or 7/8 cover (Kvesic?). That's if Watson does indeed stay if not then another back would be useful though again on the assumption that Kata (and maybe Wilkinson) are inbound as rumours suggest.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I didn't realise so many on here didn't think you had to use 2 arms to tackle tbf!

So we all agree Stewart's red card against Ireland was correct then.....