England 2023 - Post 6N and beyond - Prep for WC

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Continued.....

mountain man wrote:

On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case.

And you think that's true? I'd say 100% they are playing for a place in RWC 23, what Wigglesworth said is just sound bite for media.
Otherwise fringe/uncapped players would think "why am I bothering then".

This is definitely a trial, certainly if I was in team I'd be looking to make my mark and catch eye of coaches.

I was going to say the exact same thing. Every minute in training and most especially in a practice game is playing for a spot. This is pro sport. Wiggly comes off as either naïve or just rolling out the company line that everyone knows is not accurate.

Tight five looks strong. Backrow is a tad more experimental, trio there still with a point to prove.

Smith gets his club mates around him to see if he can find some form at this level. Care definitely has a point to prove after last summer and I'm sure Marchant wants to make the most of the RWC with his move to France curtailing his international possibilities in the short term.

Does Steward have to play every game? I'd have liked to see Arundell get a run out in the 15 shirt in this one whilst we're experimenting a bit. Murley over Malins would have been nice.

mountain man wrote:

On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case.

And you think that's true? I'd say 100% they are playing for a place in RWC 23, what Wigglesworth said is just sound bite for media.
Otherwise fringe/uncapped players would think "why am I bothering then".

This is definitely a trial, certainly if I was in team I'd be looking to make my mark and catch eye of coaches.

Not sure why he would lie? Would fit into the previous comments around experience being king. Unless someone has an absolute nightmare I'd say they know; and I do think it'll be that rather than a stormer that could sway. Possibly it's a call from this game on Blamire or Dan, Walker and George guaranteed to go.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case.

And you think that's true? I'd say 100% they are playing for a place in RWC 23, what Wigglesworth said is just sound bite for media.
Otherwise fringe/uncapped players would think "why am I bothering then".

This is definitely a trial, certainly if I was in team I'd be looking to make my mark and catch eye of coaches.

Not sure why he would lie? Would fit into the previous comments around experience being king. Unless someone has an absolute nightmare I'd say they know; and I do think it'll be that rather than a stormer that could sway. Possibly it's a call from this game on Blamire or Dan, Walker and George guaranteed to go.

Id like to know what Walker has done to make him guarenteed? Hes done no more than Blamire or Dan to be fair...

I think Walker is simply a Borthwick favourite.

I kind of like the fact that both England and Wales are playing experimental sides. And that Ben Youngs is not playing.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mountain man wrote:

On another day you could say they're playing for their place but we know from Wigglesworth said that's not the case.

And you think that's true? I'd say 100% they are playing for a place in RWC 23, what Wigglesworth said is just sound bite for media.
Otherwise fringe/uncapped players would think "why am I bothering then".

This is definitely a trial, certainly if I was in team I'd be looking to make my mark and catch eye of coaches.

Not sure why he would lie? Would fit into the previous comments around experience being king. Unless someone has an absolute nightmare I'd say they know; and I do think it'll be that rather than a stormer that could sway. Possibly it's a call from this game on Blamire or Dan, Walker and George guaranteed to go.

Id like to know what Walker has done to make him guarenteed? Hes done no more than Blamire or Dan to be fair...

And he was clearly not trusted during the Six Nations. I would like to see all the contenders play well. Better for England. From what I have seen, and granted not too much of Walker, I would prefer Blamire, but admittedly from a smaller sample size.

Mr Bounce wrote:I think Walker is simply a Borthwick favourite.

I kind of like the fact that both England and Wales are playing experimental sides. And that Ben Youngs is not playing.

He is being saved to start the Argentina match  

Mr Bounce wrote:I think Walker is simply a Borthwick favourite.

I kind of like the fact that both England and Wales are playing experimental sides. And that Ben Youngs is not playing.

A 'favourite' that got a whole 28 mins over all five games in the 6N.

He's a solid set piece hooker than can do a bit in the loose. Borthwick wants a solid base to work from so those set piece attributes are going to be popular.

Blamire offers way more impact around the park but this lineout work won't be popular with Borthwick. I'd imagine having him in camp for so long will have been a great chance for Borthwick to really focus on that area of his game.

I think the problem when you play the big boys is that the guys who aren't good at the set piece get found out.  So whilst the likes of Blamire, Dan and Rodd are good in the loose, if you can't scrummage you are in trouble.  I don't think many people knock Mako's work around the park, it is primarily his inability to scrummage which brings him so much abuse.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I think Walker is simply a Borthwick favourite.

I kind of like the fact that both England and Wales are playing experimental sides. And that Ben Youngs is not playing.

A 'favourite' that got a whole 28 mins over all five games in the 6N.

He's a solid set piece hooker than can do a bit in the loose. Borthwick wants a solid base to work from so those set piece attributes are going to be popular.

Blamire offers way more impact around the park but this lineout work won't be popular with Borthwick. I'd imagine having him in camp for so long will have been a great chance for Borthwick to really focus on that area of his game.

Jamie's lineouts arent the issue they were...very much like LCD did, hes improved.

nlpnlp wrote:I think the problem when you play the big boys is that the guys who aren't good at the set piece get found out.  So whilst the likes of Blamire, Dan and Rodd are good in the loose, if you can't scrummage you are in trouble.  I don't think many people knock Mako's work around the park, it is primarily his inability to scrummage which brings him so much abuse.

I don't think scrum is a problem for Blamire. Lineout is though.

nlpnlp wrote:I think the problem when you play the big boys is that the guys who aren't good at the set piece get found out.  So whilst the likes of Blamire, Dan and Rodd are good in the loose, if you can't scrummage you are in trouble.  I don't think many people knock Mako's work around the park, it is primarily his inability to scrummage which brings him so much abuse.

Are you saying Blamire cant scrummage??

formerly known as Sam wrote:

nlpnlp wrote:I think the problem when you play the big boys is that the guys who aren't good at the set piece get found out.  So whilst the likes of Blamire, Dan and Rodd are good in the loose, if you can't scrummage you are in trouble.  I don't think many people knock Mako's work around the park, it is primarily his inability to scrummage which brings him so much abuse.

I don't think scrum is a problem for Blamire. Lineout is though.

Not now.

Blamire's setpiece was impressive in his England appearances. I was personally a bit surprised he didn't get more appearances even when both LCD and George were both available. Didn't seem any reason to ignore him. As it is I do think Borthwick will be picking from him or Dan.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blamire's setpiece was impressive in his England appearances. I was personally a bit surprised he didn't get more appearances even when both LCD and George were both available. Didn't seem any reason to ignore him. As it is I do think Borthwick will be picking from him or Dan.

If Jamie is sent home ill be supporting Chile in the world cup.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Blamire's setpiece was impressive in his England appearances. I was personally a bit surprised he didn't get more appearances even when both LCD and George were both available. Didn't seem any reason to ignore him. As it is I do think Borthwick will be picking from him or Dan.

If Jamie is sent home ill be supporting Chile in the world cup.

Dan's a Saracen though and has experience of a big final. So.

So Walker goes home

Not with Borthwick picking he doesn't.

I think it is a trial, but not necessarily for players so much as a style of play. That has the potential to be a very exciting side, with some real pace and attacking flair.

If the side doesn't deliver, I could see Borthwick reverting to a more conservative gameplan, but if it works I would expect subsequent warm up games to continue in the same vein regardless of personnel.

If Wigglesworth was playing a straight bat, you'd expect the players to be dropped to be the ones who aren't playing unless there's an injury or someone has a terrible game, but who knows?

From inside the falcons leadership group....about Jamie

"He's worked on his throwing more than I've ever seen anyone work on his throwing, and he's now up there with the best."

And one thing we can do at KP is produce hookers...

There are several players in that 23 I can be seeing being in competition for tight selection calls for the 33-man squad.

Porter vs Marchant vs Cokanasiga
Blamire vs Dan
Pearson vs Dombrandt vs T Willis
Ribbans vs Martin vs Hill

If any of the below missed out the 33-man squad I'd be surprised.

1.Genge, Marler, Vunipola
2.George
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4.Itoje
5.Chessum
6.Lawes, Ludlam
7.Curry, J Willis
8.Vunipola

9.JvP, Youngs, Care
10.Farrell, Ford, Smith

11.Arundell, Daly
12.Tuilagi
13.Lawrence, Slade
14.Watson
15.Steward, Malins

In the forwards I'd guess that leaves:

2 x hooker - Walker does feel the most likely of the 3 reserves to make it
2 x locks - I think 2 of the locks from Saturday's 23 will make the plane
1 x back row - Can Pearson force his way in or will they take a second specialist 8?

In the backs, if we presume they lose an outside back to make room for 3 fly-halves, there would be one more spot available:

1 x centre or wing - Porter covers 12/13, Marchant 13/wing, whilst Cokanasiga offers power

king_carlos wrote:There are several players in that 23 I can be seeing being in competition for tight selection calls for the 33-man squad.

Porter vs Marchant vs Cokanasiga
Blamire vs Dan
Pearson vs Dombrandt vs T Willis
Ribbans vs Martin vs Hill

If any of the below missed out the 33-man squad I'd be surprised.

1.Genge, Marler, Vunipola
2.George
3.Sinckler, Stuart, Cole
4.Itoje
5.Chessum
6.Lawes, Ludlam
7.Curry, J Willis
8.Vunipola

9.JvP, Youngs, Care
10.Farrell, Ford, Smith

11.Arundell, Daly
12.Tuilagi
13.Lawrence, Slade
14.Watson
15.Steward, Malins

In the forwards I'd guess that leaves:

2 x hooker - Walker does feel the most likely of the 3 reserves to make it
2 x locks - I think 2 of the locks from Saturday's 23 will make the plane
1 x back row - Can Pearson force his way in or will they take a second specialist 8?

In the backs, if we presume they lose an outside back to make room for 3 fly-halves, there would be one more spot available:

1 x centre or wing - Porter covers 12/13, Marchant 13/wing, whilst Cokanasiga offers power

Nice. That's really useful when thinking on the places vs specialists vs utilities.

Poorfour wrote:I think it is a trial, but not necessarily for players so much as a style of play. That has the potential to be a very exciting side, with some real pace and attacking flair.

If the side doesn't deliver, I could see Borthwick reverting to a more conservative gameplan, but if it works I would expect subsequent warm up games to continue in the same vein regardless of personnel.

If Wigglesworth was playing a straight bat, you'd expect the players to be dropped to be the ones who aren't playing unless there's an injury or someone has a terrible game, but who knows?

Of course this match is a trial. If we take Wigglesworth at face value, it means they will be picking practice players - players who work well with other players and in a system - in training. I think the sports world is full of very experienced coaches getting taken in by and picking players who deliver lights out in training, but not so much in real games. This is why sports have pre-season games. I am probably homing in on a single thing Wiggly said, but it annoying to hear coach-speak gobbledygook.

Is Mako available? Last I'd heard he'd gone back to Saracens.

Mr Bounce wrote:Is Mako available? Last I'd heard he'd gone back to Saracens.

He must have been attempting to scrummage when he went backwards to Saracens.

doctor_grey wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Is Mako available? Last I'd heard he'd gone back to Saracens.

He must have been attempting to scrummage when he went backwards to Saracens.  

Not happy with the Dombrandt selection at all, but for me he should not be in the training squad over Mercer. We saw in the 6Ns that he can perform well against the lesser teams as he did against Wales in Cardiff but against France he went seriously awol. He can bounce back pist the RWC but this is a wasted opportunity. Willis should be playing.

Dombrant got handed off by a Scots winger - OK it was the behemoth not the wee man :-)

No big deal getting handed off by vdm. Bit like when beshocked banged on about may being initially slower than that Fijian scrum half.

Willis is more suited to the style Borthwick will play in the world cup. This may be slightly looser so that he can say the best style for us is a slow drudge up the middle.

I do like the look of the pack on the whole, everyone outside Smith I'm not so sure on.

From reading Borthwicks latest it backs what Wigglesworth said, he knows who he wants to take already. Doubt this match will change much in his thinking.

hugehandoff wrote:Not happy with the Dombrandt selection at all, but for me he should not be in the training squad over Mercer. We saw in the 6Ns that he can perform well against the lesser teams as he did against Wales in Cardiff but against France he went seriously awol. He can bounce back pist the RWC but this is a wasted opportunity. Willis should be playing.

The whole team went AWOL!!

Murley came back in as Arundell has picked up a hamstring injury casting doubt over his chances of making the final squad.

Curry out for a week or so after twisting an ankle.

That's a blow if he doesn't make it. Arundell is the 1 player we really have with a tonne of flair. That makes it pretty nailed on that both Malins and Cokanasiga make the final then.

That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

So much for all the Arundells squatting houses etc in training....

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Which would be OK but Murley isn't in next in line and very unlikely to be picked.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Name the back 3 player who is in squad that will do wonders? May? Malins?

Personally I'd have Arundell over either of those. And Malins IS a try scorer.

Not at international level as yet mm.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not at international level as yet mm.

Who Malins? No but he has been for Sarries but anyway my point is I'd have Arundell instead.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Which would be OK but Murley isn't in next in line and very unlikely to be picked.

YOu dont know that...

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Name the back 3 player who is in squad that will do wonders? May? Malins?

Personally I'd have Arundell over either of those. And Malins IS a try scorer.

I didnt mean back 3 i meant in the squad. Watson can work wonders anyway...and if Cokasaniga is back in prime fitness and form then he can do damage in other ways.

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Name the back 3 player who is in squad that will do wonders? May? Malins?

Personally I'd have Arundell over either of those. And Malins IS a try scorer.

Hes a try scorer at prem level but yet to transfer that to International level....and im not sure he will.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Name the back 3 player who is in squad that will do wonders? May? Malins?

Personally I'd have Arundell over either of those. And Malins IS a try scorer.

Hes a try scorer at prem level but yet to transfer that to International level....and im not sure he will.

Have we had a regular try machine since Johnny May in the build up to the last world cup though?

Nope. Our wingers are there for kick chases and kicking rather than finishing chances.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Which would be OK but Murley isn't in next in line and very unlikely to be picked.

YOu dont know that...

Just seems a lot more likely given he's been called up as injury cover but that there's still the wingers preferred to him in the squad.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Name the back 3 player who is in squad that will do wonders? May? Malins?

Personally I'd have Arundell over either of those. And Malins IS a try scorer.

Hes a try scorer at prem level but yet to transfer that to International level....and im not sure he will.

Have we had a regular try machine since Johnny May in the build up to the last world cup though?

I guess that is what people are hoping Arundell becomes.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:That is really bad news about Arundell, as you say the one real X factor player in squad.

No not really. Theres still a few in there who can do wonders...and to be honest im a big fan of Murley...hes an efficient try scorer....something Arundell isnt...yet

Name the back 3 player who is in squad that will do wonders? May? Malins?

Personally I'd have Arundell over either of those. And Malins IS a try scorer.

Hes a try scorer at prem level but yet to transfer that to International level....and im not sure he will.

Have we had a regular try machine since Johnny May in the build up to the last world cup though?

I guess that is what people are hoping Arundell becomes.

Hes not a try scorer at prem level yet....Murley is...

I wonder if Falcons signing a hooker for a season means we will be short of Blamire....?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Nope. Our wingers are there for kick chases and kicking rather than finishing chances.

We did plenty of that before the world cup as well.

Hes not a try scorer at prem level yet....Murley is...

I almost get impression you are being awkward on purpose, maybe I got it wrong.

I'm not arguing FOR Malins, in fact several times I have said I'd take Arundell over him or May.
Malins however, can and does score tries. He got 9 Prem tries to Murley 15. Not sure on stats in other comps.