Wales International Rugby Summer 23 onwards.

First topic message reminder :

As the pages were going over 20 shortly, I’ve had to start a new thread. This is still the place to discuss the U20s, the women and everything else internationally. Updated RWC 23 squad below.

Forwards (25)

Corey Domachowski (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Kemsley Mathias (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nicky Smith (Ospreys / Gweilch– 42 caps)
Gareth Thomas (Ospreys /Gweilch – 21 caps)
Elliot Dee (Dragons / Dregiau– 41 caps)
Ryan Elias (Scarlets – 33 caps)
Dewi Lake (Ospreys / Gweilch – 8 caps)
Sam Parry (Ospreys / Gweilch – 5 caps)
Keiron Assiratti (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Tomas Francis (Ospreys / Gweilch – 71 caps)
Dillon Lewis (Harlequins – 50 caps)
Henry Thomas (Montpellier – uncapped)
Adam Beard (Ospreys / Gweilch– 46 caps)
Ben Carter (Dragons / Dregiau– 9 caps)
Rhys Davies (Ospreys / Gweilch – 2 caps)
Dafydd Jenkins (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 6 caps)
Will Rowlands (Dragons / Dregiau – 23 caps)
Christ Tshiunza (Exeter Chiefs / Caerwysg – 5 caps)
Teddy Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd– uncapped)
Taine Basham (Dragons / Dregiau – 11 caps)
Taulupe Faletau (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 100 caps)
Dan Lydiate (Dragons / Dregiau – 68 caps)
Jac Morgan (Ospreys / Gweilch – 9 caps)
Tommy Reffell (Leicester Tigers / Caerlŷr– 9 caps)
Aaron Wainwright (Dragons / Dregiau – 37 caps)

Backs (22)

Gareth Davies (Scarlets – 67 caps)
Kieran Hardy (Scarlets – 17 caps)
Tomos Williams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 45 caps)
Gareth Anscombe (unattached – 35 caps)
Dan Biggar (Toulon – 107 caps)
Sam Costelow (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Owen Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – 7 caps)
Mason Grady (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 2 caps)
Max Llewellyn (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw – uncapped)
George North (Ospreys / Gweilch – 113 caps)
Joe Roberts (Scarlets – uncapped)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens – 27 caps)
Johnny Williams (Scarlets – 5 caps)
Keiran Williams (Ospreys / Gweilch – uncapped)
Josh Adams (Cardiff Rugby / Caerdydd – 49 caps)
Alex Cuthbert (Ospreys / Gweilch – 57 caps)
Rio Dyer (Dragons / Dregiau – 7 caps)
Cai Evans (Ospreys/ Gweilch – uncapped)
Leigh Halfpenny (unattached – 99 caps)
Louis Rees-Zammit (Gloucester Rugby / Caerloyw– 25 caps)
Tom Rogers (Scarlets – 2 caps)
Liam Williams (Cardiff Rugby/ Caerdydd – 84 caps)

So who’s that out in France? Henry Thomas? I heard he’s not been doing that well out there (think a poster on here said so, but have not heard much myself). And Tomas Francis? Something at the back of my mind says he made himself unavailable for this 6N. Or did I make that up?! Did Gatland just not pick him???

I am not sure on Francis actually. I did mean those two though.

Francis said he wouldn't be available for this 6N, but from them onwards I think yes. Hopefully his team also go up into the Top 14. If he picks Henry Thomas then he's shooting himself in the foot again (like with Dillon Lewis who should have been in from the start). I can picture the additional TH being from Cardiff of Scarlets, they wouldn't have needed much game time to be in.

As expected it's someone unworthy from Scarlets (not Cardiff). Clueless and finished Gatland with Howley in tow calls up O'Connor. It should be noted that O'Connor was in great form against Munster, getting bested in the scrum in another game of men v boys. Scarlets demolished again of course but keep getting players into the squad, whilst Ospreys are continually ignored. I'm not an Ospreys fan but come on, even I can see it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/68336427

The two ospreys props yesterday were very good

carpet baboon wrote:The two ospreys props yesterday were very good

Yep, they have been consistently good for a few seasons. Scarlets' scrum is just dross.

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The two ospreys props yesterday were very good

Yep, they have been consistently good for a few seasons. Scarlets' scrum is just dross.

When isn't Nicky Smith good? Why doesn't Gatland like him?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The two ospreys props yesterday were very good

Yep, they have been consistently good for a few seasons. Scarlets' scrum is just dross.

When isn't Nicky Smith good? Why doesn't Gatland like him?

He's been injured a couple times around the date of selection. It's not like a player being injured stops Gatland from picking them though, so it's a hard one to figure out. I think the on-going selections and the fact he's just doubling down on it shows that he's potentially going senile.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The two ospreys props yesterday were very good

Yep, they have been consistently good for a few seasons. Scarlets' scrum is just dross.

When isn't Nicky Smith good? Why doesn't Gatland like him?

No one knows, probably technically the best LH Wales have got....

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Gatland has spoken to him this season & he has said he has secured a move away from Wales so Gatland thinks it's pointless.

Squad out a couple of days early & as expected really.

Going to find it hard going.

Aren’t there rumours that Gatland or Humphreys have fallen out with him, or something? Seems strange how he isn’t called up. I would probably have called up Botha over O’Connor too.

Welsh squad as expected overall. I would pick Rowlands over Beard, but I knew Gatland wouldn’t. Martin in wasn’t necessarily expected, but we are definitely up against it.

RiscaGame wrote:Aren’t there rumours that Gatland or Humphreys have fallen out with him, or something? Seems strange how he isn’t called up. I would probably have called up Botha over O’Connor too.

Welsh squad as expected overall. I would pick Rowlands over Beard, but I knew Gatland wouldn’t. Martin in wasn’t necessarily expected, but we are definitely up against it.

I would too but I can't see O'Connor getting anywhere near the 23, he's there so the coaches can get a look at him.

I would have gone Rowlands too but we all know Gatland loves Beard for his on field leadership.

Oakdene wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:The two ospreys props yesterday were very good

Yep, they have been consistently good for a few seasons. Scarlets' scrum is just dross.

When isn't Nicky Smith good? Why doesn't Gatland like him?

No one knows, probably technically the best LH Wales have got....

The only thing I can think of is that maybe Gatland has spoken to him this season & he has said he has secured a move away from Wales so Gatland thinks it's pointless.

He's well over the cap limit for Gatland's law though isn't he? Rowlands doesn't play in Wales anymore and he's involved, ditto Reffell, Jenkins, Tompkins etc.

Here it is to save leaving the page:

Wales: Winnett; Adams, North, Tompkins, Dyer; Costelow, Tomos Williams; G Thomas, Dee, Assiratti, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Elias, Domachoswki, D Lewis, Rowlands, M Martin, Hardy, I Lloyd, Grady.

It's a big call on Costelow. Is he seen as a steadier pair of hands, somehow? Seems/looks really shaky to me. Thought Lloyd had been looking good, even with a little hesitation in front of his own posts against England leading to a try (I think?).

Apart from that I think the backs pick themselves. Adams is perhaps lucky, but the more experienced option. Might have given Grady a go but can understand why Adams is in given the opposition. Just don't think he's quite fit or in form lately.

Forwards - as others have said I too would have gone for Rowlands from the start. Beard must be one of those 'unseen work' players as I don't see what he does to be honest! The backrow is going to be up against it. Just hoping it falls well for Reffell to get in there and spoil again. He's been magnificent these first 2 weeks and is finally showing his international promise after a bit of a slow start at this level (when compared to his awesome club form over the past few seasons). I worry after seeing the big France backrow get completely nullified against Ireland. Ours are smaller and less powerful. Martin to add a bit of ballast from the bench though I suppose, but he's very raw and untested at this level. Playing well for Cardiff though and is a carrying option.

What do we think of Alex Mann? I think he's actually done alright and far better than I expected, I just don't see him as being good enough for this level. He was meh at U20s but I remember him being so overhyped. James Botham I thought was shocking against Scotland and he wasn't good when Pivac picked him either. I think Thomas Young is a fantastic player, but he's being overlooked again. The Ireland back-row is good at everything but they'll be bigger than ours, so I can Wales getting physically dominated. If we stop them from scoring 60 points we'd have done fairly well...

Yeah there's definitely something up with Young, he should be in the squad without a shadow of a doubt. Mann seems to be going ok & I am pleased for him but this weekend will show us where he really is - that said 2 games, 2 tries.

I think the danger with Young is that he's another smallish 'traditional' openside 7. No doubt playing very well and worthy of a place in the squad on form. But I agreed with previous comments that Wales need to move away from having a back row consisting of 2 or 3 7s. Reffell is the man in possession at the moment. Does Young offer much different from him? I think they're quite similar. Would we want to see them on the pitch together? Is Young good enough/big enough to play international 6 or 8 (I'm sure he could do a shift there at club level, but international is another thing altogether)?. Yes, on form he should be in over Basham. But are we saying that Young is just a backup option?

Looking to the future too - what about when Jac Morgan comes back? Would we ever need Young, Reffell and Morgan in the same squad? Morgan is injured so it's a moot point currently, and maybe Young should be in as a backup 7 (drop Basham). But unfortunately we seem pretty stocked for 7s.

In other news, and I bet a million people saw this coming, Howley is seemingly not that involved with the player pathways (I thank God for that), but regrettably seems to be back as Gatland's right hand man. His new position title; Snake in the Grass. I have a feeling that King will become undermined if he isn't already, I don't see this ending well at all.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:I think the danger with Young is that he's another smallish 'traditional' openside 7.  No doubt playing very well and worthy of a place in the squad on form.  But I agreed with previous comments that Wales need to move away from having a back row consisting of 2 or 3 7s.  Reffell is the man in possession at the moment.  Does Young offer much different from him?   I think they're quite similar.  Would we want to see them on the pitch together?  Is Young good enough/big enough to play international 6 or 8 (I'm sure he could do a shift there at club level, but international is another thing altogether)?.  Yes, on form he should be in over Basham.  But are we saying that Young is just a backup option?

Looking to the future too - what about when Jac Morgan comes back?  Would we ever need Young, Reffell and Morgan in the same squad?  Morgan is injured so it's a moot point currently, and maybe Young should be in as a backup 7 (drop Basham).  But unfortunately we seem pretty stocked for 7s.  

Young looks a bit heavier than Mann, Botham and Basham tbh, if not then around the same weight. On form Young is better than all 3 and probably always had a higher ceiling than his Cardiff clubmates.

Jac Morgan might not be the captain now and we don't need to usher him in. If he returns to how he was playing it'll be interesting to see the calls made.

Team is out:

Wales: Winnett; Adams, Roberts, Watkin, Dyer; Costelow, Tomos Williams; Thomas, Elias, Assiratti, Rowlands, Beard, D Jenkins (capt), Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: Dee, Domachowski, Lewis, Martin, Mann, G Davies, Lloyd, Grady.

Fans lost patience with Elias a long time ago. I gave him another chance but since the Arg game he can't throw well enough, again. Gats must be senile. Watkin is the most garbage centre in Wales.

No news on North being injured, so we're left wondering if he is just dropped for whatever reason? Be funny if it's the latter, he always plays well against France and still happens to be one of the top players.

Surprised at the centres.  I thought we were building a good bit of momentum coming in to this game.  Would have kept them the same for continuity as I fancy snatching a victory against France.  Switching up the centres for much more inexperienced ones (Roberts), and against the likes of Fickou, is asking for trouble.  Didn't think North and Tompkins had done much wrong?

Good to see Rowlands in.  Still not convinced on Beard but others on Twitter, etc. seem to say he's good at the unseen stuff.  Jenkins into the backrow.  Mann is unlucky to be dropped to the bench.

Elias has to be the luckiest player alive!  Back in at hooker when he can't hit a barn door.  The bench doesn't scream 'finishers' or 'bomb squad'.  Not sure who could have come in though, but that bench is not oozing top class international quality.

I’m sure Gatland talks about combinations a lot, so to rip up the centres is nuts. Especially to put an inexperienced 12 next to Costellow.

I am more confident in Elias, now he has more jumpers to miss. But it’s very strange. I feel for Dee too, when he doesn’t deserve to get his 50th cap from the bench.

I know he's trying to develop experience and depth at the start of the next world cup cycle, but dropping players who are performing well seems daft. In the case of the next centre partnership, I would have started with North and Tompkins and had Roberts on the bench perhaps. Introduce him at some point if the game's going well. Develop experience that way. Chucking him in with an underwhelming Watkin, and outside a 10 who is still very green, and against France who are still very good despite their shaky last few games.......not sure how fair it is on the player to be honest.

Watkin has lots of experience now, he's just not any good. Some folk will still double down on him though. I think Lloyd has been the better 10 but he seems fixated on Costelow, a bit like the way Dai Flan is fixated on men who are 6'6.

I mean Elias is a very lucky bloke....I was really happy when I saw Joe in the centre, until I read who was starting at 12.

I wonder if Gareth Davies will make an impact off the bench.

France
15 Leo Barre, 14 Damian Penaud, 13 Gael Fickou, 12 Nicolas Depoortere, 11 Louis Bielle-Biarrey, 10 Thomas Ramos, 9 Nolann Le Garrec
8 Gregory Alldritt (c), 7 Charles Ollivon, 6 Francois Cros, 5 Emmanuel Meafou, 4 Thibaud Flament, 3 Uini Atonio, 2 Julien Marchand, 1 Cyril Baille

Replacements: 16 Peato Mauvaka, 17 Sébastien Taofifénua, 18 Georges-Henri Colombe, 19 Romain Taofifenua, 20 Alexandre Roumat, 21 Paul Boudehent, 22 Maxime Lucu, 23 Yoram Moefana

That's the rumoured team I've seen reported for France.

Sheer bulk on the replacement front row and second row, then Alexandre Roumat is just about the rangiest back row in the modern game. I like the contrast. Boudehent makes up a 6-2 split. With Antonio and Meafou in the starting pack, that isn't small either. Galthie is backing power in the forwards it looks like.

I'd presume that Colombe is there to do a more similar role that Demba Bamba and latterly Sipili Falatea did as bench THs earlier in the last RWC cycle. Bamba would come on to carry hard and target any breakdown he could as a jackal. Whilst Falatea was a massive carrier for the last quarter. Once both were injured, they shifted to the scrummaging prowess of Aldegheri as Antonio's substitute. Colombe is gigantic, so more in the bracket of the earlier tactics.

Flament returning is massive for France if he is fit. He was magnificent last year.

Leo Barre is another French fullback that also plays 10. He's highly rated. Whilst Depoortere is an U20s star who has really impressed for Bordeaux.

France have been poor and are missing key players but there is a lot of talent in that potential 23.

Ah, I thought I read that Roberts was starting 12 at first, so not an inexperienced 12 next to him. In some ways, more solid. I just still think it’s mad to rip up the centres. Watkin might be a steadier bet next to Costellow, but I like what Tompkins brings to us in attack with his delayed passes etc.

I know I can’t really judge it until after Sunday, but I did think we could’ve had a go at France a bit at home and now I’m feeling more doubtful after this team announcement.

Good feature from the Squidgemeister and a good introduction for the non-Welsh observers:

K_C you were spot on with the French team selections. Allows Galthie to start one wrecking ball and one athlete at lock and then replace like for like in the final third. Usual 6 2 bench split.
This strategy worked so well up until Willemse had to pull out of the WC squad. Allows France to make hard yards around the ruck to suck in defenders. Le Garrec certainly has the pace to exploit any gaps that appear.
Interesting to see Depoortere at 12 as he normally plays 13 outside Moefana for Bordeaux. Perhaps we will see that later on?

Barre has impressed for Stade at 15 and brings a lot of pace and a huge boot. A tall rangy full back who is good under a high ball, of which he will see many.
This potentially could be the quickest back line in French history: le Garrec, Depoortere, Bielle-Biarrey, Penaud and Barre are all seriously quick. Fickou and Ramos aren't far behind.

Toulouse lock pairing with Toulouse hookers should make a difference to the quality of lineout ball. Colombe has been earmarked as the natural successor to Atonio, does well as the big man's backup at La Rochelle. Can he step up for France?
Should be a fascinating game.

king_carlos wrote:France
15 Leo Barre, 14 Damian Penaud, 13 Gael Fickou, 12 Nicolas Depoortere, 11 Louis Bielle-Biarrey, 10 Thomas Ramos, 9 Nolann Le Garrec
8 Gregory Alldritt (c), 7 Charles Ollivon, 6 Francois Cros, 5 Emmanuel Meafou, 4 Thibaud Flament, 3 Uini Atonio, 2 Julien Marchand, 1 Cyril Baille

Replacements: 16 Peato Mauvaka, 17 Sébastien Taofifénua, 18 Georges-Henri Colombe, 19 Romain Taofifenua, 20 Alexandre Roumat, 21 Paul Boudehent, 22 Maxime Lucu, 23 Yoram Moefana

That's the rumoured team I've seen reported for France.

Sheer bulk on the replacement front row and second row, then Alexandre Roumat is just about the rangiest back row in the modern game. I like the contrast. Boudehent makes up a 6-2 split. With Antonio and Meafou in the starting pack, that isn't small either. Galthie is backing power in the forwards it looks like.

I'd presume that Colombe is there to do a more similar role that Demba Bamba and latterly Sipili Falatea did as bench THs earlier in the last RWC cycle. Bamba would come on to carry hard and target any breakdown he could as a jackal. Whilst Falatea was a massive carrier for the last quarter. Once both were injured, they shifted to the scrummaging prowess of Aldegheri as Antonio's substitute. Colombe is gigantic, so more in the bracket of the earlier tactics.

Flament returning is massive for France if he is fit. He was magnificent last year.

Leo Barre is another French fullback that also plays 10. He's highly rated. Whilst Depoortere is an U20s star who has really impressed for Bordeaux.

France have been poor and are missing key players but there is a lot of talent in that potential 23.

George Carlin wrote:Good feature from the Squidgemeister and a good introduction for the non-Welsh observers:

Christ, I was out of breath watching that!

A very long analysis video. Enjoyable to watch though. But I think it just confirms what we (in Wales) all know - we don’t know who the best 10 is and we won’t know for some time until these new 10s have enough games under the belt to allow proper evaluation of their potential to be the No.1 no.10 for Wales going forward. The video probably also highlights Wales’ failure to succession-plan for the retirement/injury/exodus of the established 10s, which is something we’ve talked about in other positions in the squad too (e.g. no8, locks, fullback, etc.). I get it from a coaching point of view though. You’re judged on results, and taking off a game winner like Biggar and risk a player deemed to be not as good, in the interest of big match experience, is really hard to justify. And very risky. But without that we’re in a position of chucking in loads of new guys all at once.

France by 50.

Could be 50 all at this point ....

I don't think Luke Pearce wrapped there

Another weekend of Gatland cheapening the jersey. He’ll continue to pick up his salary. Wales losing to Italy, then SA, and then Aus twice down under is very real.

And losing the bonus Queensland game too (or whatever it is). What a treat for the players, who are being treated like nothing by the WRU.

I was at the game so haven't seen the game in full on TV with the benefit of all the angles and commentary, etc. But I had sh*t seats so watched most of it on the stadium screen From what I saw:

The positives:
We managed to beat the French defence a lot. 3 times against a team of their calibre, with the young team we put out, is not to be sniffed at. Could have got 4 perhaps.
We seemed to play quite flat at times which is high risk (intercepts, knock ons, etc.) with Costelow seeming to be standing high up in attack. That was OK, and he seemed to play well doing that, but we are not quite slick or accurate enough to carry it out over multiple phases. Worked well for the Roberts try with everyone flat and some quick offloads.
Thought Tomos Williams was good too.
I liked to variety we tried at times. Against Ireland I was screaming for us to try a chip over the top or a kick to the corners when we were just doing wave after wave of forward drives into a solid green wall. Wasn't always well thought out though (see below).

The negatives:
If the French defence was a bit leaky, ours was like the bathtub with the the bottom blown out! The French seemed to be able to go from their own 22 to ours in a flash. Yet it would take us ages to get to the same field position in return.
Kicking - as above, I liked the attempt at variety. But some shockers. E.g. Costelow I think trying a cross field kick for a winger in our own half. Far too risky. We lost it and ended up conceding an attacking lineout. I like those when they're close to the oppo try line, but in our own half a 50/50 cross-field kick is far too risky.
Scrum - munched in the first scrum for a penalty. I think it improved a bit but was rarely a match for the French and a real Achilles heal. We simply have to develop better scrummaging to compete as it is such an important platform (always has been I suppose).
Subs - as has been written in the press, this is where we've struggled this tournament. In the opener against Scotland it was our starters that were often poor, and the subs turned the game. Here, the subs (some of those starters from Scotland) such as Gareth Davies were poor. Davies with a really poor box kick charged down for a try. The heads dropped there and the French raced away.

Any other positives or negatives?

I've seen barely a positive all tournament. Some people want to gloss it up and say it's a young team, etc. (it's almost as if nobody else has young and inexperienced players). The masses are absolutely convinced they'll come good and start beating everyone, and then there is also the thinking that 4 years of losing is good prep for the World Cup. Goes to show how many dull people there are in Wales. Gatland's selections costing us over and over again. Whilst a new coach coming in would struggle, he (Gats) has still got to go and it would at least be cheaper. His ideas are stale and he won't change. The fact that he still thinks he can pick semi-pro standard players and turn them good shows either arrogance or stupidity (or a bit of both). Wales' age grade teams aren't good either so we'll need to source WQ players from elsewhere until that gets sorted, if it ever gets sorted. The U20s has been a playground for the WRUs mates for almost 10 years, each one of them failed and were then shipped off to another job!

I think it's not news to say that at the moment the Wales team simply isn't very good. Also, as tends to happen with teams in transition, there seems to be a lack of clarity over the best players and combinations.
Even so, they were well in the game up to 60 minutes, and it was mainly the relative qualities off the bench plus Wales trying to force situations late on that made the result look so one sided. Definitely some not very smart play from both some experienced players (SH charge down) and less experienced players (the out half cross kick highlighted above). Some system errors (where were the blockers?) and some bad decision making and execution

How quickly they can rebuild, and how effectively is a real unknown. But of course England in 97/98 were abject and were the best team in the world by 2000, so if the players are there and good enough it can turn around quite fast.

Maybe it's a curveball but I'll do it anyway - there are players who can make a difference. Nicky Smith, Sam Parry, and James Fender when he is available. Jake Ball needs a re-call, have him teach the other forwards how to hurt people. For all the apparent short-comings I would still have Rhys Carre in the squad who I believe is a unique player we can ill afford to ignore. It is telling that two coaches said he was unfit but he keeps playing well for Cardiff - it's not like Antonio is known for fitness now is it! Francis and Botha I would have back in, the third TH can be the development option - Griffin again maybe, he's a big lad but being third choice at Bath won't be helpful. I like Assiratti but this 6N is proof that he probably isn't international standard. Without these guys then the squad continues to look like wooden spooners (I said as much when the squad was selected).

Might Anscombe be coming back in? Patchell too, given his ability to play full-back.

Wales U18s beat Ireland U18s, away in Dublin too. Not much about it in the news. But a cracking result. Hopefully signs that there's some future prospects coming through. At least until the opposition conditioning guys get their hands on their youngsters and turn them into monsters, and our guys turn ours into average sized humans!

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Wales U18s beat Ireland U18s, away in Dublin too.  Not much about it in the news.  But a cracking result.  Hopefully signs that there's some future prospects coming through.  At least until the opposition conditioning guys get their hands on their youngsters and turn them into monsters, and our guys turn ours into average sized humans!  

Pretty sure you beat us last year too.

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Wales U18s beat Ireland U18s, away in Dublin too.  Not much about it in the news.  But a cracking result.  Hopefully signs that there's some future prospects coming through.  At least until the opposition conditioning guys get their hands on their youngsters and turn them into monsters, and our guys turn ours into average sized humans!  

It was a warm-up game. I'm not turning my nose up at it, but the U18s festival is upcoming and Wales are playing England, France and Portugal. I guess that is when we will really see how good they are.

Team v Italy is out:

Wales: Winnett; Adams, North, Tompkins, Dyer; Costelow, T Williams; Thomas, Dee, Lewis, Jenkins (capt), Beard, Mann, Reffell, Wainwright.

Replacements: E Lloyd, Mathias, H O'Connor, Rowlands, Martin, Hardy, I Lloyd, Grady.

Dropped Rowlands to the bench? Thought he was decent v France. One of the top tacklers with Jenkins I thought?

I would have dropped Adams for Grady.

Glad to see Tomkins and North back. I like that combo and despite his critics North does have a knack for scoring tries.

North retiring from International Rugby, after this game.

Gatland's team is a little all over the place again.

Is he really? A big shame that

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Dropped Rowlands to the bench? Thought he was decent v France. One of the top tacklers with Jenkins I thought?

I would have dropped Adams for Grady.

Glad to see Tomkins and North back. I like that combo and despite his critics North does have a knack for scoring tries.

Those are all bad calls, but I think the worst call is the replacement front-row. The props have been dominated by weakened teams in the URC, whilst Lloyd has 2 minutes of pro rugby experience. Is Gatland trying to get himself sacked? Seems to be a thing where big wigs in the WRU get sacked and then receive a hefty 6 figure payout.

At this point, I'm also wondering if North was pushed into his decision to call it a day? A shame to go out like this, but he's been a fantastic player and ambassador for Wales.

mikey_dragon wrote:

TAFKA The Oracle wrote:Dropped Rowlands to the bench? Thought he was decent v France. One of the top tacklers with Jenkins I thought?

I would have dropped Adams for Grady.

Glad to see Tomkins and North back. I like that combo and despite his critics North does have a knack for scoring tries.

Those are all bad calls, but I think the worst call is the replacement front-row. The props have been dominated by weakened teams in the URC, whilst Lloyd has 2 minutes of pro rugby experience. Is Gatland trying to get himself sacked? Seems to be a thing where big wigs in the WRU get sacked and then receive a hefty 6 figure payout.

At this point, I'm also wondering if North was pushed into his decision to call it a day? A shame to go out like this, but he's been a fantastic player and ambassador for Wales.

Well, he has a hefty 6 year contract (4or 5 years left now I suppose). Would cost 4 or 5 x £600k to get rid of him. A nice payday for Gats if he can get it! I'm sure the WRU must have a performance related clause in there that means they can sack him without having to pay him off, right? Surely??! But if they just want to part ways then the WRU will have to pay him the remainder of this contract. Ouch!