England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

First topic message reminder :

Here we go again.....

Poorfour wrote:We really can't read too much into these warmup performances on that basis. Borthwick is clearly prepared to sacrifice the performance now for fitness when it the games actually matter.

Maybe so but after such a woeful game last week another loss this Saturday with what looks to be a much stronger and better side be a disaster. Morale in camp would sink to near all time low, fans will definitely not be happy etc. Team plays as bad and loses, can see team getting booed off pitch again.

Maybe Borthwick is doing a Jones and keeping it all for RWC but I think this is a must win for England.

mountain man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:We really can't read too much into these warmup performances on that basis. Borthwick is clearly prepared to sacrifice the performance now for fitness when it the games actually matter.

Maybe so but after such a woeful game last week another loss this Saturday with what looks to be a much stronger and better side be a disaster. Morale in camp would sink to near all time low, fans will definitely not be happy etc. Team plays as bad and loses, can see team getting booed off pitch again.

Maybe Borthwick is doing a Jones and keeping it all for RWC but I think this is a must win for England.

Without being funny, when organising world cup warm ups teams do tend to focus more on their home games - which is mutually beneficial. I can only guess, but from history and looking at selection, I'd imagine this represents something close to Borthwick's intentions for England come the world cup. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the Ireland game is approached more as a warm up with key players kept safely out of it. But I'm still not convinced it's a must win this weekend - it really wouldn't bode well, but after the world cup people are really only going to care how England did there (think back to 2007 when England looked poor going in, lost home warm up against France, nearly went out in the group stages - but somehow pulled it together, got to the final, and made a good go of it when they got there).

mountain man wrote:

Poorfour wrote:We really can't read too much into these warmup performances on that basis. Borthwick is clearly prepared to sacrifice the performance now for fitness when it the games actually matter.

Maybe so but after such a woeful game last week another loss this Saturday with what looks to be a much stronger and better side be a disaster. Morale in camp would sink to near all time low, fans will definitely not be happy etc. Team plays as bad and loses, can see team getting booed off pitch again.

Maybe Borthwick is doing a Jones and keeping it all for RWC but I think this is a must win for England.

I don't think morale in camp would sink. Those in camp are privy to the training load and the overall plan leading into the world cup. If the game doesn't go their way they'll know why.

We lost to Wales four years ago ahead of the world cup and it meant nothing.

The fans might not like it but it's effectively a pre season friendly. The ex pros will no doubt throw their toys out the pram and bemoan something or other but they know little more than we do as to what stage the squad are at and are just filling column inches.

A disaster would be if we get hammered in the opening game Vs the Pumas. That's the game that actually matters.

Maybe players in squad are all in for RWC and they've been told a loss doesn't matter, just get it right for RWC. Could well be case, we don't know.

However, I'd be surprised if players like Farrell, Itoje, George etc who have a must win mentality be happy to lose regardless of circumstances. And yes ex players etc will hammer them in media as will fans so if team plays badly and loses I'm not sure what positives can be taken out of that no matter what spin Borthwick and co put on it.

I agree, if England get to SF in RWC or incredibly and unlikely beyond that all will be forgotten but if they don't what then. A disaster build up followed by a grim RWC. Not sure anyone wants that.

On Eliot Daly he was always better on the wing than fullback. He's a good 13 too. If he has got his form back as some have suggested after a pretty good year with sarries then we may see the player that was trusted to be in the British and Irish lions test team.

On warmup matches I get a feeling that the team announced has been training together as a team for the world cup camps. I'm pretty sure looking at bib colours in their YouTube videos the back line all having the same colour bibs with the exception of marchant who was always in with Marcus Smith. Could be wrong but would make sense as SB has stated that players know the hierarchy for clarity.

Last thought centres around criticism of SB and selection but if we step back a bit and calm down he has picked on form players and dropped out of form players. There are perhaps two exceptions in Zac mercer and murley. Murley was unlucky in the fact that flexibility is key in world cups and SB has rolled the dice on Billy and knows Zac mercer wouldn't fit his pack in a horse's for courses no nonsense approach. He has been quoted as saying winning teams who have powerful ball carriers are there at end of the tournament so has sacrificed guile for brute strength. So in short he has squad that can play his brand but the questions remain about defence and attacking shape.

Earl will have a game tomorrow that will force Tom Curry to be concerned.
George Martin (with a proper pack around him) will have a physical blinder....
Arundel will go off with a hamstring injury
Daly will have a decent game...score a try
Farrell will have a great game but be slated.

A disaster would be if we get hammered in the opening game Vs the Pumas. That's the game that actually matters.

Losing badly to Arg wouldn't be good but wouldn't be a disaster seeing as Eng can still qualify as long as win other games which they "should" do.

And seeing as it's all about the RWC then progressing through that is all that matters isn't it?

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Quite concerning our tactics in the last two games versus England, the tactic seemed to be kick to Steward but don't put him under any pressure... I think this team will be better at utilising their possession and territory.

There was a nice bit on twitter can't remember who who picked out fake box kicks to Steward and then picking out Cokanasiga by spinning the ball to fly half. Should work even better with Daly.

First half Wales seemed to pick out Steward a lot before switching up as you say. Even competing with Steward in the air he's such a big guy and gets so high unless you chaser is able to get up early an own the space it's virtually impossible to compete legally.

Knowing that Steward covers the kicks and shifts the other players in the backfield to take on the responsibility does open up potential opportunities to target England. Arundell and Daly can both play at 15 and counter attack so will be interesting to see what Wales try.

Arundell is just barely out of nappies, Wales should kick to him relentlessly.  And then we will see if Arundell is the goods fielding kicks or not. Daly will probably be OK, though he has seemed in the past to get a case of the wobblies when catching a kick in traffic.  

The England lineup is better than last Saturday on paper.  But I have no idea if this Wales squad will be batter than last week or not.  I thought I read that Gatland changed the whole XV and some of the entire 23?  Just want to set expectations before the game.

Please let them do that. They should also chase those kicks hard because it is going to be more important to pressure him than having a well aligned defense. Wingers never score length of the pitch tries these days...

No 7&1/2 wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Eliott Daly Fullback extrordinaire.  Can play across the back three, but he ain't no Malins....

I remember with fondness how safe I felt everything the ball went up in the air for him to contest. I have no idea why we moved away from him?

It's the beard.

Daly was apparently the first player Borthwick contacted after he took the job.

Wales by 5. Borthwick doesn't know what he's doing.

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales by 5. Borthwick doesn't know what he's doing.

You could right! We haven't a clue either. Let's hope faz takes control on the pitch and we can string 5 phases together.

George is breaking ranks and saying they will be hoping to emulate BazBall. Hope this doesn't signal a split in the camp especially from such an important player. Borthwick has set out the blueprint abd we don't want people going off script.

No 7&1/2 wrote:George is breaking ranks and saying they will be hoping to emulate BazBall. Hope this doesn't signal a split in the camp especially from such an important player. Borthwick has set out the blueprint abd we don't want people going off script.

George wants to bring bats on the pitch to subdue the opposition.  

Not strictly on topic, but England U18s beat France 41-0 today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10jbHxwwIk

Heard a lot about young Billy Sela and Tuipulotu, but this is the first time I've seen them play, and they seemingly had an impressive game.  With Henry Pollock already moved up, it looks like England have (eventually!) got another talented generation coming through.

Cumbrian wrote:Not strictly on topic, but England U18s beat France 41-0 today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10jbHxwwIk

Heard a lot about young Billy Sela and Tuipulotu, but this is the first time I've seen them play, and they seemingly had an impressive game.  With Henry Pollock already moved up, it looks like England have (eventually!) got another talented generation coming through.

One game doth not a future make (or some variation on that theme).  But infinitely better than if the scoreline was reversed!

Who stood out?

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Not strictly on topic, but England U18s beat France 41-0 today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10jbHxwwIk

Heard a lot about young Billy Sela and Tuipulotu, but this is the first time I've seen them play, and they seemingly had an impressive game.  With Henry Pollock already moved up, it looks like England have (eventually!) got another talented generation coming through.

One game doth not a future make (or some variation on that theme).  But infinitely better than if the scoreline was reversed!

Who stood out?

It was more the general play, it was accurate, quick and decisive. They all seemed to know exactly what they should be doing and their basic skills were very good. It has to be said that it was aided by some comedy defending from the French lads (who seemed to be doing a remarkable impression of recent English teams). Tuipulotu was the stand out for me, an all action hooker. Sela was Brutally powerful and Kieran Bracken's son showed up well. Liked the look of the young second row Sedeke too.

Cumbrian wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Cumbrian wrote:Not strictly on topic, but England U18s beat France 41-0 today:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E10jbHxwwIk

Heard a lot about young Billy Sela and Tuipulotu, but this is the first time I've seen them play, and they seemingly had an impressive game.  With Henry Pollock already moved up, it looks like England have (eventually!) got another talented generation coming through.

One game doth not a future make (or some variation on that theme).  But infinitely better than if the scoreline was reversed!

Who stood out?

It was more the general play, it was accurate, quick and decisive.  They all seemed to know exactly what they should be doing and their basic skills were very good.  It has to be said that it was aided by some comedy defending from the French lads (who seemed to be doing a remarkable impression of recent English teams). Tuipulotu was the stand out for me, an all action hooker.  Sela was Brutally powerful and Kieran Bracken's son showed up well.  Liked the look of the young second row Sedeke too.

You are talking about England?????
This is good stuff, thanks for sharing.

It is going to get really complicated for commentators in the future, as there will likely be a Tuipolotu in every internationsl side!

BigGee wrote:It is going to get really complicated for commentators in the future, as there will likely be a Tuipolotu in every internationsl side!

Ha! I guess that is migration for you, at least they are more interesting than 'Smith','Campbell', 'Jones' or 'Murphy'.

It's a really good crop tbf. Both the lads playing in the 6N and this lot who are just starting their U18 season. Many of whom were also playing a year up as U17s in the 6N.

There is some great individual talent, but they also look very well coached. Hopefully it's a sign that the malaise at that level there's been at that level since John Fletcher was around in charge of them. Just great heads up rugby and some really strong defence for long periods whilst France were camped on our line.

Seen a lot of Tuipolotu. He'll be some player and it will be interesting to see which club (or Region given his family roots) ends up signing him, as he's now in the RFU run academy that used to be LI's U18s.

Bracken, Kpoku (he's going to be the best one imo) and Sela the other obvious stand outs.

Yoda wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales by 5. Borthwick doesn't know what he's doing.

You could right! We haven't a clue either. Let's hope faz takes control on the pitch and we can string 5 phases together.

Nooooo. Give Farrell his head and he will kick away possession every time England get close to the 22. Oh wait, he already does that...

BigGee wrote:It is going to get really complicated for commentators in the future, as there will likely be a Tuipolotu in every internationsl side!

Mrs. T must be very tired.

doctor_grey wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales by 5. Borthwick doesn't know what he's doing.

You could right! We haven't a clue either. Let's hope faz takes control on the pitch and we can string 5 phases together.

Nooooo.  Give Farrell his head and he will kick away possession every time England get close to the 22.  Oh wait, he already does that...

As long as it's a kick pass with Marchant or Arundell as the target, that mightn't be a bad strategy.

Poorfour wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales by 5. Borthwick doesn't know what he's doing.

You could right! We haven't a clue either. Let's hope faz takes control on the pitch and we can string 5 phases together.

Nooooo.  Give Farrell his head and he will kick away possession every time England get close to the 22.  Oh wait, he already does that...

As long as it's a kick pass with Marchant or Arundell as the target, that mightn't be a bad strategy.

I think more likely it will be when there is a clear overlap on one side and instead he will kick a grubber the other way, off target, to Malins

doctor_grey wrote:

Yoda wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Wales by 5. Borthwick doesn't know what he's doing.

You could right! We haven't a clue either. Let's hope faz takes control on the pitch and we can string 5 phases together.

Nooooo.  Give Farrell his head and he will kick away possession every time England get close to the 22.  Oh wait, he already does that...

Ideally he twinges his hamstring slightly with one of those kicks and Ford comes on early.

Eddie looks more clueless tbh, it was the right call to get rid of him. Knowing our luck Aus turn really good at the group stages.

mikey_dragon wrote:Eddie looks more clueless tbh, it was the right call to get rid of him. Knowing our luck Aus turn really good at the group stages.

He was very good when he first took over for England. Went sour after a few years though

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Eddie looks more clueless tbh, it was the right call to get rid of him. Knowing our luck Aus turn really good at the group stages.

He was very good when he first took over for England. Went sour after a few years though

Up to just before the final in 2019 it had generally gone very well. Record unbeaten run, beating Australia and New Zealand on the way to the final. Core of young players in 2019 that should have seen us through to 2023 with the rest of the squad to be built up around them.

Jones seemed to lose his head during the Covid and Sarries relegation period. Never recovered.

I always supported Jones even when it was starting to badly unravel, but by time of last autumn games I'd had enough. Continuing poor performances coupled with losing, his stubborn selections and his inability to stop motivating opposition in pre match interviews plus the always jam tomorrow philosphy did it for me.

Is Borthwick better? Certainly not so far although early days. His interviews are in stark contrast, he doesn't annoy other teams but boy is he uninspiring.

I'm concerned coaching team far too Leicester heavy, other fresh voices would be better but he is doing what he thinks is the right thing I guess.

However, I can't see him getting canned even if England flunk out of group, which is unlikely anyway. I think he deserves some time to get it sorted.
If it's still a shambles post 6N maybe I'll change mind but for now we see how it goes.

mountain man wrote:I always supported Jones even when it was starting to badly unravel, but by time of last autumn games I'd had enough. Continuing poor performances coupled with losing, his stubborn selections and his inability to stop motivating opposition in pre match interviews plus the always jam tomorrow philosphy did it for me.

Is Borthwick better? Certainly not so far although early days. His interviews are in stark contrast, he doesn't annoy other teams but boy is he uninspiring.

I'm concerned coaching team far too Leicester heavy, other fresh voices would be better but he is doing what he thinks is the right thing I guess.

However, I can't see him getting canned even if England flunk out of group, which is unlikely anyway. I think he deserves some time to get it sorted.
If it's still a shambles post 6N maybe I'll change mind but for now we see how it goes.

Who do you replace Borthwick with anyway? There is a huge gamble involved with anyone taking the role

Well exactly that is also issue, some already saying Borthwick should be sacked(!) but who to replace him with?

No good getting rid unless there is someone better and available.

Anyway, just can't see RFU binning him yet. Would make them look like made error appointing him if sacked so soon plus of course the money involved.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:Eddie looks more clueless tbh, it was the right call to get rid of him. Knowing our luck Aus turn really good at the group stages.

He was very good when he first took over for England. Went sour after a few years though

Up to just before the final in 2019 it had generally gone very well. Record unbeaten run, beating Australia and New Zealand on the way to the final. Core of young players in 2019 that should have seen us through to 2023 with the rest of the squad to be built up around them.

Jones seemed to lose his head during the Covid and Sarries relegation period. Never recovered.

Yes that was about the time he didn't evolve when it was needed, but compare it with someone like Baxter who has evolved and rebuilt with Exeter several times, that is something Eddie couldn't do. There weren't many better coaches than EJ up to that period.

mountain man wrote:Well exactly that is also issue, some already saying Borthwick should be sacked(!) but who to replace him with?

No good getting rid unless there is someone better and available.

Anyway, just can't see RFU binning him yet. Would make them look like made error appointing him if sacked so soon plus of course the money involved.

It will take a couple of years to build up his team after Eddie went AWOL. Borthwick always does the media stuff with a straight bat because a lot of I it complete rubbish and distracts players and coaches too much. You can tell his off screen persona from the incident against Bristol where they tried to send John afoa back on. He was alot more animated then!

He has got the players in the squad that everyone has clambered for with the exception of mercer and murley and perhaps a couple of forwards. His latest pick of the team would also allude to a thought we have all agreed on and that's Farrell at 10.

Was that nit forward from wales

Only about 3m - not sure what the officials were looking at ... at least the ref spotted Wales pushing early at the scrum unlike the chap last week

Earl looking good.

England much better

mountain man wrote:Earl looking good.

I said above he'll put in a performance to put pressure on Curry.

Hope so, Curry not player he was last year or so.

Same as 1st half last week so far - on top but can't keep hold of the ball ...

too many unforced errors from both sides

Blimey is the roof closed, so many handling errors....

Apparently it's a new type of ball made of soap

Daft by Arundell. Not thinking.

Never mind Young's is on

All going pear-shaped now ...

mountain man wrote:Daft by Arundell. Not thinking.

Never mind Young's is on

Can't abide that Liam Williams...

Hill coming on too now?

Entirely unconvincing so far. Shades of last week, start ok looking decent then silly errors and turnovers.
Need to improve.

Almost a carbon copy