England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

Borthwick was the obvious choice, although the circumstances were always less than ideal. Those circumstances mean that he gets a free pass for the performances across the 6N. He's had the team in camp for weeks now, so there should be some signs of change, his stamp on proceedings. The stamp is that we are sh!t at everything. How many rolling mauls did we get in the Fijian 22? I know how many we converted - 0. I am not sure if we ever looked like scoring from something that should be meat and drink for such an experienced set of forwards, and we never looked like scoring any other way either.

Credit to May for his try because it was the kind of individual skill he has shown over a long career despite the best efforts of the team, and credit to Smith and Ford for that one kick, but it seemed like the exception rather than the rule.

Ireland won tonight because they can be so good at controlling the ball, so that Samoa had so few opportunities to attack in that 2nd half. When we play Samoa we'll be spending all evening giving them the ball in space. It could get very painful.

Mid-way through the second half an England supporter a few rows in front shouted "STOP F***ING KICKING IT!" as Ford kicked away yet more usable possession.

At the end of the match there were shouts of "SOMEBODY SACK BORTHWICK" and "GET RID OF HIM - HE'S F***ING USELESS!!"

Well done to Fiji. You did what I expected and did it well.

England had some bright spots - Mitchell, Smith, Marchant. May's try was well taken. Aaaaand that's about it. The England fans around me were pretty much peed off by the way we played. Rigidity and predictable play DOES NOT WORK AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. How do the coaches not see this?

Looking forward to seeing who replaces Borthwick in November now. He surely can't stay...

Since Woodward resigned in 2004, the RFU has made a series of coaching appointment mistakes.

- Over promoting Andy Robinson (perhaps the most understandable error).
- Spending a fortune to buy Brian Ashton out of his Bath contract, only to take him away from the attack coach role almost immediately, and give him a head coach role, which was never his forte.
- Removing Ashton in a poor fashion, to make way for complete coaching novice Martin Johnson, who couldn't start the job for months anyway, and couldn't change Ashton's assistant coaching team.
- After the 2015 World Cup, making Johnson such a scapegoat, he has been lost as any kind of asset to England Rugby ever since.
- Installing an inexperienced Stuart Lancaster with no attempt to effort to help him balance his coaching, management and PR workload.
- After investing in four years of a home-grown English coaching team, hiring an overseas coach and letting him ditch the lot.
- Re-appointing Jones afer the 2019 World Cup, without setting performance targets and reviews for the next four years.
- Devising a coaching succession plan for 2023, then blowing up a carefully negotiated arrangement in a blind panic, which may well end up undermining Borthwick's authority.

Rugby Fan wrote:Since Woodward resigned in 2004, the RFU has made a series of coaching appointment mistakes.

- Over promoting Andy Robinson (perhaps the most understandable error).
- Spending a fortune to buy Brian Ashton out of his Bath contract, only to take him away from the attack coach role almost immediately, and give him a head coach role, which was never his forte.
- Removing Ashton in a poor fashion, to make way for complete coaching novice Martin Johnson, who couldn't start the job for months anyway, and couldn't change Ashton's assistant coaching team.
- After the 2015 World Cup, making Johnson such a scapegoat, he has been lost as any kind of asset to England Rugby ever since.
- Installing an inexperienced Stuart Lancaster with no attempt to effort to help him balance his coaching, management and PR workload.
- After investing in four years of a home-grown English coaching team, hiring an overseas coach and letting him ditch the lot.
- Re-appointing Jones afer the 2019 World Cup, without setting performance targets and reviews for the next four years.
- Devising a coaching succession plan for 2023, then blowing up a carefully negotiated arrangement in a blind panic, which may well end up undermining Borthwick's authority.

thats an awful lot of mistakes.

my excuse is the players are very average and the pl rugby is worse then the urc . by far

alive555 wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Since Woodward resigned in 2004, the RFU has made a series of coaching appointment mistakes.

- Over promoting Andy Robinson (perhaps the most understandable error).
- Spending a fortune to buy Brian Ashton out of his Bath contract, only to take him away from the attack coach role almost immediately, and give him a head coach role, which was never his forte.
- Removing Ashton in a poor fashion, to make way for complete coaching novice Martin Johnson, who couldn't start the job for months anyway, and couldn't change Ashton's assistant coaching team.
- After the 2015 World Cup, making Johnson such a scapegoat, he has been lost as any kind of asset to England Rugby ever since.
- Installing an inexperienced Stuart Lancaster with no attempt to effort to help him balance his coaching, management and PR workload.
- After investing in four years of a home-grown English coaching team, hiring an overseas coach and letting him ditch the lot.
- Re-appointing Jones afer the 2019 World Cup, without setting performance targets and reviews for the next four years.
- Devising a coaching succession plan for 2023, then blowing up a carefully negotiated arrangement in a blind panic, which may well end up undermining Borthwick's authority.

thats an awful lot of mistakes.

my excuse is the players are very average and the pl rugby is worse then the urc . by far

The top of the Prem is below the top of the URC (mainly Leinster) otherwise the leagues are pretty comparable. I do think we're seeing the damage done by the financial constraints of the Prem currently though, more English players playing at a lower level isn't better for the international team.

The world cup preparation has been a shambles, Borthwick hasn't got the coaches he wanted in time for the tournament and the RFU have instead merely hired the very rookie Tigers outfit and hoped for the best.

At least there won't be many games for us to endure at the world cup.

Think some people are doing a disservice to the coaches we have. They're all completely dedicated and skillful guys. I was going to say at the peak of their careers but pulled back. This is no where near their peak! Guys like our scrum coach are only 33, can you imagine what we'll be like in 4 years when he's had a proper chance to his hooks into us?! Borthwick was the obvious choice and remains now our only choice. We simply can't allow these guys to leave else we'll have teams like Ireland simply swoop in and take them all for their clubs and international sides.

If progress is seemingly slow for some just remember it's the players fault. We're unfit, when you compare our top sides they are devoid of talent. Coaching in the prem bar the aforementioned Borthwick et al leave a lot to be desired. I suggest we simply sit back and enjoy the style of play and entertainment we're. Accept our lot for 4 to 8 years and admit that teams like Fiji are ahead of us in the world rankings.

Mr Bounce wrote:Mid-way through the second half an England supporter a few rows in front shouted "STOP F***ING KICKING IT!" as Ford kicked away yet more usable possession.

At the end of the match there were shouts of "SOMEBODY SACK BORTHWICK" and "GET RID OF HIM - HE'S F***ING USELESS!!"

Well done to Fiji. You did what I expected and did it well.

England had some bright spots - Mitchell, Smith, Marchant. May's try was well taken. Aaaaand that's about it. The England fans around me were pretty much peed off by the way we played. Rigidity and predictable play DOES NOT WORK AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. How do the coaches not see this?

Looking forward to seeing who replaces Borthwick in November now. He surely can't stay...

That's exactly what I was shouting at the telly, "Stop F***ing kicking it" at Ford.

Couldn't believe he kept doing it, that was exactly what Farrell and Youngs did in 6N to similiar effect, ie NONE.

Fine if have penalty advantage as nothing lost but to do it when chances of success are 50:50 at best was criminal.

As for Borthwick we shall see but surely Sinfield as defence coach bears blame as well. The defence(was there one?) was utterly shocking.

The only hope I have is that we scrape through the group...anything after that Is a bonus

Post WC the whole coaching set up is evaluated...and actions taken..(though I have little faith in the crusty nosed RFU leaders)

An evaluation of the prem, the a league, the championship also take place. Everything needs to be geared to building internatonal battle ready young players...who can continue to improve.

And all the old guard are moved on. Start from scratch. A complete rebuild

Well I've said for some time a rebuild for 2027 RWC cycle is needed, just needs to start ASAP.

I thought low point reached with Welsh games, how wrong I was....

(Credit has to go to Fiji in all this though, they were excellent.)

Exactly 2027 us the 1 to aim for. Need to keep the experienced core though and trust Borthwick and the rfu. He'll need to start beasting the players properly in training though to increase their skills. At least the system is working.

Rugby Analyst on factors behind our decline

As a neutral I thought several English players showed a lot of passion and clearly were trying very hard to do the jersey proud. Marcus Smith in particular looked incredibly frustrated and eager to get on and do something (which he did).

The glaring problem seemed to be that England had no defensive structure. The blindside try by Habosi was spectacularly easy. Earl got round from the scrum quickly and into position, but he was looking ahead into empty space and not even checking to see if the space beside him was covered. I'm no expert but that seemed incredibly robotic. Even after Habosi broke through Steward should have had him covered as the last line of defence. He wasn't even close to tackling him, totally caught off guard. Excellent try from Fiji but shocking defence. How do you fix that in two weeks?

If I were Borthwick I would be focusing purely on defence until kick off against Argentina. Argentina play fast but often make unforced errors. Improving the defence will ensure England can capitalise on those errors and play in Argentinas half of the pitch.

I know it is all doom and gloom but losing like that to Fiji now was probably better than wining given the problems.

Well....being married has finally paid off.

Spent the weekend away for my wedding anniversary so sadly missed the game.....dare say I probably won't try and catch a replay.

Borthwick’s biggest crime is dragging us down to the same standard as the Welsh, that alone is enough for me

mountain man wrote:Well I've said for some time a rebuild for 2027 RWC cycle is needed, just needs to start ASAP.

I thought low point reached with Welsh games, how wrong I was....

(Credit has to go to Fiji in all this though, they were excellent.)

Fiji are better than Wales currently to be fair.

mountain man wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Mid-way through the second half an England supporter a few rows in front shouted "STOP F***ING KICKING IT!" as Ford kicked away yet more usable possession.

At the end of the match there were shouts of "SOMEBODY SACK BORTHWICK" and "GET RID OF HIM - HE'S F***ING USELESS!!"

Well done to Fiji. You did what I expected and did it well.

England had some bright spots - Mitchell, Smith, Marchant. May's try was well taken. Aaaaand that's about it. The England fans around me were pretty much peed off by the way we played. Rigidity and predictable play DOES NOT WORK AT INTERNATIONAL LEVEL. How do the coaches not see this?

Looking forward to seeing who replaces Borthwick in November now. He surely can't stay...

That's exactly what I was shouting at the telly, "Stop F***ing kicking it" at Ford.

Couldn't believe he kept doing it, that was exactly what Farrell and Youngs did in 6N to similiar effect, ie NONE.

Fine if have penalty advantage as nothing lost but to do it when chances of success are 50:50 at best was criminal.

As for Borthwick we shall see but surely Sinfield as defence coach bears blame as well. The defence(was there one?) was utterly shocking.

Sinfield is going to be under a lot of scrutiny and deservedly so but you've also got to ask why experienced players can't do simple things like position themselves at guard. That cost us two tries yesterday with Earl leaving 5m between himself and the breakdown and then Ribbans standing behind two England players completing a tackle instead of filling the hole the Fiji player wondered through for the win when the offload came. Surely there's an expectation at this level that players will do the sodding basics. Guard and bodyguard is something ingrained by the age of 9 usually.

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Sinfield is going to be under a lot of scrutiny...

The RFU convinced themselves Sinfield is in the same class as Andy Farrell and Shaun Edwards. While he' s clearly an inspirational character, he's only been with rugby union in a senior coaching capacity since 2021. When the RFU let Farrell go in 2015, he had been coaching union for five years, including a stint with the Lions.

I was no fan of Borthwick's appointment, because of the memory of his anodyne post-match interviews as captain. Nevertheless, I think he has the interests of English rugby at heart. Like Stuart Lancaster, he has a better chance of getting all the pieces in the English game lined up for the benefit of England. A coach like ROG would probably be great for the senior team but that's no longer the only priority for the sport in England.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Well....being married has finally paid off.

Spent the weekend away for my wedding anniversary so sadly missed the game.....dare say I probably won't try and catch a replay.

I went off for lunch with a friend and decided to hang out for the afternoon rather than go home for the rugby. Looking on here I made the right decision... and it's not one I'd have made a few years back.

Well at least none of our players have been done for performance enhancing drugs. Always amazes me though with the physique on these guys and footballer given how much money is in the sport that's its so 'clean'.

So how do they fix the defence...and quickly

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well at least none of our players have been done for performance enhancing drugs.

Maybe they need to be!

Rugby Fan wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Sinfield is going to be under a lot of scrutiny...

The RFU convinced themselves Sinfield is in the same class as Andy Farrell and Shaun Edwards. While he' s clearly an inspirational character, he's only been with rugby union in a senior coaching capacity since 2021. When the RFU let Farrell go in 2015, he had been coaching union for five years, including a stint with the Lions.

I was no fan of Borthwick's appointment, because of the memory of his anodyne post-match interviews as captain. Nevertheless, I think he has the interests of English rugby at heart. Like Stuart Lancaster, he has a better chance of getting all the pieces in the English game lined up for the benefit of England. A coach like ROG would probably be great for the senior team but that's no longer the only priority for the sport in England.

I'm not sure a coach can change the issues in English rugby. I honestly think a root and branch reset is the only thing that can. Similar to the changes in France in 2019.

The way France have grown their system and made it more open just embarrasses the disaster that is the RFU and PRL.

At the top you have the the Top 14 and ProD2 which is managed by all the 30 clubs in those leagues meeting and voting. Because a system has been created that encourages, let alone allows, movement between leagues many clubs have been in both. So there is solidarity in decisions rather than "us and them" between the two divisions. They understand the importance of the structure as a whole and vote like it. Rather than just thinking, "what's most likely to keep our club in Top 14 in the next few years".

Then comes Nationale 1 (some pro, some semi-pro) and 2 (largely semi pro), Federales 1 and 2 (the top level of amateur rugby) which are all managed by the FFR. Then Federale 3 and the regional divisions which are managed by those various regional leagues. So there is significant input from all involved. FFR, pro clubs, amateur leagues. Because there is genuine movement between all three you have a system that gives a f**k about what is up and down the pyramid.

Whereas in England we have the Premiership run by PRL for itself and owned by the P-share clubs who pulled up the drawbridge through self interest. Then the RFU trying to run an England team. Both of which are going fairly dismally. Then below that we have the Championship that has been underfunded, cut adrift and left to rot. Followed by an often poorly run amateur league structure. There is so much animosity throughout it. Club vs country (i.e. PRL vs RFU), Prem vs Championship, pro vs amateur.

I honestly think the best bet would be to have 3 unions. One that runs the pro game - the top 2 leagues, a Premiership A-league with restrictions on players over 23-years-old and the England men's team. One running the semi-pro - the national leagues below the Championship. One running the amateur game. The only way it can possibly work is with movement between those levels though.

P-shares were the starting pistol for the increasingly dismal level of competition we now see in the Premiership. It closed the shop and encouraged a setup that discourages competitive games week in, week out in our flagship league. Failing to capitalise when the Prem was stronger by properly investing in the Championship and an A-league to keep the academy talent moving was the final nail.

One good thing we do have is the academy structure. It was invested in heavily and is largely very good. There is U18 talent coming through the academies. Which means there is the raw materials to work with (i.e. talented rugby players) to have a better system. Without a structure that develops it we will continue to see it squandered though.

I'm not sure a coach can change the issues in English rugby. I honestly think a root and branch reset is the only thing that can. Similar to the changes in France in 2019

You are probably right long term but this group of players are underperfoming I would say. Responsibility for that must rest with the coach

Borthwick was given rather a poisoned chalice tho with not much time to prep for the WC

Mr Genge hasn't thought about his tweet I see...

"Go on everyone write us off!! " bit of a hit at the fans criticism. Hasn't gone down well...

The most hardened England supporters are more than entitled to voice their concerns when things are going wrong!

Rugby Fan wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Sinfield is going to be under a lot of scrutiny...

The RFU convinced themselves Sinfield is in the same class as Andy Farrell and Shaun Edwards.

I don't think they did, that's an odd comparison as neither coach was available at the time Sinfield was appointed. England also have the Boks current defence and former attack coach joining after the world cup so clearly knew that additional experience was required.

Think we're all now agreed that we have the best coaches we can. Including the SA Irish coach incoming after the world cup. This is a world class group so it's up to the rfu and rpl next year to ensure they have enough players of class tp work with exile ensuring we ignore anyone moving abroad to improve themselves. Give Borthwick 4 to 6 years and I honestly think we'll be above Fiji in the rankings again.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think we're all now agreed that we have the best coaches we can. Including the SA Irish coach incoming after the world cup. This is a world class group so it's up to the rfu and rpl next year to ensure they have enough players of class tp work with exile ensuring we ignore anyone moving abroad to improve themselves. Give Borthwick 4 to 6 years and I honestly think we'll be above Fiji in the rankings again.

It’s always nice to have a dream!

Stop wumming mikey you've been on good form recently. It's very doable.

May formally added to the squad as a replacement for Watson

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well at least none of our players have been done for performance enhancing drugs.  Always amazes me though with the physique on these guys and footballer given how much money is in the sport that's its so 'clean'.

There’s a lot to be said about this. Webb (who obviously was never in Wales’ squad), looks the most innocent out of the three 9s that did make the Wales warm up squad. It’s a problem that there isn’t that good a testing schedule.

Well france sublime  ...

Playing a different sport to England..and quite a few other teams at the moment....

Hopefully they'll have stage fright this world Cup.

France great - shame about the annoying crowd objecting to any decision that doesn't go their way no matter how obviously correct ...

TJ wrote:

I'm not sure a coach can change the issues in English rugby. I honestly think a root and branch reset is the only thing that can. Similar to the changes in France in 2019

You are probably right long term but this group of players are underperfoming I would say.  Responsibility for that must rest with the coach

Borthwick was given rather a poisoned chalice tho with not much time to prep for the WC

The dire state of English rugby as a whole doesn't completely absolve Jones or Borthwick of blame, no.

Jones tried to keep going with the experiment of not having an attacking structure for the forwards too long after it became clear that the players weren't up to it.

In the current squad I wouldn't have two of the three scrum-halves (Youngs and Care) in the RWC squad. I find it odd that they have developed a structure both under Evans and now Wigglesworth that seems to need two playmakers then pick one. I also think that Arundell or Malins should have got a chance at fullback rather than wing over these warmups. To name but three issues.

I don't think it's a coincidence that England's rise (3 Six Nations titles in 5 years, record equalling win run, RWC final, successful tours) coincided with the Prem being at it's strongest. In those 5 years English clubs won the Champions Cup in 4 of them. Nor do I think it's a coincidence that England's fall has coincided with the Prem's decent from challenging the Top 14 as the most complete domestic league in the sport to being a whole lot of mediocrity interspersed with some professional rugby.

That's the far bigger issue. It doesn't absolve blame for coaching mistakes but it does explain why I don't think getting into an endless churn of replacing England coaches is a good idea. It would just produce a smoke screen to prevent change where it is direly needed. Which realistically is comprehensive change to the games failing structures, not Ben Earl's attentiveness when working around a ruck in defence.

Some of the experienced players really let the side down on the weekend, look at the second Fiji try and watch Jonny May's defense, he runs about 30m's side to side - is close to both Fijians who create the try but never actually touches either of them. It's school boy stuff. The system has seasoned pro's panicking about who has which opponent.

The forwards have been done to death but again, the systems don't help them. Too often there are too many players stood near a ruck not contributing, again this must be the coaches fault not giving the players the instructions and gameplan needed to go to under pressure.

Lastly the backs, the centers were dire. Again a lot is coaching, there was an interesting thread on the damage Pivac did constantly changing the Welsh midfield, and it highlighted the number of games needed for a center combo to gel (it's a lot) and England are in the same boat, constant changes at center are killing us. Outside of them two wings who can't defend or add much in attack don't help.

But honestly it was great to see Fiji win.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Sinfield is going to be under a lot of scrutiny...

The RFU convinced themselves Sinfield is in the same class as Andy Farrell and Shaun Edwards.

I don't think they did, that's an odd comparison as neither coach was available at the time Sinfield was appointed. England also have the Boks current defence and former attack coach joining after the world cup so clearly knew that additional experience was required.

I'm talking about Bill Sweeney wishcasting. Though it might be a bit unfair to limit that charge to him, as wishcasting seems to have been the RFU's main hiring methodology over the last 20 years.

Rugby Fan wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:...Sinfield is going to be under a lot of scrutiny...

The RFU convinced themselves Sinfield is in the same class as Andy Farrell and Shaun Edwards.

I don't think they did, that's an odd comparison as neither coach was available at the time Sinfield was appointed. England also have the Boks current defence and former attack coach joining after the world cup so clearly knew that additional experience was required.

I'm talking about Bill Sweeney wishcasting. Though it might be a bit unfair to limit that charge to him, as wishcasting seems to have been the RFU's main hiring methodology over the last 20 years.

Still not really sure of the point you're trying to make. If it's that Bill Sweeney has hired and hoped that potential in the coaching staff will quickly manifest to victories then I agree.

"When it comes to our plan for Argentina and our understanding of what we need to do to win that game, we'll be crystal clear on it," - Ford. Bbc.

'Stick with us through the dark' - Genge
Vice-captain Ellis Genge posted on X, formerly known as Twitter, following the defeat by Fiji: "Write us off now, all the best"


The players know they're where they need to be.

I see ford has come out and said things aren't so rosey in training either....Still making too many errorsjudt inna training scenario.

Geordie wrote:I see ford has come out and said things aren't so rosey in training either....Still making too many errorsjudt inna training scenario.

Geordie, unfortunately this sounds me like more of the same old stuff, with perhaps a bit of cover for his coaches.  Not training well, not good enough, blah, blah, blah.  Most of these guys have been through the mill.  If training wasn't good enough they should have seen this not long after training camp started.  And before that during the Six Nations.  And then they should have done something about it.  Ford may be right, but this still put the onus on the players to execute in training and in games and to play smart.  And then, what does that say about Farrell as the leader many of the players and coaches lionise for his apparently outsized influence on the team?  

None of this exonerates the coaching staff, not by a mile.  But, if Ford is saying this now, it' already too late.

yappysnap wrote:Some of the experienced players really let the side down on the weekend, look at the second Fiji try and watch Jonny May's defense, he runs about 30m's side to side - is close to both Fijians who create the try but never actually touches either of them. It's school boy stuff. The system has seasoned pro's panicking about who has which opponent.

The forwards have been done to death but again, the systems don't help them. Too often there are too many players stood near a ruck not contributing, again this must be the coaches fault not giving the players the instructions and gameplan needed to go to under pressure.

It's a very narrow defence which is clearly aimed at preventing the opposition getting over the gain line carrying around the ruck. Which stops momentum. Which prevents sides getting round the narrow defence. In theory. In reality they aren't winning the collisions to keep knocking sides back. The system needs dominant tackles and England aren't making that many. It's a system that can hang back three players out to dry if teams get outside that narrow defence.

The second try was a shocking bit of defensive work from May though. Turning his back on the inside defence so early meant he didn't know that Lawrence easily had his inside shoulder covered. Had he known that he could have just pushed to the touchline. Then he missed the tackle. It was truly dire from a player who had improved those aspects of his game to be very rounded at his peak. To be fair to May he put in a very good bit of defence later on where he ran down Nayacalevu (who isn't slow!) and made a cracking hit in to get him to touch without a chance to offload inside.

The narrow defence should lend itself to high tackle completion as well. Which was not present against Fiji.

England's defence has evolved a lot since 2015 under various coaches but a lot of familiar faces in terms of players. It's been an interesting progression to watch, is a good indicator of trends in the game. Gustard early on used a very aggressive blitz. The fringe defence and backs would both push very hard. JJ would use his pace to try to cut off teams going wide but also had the pace to cover outside arcs. They tried to force teams to run at that dominant fringe defence.

Then Mitchell adopted more of a drift defence. The bend don't break approach that became popular for a time and Tandy had working beautifully for Scotland at one point. It allowed more metres on individual carries but aimed to prevent line breaks. They attacked the breakdown more too as reffing interpretations seemed to soften, favour jackals a bit more again. After the 2015 RWC where the likes of Pocock and Warburton dominated so heavily there was a clear shift to favouring the attacking side. Particularly with jackals attacking beyond the ball and being back driven onto it by attempted clear outs.

Seibold then moved to a hybrid of those two. They blitzed harder around the fringes again and were less aggressive wider out. Tight to the ruck the focus was line speed and wider out it was the bend don't break approach that prioritised keeping alignment between defenders in the outside channels over line speed.

Early in the Six Nations under Sinfield we've largely seen slower line speed and a tight defence which prioritises alignment, allows double tackles to prevent offloads and should prevent sides getting momentum with simple crash ball runners off 9 and 10. It showed some promise at times in the Six Nations when England were able to soak up lots of phases without looking under much pressure. There have just been too many individual mistakes and players clearly fading as the game goes on though. Against Ireland in 6N R5 they suddenly blitzed much harder. Which put Ireland under more pressure at times but again didn't have the precision needed in execution.

Overall I think that less aggressive line speed makes sense for the current game. Refs are favouring attacks at the moment, touch judges are hot on offside calls at the ruck which makes a blitz more difficult. It relies on a very high tackle completion as well as good alignment and communication though. Which England have often been dismal at.

Tom Curry has been massively missed. He's England best defender by a distance. Their best in the tackle, best at identifying when to attack rucks, incredible work rate, good communicator. He'll hopefully make an impact when fit. Defence is a weak link aspect of the sport though. As long as England's weakest links are making diabolical positional reads and missing tackles there aren't any defensive systems that will work.

Geordie wrote:I see ford has come out and said things aren't so rosey in training either....Still making too many errorsjudt inna training scenario.

I think he's voicing frustration. He can obviously see the coaches vision but it's not there yet. Worrying that it's not there on the training paddock as that's a step down from match day. Hopefully they are working their ball bags off over the next two weeks to ensure that Vs Argentina we see something cohesive.

The Rugby Analyst video made an interesting point as to how many of our current side would make other nation's starting lineup. How many would make a Lions XV? Maybe none? Whilst some bad coaching has contributed to our players downfall, it cannot just be down to them? Itoje has looked tired, mentally and physically from his continual high load. I thought post the Lions Eddie needed to rest him from the summer Aussie tour and I think he is just plodding on. Most of our players who played in 2019 are now inferior versions of themselves.

Then add in that many new players have been given so little game time. Arundell, Dan, Walker, Lawrence etc have yet to earn their international stripes in earnest. How on earth can new combinations, such as Manu and Ollie, have any realistic chance of success when they have enjoyed just 1 outing together.

So we have a poor group of players and then add in the late change of coaches, the oh so limited game plan and of course we are all doomed.

Stick with Borthers long term and give him a chance to sort all of this? My dream team would still be Andy Farrell, Shaun Edwards and Stuart Lancaster.

hugehandoff wrote:

Stick with Borthers long term and give him a chance to sort all of this? My dream team would still be Andy Farrell, Shaun Edwards and Stuart Lancaster.  

I'm unsure how good Farrell and Lancaster are and how much their success in Ireland is owed to the Leinster talent factory. The world cup will be the acid test for Farrell and Lancaster stepping into the firing line as the main man at Racing next year should give us some answers.

Edwards is a world class defence coach. Can't help feeling like he likes the attention from the RFU but doesn't actually have any interest in taking the job. If he was serious about joining and didn't demand an astronomic fee from France for his services then I'd have him in tomorrow.

I'm very interested to see what Felix Jones brings post world cup though I'm still disappointed that Sam Vesty wasn't snared to lead the England attack, the Saints attack is the difference between them finishing fourth and struggling for a spot in the biggest European competition.

Still little funny at how the disciplinary scenarios work. Where is you land ok following Steward hitting you in the air it's all good or whether a pretty nasty clear out like Barretts to a player laid down is OK as it shoulder. How had Marler not been cited?

Ian Peel was a big miss for England too. He's a very well regarded forwards coach as well as scrum coach. More akin to what Hatley offered when he and Borthwick worked so well together in the past. Or Wig and Borthwick on the '17 Lions tour. Harrison is a talented scrum coach but that's all his remit will really be and he's got a lot less experience than Peel.

Once Peel decided to stay at Sarries I don't mind a scrum coach who's remit doesn't go beyond that. It's not unusual at all. John Fogarty with Ireland and Greg Feek with New Zealand are two very successful examples. I do feel another voice in the general forwards coaching would have helped though. Someone such as Joe El-Abd who is a very highly rated coach in France with decent experience outside the Prem for instance. Similar to Easterby and POC both working with Ireland's forwards in open play and the lineout whilst Fogarty leads the scrum work as a specialist.

I wish they'd gone after John Shaw (Sarries head coach) or Kevin Sorrell (Sarries backs coach) as potential attack coaches too. Both have excellent reputations.

Was anyone outside of the Twitterati actually expecting Marler to get cited? It's not a shoulder charge as he's trying to wrap so isn't foul play where mitigation wouldn't be considered. Tuisue's height changed due to Willis hitting low which is usually considered as mitigation. Initial contact from the one angle we have seems to be on the ball and shoulder. Even if initial contact were head on head or shoulder to head, contact in the tackle such as that has generally come down from red to yellow recently when mitigated by a change in the ball carriers height. In the Farrell case there wasn't actually the mitigation there as the first panel decided and it was a ridiculous decision. That doesn't mean they should stop considering mitigation from a change in the ball carriers height when it is there though. I don't think I saw calls for a citing from anywhere other than usual social media noise after every game.

On a different note, what do you think of the notion to play Marcus Smith at fullback? We talk frequently about players being selected out of position. Yet, in today's Times Stuart Barnes went off and thought Steward was shot and that Smith should start.

This hits a number of levels. Starting with picking a player out of position.
And for the opposition it will be bombs away until Smith shows he is solid or is benched.
And he ain't the biggest player in the world - that said did you notice Smith's crash ball on Saturday? As good as any of our centres!

king_carlos wrote:Was anyone outside of the Twitterati actually expecting Marler to get cited? It's not a shoulder charge as he's trying to wrap so isn't foul play where mitigation wouldn't be considered. Tuisue's height changed due to Willis hitting low which is usually considered as mitigation. Initial contact from the one angle we have seems to be on the ball and shoulder. Even if initial contact were head on head or shoulder to head, contact in the tackle such as that has generally come down from red to yellow recently when mitigated by a change in the ball carriers height. In the Farrell case there wasn't actually the mitigation there as the first panel decided and it was a ridiculous decision. That doesn't mean they should stop considering mitigation from a change in the ball carriers height when it is there though. I don't think I saw calls for a citing from anywhere other than usual social media noise after every game.

Was expecting it as the tmo incorrectly called as there was no shoulder it wasn't worthy of review.

I thought that the ref asked them to look and they judged initial contact to be on the ball which was what the ref thought live as well.

Doc - SB at Tigers frequently started a match with one playmaker at 10 then finished with 2 playmakers. Be it Burns, Hegarty or latterly Atkinson at fullback. Or Gopperth at 12. He seems to like the extra playmaker as the game opens up. I don't think Smith should be considered out of position at 15 to start a game though.

The structure with Evans in the Six Nations and now WW lends itself to two playmakers but they have generally used one. Which makes little sense to be. They tried Smith-Farrell in 6N R1 but abandoned it after the loss to Scotland. I expect we would've seen Ford-Farrell in the warmups if not for Farrell getting banned.

doctor_grey wrote:On a different note, what do you think of the notion to play Marcus Smith at fullback?  We talk frequently about players being selected out of position.  Yet, in today's Times Stuart Barnes went off and thought Steward was shot and that Smith should start.  

This hits a number of levels.  Starting with picking a player out of position.  
And for the opposition it will be bombs away until Smith shows he is solid or is benched.  
And he ain't the biggest player in the world - that said did you notice Smith's crash ball on Saturday?  As good as any of our centres!  

It's a silly idea. If he wanted the additional playmaker put Malins there and actually ask him to be a playmaker.