England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

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Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

Congrats to Fiji but... just hopeless. Worst I have seen England for, what, 15 years? Even when they got into Fiji's 22 they never looked like scoring

I was looking to see how 7.5 could put a positive spin on that. :-)

This is what playing in super rugby has done for them along with a lot of guys playing in Europe. they are now pros and you can see it

Think this is a big moment in the post match interviews for Borthwick. He really needs to take some of the pressure off the players now as the media will be splashing it all over that we're on our way. I'm sure some of the experienced leaders will be in the dressing room to keep this group together focused on the team just getting good territory next game.

At least the wonder boy Marcus Smith scored for the Soap Dodgers. Fiji deserved that

If it helps anyone I had money on Fiji to win today. So pretty good result

carpet baboon wrote:If it helps anyone I had money on Fiji to win today. So pretty good result

Aye, good odds, wasn't it? Around 9/2, 5/1?

Well done Fiji, I for one will be cheering you on for this world cup. I hope more nations upset the apple cart.

carpet baboon wrote:If it helps anyone I had money on Fiji to win today. So pretty good result

It was all part of a cunning plan to help Wales, by giving Fiji a higher World Rugby ranking, so Wales can take more points off them in the pool game. You are welcome.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think this is a big moment in the post match interviews for Borthwick. He really needs to take some of the pressure off the players now as the media will be splashing it all over that we're on our way. I'm sure some of the experienced leaders will be in the dressing room to keep this group together focused on the team just getting good territory next game.

This may well be the interview which sets up the rest of his career.  Blow it, and he loses the team, assuming he hasn't already lost it.  The team is showing  signs of unease with their direction.

carpet baboon wrote:If it helps anyone I had money on Fiji to win today. So pretty good result

Wish I'd thought of that - to be fair it was a pretty safe bet

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think this is a big moment in the post match interviews for Borthwick. He really needs to take some of the pressure off the players now as the media will be splashing it all over that we're on our way. I'm sure some of the experienced leaders will be in the dressing room to keep this group together focused on the team just getting good territory next game.

This may well be the interview which sets up the rest of his career.  Blow it, and he loses the team, assuming he hasn't already lost it.  The team is showing  signs of unease with their direction.

Had to go out briefly so missed the afters - what did he have to say for himself?

Echoes of Italy all those years ago. I've got goosebumps. You can just tell the aura of the man.

I might change my prediction to… Wales not getting out of their group at the World Cup!

Good points by Hartley. He's been given a group of players he had to select as he knows them. But in 4 years time we'll be great. And as ojo says he won the prem.

A great win for Fiji.

Muntz and Lomani look like the best Fiji halfback pairing I've seen. The only competitor would be Raulani and Little. Nayacalevu and Ravutaumada can marry playing the Fijian flair game with much more rounded skills than many of their counterparts. The tight five has improved a lot too. Matavesi is at the heart of that. He was my MOM.

England were once again dismal. Ludlam and Marchant of the bench were bright spots individually, should be starting R1 IMO. The attack looked much better with the two playmakers allowing them to layer their options more. That's about it. I guess Dan and Walker were decent enough which is a glimmer of light given the weakness at hooker.

As said many times I just feel England's biggest issue is how poor the structures are in the pro game. The academies are producing talent at U18s but after that they come into a rubbish Premiership and don't develop. We should have a bridge between age grade and the Premiership in the form of a properly funded Championship and an A-league that would be similar to Espoirs in France. The Championship has been cut adrift and abandoned though. Whilst we didn't develop a proper A-league when the Prem was stronger. Thus players go from U18s, into the Prem too early as they are cheap squad filler for a ringfenced league where tanking a season doesn't matter. Because the Prem now has so many weak games that sides clearly don't give a sh*t about we then don't really have teams competing well in the Champions Cup. Which should be the best indicator of international class or form. It's an absolute cluster f**k of abject management.

Young talent gets to the Premiership and just stagnates. Whilst the older stalwarts that now look poor in internationals will drop back to the Premiership and shine in weaker games. There are strong games but there is far too much dross interspersed. Players are doing development that should be done in the Championship/A-league in the Premiership. In turn because the Premiership is weak we see players having to develop on the job at international level.

That doesn't absolve the last two coaching setups of any blame of course. I wouldn't have Youngs or Care in squad just from one position for instance. I just don't see the players being there in the Premiership though. Billy and Dombrandt look good in the festering puddle of mediocrity that sits atop our f*cked domestic structure. Then they get pumped at international level because the gulf between that puddle of sporting p*ss and the modern international game is gigantic. Regardless of who is coach and what the tactics are I don't see how a coach get this group to improve significantly at international level without players learning and improving on the job, hence dismal performances.

In a functioning structure when players aren't good enough they get dropped to a league where they'll improve, then come back. But we are dropping these guys to a league that won't improve them. Because too many of the games are a s**t standard. That is gigantic problem that runs so much deeper than the first team coach or kicking the ball too much.

Didn't even see the game, heard rhe result

Goodbye Borthwick.....embarrassing

Marler is missing the world cup. How the tmo felt that there was nothing in that tackle to review is frankly laughable. You could say there may is enough mitigation with the additional tackle from Willis. It's at least a yellow.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Think this is a big moment in the post match interviews for Borthwick. He really needs to take some of the pressure off the players now as the media will be splashing it all over that we're on our way. I'm sure some of the experienced leaders will be in the dressing room to keep this group together focused on the team just getting good territory next game.

This may well be the interview which sets up the rest of his career.  Blow it, and he loses the team, assuming he hasn't already lost it.  The team is showing  signs of unease with their direction.

I only managed to catch the first half and a few mins of the second and I don't think that was the case. They all knew their jobs but individual errors were all to often apparent. No one went off script which is the normal tell tale sign of a team unhappy with the script they have been given. Mitchell looked happy with Ford directing him from 10. Manu made some decent metres, Lawrence was a bit quiet though.

The backrow is an area of massive concern. Willis was MIA when we were desperate for someone to attack the breakdown. Earl little better, only Lawes stepped up. Can't have that passive a backrow in defence. The pack as a whole just weren't physical enough let alone close to be dominating.

mikey_dragon wrote:I might change my prediction to… Wales not getting out of their group at the World Cup!

Georgia aren't looking too shabby against Scotland at the moment either ... tough pool

Geordie wrote:Didn't even see the game, heard rhe result

Goodbye Borthwick.....embarrassing

Agreed borthwick should be sacked however we can't say it was embarrassing to lose to Fiji as they are a good team. Embarrassing that we are worse than our constituent parts and players don't have a clue where they are supposed to be or where they are going. Rabbit in headlights at some points today. It's really pitiful to see. Still we have to experience the lows before some home truths hit home before we climb our way back up.

Who will be quietly approached for the head coach role after the world cup? Rumours are circulating Stuart Lancaster could be set for a return.

So this much improved scrum I read about on here, any sign of it?
Pretty average I thought and this was Fiji.

Positives were Dan looked ok, Ford in first half but second just kicked away possession in Fiji 22. Repeatedly.
Manu was ok. Mitchell didn't snipe as much as he could have but pretty good.

The bad, defence everywhere terrible.
Steward worst game I've ever see him have.
Scrum poor.
Malins too fragile tackling. Chessum maybe still getting fit but pretty anonymous. Itoje needs a rest.

Dire

The Pacific Islands have been horrendously overlooked and disadvantaged by the rugby world for far too long and I just hope that Fiji can really go on and make the semis this year. Tier 1 nations never play there (have England ever?) and they get no real preparation between world cups. With England being so abject I think a great RWC for Fiji would be awesome.

The RFU needs to sack the idiots who changed Eddie for Steve so late in the day. Steve is clearly not up to the job. He should revert to being a line out coach and we need to see who we can get in after we are knocked out, which won't take long. We have zero idea how to play the game and there is no comeback on this.

Well Jones time was up so Borthwick appointment was justified at time.
However entire coaching team awful, Sinfield must shoulder blame for defence as that was appalling.
England attack actually OK at times but anyway.

I guess see what happens in RWC. Italy just beat Japan convincingly so even if Argentina beat Eng they should beat Japan and progress.

Doesn't cover up how terrible England are though.

Truly awful.

Italy pulled away in the end when it got really loose, but Japan were in touch for quite a while - I wouldn't be so sure Japan won't run through England's defence easily if they keep playing as badly as they have so far ...

I'm grasping at straws here

Steve Diamond coming in.

Was always a poor appointment at a poor time. If we wanted more of the same should have kept Jones. If we wanted something different should have done that not appoint his understudy.

The timing was always awful with the World Cup so close so seems incredibly naive for anyone who supported his appointment to call for his sacking now.

Said last week we are a tier 2 team now, today proved it and was no surprise. World Cup is a write off. Just terrible, and the state of the club game won’t be a lot of help.

mountain man wrote:Well Jones time was up so Borthwick appointment was justified at time.

Truly awful.

This is a very wrong statement. The timing of the change was appalling. It needed to be at least 1 year earlier and preferably 2 years earlier when the writing was very clearly on the wall for all to see.

It is spectacular how this coaching team have made all the players look worse and a number of excellent players look bang average. We had the opportunity to take Scott Robertson, the next NZ coach, but instead the unimaginative RFU went for Borthers....

No its not. Jones tenure had run it's course and maybe your forgetting how bad things had got under him
I'm not defending Borthwick or appointment of new coach but Jones had lost support of everyone from players to RFU to fans.

mountain man wrote:No its not. Jones tenure had run it's course and maybe your forgetting how bad things had got under him
I'm not defending Borthwick or appointment of new coach but Jones had lost support of everyone from players to RFU to fans.

I am not forgetting. He should have been sacked 1 or 2 years earlier. The sacking came way too late. His course should have ended way earlier.

Shooting from the hip, Eggchasers Tim is starting to regret the sacking of Eddie Jones. He wonders whether Borthwick was able to take Leicester to the title because the Premiership is not good enough, and his limited gameplan was sufficient.

Marler may be cited for a high tackle plus Sinckler is an injury doubt. Leaves possibly Genge and Rodd (anyone seen him?) at loosehead and Stuart and Cole for tighthead. Argentina by 25 points?

So you are saying RFU shouldn't have changed coach even though England were terrible at the time? (Admittedly not as bad as now but we didn't know that then).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

mountain man wrote:So you are saying RFU shouldn't have changed coach even though England were terrible at the time? (Admittedly not as bad as now but we didn't know that then).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

I am unsure why you are struggling with this? The problem is the timing of the sacking, not the actual sacking. Jones should have been sacked a year earlier. The RFU left it too late. Even if Borthwick is a good coach this was insufficient time.

Yes I got that but seeing as England were so bad under Jones at time are you saying he should have been kept anyway?
I realise you think he should have gone years ago but he didn't.

So after last autumn internationals when England were terrible and Jones selection was erratic etc are you saying he shouldn't been sacked ?

No-one knows what future holds but I thought his time was done, I'd had enough.

Meanwhile I'm now starting to think Samoa will be too good for England too ...

hugehandoff wrote:Marler may be cited for a high tackle plus Sinckler is an injury doubt. Leaves possibly Genge and Rodd (anyone seen him?) at loosehead and Stuart and Cole for tighthead. Argentina by 25 points?

Nah they've got Mateo Carreras...it'll be 40 points.

mountain man wrote:So you are saying RFU shouldn't have changed coach even though England were terrible at the time? (Admittedly not as bad as now but we didn't know that then).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Yes. We would have had a better chance at this World Cup sticking with Jones. We had unstructured play that wasn’t miles off working, now we have nothing.

Samoa beating Ireland at half-time - England will be lucky to win more than 1 game in the pool ...

This is karma for the RFU and their hubris. How they think letting all their YDO's go to balance their books instead of cutting deadwood at the top was the way forward I don't know. When you treat fans and supporters with contempt reap what you sow. They are a money making corporation with no interest in elite sport other than the amount of money they can generate. Well done England fans for staying away and not feeding the machine. Hopefully a reduced gate revenue and the slaughter in the press and social media might wake some of the old farts up and they may take more notice and start to actually manage the game in England.

I sincerely hope Fiji got a good slice of the finances from this match because they deserve it. Steve Borthwick you seem like a genuinely nice bloke so do the right thing and resign so we don't have to pay you compensation and put the money into grass roots game to get kids playing in state schools.

But that's with benefit of hindsight. I supported Jones up until time of sacking and by then I'd had enough. Team was bad, his selections were poor and erratic and his stupid press interviews etc made me lose support.

Obviously if we knew then what we know now it would have been right thing to keep him for RWC but I think a lot here are forgetting how bad things had got.

Anyway, it is what it is. A total shambles.

I prefer the word Clusterf*ck - seems more descriptive somehow ...

Borthwick was thrown a hospital pass but he accepted it as well so I don't feel massive sympathy there.

One of the worst bits of logic you commonly hear in sport is, "it can't get worse so we might as well change", though. It usually precipitates things getting worse!

Two good rugby examples. Firstly, Tigers when they ditched Cockers. The club had been on a slide and I felt that Cockers' time had come. There was no proper succession plan though and it turned out things could get a lot worse. Change because there is a plan to improve is good. Change because change might look like there's a plan to improve is dumb. Secondly, the Premiership ringfencing. "We just keep having the relegated club bounce back up. We only have 13 teams that can compete in the Premiership. The non shareholder clubs in the Championship can't break in anyway. It's ridiculous. Why not try ringfencing it can't be worse than this?" Well we could end up with less that 13 teams that compete at Premiership level, a f*cked Premiership and an even more f*cked Championship.

When a team is underperforming and sudden coaching changes are being considered the first question should be, does this run deeper than coaching? Which given the dire state of the English system, it does. By asking that question you can then address the actual problem. As opposed to a circus of #Eddieout, #Borthwickout, #Whoeverthef*ckcomesnextout.

When making coaching changes the question should be, what's coming next? Rather than what's going out. A new coach coming in with such a short time frame until the RWC has thus far not improved things.

No its made it worse BUT there is no way anyone can tell that would be case.
I'm not defending Borthwick etc but I said at time and I stick with it that Jones time was up.

mountain man wrote:But that's with benefit of hindsight. I supported Jones up until time of sacking and by then I'd had enough. Team was bad, his selections were poor and erratic and his stupid press interviews etc made me lose support.

Obviously if we knew then what we know now it would have been right thing to keep him for RWC but I think a lot here are forgetting how bad things had got.

Anyway, it is what it is. A total shambles.

It’s not hindsight, I said the same thing at the time.

If it helps Ireland look like they will likely lose v Samoa

Whatever. I'm pretty sure I wasn't only one who had had enough of Jones and AT THE TIME said it was right thing to replace him despite 9 months to RWC.


But maybe it was just me but it wasn't.

Collapse2005 wrote:If it helps Ireland look like they will likely lose v Samoa

Given Samoa are in our pool, not really

mountain man wrote:Whatever. I'm pretty sure I wasn't only one who had had enough of Jones and AT THE TIME said it was right thing to replace him despite 9 months to RWC.


But maybe it was just me but it wasn't.

It definitely wasn't just you ...