England - the build-up and winning the World Cup at a canter

by formerly known as Sam Thu Aug 24, 2023 6:58 am

First topic message reminder :

Smith in the back field worked nicely against Ireland. We could interchange him and Steward on defensive duty but keep both in the backfield to receive kicks. Ford dropping in it one or the other has chased a kick up field.

I'd like to see if given a go as the attack does need an injection of something and the AB tactic isn't a bad one. Ruck speed and security needs a big upgrade though as that is the main element killing our attack.

by yappysnap Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:It would be madness to follow Harlequins approach to tactics when you see how well Leicesters works at international level. Just need Farrell back ASAP as Ford really struggles without someone to hold his hand. Though tbf to Ford it is a complex system.

Not your best, but still good

by doctor_grey Sun Sep 03, 2023 9:48 pm

yappysnap wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:It would be madness to follow Harlequins approach to tactics when you see how well Leicesters works at international level. Just need Farrell back ASAP as Ford really struggles without someone to hold his hand. Though tbf to Ford it is a complex system.

Not your best, but still good

6/10

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Sep 04, 2023 5:25 am

Watching a lot of previews of the World Cup, it occurred to me that I rarely turn to YouTube to re-live an England match. Probably the most recent highlights clip I'll look at is the 2019 match against NZ.

This is generally - though not exclusively - weighted towards matches we win, so the fact England have racked up a lot of losses over the last four years plays a part. However, I've watched the 2016 tour to Australia many times, yet can't get excited about the 2022 tour, even though we came out on top there too. The same goes for the Autumn Nations Cup

By contrast, I've rewatched matches without England, like the Ireland-All Blacks series, quite a few times. It really brings home what an unexciting standard of play we've produced, and how there's been no sense of momentum about the team for some time now.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Sep 04, 2023 8:27 am

Sounds like there's a few walking wounded for the weekend. Lawes curry sinckler Martin arundell daly and tuilagi all carrying knocks with greater or lesser question marks.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Sep 04, 2023 9:42 am

The three Kiwi presenters on the Breakdown have gone for three very different sets of predictions (albeit Mils Muliaina and Jeff Wilson end up at an All Black Victory). They start the segment at 45:20.

Ireland are tipped to either make the Final, or go out at the Quarter-final stage. England either don't get out of their pool, or make the semi-final.

by No 7&1/2 Mon Sep 04, 2023 4:26 pm

https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/09/rugby-world-cup-predictions-2023-opta/

This is really weird. Opta was always so reliable in the past but they seem to have completely fluffed these predictions. Don't think it can be up to date else the possession stats and number of kicks in the opposition 22 would have predicted England for the win.

by Yoda Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:22 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2023/sep/03/steve-borthwick-england-bedrocks-hard-to-beat-rugby-world-cup

Nick Evans is certainly more positive than most. Some interesting points. According to a good source many England sessions during the warmups were meetings and gym based very little time on the paddock going through patterns.

Time will tell if borthwick is a complete doofus or tactical genius.

by doctor_grey Mon Sep 04, 2023 7:27 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:https://theanalyst.com/eu/2023/09/rugby-world-cup-predictions-2023-opta/

This is really weird. Opta was always so reliable in the past but they seem to have completely fluffed these predictions. Don't think it can be up to date else the possession stats and number of kicks in the opposition 22 would have predicted England for the win.

Don't worry about this - the low numbers are part of a clever plot hatched in the immediate aftermath of the 2019 RWC to make the enemies of England over confident. If England defied the apparent odds at Crécy and Agincourt, we can do it again and again. When will they all learn?????

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:38 am

Daniel Schofield is the Telegraph's clickbait rugby correspondent, so it's usually best to take his claims with a pinch of salt. In particular, the "disquiet among a significant proportion (although not all) of the England squad at their playing style". Who knows, that may actually be true in some fashion but it would be strange for Schofield to have discovered it, and not any other pundits.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/09/04/england-rugby-world-cup-attacking-woes-player-power-farrell/

Player power could solve England’s attacking woes

Owen Farrell has had enough. A once successful tactical structure has become outdated and is leading to increasing frustration among the squad.

So he and several senior players take their concerns to the coaching group. When they resist change, the players take matters into their own hands, effectively instigating a revolt that results in the team overhauling their tactical approach. With the shackles off, the side enters the campaign with a new found sense of liberation and freedom.

This was at Saracens in the summer of 2022. Will we also see player power win the day within the England camp in September 2023?

Telegraph Sport understands that there is disquiet among a significant proportion (although not all) of the England squad at their playing style. Why wouldn’t there be? The tactics that head coach Steve Borthwick employed so successfully at Leicester, where he won the 2022 Premiership title, have conspicuously failed to translate to international level where he has won three of his nine games in charge of England.

In a twist of fate, it was Borthwick’s 2022 Premiership final victory that turbocharged the Saracens rebellion. Farrell had already forcefully voiced his reservations with Saracens tactics following the Challenge Cup semi-final defeat by Toulon that season. The coaches held their ground. But the loss to Leicester, when several players complained that they did not fire a shot, proved the tipping point for Farrell along with Elliot Daly, Jamie George and Alex Goode to insist upon imposing a far more expansive blueprint in the following preseason. Same old Sarries suddenly became swashbuckling Sarries, who finished the season as English champions.

There is a certain irony that England’s former attack coach Martin Gleeson was working to incorporate a lot of Saracens attacking structure into England’s backline play when his and Eddie Jones’s tenure was terminated last year. In came Borthwick with a set-piece-orientated, kick-heavy template that Farrell had helped to overthrow at Saracens.

Perhaps this is unfair to Borthwick who makes clear that he needed a simple, short-term template in the eight-month run-up to the World Cup. As he has shown by deploying Marcus Smith at full-back, he is not afraid of incorporating imaginative wrinkles into his gameplan. Yet that flexibility has a limit and on Monday he made clear that he was doubling down on his core principles.

“I said when I came in that England need to build a way of playing, and a consistent base,” Borthwick said. “You can’t change everything from one week to another week. You need to have a way of playing you can build upon. Ideally you can start building that post the last World Cup as most other teams have. You have seen the growth of Ireland, France, these teams have started building since then. We’re not one of them.

“We’ve been trying to build it over the past six months and in many ways, because the coaching team only came together 10 or 11 weeks ago, we’ve been trying to do this for 10 or 11 weeks. What I’ve been trying to do is strengthen the direction we’re going in and trying to get better at it.”

Borthwick insists that it is merely the execution that is letting England down. Yet on the basis of their performances and results, Borthwick seems to be relying on blind faith that the tactics will suddenly bear fruit having yielded a barren harvest up until this point.

The argument that it is too late to change course is legitimate, but there is no doubt that the players’ frustration is mounting. “Everyone is so keen to make a change,” flanker Lewis Ludlam said. “You have got voices you would not necessarily hear. The likes of Joe Marchant who has not been involved a tremendous amount in this team but he is stepping up really well and talking about how we can move this team forward. It is encouraging that we have got a lot of lads who want to step up and want to make a change.”

Of course, you can point to the parallels with 2007 when the opening round 36-0 defeat by South Africa prompted the senior leadership to take matters into their own hands, even if this was coach Brian Ashton’s ultimate goal.

Should England lose to Argentina on Saturday, as most bookmakers are predicting, then Borthwick’s methods would be even more open to question.

Sixteen years ago, it was the hard, bent noses of Lawrence Dallaglio and Phil Vickery who seized control of the steering wheel. Whether a similar hijacking of the bridge could occur today will largely depend on one man: Farrell.

Even as captain, his influence is outsized, both within the playing group and with the coaches. He is the one player who could singlehandedly force a change in course at this point.

History has shown the fly-half has successfully instigated one rebellion. With an air of mutiny in the air, it remains to be seen whether Che Farrell will have the appetite to instigate glorious revolution.

by Big Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:51 am

Nick Evans says the England team has the bedrocks of being hard to beat - why then are other teams finding it so easy to beat us?

If training patterns have changed this last couple of weeks and England are radically better against Argentina - then great. And maybe even hats off to the coaches for their risky game of training ground chicken if it means they can perform better in the latter stages and outdo expectations. Forgive me though if I'm not overflowing with confidence for this, and if I don't see the current aimless kicking as a tactical masterplan and recipe for success.

by mountain man Tue Sep 05, 2023 12:04 pm

Maybe it's all some cunning scheme to lull opposition into false security.
Personally I think team look uncertain of plan and default to kicking. Maybe that IS the plan but if so it's not working.
Big concern is players all look way off pace both in speed and basic skills which is not good.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:03 pm

Stats man Ross Hamilton is on the Flats and Shanks ITV World Cup podcast. He gives chapter and verse on England's performances to date, and it isn't pretty. Follow the Twitter link to the podcast, and he starts talking specifically about England from about the 12 minute mark.

https://twitter.com/ITVRugby/status/1698999988666122698

Scotland and Ireland have some good numbers, Wales less so...

by mountain man Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:07 pm

I like the Flats and Shanks pods, really good stuff if a bit heavy on the off topic waffle. I'll have a listen

by carpet baboon Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:10 pm

mountain man wrote:I like the Flats and Shanks pods, really good stuff if a bit heavy on the off topic waffle. I'll have a listen

If you want a very off topic waffle with a very Irish bias I can highly recommend the Potholes and Penguins pod.
It's by Andrew Trimble and Barry Murphy.
A fantastic and odd look at modern rugby, and aliens, and movies, and shoees

by Poorfour Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:32 pm

Big wrote:Nick Evans says the England team has the bedrocks of being hard to beat - why then are other teams finding it so easy to beat us?

If training patterns have changed this last couple of weeks and England are radically better against Argentina - then great. And maybe even hats off to the coaches for their risky game of training ground chicken if it means they can perform better in the latter stages and outdo expectations. Forgive me though if I'm not overflowing with confidence for this, and if I don't see the current aimless kicking as a tactical masterplan and recipe for success.

The optimistic hypothesis is:
- Aled Walters was still running a heavy training load during the warm ups - which is consistent with some of the articles written from journos in the camp, and with England's pattern of a good first 30-40 with a big drop in the second half
- England's defence was actually pretty good during their first halves - only Ireland were ahead - and several of the tries scored against them came from timing issues, usually defenders pushing wide too early or in a disconnected manner. That's the sort of thing that can stem from tiredness and is also relatively easy to fix.
- England were doing a reasonable job of getting into the opposition 22 - what they lacked was the ability to finish.

None of those are insurmountable and all of them could be improved by a couple of weeks of tapering and positoonal work.

Against that, we have to set:
- The number of injured players in the squad
- The issues in the back three (Malins has been poor at finishing and is defensively prone to going missing; the combination of relatively weak tackling on the wings and Steward's positioning / pacing issues)
- The lack of power in the forwards, especially until Billy is back and actually performing well

by king_carlos Tue Sep 05, 2023 1:45 pm

Injuries are a big concern. Particularly back row and back three now.

Watson is a massive loss to an already weak back three. Daly was probably the next best over the warmups, I thought he actually played well in poor team performances. But he's apparently struggling with an injury too.

Lawes is reportedly still recovering from a knock. Whilst Turry has always been touch and go for R1. I honestly think Turry is so much better than our other flankers that you need to take him even if he would miss the Argentina game. It's worth the risk for me. I'd have replaced Billy after the ban. Despite probably looking the best 8 in the Prem he looked nearly as dismal as Dombrandt upon his return. Or I'd have left out Martin, had Lawes covering lock as 4th choice and taken Pearson. As highly as I rate Pearson he undeniably fell away after a strong start against Wales though. He showed that physicality early on then drifted out the game. I wish they'd looked at Underhill in the warmups now.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 05, 2023 2:24 pm

Underhill was name checked as being back to his 2019 best wasn't he? And reportedly not on the standby list.

by lostinwales Tue Sep 05, 2023 3:40 pm

It is the finishing that is just non existent. Seeing May's try vs Fiji makes you realise how much we have been missing for a long time. The mauls vs Fiji - none of them worked which is just appalling at this level.

by king_carlos Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:13 pm

I don't think the coaches name checked Underhill themselves. There was one of the Inside Line mini-docs that focused on Underhill and Curry. He looked in seriously good shape there. It seemed more journalists commenting that he looked back to full fitness.

When Underhill did play last season I thought he was really good. His Prem form has sometimes been underwhelming before strong England performances. Whereas his return against Gloucester for instance was immediately impressive.

He's had so many injuries that there may well have been justifiable questions about getting him through the tournament though. Particularly with Curry still rehabbing. Underhill's defensive work is so good that I wish they'd at least had a look in a warmup game though.

by king_carlos Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:24 pm

As I sent that the Beeb are running that Turry will be fit for R1. Which is huge. I'd say he's England's best player by a margin at the moment.

Indy running that Sinfield said today that the squad have a "clean bill of health". Which is a sizable improvement from Curry, Lawes, Sinckler, Martin, Daly and Arundell all carrying knocks. Curry was the only player not to feature in the warmups, whilst the others were reported as shorter term issues so it is possible they are all available.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:53 pm

king_carlos wrote:I don't think the coaches name checked Underhill themselves. There was one of the Inside Line mini-docs that focused on Underhill and Curry. He looked in seriously good shape there. It seemed more journalists commenting that he looked back to full fitness.

When Underhill did play last season I thought he was really good. His Prem form has sometimes been underwhelming before strong England performances. Whereas his return against Gloucester for instance was immediately impressive.

He's had so many injuries that there may well have been justifiable questions about getting him through the tournament though. Particularly with Curry still rehabbing. Underhill's defensive work is so good that I wish they'd at least had a look in a warmup game though.

Borthwick: ' I'm really excited. I was talking to Sam yesterday. He's had a challenging period with injuries over the second half of the season, but when I watched him train - and we trained on the same field in 2019 - and chatted with Richard Hill, who is an incredible rugby brain, we agreed that it was the Sam of 2019 out there. He's been tremendous.'

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:55 pm

Good to hear that we're free to select the top guys though. Can't wait for Saturday after the slow burning which is bound to be France NZ! Feels like the tournament has snuck up quite quickly now.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Sep 05, 2023 4:58 pm

Reading between the lines, Curry at 8?

by Poorfour Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:45 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Reading between the lines, Curry at 8?

Yes! Let's also play Marler at tighthead, Martin in the row, Itoje at 6, May at 7, Manu at 12, Marchant on the wing and Smith at fullback. The opposition won't know what's hit them.

by TheMildlyFranticLlama Tue Sep 05, 2023 7:49 pm

king_carlos wrote:As I sent that the Beeb are running that Turry will be fit for R1. Which is huge. I'd say he's England's best player by a margin at the moment.

Indy running that Sinfield said today that the squad have a "clean bill of health". Which is a sizable improvement from Curry, Lawes, Sinckler, Martin, Daly and Arundell all carrying knocks. Curry was the only player not to feature in the warmups, whilst the others were reported as shorter term issues so it is possible they are all available.

Your commitment to trying to make this a thing is commendable. In fact the battle of who has the more stamina, you or 7&1/2, is becoming one of those lovely little matches within a match that pundits love to talk about. We should start taking bets!

by king_carlos Tue Sep 05, 2023 9:24 pm

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
king_carlos wrote:As I sent that the Beeb are running that Turry will be fit for R1. Which is huge. I'd say he's England's best player by a margin at the moment.

Indy running that Sinfield said today that the squad have a "clean bill of health". Which is a sizable improvement from Curry, Lawes, Sinckler, Martin, Daly and Arundell all carrying knocks. Curry was the only player not to feature in the warmups, whilst the others were reported as shorter term issues so it is possible they are all available.

Your commitment to trying to make this a thing is commendable. In fact the battle of who has the more stamina, you or 7&1/2, is becoming one of those lovely little matches within a match that pundits love to talk about. We should start taking bets!

It's born out of my cricket posting where you have Surran and Turran (the Curran brothers). I like it. I've even noticed others on the Tigers unoffy take it up.

Nothing can quite contend with the Scotland threads here for random sporting nicknames though I do concede. At times when I skim through some posts there I don't know if I'm accidently reading about the wrong sport or having another psychotic break.

by doctor_grey Tue Sep 05, 2023 11:08 pm

king_carlos wrote:
TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:
king_carlos wrote:As I sent that the Beeb are running that Turry will be fit for R1. Which is huge. I'd say he's England's best player by a margin at the moment.

Indy running that Sinfield said today that the squad have a "clean bill of health". Which is a sizable improvement from Curry, Lawes, Sinckler, Martin, Daly and Arundell all carrying knocks. Curry was the only player not to feature in the warmups, whilst the others were reported as shorter term issues so it is possible they are all available.

Your commitment to trying to make this a thing is commendable. In fact the battle of who has the more stamina, you or 7&1/2, is becoming one of those lovely little matches within a match that pundits love to talk about. We should start taking bets!
It's born out of my cricket posting where you have Surran and Turran (the Curran brothers). I like it. I've even noticed others on the Tigers unoffy take it up.

Nothing can quite contend with the Scotland threads here for random sporting nicknames though I do concede. At times when I skim through some posts there I don't know if I'm accidently reading about the wrong sport or having another psychotic break.

Well, mate, if you haven't suffered a psychotic episode by now, just wait until England steps on the pitch at the RWC.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:05 am

Telegraph reckons Tom Curry will start against Argentina. In interviews, Sinfield has suggested Curry's absence is one reason the defence has underperformed, so perhaps the coaches are willing to discount his lack of game time to bolster that area.

by formerly known as Sam Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:59 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph reckons Tom Curry will start against Argentina. In interviews, Sinfield has suggested Curry's absence is one reason the defence has underperformed, so perhaps the coaches are willing to discount his lack of game time to bolster that area.

The backrow has been disappointing so far and the pack could do with some real class so hopefully he's back to fitness. If he can lead the defence around the fringes that would help as it's generally key to how Sinfield runs his defence.

by king_carlos Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:00 pm

Torygraph running:

Mitchell and Cole starting. May on one wing. Care ahead of Youngs on the bench. Lawes, Curry and Earl expected to be the back row.

Steward at 15, so no Smith at fullback to start though I suspect he'll come on there again to get two playmakers later in the game.

They usually get their predictions correct the day before it's officially announced.

by Duty281 Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:48 pm

Some surprising selections there. If you want to be kind, Borthwick is rolling the dice, because why not? If you don't wish to be kind, you might say Borthwick hasn't got a clue what's he doing, and is just hoping he lands on the correct combination of players.

by Poorfour Wed Sep 06, 2023 1:53 pm

The only real surprise there is Cole starting, which may be because Sinckler isn't 100% and they want to start with a strong scrummager before risking Stuart.

by mountain man Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:03 pm

Lawes Curry Earl is what I'd expect back row to be and probably best bet at moment. Earl at 8 btw not Curry
Scrum a real concern though, I said pre warm ups I wasn't confident but quite a few herre say otherwise. I hope I'm wrong

by king_carlos Wed Sep 06, 2023 2:58 pm

I'd agree that Cole is the only real surprise.

Mitchell obviously came in as de facto 4th choice as he wasn't in the initial squad. So could be seen as a surprise. He was backed ahead of Youngs for most of the Six Nations though and his performance against Fiji was probably the best of the SHs in the warmups. As bleak a picture as that may paint. As said many times I'd have had JvP, Mitchell and Quirke (even with the injuries) as my first three in the original squad though.

Otherwise, I was expecting Lawes, Curry and Earl to be the back row if available. I'd pick Ludlam at 8 ahead of Earl but his curious absence after being the best player in the first warmup suggested that was unlikely. Earl had good moments in the warmups but he and Willis went worryingly AWOL against Ireland.

Loosehead is a relative weakness in the Argentina pack. Thomas Gallo has been first choice under Cheika but is generally behind Chaparro at Treviso. Chaparro is now injured. So Gloucester man Mayco Vivas is the reserve. Ignacio Calles was tipped to come through this year prior to injury. He's impressed for Pau and debuted last season. Perhaps they simply view Cole as the best matchup against Gallo. He's very much on the shorter and lighter side for a modern prop and is viewed as having decent technique. From what I've seen Gallo wouldn't put him near the same class as Danillo Fischetti though who has carved out a niche for himself as a smaller but technically excellent player in a position rapidly shifting towards giants.

As much as Will Stuart has been very up and down I do think there's talent there and personally I'd just back him even with those flaws. He's learning on the big stage as the Prem can only develop players so far currently whilst Champions Cup opportunities aren't in competitive sides. Having a player learning on the job at TH isn't ideal but I think I'd just bite the bullet and risk it given the limitations of the current system to develop players and the relatively bare cupboard in his position.

by hugehandoff Wed Sep 06, 2023 3:38 pm

Telegraph undecided between Marchant and Lawrence outside Manu.

Probable England team to face Argentina
Steward; May, Marchant/Lawrence, Tuilagi, Daly; Ford, Mitchell; Genge, George, Cole, Itoje, Chessum, Lawes, Curry, Earl.

by lostinwales Wed Sep 06, 2023 4:22 pm

Be good to see Daly instead of Malins too

by Geordie Wed Sep 06, 2023 8:49 pm

I'm just waiting for a clear out post WC....and pray that some of the kids come through well in the prem and further.

Just thinking about our current tighthead debacle alone makes me depressed.

And sorry KC I just don't see Stuart doing anything....and sinckler has never been a force since he left Quins...Dan Cole ..oh dear lord.

Then all the rest of the positions rhay are lacking quality.

Murley, Radwan...tries scorers on rhe wing...but nope...Malins...not a winger and woeful at this level.

For once Clive Woodward is right!! England are on a precipice and need to turn around.

by Yoda Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:45 pm

Geordie wrote:I'm just waiting for a clear out post WC....and pray that some of the kids come through well in the prem and further.

Just thinking about our current tighthead debacle alone makes me depressed.

And sorry KC I just don't see Stuart doing anything....and sinckler has never been a force since he left Quins...Dan Cole ..oh dear lord.

Then all the rest of the positions rhay are lacking quality.

Murley, Radwan...tries scorers on rhe wing...but nope...Malins...not a winger and woeful at this level.

For once Clive Woodward is right!! England are on a precipice and need to turn around.

We were saying this back in 2008 ish when we had noon and Hopkins etc then we had a glut of decent u20s. Swings and roundabouts.

by yappysnap Wed Sep 06, 2023 9:49 pm

king_carlos wrote:Torygraph running:

Mitchell and Cole starting. May on one wing. Care ahead of Youngs on the bench. Lawes, Curry and Earl expected to be the back row.

Steward at 15, so no Smith at fullback to start though I suspect he'll come on there again to get two playmakers later in the game.

They usually get their predictions correct the day before it's officially announced.

Lol, it's 2023 and we're going into the RWC with Cole, Manu and May starting, and still talking about who's ahead between Care and Youngs. Some things never change.

Honestly I really hope we don't make it out of the pool as that means there has to be change, and it'll mean some actual interesting teams get through! Honestly feels like most of the other teams in our pool deserve to go through more than we do, and i'll enjoy watching them play a lot more than I would watching England do... whatever it is they do.

by Geordie Wed Sep 06, 2023 10:06 pm

Yoda wrote:
Geordie wrote:I'm just waiting for a clear out post WC....and pray that some of the kids come through well in the prem and further.

Just thinking about our current tighthead debacle alone makes me depressed.

And sorry KC I just don't see Stuart doing anything....and sinckler has never been a force since he left Quins...Dan Cole ..oh dear lord.

Then all the rest of the positions rhay are lacking quality.

Murley, Radwan...tries scorers on rhe wing...but nope...Malins...not a winger and woeful at this level.

For once Clive Woodward is right!! England are on a precipice and need to turn around.

We were saying this back in 2008 ish when we had noon and Hopkins etc then we had a glut of decent u20s. Swings and roundabouts.

so Is the issue the transition from Senior Academy to seniors?

by hugehandoff Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:43 am

Geordie wrote:
Yoda wrote:
Geordie wrote:I'm just waiting for a clear out post WC....and pray that some of the kids come through well in the prem and further.

Just thinking about our current tighthead debacle alone makes me depressed.

And sorry KC I just don't see Stuart doing anything....and sinckler has never been a force since he left Quins...Dan Cole ..oh dear lord.

Then all the rest of the positions rhay are lacking quality.

Murley, Radwan...tries scorers on rhe wing...but nope...Malins...not a winger and woeful at this level.

For once Clive Woodward is right!! England are on a precipice and need to turn around.

We were saying this back in 2008 ish when we had noon and Hopkins etc then we had a glut of decent u20s. Swings and roundabouts.
so Is the issue the transition from Senior Academy to seniors?

Yes it is...the lack of a good pathway, but the problem also lies with the academies themselves. They obsess over size and the ability to deliver players to the 1st XV in short time resulting in many talented youngsters and late developers being overlooked. The pathway from school and junior rugby to senior needs a lot of work.

by Oakdene Thu Sep 07, 2023 8:46 am

As poor as England have been in the build up, I just cannot imagine that they will be as poor during the World Cup.

by Collapse2005 Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:35 am

Oakdene wrote:As poor as England have been in the build up, I just cannot imagine that they will be as poor during the World Cup.

England could go on a run. I wouldnt bet against it and I wouldnt bet against a winner coming from England's side of the draw, it wouldnt be a shock if either England, Australia or Argentina made the final. Most teams including SA struggle to put together three big performances against three big sides.

by nlpnlp Thu Sep 07, 2023 9:49 am

South Africa will be going into the QFs off the back of a game against Tonga and New Zealand against Uraguay - Ireland and France have slightly tougher last pool games. So whilst the QF games will be tough for teams in Pool A and B, by the time they meet England/Australia/Wales/Fiji in the Semi Finals they will be in prime form - battle hardened, but not knackered.

I don't disagree that being in the easy half of the draw is the main hope for England, I just don't see any of the likely semi finalists from pools C and D having the quality to beat a South Africa, New Zealand, France or Ireland.

by Poorfour Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:00 am

hugehandoff wrote:
Yes it is...the lack of a good pathway, but the problem also lies with the academies themselves. They obsess over size and the ability to deliver players to the 1st XV in short time resulting in many talented youngsters and late developers being overlooked. The pathway from school and junior rugby to senior needs a lot of work.

I don't know if this is also the case in the boy's youth game, but at the girls' U16 county trials this season they were explicit that the RFU had asked them to select on handling and skills rather than size and power.

(Though it looks like there might have been a bit of an exception for front rows - a couple of years ago some of the counties didn't select enough props and had to go back to players they'd rejected to ask if they'd like to join the squad... this year they were very careful to check which girls were willing to play front row).

I also know the Quins academy has historically focused on skills and game understanding, albeit with an eye on who might grow into a forwards role (Sinckler was a 10/15 when he first joined the academy, but they knew from day 1 he'd never be fast enough and were just waiting to see if he would fill out).

by formerly known as Sam Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:23 am

Poorfour wrote:
hugehandoff wrote:
Yes it is...the lack of a good pathway, but the problem also lies with the academies themselves. They obsess over size and the ability to deliver players to the 1st XV in short time resulting in many talented youngsters and late developers being overlooked. The pathway from school and junior rugby to senior needs a lot of work.

I don't know if this is also the case in the boy's youth game, but at the girls' U16 county trials this season they were explicit that the RFU had asked them to select on handling and skills rather than size and power.

(Though it looks like there might have been a bit of an exception for front rows - a couple of years ago some of the counties didn't select enough props and had to go back to players they'd rejected to ask if they'd like to join the squad... this year they were very careful to check which girls were willing to play front row).

I also know the Quins academy has historically focused on skills and game understanding, albeit with an eye on who might grow into a forwards role (Sinckler was a 10/15 when he first joined the academy, but they knew from day 1 he'd never be fast enough and were just waiting to see if he would fill out).

I think the size thing died off a few years back like you say but it does take a while got things to filter through to the senior level.

I know a coach who was part of a set up with a Prem club and he saw the academy intake selection first hand and a player cut adrift on the basis that he butchered two or three overlaps. Didn't have the awareness to see the space, wasn't taken on.

by Sgt_Pooly Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:29 am

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned, but Ben Redshaw (Falcon inside centre and England U18 captain) has been called up to train with England in France.

I quite like this....the lad has obviously been seen as a potential future international and giving him this experience will do him no harm at all.

by nlpnlp Thu Sep 07, 2023 10:56 am

I am not saying it is a bad thing that a young player is brought in to train with England, but particularly under Eddie Jones we saw no end of 'apprentices' or unknown players being brought into training who subsequently disappeared. I would have thought it would have been more useful to have the likes of Dan Kelly, Will Joseph, etc in camp as tackle bag holders.

by mikey_dragon Thu Sep 07, 2023 11:02 am

One of those was Sam Moore. Vanished, moved to Wales... vanished again.

by king_carlos Thu Sep 07, 2023 12:25 pm

I really like that practice of having young players in to train. The ABs started it under Henry. I think it's a great thing to show them those standards early, let them take it on board and hopefully develop.

I believe a lot of nations actually do similar now. There's more focus and media on England's training stuff though which means it gets reported on when really it'd probably be better if this stuff just goes on behind the scenes. That way players such as Redshaw get exposure to the senior squads training intensity without the added expectation of being an "apprentice player".

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