Scotland - The Generic Moaning Thread 2024

[George Carlin]

First topic message reminder :

Scotland v Tonga
Sunday, September 24
Stade de Nice - 4.45pm kick-off.

Scotland v Romania
Saturday, September 30
Stade Pierre-Mauroy, Lille - 8pm kick-off

Scotland v Paddy Cousins
Saturday, October 7
Stade de France - 8pm kick-off

***

The 20 teams are divided into four groups as follows:

Pool A – New Zealand, France, Italy, Uruguay, Namibia

Pool B – South Africa, Ireland, Scotland, Tonga, Romania

Pool C – Wales, Australia, Fiji, Georgia, Portugal

Pool D – England, Japan, Argentina, Samoa, Chile

The top two teams from each pool advance to the quarter-finals. The teams who finish third secure automatic qualification for the 2027 World Cup, which is scheduled to take place in Australia in 2027.

The quarter-final draw is as follows:

QF1 – Pool C winner v Pool D runner-up

QF 2 – Pool B winner v Pool A runner-up

QF 3 – Pool D winner v Pool C runner-up

QF 4 – Pool A winner v Pool B runner-up

That means if Scotland manage to progress from the group stages they would be likely to face New Zealand or France in the quarter-finals if results go as expected.

The semi-final draw is as follows:

Winner of QF 1 v Winner of QF2

Winner of QF 3 v Winner of QF 4

The 2023 Rugby World Cup final takes place on Saturday, October 28, at the Stade de France, kick-off 8pm.

[funnyExiledScot]

Try and an assist from Matthews. Worth a bench spot?

[Heaf]

We need to turn the screw now. Lift the intensity and drive it home. Points difference could be massive

I think it's only likely to come into play if Scotland beat Ireland with 5-1 match points ...

[funnyExiledScot]

That quick throw just cost Matthews another try!!

[Mcsweens]

It's kinda immoral how big the gap is between Tier 1 and Tier 2/3 now.

[funnyExiledScot]

A small margin above par for me. Graham was different class.

We are all Tongans now!!

[BigGee]

FT 84-0 Scotland

I can't complain about that

A few players, Redpath & Watson in particular, put their hands up for selection next week!

[funnyExiledScot]

FT 84-0 Scotland

I can't complain about that

A few players, Redpath & Watson in particular, put their hands up for selection next week!

I'd pop Watson on the bench ahead of Fagerson. Better impact.

[Heaf]

So I reckon most likely outcome is Scotland either need to beat Ireland with 4-0 match points, or 5-1 match points and by 13 or more?

[Heaf]

That's assuming SA tonk Tonga of course ...

[tigertattie]

If Tonga can stop SA from scoring 4 tries, oh what a last weekend it will be.

Surely we and Ireland will club together so we both go through. We’re cousins after all.

[Geordie]

Well done Scotland now do us all a favour and beat Ireland next week.

[tigertattie]

Well done Scotland now do us all a favour and beat Ireland next week.

By more than 8 points and without letting them score 4 tries

[Mcsweens]

So I reckon most likely outcome is Scotland either need to beat Ireland with 4-0 match points, or 5-1 match points and by 13 or more?

We really can't afford to give Ireland a bonus point. If there is a 3-way tie on 15 points, then the winner will be decided on points scored. This won't be Scotland. If it's Ireland with the best points difference, they go through as group winners, and South Africa go through in 2nd, having won the head to head against Scotland.

If South Africa fail to get the bonus point against Tonga, though, the possibilities for banter results are almost endless.

[Geordie]

Well done Scotland now do us all a favour and beat Ireland next week.

By more than 8 points and without letting them score 4 tries

That'll do nicely thank you

[Heaf]

So I reckon most likely outcome is Scotland either need to beat Ireland with 4-0 match points, or 5-1 match points and by 13 or more?

We really can't afford to give Ireland a bonus point. If there is a 3-way tie on 15 points, then the winner will be decided on points scored. This won't be Scotland. If it's Ireland with the best points difference, they go through as group winners, and South Africa go through in 2nd, having won the head to head against Scotland.

If South Africa fail to get the bonus point against Tonga, though, the possibilities for banter results are almost endless.

If Scotland beat Ireland by 13 or more they'll have the better PD won't they?

[Heaf]

Well done Scotland now do us all a favour and beat Ireland next week.

By more than 8 points and without letting them score 4 tries

More than 7 isn't it? Or Get a TBP and stop them getting both a TBP and LBP and win by more than 12 points?

[Heaf]

Of course all this depends on the score tomorrow ... if PD only decides the pool winner in a 3 way split and then it goes to head to head then a big score for SA helps Scotland ...

[alive555]

Hamish starts.

That's it. He's that important. Done deal

[neilthom7]

I'd love to see Scotland go through with Ireland, how do we make that happen? Sorry South Africa it's nothing personal, got to stick together with our celtic cousins

[tigertattie]

I'd love to see Scotland go through with Ireland, how do we make that happen? Sorry South Africa it's nothing personal, got to stick together with our celtic cousins

If Tonga stop SA from scoring 4 tries tomorrow then Ireland can let Scotland win with a TBP and Scotland can let Ireland get a LBP or also score 4 tries. Ireland and Scotland through with 15 points, SA out on 14

[neilthom7]

Right Tonga do your job tomorrow and then I'll give Andy a ring sure

[Heaf]

It would also be possible if Scotland beat Ireland and neither get bonus points, but would depend on the score tomorrow in terms of PD as SA currently have the lowest ...

[RDW]

https://www.606v2.com/t71240-ireland-vs-scotland

Well that game probably went as good as it could have and gave Toonie exactly what he would be looking for  - a selection headache. We of course have to take the quality of opposition into account, but certainly the likes of Watson and Harris will be causing serious bald head scratching over the next few days.

[tigertattie]

Come on Tonga.

Mind they don’t need to win. If they camp in the SA 22 most of the game it can stop SA getting 4 tries.

[tigertattie]

Soooo

Pretty much went as expected. The thrashing we gave Romania ignited the hope levels again but really we weren’t ever getting out the group.

Ireland and South Africa, as well as being very good teams are just the worst teams for us to play against as we just struggle when we face powerful teams who throw up the big brick wall.

There’s calls already for Toonie to go. Who would do a better job though? I can’t see anyone getting any more out of the team. We also still struggle with the refs and the rub of the green

Over the whole group stage and also the warm up games I really felt our midfield weren’t working. Sione appears to be a one season wonder and Jones just isn’t at the races. Hopefully we start to look more at Redpath at 12 going forward as I think he works better with Finn.

We still lack a monster of a carrier. Someone to punch holes at will into a defensive line.

We’ve got 12 months to stay in the top 8 which really we should do and then we should (should) get a far better draw for the next World Cup.

For now, come on Fiji!!!!!!

[NeilyBroon]

I think Toonie needs to go not so much in he's done a particularly bad job but like he inherited from VC to evolve the side, I think he's reached his limit. Franco Smith needs to stay at Glasgow, not sure who else is about but there'll be a few post WC. I can't see us winning a 6ns under Toonie, that ship has sailed. We need a new perspective from someone with a different mentality.

[Mcsweens]

We can't ditch Toonie. He's just signed a new deal and we're not Glasgow Rangers rich or daft.

[NeilyBroon]

Not saying we get rid but Toonie should take the responsibility and just resign. Arguably we wouldn't be in this pool if it weren't for how awful we were under Toonie MK1.5.

He won't though, I can't see us psychologically bouncing back. A top 8 posting pre draw may be somewhat more difficult than we think.

[Mcsweens]

My perspective is that Sione did well, and that Jones really didn't.
Smith isn't international standard in terms of skill and temperament. Russell again showed his class. If he had the platform the Irish pack provided, he'd show he's much better than Sexton.

The Irish performance is an expression of everything they've done off the field in terms of set up and organisation over the last 20 years. It is extremely impressive. I know they rely a lot on the Dublin private schools, and the 4 province template, however their levels of talent identification and development are light years ahead of us. Their base is much much broader.

We need to go down this youth development road, and be explicit about this being the best use of our resources rather than spending big bucks on Sione's wee bro, for example. It's a 20 year project...and given the state of our u20s plenty more pain to come.

[NeilyBroon]

My perspective is that Sione did well, and that Jones really didn't.
Smith isn't international standard in terms of skill and temperament. Russell again showed his class. If he had the platform the Irish pack provided, he'd show he's much better than Sexton.

The Irish performance is an expression of everything they've done off the field in terms of set up and organisation over the last 20 years. It is extremely impressive. I know they rely a lot on the Dublin private schools, and the 4 province template, however their levels of talent identification and development are light years ahead of us. Their base is much much broader.

We need to go down this youth development road, and be explicit about this being the best use of our resources rather than spending big bucks on Sione's wee bro, for example. It's a 20 year project...and given the state of our u20s plenty more pain to come.

We're that far into the dire straits to be fair I'm half expecting the new Scotland anthem to be 'twisting by the pool'.

What Jim Mallinder is doing I have no idea.

[Mcsweens]

Not saying we get rid but Toonie should take the responsibility and just resign. Arguably we wouldn't be in this pool if it weren't for how awful we were under Toonie MK1.5.

He won't though, I can't see us psychologically bouncing back. A top 8 posting pre draw may be somewhat more difficult than we think.

Ah now, ye can't be blaming Townsend today for things that happened 3 years ago.

Townsend resigning is...not a realistic expectation. He is limited, but he has shown the capacity to develop and evolve as a coach.

He has also been backed in his most recent incarnation. It would be a monumental admission of incompetence by the SRU to allow him to go now.

Also, we've just lost to a very very good team. I think we'll have to wait until the end of the tournament to put it into context, but Ireland definitely look like a top 3 team (at least), and will go against the All Blacks as favourites. It's really Poopie to still be feeling the effects of our botched transition to professionalism 30 years on, but that we are. We are as of now, a smaller rugby nation that Ireland and it will take 20 years of work behind the scenes to make a dent into that.

[bsando]

The physicality at the top level is just insane now. But ultimately the SRU will now be thinking about their next Scotland coach. Two years is a good length of time to find a good one.

Toonie is a good coach but Scotland need someone else for the next World Cup.

[RDW]

What's the definition of insanity again?

We've been here many times after games like this and hoping that next time we'll learn our lessons. Instead Townsend's tactics appeared to be to do exactly the same as what we tried - and failed - previously. I.e. play fast and loose and try and attack early. Try and get tries early. Needless to say it didn't work and the Irish defence swallowed us up with ease, as they have done the last 8 games...

But how do you beat Ireland? What are the correct tactics that we should have taken?

For me there are some key points:

- Ireland are incredibly difficult to break down, but particularly so in the first half
- games open up in the last 20 minutes and even the Irish lose intensity and organisation
- Scotland are very strong late in the game with broken field runners who can get tries

So what does that point to? For me I'd like to see us develop a gameplan that increases the chances of being in touch with 20 to go. I.e. don't go high risk 100 MPH from minute 1 but play conservative - take the points, play territory, fan out your defense so Ireland have to kick back to you, keep the ball away from your own 22. If you can do that and be in touch with 20 to go then we have a chance.

Much easier said than done of course, but at least it's something different to try instead of trying the same thing time after time every game!

[Mcsweens]

What's the definition of insanity again?

We've been here many times after games like this and hoping that next time we'll learn our lessons. Instead Townsend's tactics appeared to be to do exactly the same as what we tried - and failed - previously. I.e. play fast and loose and try and attack early. Try and get tries early. Needless to say it didn't work and the Irish defence swallowed us up with ease, as they have done the last 8 games...

But how do you beat Ireland? What are the correct tactics that we should have taken?

For me there are some key points:

- Ireland are incredibly difficult to break down, but particularly so in the first half
- games open up in the last 20 minutes and even the Irish lose intensity and organisation
- Scotland are very strong late in the game with broken field runners who can get tries

So what does that point to? For me I'd like to see us develop a gameplan that increases the chances of being in touch with 20 to go. I.e. don't go high risk 100 MPH from minute 1 but play conservative - take the points, play territory, fan out your defense so Ireland have to kick back to you, keep the ball away from your own 22. If you can do that and be in touch with 20 to go then we have a chance.

Much easier said than done of course, but at least it's something different to try instead of trying the same thing time after time every game!

Yeah, would have been more sensible to take the points early. I get what they were trying to do - get the bonus point etc - but I think a more confident and mature approach would be to build a lead. It was a bit embarrassing watching them batter away and then see their heads drop.

[RDW]

And for f*#@ sake sort out the lineout

[bsando]

Agreed! The plan seems to continually mutate under Townsend but ultimately at its core is Toonies love of expansive rugby. The six nations was great in that Scotland executed under pressure across numerous games but that was largely absent during the World Cup. I wanted to see a plan against Ireland but they got swallowed up. As Rory best put it, their heads dropped when 18 phases of attack failed and they almost gave up then and there.

[Duty281]

Commiserations to Scotland. Got shafted by the group they were put in, and would have got out of the other two groups if you swapped them around with Wales or England. No disgrace in coming up short against Ireland and South Africa.

[alive555]

Congratulations irleand

The bad news is this almost the end of Scottish rugby as we kkw it.

No money, no clubs

Finished as a sport

[RiscaGame]

Commiserations to Scotland. Got shafted by the group they were put in, and would have got out of the other two groups if you swapped them around with Wales or England. No disgrace in coming up short against Ireland and South Africa.

Nobody can say that, with any grain of truth to it. There’s a clear top four and there’s not a clear fifth as was suggested here.

Scotland could easily have lost to Fiji and Australia or Argentina and Japan (again). It’s massively bluffing to say otherwise. They didn’t get out of their last group, so why should anybody assume a different group might’ve been kinder?

I love Scotland, but any draw shouldn’t mean an automatic passage through the groups.

[alive555]

If your are prepared to pay your ceo 2 or 3 times the money other nations pay for producing half the number of teams you should expect the business to go bankrupt

On the pitch and off it

[NeilyBroon]

We're headed back in time to 2005 lads.

Poor execution, battering the line with absolutely zero success, or panicking.

What's not leaving the bitter taste is failing to leave the group, but failing to fire a shot against any big opposition.

When all you've got to take home is a hard fought win against Tonga and a walk in against Romania there's something that's gone seriously awry.

Once again our basics have been lacking, our set piece... Wtf happened?? Its just disintegrated over the last 6 months. This is why I think toonie (and others ) should be the ones shouldering this. I get that teams are cyclical in form but we've watched our best generation of players fail almost every world cup apart from 2015... When Toonie wasn't coach...

Dalziel also needs to go or we need a specialist in, the forwards have been absolutely dire this world cup apart from a couple. They've not become bad players overnight, something just isn't working.

[Mcsweens]

Commiserations to Scotland. Got shafted by the group they were put in, and would have got out of the other two groups if you swapped them around with Wales or England. No disgrace in coming up short against Ireland and South Africa.

Nobody can say that, with any grain of truth to it. There’s a clear top four and there’s not a clear fifth as was suggested here.

Scotland could easily have lost to Fiji and Australia or Argentina and Japan (again). It’s massively bluffing to say otherwise. They didn’t get out of their last group, so why should anybody assume a different group might’ve been kinder?

I love Scotland, but any draw shouldn’t mean an automatic passage through the groups.

I think if you look at Scotland's previous results against Ireland and South Africa you'd expect them to lose.

Equally if you look at previous results against Japan, Fiji, Australia, Argentina, the Scotland would be expected to win.

No one is suggesting an automatic passage. I think not holding the WC draw 3 years in advance is a reasonable suggestion, though.

[George Carlin]

The reason that Townsend has to go is because 1. He clearly cannot make the team any better than he has and 2. Without a new senior coach with new perspectives, the younger players in the squad are going to be badly damaged by the mental load of having capitulated so completely against other teams and having no reason to believe the next Tier 1 games will be any different.

The problem is mental as much as physical now. We need another plan in addition to ‘go wide fast’ because once teams structure their defense accordingly we have nothing else to try - Tom English is 100% right.

[Mcsweens]

If your are prepared to pay your ceo 2 or 3 times the money other nations pay for producing half the number of teams you should expect the business to go bankrupt

On the pitch and off it

I blame Ruth Davidson, personally (joke).

Seriously, Dodson is paid an obscene amount though. He has the force of personality to push through change however, which was arguably always our achilles heel. I think it's now clear enough where the bottlenecks are in our game now. How we invest in the grassroots to grow the game is the next big challenge, now that we have achieved relative financial stability.

Its tricky for Dodson though, because he will be acutely aware that he needs the crowds to keep turning up to watch a winning team at Murrayfield, which will encourage short-term thinking and spending on his part.

[bsando]

I doubt any of us were considering his position this time yesterday because we all expected Scotland to put in their best performance. How can he continue after such a categorical failure? Resigning would be the honourable course of action.

[Mcsweens]

The reason that Townsend has to go is because 1. He clearly cannot make the team any better than he has and 2. Without a new senior coach with new perspectives, the younger players in the squad are going to be badly damaged by the mental load of having capitulated so completely against other teams and having no reason to believe the next Tier 1 games will be any different.

The problem is mental as much as physical now. We need another plan in addition to ‘go wide fast’ because once teams structure their defense accordingly we have nothing else to try - Tom English is 100% right.

Did we capitulate? Really? I'll have to watch it again but on first viewing I thought we showed a lot of fight. We just got handed a hard lesson from a much better team. I think there is a recurrent issue around believing our own hype though. We need to manage the mental load differently, but as a player if you can't handle taking a lesson then maybe rugby isn't for you. Ireland are playing a different game, psychologically. They are streets ahead. Look at the way Sheehan reacted to being pushed over the advertising hoarding. He just walked away. Incredible restraint. Contrast that with Ollie Smith, who really deserves to be dropped for a while for his trip.

Nothing in the last 24hours was a revelation about Townsend. If the board are going to fork out £1.5m to buy him out now, then they should be outside selling matchday programmes rather than running a professional national org.

[RDW]

The reason that Townsend has to go is because 1. He clearly cannot make the team any better than he has and 2. Without a new senior coach with new perspectives, the younger players in the squad are going to be badly damaged by the mental load of having capitulated so completely against other teams and having no reason to believe the next Tier 1 games will be any different.

The problem is mental as much as physical now. We need another plan in addition to ‘go wide fast’ because once teams structure their defense accordingly we have nothing else to try - Tom English is 100% right.

Did we capitulate? Really? I'll have to watch it again but on first viewing I thought we showed a lot of fight. We just got handed a hard lesson from a much better team. I think there is a recurrent issue around believing our own hype though. We need to manage the mental load differently, but as a player if you can't handle taking a lesson then maybe rugby isn't for you. Ireland are playing a different game, psychologically. They are streets ahead. Look at the way Sheehan reacted to being pushed over the advertising hoarding. He just walked away. Incredible restraint. Contrast that with Ollie Smith, who really deserves to be dropped for a while for his trip.

Nothing in the last 24hours was a revelation about Townsend. If the board are going to fork out £1.5m to buy him out now, then they should be outside selling matchday programmes rather than running a professional national org.  

We were 26-0 down by halftime!! That's definitely a capitulation

[Mcsweens]

The reason that Townsend has to go is because 1. He clearly cannot make the team any better than he has and 2. Without a new senior coach with new perspectives, the younger players in the squad are going to be badly damaged by the mental load of having capitulated so completely against other teams and having no reason to believe the next Tier 1 games will be any different.

The problem is mental as much as physical now. We need another plan in addition to ‘go wide fast’ because once teams structure their defense accordingly we have nothing else to try - Tom English is 100% right.

Did we capitulate? Really? I'll have to watch it again but on first viewing I thought we showed a lot of fight. We just got handed a hard lesson from a much better team. I think there is a recurrent issue around believing our own hype though. We need to manage the mental load differently, but as a player if you can't handle taking a lesson then maybe rugby isn't for you. Ireland are playing a different game, psychologically. They are streets ahead. Look at the way Sheehan reacted to being pushed over the advertising hoarding. He just walked away. Incredible restraint. Contrast that with Ollie Smith, who really deserves to be dropped for a while for his trip.

Nothing in the last 24hours was a revelation about Townsend. If the board are going to fork out £1.5m to buy him out now, then they should be outside selling matchday programmes rather than running a professional national org.  

We were 26-0 down by halftime!! That's definitely a capitulation

Capitulation as in "surrender"? I'll have to watch it again, but what I saw was a hard working team making bad decisions, being shown they aren't as good as they thought, and comprehensively outplayed.

I think we need to know whose decision it was to turn down the early kicks. If it came from Townsend, then thats a major black mark against him. If it came from the players, then they need to take their medicine and learn not to knock on the door too early against the world most intense defence.

[BigGee]

The dilemma about whether Toonie stays or goes has already taken place before this WC started. This discussion is pie in the sky, Toonie is not going anywhere atm.

Firstly he has a contract and secondly, who is this mythical coach who is going to tske us to the next level?

Even though the manner of our defeat to Ireland was masdively disappointing, losing both games and not progressing was surely factored in by Dodson when that contract was awarded. It was alwsys the likely outcome.

Ireland are simply much much better thsn us, at all levels and with our redources, it is hard to see that changing any time soon.

If we had been spsnked like thst by the All Blacks, as used to regularly happen, we would sll have sighed and shrugged our shoulders, excepting it as inevitable.

Ireland are at, or even above that level now, it is only brcsuse we used to be able to beat them that we are finding this so hard to accept.

This probably is our best team ever, despite the result and Toonie does deserve some credit for that. It is a side yhat has given us a lot of pleasure to watch over these past few years.

Unfortunately the other top 4 sides have also improved massively and the world cup with its extended preparation time does seem to magnify the difference between the best and the rest.

We are still very much in the rest, but we probably knew that anyway!

[bsando]

I see what you’re saying Gee, but surely he knew he had to deliver a strong World Cup regardless of results. That has categorically not happened. SA ran over us and Ireland barely got into 2nd gear.

He has two years on his contract, there will be several international and club opportunities for him to pursue now. He should fall on his sword.

France, SA and Ireland sit at the top and all three have excellent defence coaches with pragmatic head coaches. Tandy is an excellent defence coach, there is a workable scenario going forward that doesn’t require a marquee head coach.

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