England still winning the RWC at a canter - The quarter finals and beyond

First topic message reminder :

Carried on..............

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Impossible to say who will be better player. Can only judge on how they perform at present although need to take into account potential. Arundell certainly has that potential although same could be said for the others. Currently Seightholme is looking on fire but does that mean he'll be better than say Radwan by end of career? Impossible to say.

Exactly so everyone crying because of Arundel is to be honest quite laughable.

Because of said potential. I was as miffed when Radwan was tried and disgarded. I was annoyed that Arundell wasn't used more in RWC in matches where he could - note could - have made a difference.
Anyway, think it's time we moved on as it seems Arundell won't be in an Eng shirt for some time.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Huh? I've said it currently makes more sense to play O'Flaherty than Arundell at the moment. There is a risk though that other teams now benefit from such a great talent, or do in 3 years time.

And thats a huge risk i understand that..but we have a load of young talent...each could be top class with the right development. Each has their own point of difference...

And clearly we all have preferences. Roebuck is the guy for this team at the moment. And I'd rate him pretty far down in the list of better wingers we have at the moment. And he's under the watch of Scotland too.

I reckon Sleightholme fits the bill for Borthwick.

I'll have to give him a closer watch. I see him more as a finisher like a lot of wingers we have rather than an exceptional kick chaser. Given how well Freeman has settled into 13 I expect Borthwick to pick him on the right wing above Sleightholme.

mountain man wrote:I reckon Sleightholme fits the bill for Borthwick.

Sleightholme, Roebuck, Murley, Reed just for starters.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll have to give him a closer watch. I see him more as a finisher like a lot of wingers we have rather than an exceptional kick chaser. Given how well Freeman has settled into 13 I expect Borthwick to pick him on the right wing above Sleightholme.

Dear lord....

Oh there are several who could and maybe should be in team but I'm just going on the sort of player I think Borthwick might pick.
Murley is one I would like to be given a go, question is whether SB thinks that.

mountain man wrote:Oh there are several who could and maybe should be in team but I'm just going on the sort of player I think Borthwick might pick.
Murley is one I would like to be given a go, question is whether SB thinks that.

And what player is that. Everyone seems to think they know SB and yet he often does the very opposite. He signed Chris Ashton for Tigers...not the type of winger eveyrone seems to think is a SB winger.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I'll have to give him a closer watch. I see him more as a finisher like a lot of wingers we have rather than an exceptional kick chaser. Given how well Freeman has settled into 13 I expect Borthwick to pick him on the right wing above Sleightholme.

Dear lord....

It'll happen!

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Oh there are several who could and maybe should be in team but I'm just going on the sort of player I think Borthwick might pick.
Murley is one I would like to be given a go, question is whether SB thinks that.

And what player is that. Everyone seems to think they know SB and yet he often does the very opposite. He signed Chris Ashton for Tigers...not the type of winger eveyrone seems to think is a SB winger.

Ones that can kick and are happy to chase. That's why I think he may well go back to Freeman on the wing. He's clearly playing well but he will choose Tuialgi at 12 then Lawrence or Slade, outside chance for Joseph at 13 and will then slot Tommy in at wing.

Geordie wrote:

mountain man wrote:Oh there are several who could and maybe should be in team but I'm just going on the sort of player I think Borthwick might pick.
Murley is one I would like to be given a go, question is whether SB thinks that.

And what player is that. Everyone seems to think they know SB and yet he often does the very opposite. He signed Chris Ashton for Tigers...not the type of winger eveyrone seems to think is a SB winger.

So who do you think he will select?

Geordie predicted Daly and Murley.

Daly's a safe bet. Would be surprised if he wasn't nailed on. The other wing is wide open, with Murley a decent bet. He's the guy from those mentioned that SB's had in camp a few times.

Unless he messes about with Steward on the wing and Smith at FB

Watson will be back as well so personally would suspect he will be the other wing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Watson will be back as well so personally would suspect he will be the other wing.

Fair enough. Thought he was out for longer.

Although with his injury record, there's still time for him to be out again by the 6N

No 7&1/2 wrote:Geordie predicted Daly and Murley.

Yes...with Watson a huge ? now on availability...

Im a massive Sleightholme fan..but Murley has been sheer consistency...a try scoring machine, not far off Arundells pace and and is very powerful. He needs to be played now.

And the trend is a playmaker on the wing...so Daly over Malins..who shouldnt be anywhere near the squad.

Sorry but time to move on from Watson, just too injury prone these days. My wingers of current bunch be Murley and Sleightholme.
Daly? Hmmm dunno. I want England to build for future and he's not it along with several others. Not a criticism of Daly although he rarely at his best in an Eng shirt but I want to see new wings in.
Daly could still have a place on bench as his selling point is he covers several positions well. Not outstanding in any though.

mountain man wrote:Sorry but time to move on from Watson, just too injury prone these days. My wingers of current bunch be Murley and Sleightholme.
Daly? Hmmm dunno. I want England to build for future and he's not it along with several others. Not a criticism of Daly although he rarely at his best in an Eng shirt but I want to see new wings in.
Daly could still have a place on bench as his selling point is he covers several positions well. Not outstanding in any though.

I agree build for the future but you need some experience in there...and Daly has bucket loads.

Its going to be very difficult to pick the side SB will go for...with retirements, injuries lots of kids really bang in form...players like Chandler Cunningham playing exceptionally well...though i think an A game spot would be good for him.

The bang in form players are mainly playing a brand of rugby which is very different to what Borthwick plays though. The big task is translate that form into England's style.

Bad news for appointing Borthwicks successor if its this year https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67716552

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bad news for appointing Borthwicks successor if its this year https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67716552

Why are we lookng to appoint a successor this year?

RFU should always be considering the next action that may be required. Else you might rush into a mistake.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Bad news for appointing Borthwicks successor if its this year https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/67716552

Why are we lookng to appoint a successor this year?

I think only a few, well one, are.

We should all consider it. It'll be after 3 heavy defeats in NZ most likely.

Mercer is fit. Wonder if he'll get ignored for Vunipola again.

7.5 seriously you need to give it a rest for a bit...we get you hate SB...stop going on...

Telegraph saying Itoje and George have signed a central contract....

Change of direction from the bickering.

Does SB have carte blanche to pick a young inexperienced squad for the six nations bearing in mind the injury and unavailable list. Does he have credit in the bank and a four year plan to build his team or do the bigwigs demand a top two finish and the the fans the same. Discuss...

I'm sticking my head on the block here and say that, yes he has credit in the bank, the bigwigs will be worried about filling seats not results so as long as twickers is full they won't care. I'm hopeful some of the exciting youngsters get the nod.

OK my opinion....he doesn't have to go all out on the kids. There's some very good experienced guys in there to build a core around and then bring new kids on.

SB built up the basics. It wasn't fancy...it aas brutal and ugly..but it worked. He needs to now add the pieces. The kids can do rhst. Evolution now...not revolution...

Yoda wrote:...Does he have credit in the bank and a four year plan to build his team or do the bigwigs demand a top two finish and the the fans the same...

If this Six Nations is a failure, Borthwick won't be sacked, so he has credit in the bank in that sense. However, he hasn't got a free run at the next World Cup. His first Six Nations was poor, so another fourth or fifth placing will raise new doubts about his coaching. However, the rest of 2024 is a tour of NZ & Japan followed by Autumn Internationals against NZ, Australia, South Africa, so there's no easy route to redemption.

Lancaster faced the same kind of calendar year in 2012. As caretaker, he took England to four wins, and a second-place Six Nations finish, which earned him a permanent appointment. We then got smashed twice on tour in South Africa, before avoiding a whitewash with a draw in the Third Test. Autumn International losses to Australia and South Africa started to raise questions about the whether Lancaster was the right man. And then we beat New Zealand 38-21.

Borthwick needs a similar feelgood moment in 2024. Beating France and/or Ireland in the Six Nations might do it, as would a Test win on tour in NZ (there are two matches). On the other side of the equation, is how we perform at Twickenham. England face Wales and Ireland in the 6N, then NZ, Australia & SA in Autumn. While five wins is a very tall order, five losses might have the RFU reviewing the coaching set-up.

Due to uncertainties over availability with injuries etc and rumours of returns

Something like
1 Marler / Genge
2 George / Theo
3 Cole / (Stuart / Painter)
4 Itoje / Coles
5 (Chessum / Martin)
6 Ludlam / (T. Hill / Pearson)
7 Underhill / Earl
8 Barbeary / Mercer

9 Mitchell / ( Warr/ Quirke)
10 Smith  / Ford
11 Daly / (Roebuck / Reed)
12 Manu / Atkinson
13 (Joseph  / Lawrence  / Freeman)
14 Murley / (David)
15 Steward  / (Hodge / Carpenter)

The RFU will make their decision based ultimately on money. They turned a profit in the last year so they have some funds to do the necessary. Fewer sell outs and booing players off will focus their minds. And the dull rugby produced by Borthwick consistently whether there are wins or not will lead to more disquiet in the stands. I think he'll make it to 3 heavy defeats in NZ. If we can introduce some more players into the mix that'll be great for the next guy but at the moment whoever the new faces are they are going to be shackled into this England system. 'Does the word entertainment come into my thinking when I am planning? No. It's about the best way to play. The best way to play and attack will end up being entertaining.' That quote still sends shudders down my spine. I really don't get people who can sit bored and consistently be happy as long as you win. What do you get from that bar telling some BBC troll that you've won?

Could see Martin at six, earl at 8, Lawrence at 12 and 13 depending if manus on the pitch. I think he will bring slade back into the fold. I reckon you're right about ford but I think we should look at fin smith and see if he has the ability to step up to international matches. I don't think he will change his front row either.

No 7&1/2 wrote:The RFU will make their decision based ultimately on money. They turned a profit in the last year so they have some funds to do the necessary. Fewer sell outs and booing players off will focus their minds. And the dull rugby produced by Borthwick consistently whether there are wins or not will lead to more disquiet in the stands. I think he'll make it to 3 heavy defeats in NZ. If we can introduce some more players into the mix that'll be great for the next guy but at the moment whoever the new faces are they are going to be shackled into this England system. 'Does the word entertainment come into my thinking when I am planning? No. It's about the best way to play. The best way to play and attack will end up being entertaining.' That quote still sends shudders down my spine. I really don't get people who can sit bored and consistently be happy as long as you win. What do you get from that bar telling some BBC troll that you've won?

Depends on what you're looking for and how much you want to win. I know plenty of people who would put winning above all else. I do agree with the majority of the things you say and yes borthwick doesn't do Fijian rugby however he will win more matches than he loses through sheer determination and grit. What we need is a decent attack coach to knock some sense into the setup so when necessary they can play some beautiful free flowing rugby. He's made us hard to beat and there is a collective will again but we ain't winning hearts and minds or awards for scintillating rugby.

I'll wait and see what happens next and judge from there.

Hard to beat thing....we've lost 7 times under him this year. But I get that people want to give him and his staff more time. It's why I've asked people what they expect as there is a bit of a situation developing where there's a frog being sat in cold water that is slowly getting warmer!

Yoda wrote:Could see Martin at six, earl at 8, Lawrence at 12 and 13 depending if manus on the pitch. I think he will bring slade back into the fold. I reckon you're right about ford but I think we should look at fin smith and see if he has the ability to step up to international matches. I don't think he will change his front row either.

Ah i just want Martin to focus on Lock...become the best he can...a proper old school powerhouse and work on his lineout. He really showed what he can bring v South Africa...

Earl is a conundrum...played superb in the world cup...but he can be that from 7...if we find the 8 we want...thats something SB must sort out.

I would prefer not to bring slade back. Hes never shown the class at this level...bar the odd glimpse. Id go for Lawrence, Freeman or Joseph in there now...its a nice dilema to have.

I think Fin Smith will be in the A game to tie him to England...but i think now is the time to give Marcus Smith the reigns. He has shown he can control / boss a game now...which is critical at this level. Fijian rugby gets you so far but wont win a 6n or NZ tour or World Cup. You need to play in the right areas, and tactically spot on....

Marcus Smith has already demonstrated he can play comfortably at this level. The issue people have had with him is a lack of creativity, in a system devoid of creativity. We can't expect players to play as they do for their clubs when those clubs' tactics are vastly different to Englands. Ironically on the other end of the scale Farrell got grief in the WC for his play while Ford got plaudits vs Argentina for similar performances.

I would prefer not to bring slade back. Hes never shown the class at this level...bar the odd glimpse. Id go for Lawrence, Freeman or Joseph in there now...its a nice dilema to have.

Same. Slade flatters to deceive a bit for Eng. I do think though if fit(!) it'll be Manu at 12 rightly or wrongly. Lawrence at 13.
It would be interesting to see how Freeman develops at 13, I've not been a huge fan of him as a wing but if he continues to play 13 for Saints and does well then maybe Lawrence 12 Freeman 13 could be interesting combo.

Unless Borthwick goes down the Turkish route of punching a referee he is not getting sacked in 2024. Let's put that to bed now.

Yeah i have a feeling he'll go for Manu at 12...unsure on that one. Pros and cons.

I think Lawrence is going to be a puzzle aswell...where does he settle in..or is he just a "centre" who covers 12 and 13. Will Joseph looks some talent and Freeman is really impressing so suddenly theres options who all offer something different.

Once again though probably goes more about who we pick at 12...Seb Atkinson v Manu are very different animals at 12.

No 7&1/2 wrote:... I think he'll make it to 3 heavy defeats in NZ....

There are only two matches. A third Test is against Japan.

It was originally down for 3 wasn't it? That could be good news for Borthwick then, unless he loses that test too.

Do you think England will ever beat anyone seeing as you think Italy will beat them, Japan will, NZ will hammer them etc.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard to beat thing....we've lost 7 times under him this year. But I get that people want to give him and his staff more time. It's why I've asked people what they expect as there is a bit of a situation developing where there's a frog being sat in cold water that is slowly getting warmer!

The difference is that most people place relatively little weight on the 6 Nations performances - which were disappointing but with a squad that he'd inherited at short notice and who were not in shape for international rugby and had been playing under a tactical system that only a couple of them seemed to understand.

And they place zero weight on the warm up games, since it was clear (at the time for those paying attention, and in hindsight for anyone) that Borthwick was quite prepared to sacrifice those matches to get the squad fitness to where he wanted it to be. England have said that they played a full match in training in the week of the Ireland game. Losses that came in the least consequential games of the entire 4 year cycle as part of a deliberate training plan can only be judged by what comes after.

What came after wasn't pretty (though no-one expected it to be) but it was effective. England beat Argentina comfortably while playing a man down for 65 minutes. They won their remaining pool matches (sometimes by narrower margins than we would have liked but then it was clear that the heavy training loads were continuing deep into the tournament). They beat a Fiji side that had already knocked over one Tier 1 side and should - with a little more composure and better refereeing - have beaten another. They were the only NH side to reach the semi-finals, and lost to the eventual winners by a single point from a scrum penalty that could (and perhaps should) have been awarded the other way.

That style of play is unlikely to be enough for the next RWC cycle, so there is pressure on Borthwick to develop a better attack. But in the eyes of the RFU he will have a lot of credit in the bank. He also has about the most benign 6N schedule you can get in the current form of the tournament, with Italy up first and Ireland and France at the far end of the schedule. He's got some time to build up the tactics, which will be important given he will have a rejigged coaching squad and probably quite a changed squad to work with.

No-one will be expecting a win in NZ at this point in their respective developments (how many teams have ever won even one game in a tour of NZ? Not many), but good performances and a win over Japan will probably be enough.

mountain man wrote:Do you think England will ever beat anyone seeing as you think Italy will beat them, Japan will, NZ will hammer them etc.

I did say that England should beat Italy but that it's very possible that this will be a first for them as it was with Fiji last year. TBH I think I expect a return of 4 wins this year.

Poorfour wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Hard to beat thing....we've lost 7 times under him this year. But I get that people want to give him and his staff more time. It's why I've asked people what they expect as there is a bit of a situation developing where there's a frog being sat in cold water that is slowly getting warmer!

The difference is that most people place relatively little weight on the 6 Nations performances - which were disappointing but with a squad that he'd inherited at short notice and who were not in shape for international rugby and had been playing under a tactical system that only a couple of them seemed to understand.

And they place zero weight on the warm up games, since it was clear (at the time for those paying attention, and in hindsight for anyone) that Borthwick was quite prepared to sacrifice those matches to get the squad fitness to where he wanted it to be. England have said that they played a full match in training in the week of the Ireland game. Losses that came in the least consequential games of the entire 4 year cycle as part of a deliberate training plan can only be judged by what comes after.

What came after wasn't pretty (though no-one expected it to be) but it was effective. England beat Argentina comfortably while playing a man down for 65 minutes. They won their remaining pool matches (sometimes by narrower margins than we would have liked but then it was clear that the heavy training loads were continuing deep into the tournament). They beat a Fiji side that had already knocked over one Tier 1 side and should - with a little more composure and better refereeing - have beaten another. They were the only NH side to reach the semi-finals, and lost to the eventual winners by a single point from a scrum penalty that could (and perhaps should) have been awarded the other way.

That style of play is unlikely to be enough for the next RWC cycle, so there is pressure on Borthwick to develop a better attack. But in the eyes of the RFU he will have a lot of credit in the bank. He also has about the most benign 6N schedule you can get in the current form of the tournament, with Italy up first and Ireland and France at the far end of the schedule. He's got some time to build up the tactics, which will be important given he will have a rejigged coaching squad and probably quite a changed squad to work with.

No-one will be expecting a win in NZ at this point in their respective developments (how many teams have ever won even one game in a tour of NZ? Not many), but good performances and a win over Japan will probably be enough.

Yes I agree that people have been giving Borthwick more time than I'm prepared to. And are more hopeful of progression. It just feels like we're wasting time.

IIRC, you didn't want to give him any time at all, and probably never will.

We get that. We get that you think the only gameplan he will ever consider is a basic territory over possession one.

Your point has been made, repeatedly, but you've reached the point where you're not adding anything new to the debate.

I really dislike his style of rugby so I'd give him less time than others, and what he's done so far has reinforced that he's never going to deliver entertainment or results. I think his limited style will work up to a point, sneak some games where opponents struggle lend itself to relatively close games where people will point to an instance or 2 where we could possibly have won but never consistently threaten to be at the top. And to be fair most points countering this Poorfour are, we'll select new players it'll be jam tomorrow. And don't worry this won't go on for too much longer!

mountain man wrote:Do you think England will ever beat anyone seeing as you think Italy will beat them, Japan will, NZ will hammer them etc.

It's the same schtick predicting selection as results. Just taking the most negative thing he can imagine and saying that will happen unless it doesn't. Then if it happens he predicted it and if it doesn't, "I did say they might win". Same with selection.

There was apparently no point discussing centre selection for the RWC because Slade was going to be 13. Until Marchant was.

No point discussing 9 as Youngs would get recalled. Until Mitchell was starting.

No point discussing 8 as Billy would start. Until Earl was nailed on in the shirt.

Same BS, different week. Poorfour nailed it there. 7.5 used to add a lot to discussion even if we didn't always agree but by his own admission the only reason he's still posting is the hope that the team he supports fails so he can say I told you so to other posters. It's a position from which it's almost impossible to add constructively to the debate, sadly.

Well predicted the 6 nations and WC pretty spot on. My prediction is that England as things stand will win 4 times this year. Of course that will be the fault of the weak premiership eh King?!

I hope Borthwick does alter his approach radically as some suggest he's about to do, it's come too late for 2 comps already but it would be good to see.

Most of us felt that reaching a semi-final was the most probable outcome for England just given the draw and our historic track record against the likely key opponents Argentina, Japan, Fiji, Wales or Australia.

So it comes down to the performances. The three significant ones were against Argentina, Fiji and South Africa.

The Argentina game was shaped by Curry's red card. In a key game and a player down, there's no way England should have been playing expansive rugby. It was tactically astute rugby, and England controlled the game against a team who went into the match with a higher ranking.

The Fiji game was a little more open, and England let them back into the game having built a comfortable lead - but responded and did enough to win.

England put the Boks on the back foot in a way that only Ireland had done better in the tournament, and very nearly weathered the comeback. The winning penalty was awarded in a scrum where both sides had infringed and for Genge putting a knee down, something the Bomb Squad had got away with at an earlier scrum. England still lost, but to lose to the ultimate winners on margins that fine was something that had looked well beyond England during the 6N.

If you choose not to see that as progress, then that's your prerogative. But it ignores a lot that has changed.

As for "alter his approach radically", well I predict right now that not only are you going to be disappointed but that you've already decided you're going to be disappointed whatever happens.

For one thing, I doubt that whatever he does will ever be radical enough for you, even if it works.

For another, Borthwick is not going to throw out the basics he's established, and building an international attack takes time. The coaches have limited time with the players, and the players have limited game time together. Getting the detail, timing and precision of different aspects of an attack working uses up that time, so nearly all coaches build it a bit at a time.

Eddie Jones even chose to forgo scrummaging sessions so that he could build a radical attacking plan, and lost his job when neither the scrum nor the attack worked properly. Borthwick, like most coaches, is unlikely to take that big a gamble.

No one's said that the approach will radically change. We think it will evolve as the team improves. Like pretty much all good coaches do in international rugby.

By keeping repeating that we think there will be radical change it gives you the chance to say we were wrong about something no one but you has said will happen though. So presumably that's going to keep getting pedalled too.

Yep the spot on prediction for the RWC that varied through, getting to a SF due to a lucky draw then get hammered. But maybe lose to Japan and Argentina. But probably top the group. Because of the draw. Unless they don't top the group. In which case they wont. If they make the SF they'll get hammered unless they keep it tight, in which case they might win. Then they might also get lucky and win a final, unless they got hammered in the SF. Fiji could also win the QF. Unless they keep it tight and win by being boring. In which case they will win. Unless they lose.

So to sum up. They'll definitely make a SF unless they go out in the groups, or win the tournament. Such genius predicting. It's just amazing that it turned out correct when you effectively predicted that England would take part in a RWC.

Now for the 2024 Six Nations. They'll come 3rd, 4th or 5th. Unless they lose to Italy. Which you've predicted a few times. Then said it shouldn't happen. But it could. But maybe wont. Unless it does... And we wind tediously on.

Like the kid at school who predicted it would snow next week everyday from October to March. Then when it snowed once he thinks he can predict the weather.