2nd RWC 2023 semi-final England v South Africa

First topic message reminder :

Having just watched that awesome match with France and seeing the SA players, with family, parade around the ground I can't help feeling that our main hope of not being thrashed lies in their complacency. They will go in as massive favourites and rightly so. England will be fighting for their very lives to avoid humiliation and this often brings out the best in teams. I don't think it will be enough, but it might help keep the score to below 45.

Realistically do we have a prayer?

If Farrell and Manu don't retire it's highly likely they'll be 10/12 for 6N with Lawrence 13. Borthwick picked them for RWC so why wouldn't he do same for 6N. Not saying he should but he would.

mountain man wrote:If Farrell and Manu don't retire it's highly likely they'll be 10/12 for 6N with Lawrence 13. Borthwick picked them for RWC so why wouldn't he do same for 6N. Not saying he should but he would.

I think he had a plan for the world cup....doesnt mean thats his plan for the future.

i think Farrell will stay but i think he'll move away from Manu. The only one i think he may desperately try to convince on staying even just to the 6n..is Dan Cole. Losing Cole means we have Sinckler and Stuart ...thats not a great thought.

We can assume(?) Youngs be gone, wonder if Care will hang up Int boots. Then it's Mitchell and hopefully Quirke at 9. No doubt Borthwick plays JvP when fit.

That's why I'm so keen to see 6N squad as and when announced. So many positions need addressing. As ever it's 9/10/12/13 plus wings. Oh and front row.
Think only 2nd row and 15 are fairly definites.

Yeha i think Youngs and care will retire. Quirke needs to stay fit...and on form. Warr was the better 9 at Sale last year.

JVP was excellent when he came through at Tigers...needs to rediscover that.

May will probably retire. In fact i believe he has already said so hasnt he.
Lawes gone.

So:
Youngs
Lawes
Care
May
Cole - unless SB talks into another season or so.
Jamie George - unless SB talks into another season or so.
Manu hopefully

Ineligible
Ribbans
Jack Willis
Marchant

Thats a lot of changes potentially.

JvP was excellent when he broke into Eng team then rapidly went downhill I thought. Was really disappointing after promise shown.
Has Jamie George said he's retiring from Int?

No...Jamie hasnt...but hes another who is 33...and you just wonder where they are mentally. Maybe he'll hang about for another season or so?

I don't mind if they hang around for another season but if you, say, decide that Mercer is the way to go at 8 I'd rather he came in as soon as possible with the team built around him. I am not saying Mercer is the one, but in contrast if you have our saviour Farrell at 10 and except he's unlikely to be there next RWC then it needs to be planned for.

Geordie wrote:Yeha i think Youngs and care will retire. Quirke needs to stay fit...and on form. Warr was the better 9 at Sale last year.

JVP was excellent when he came through at Tigers...needs to rediscover that.

JVP is only 22 there's plenty of time, he won't be playing until January at the earliest though. He said five months back in September.

Warr has looked better than Quirke than this season as well. Warr was really unlucky not to get a shot at the world cup training squad.

Warrs skills etc seems heaven sent for Borthwick. The issue again though is he's Scottish qualified so why wouldn't you play for them.

mountain man wrote:JvP was excellent when he broke into Eng team then rapidly went downhill I thought. Was really disappointing after promise shown.
Has Jamie George said he's retiring from Int?

I didn't think JvP was terribly great when he started with England, but he brought an important point of difference which was clearly needed. And it showed. I also think he was quickly found out and became/regressed to who he is.

Jamie George is a worry. When someone plays so many minutes, sometimes the player just doesn't get them back. He needs a nice easy season. Not because he is not the best one or two hookers (pending LCD) in England, but rather because he is.

I think that game was a case where the tough old boys like Lawes, Cole, Marler, George, raised their game beyond their limits for one more go. And were wonderful (along with a few young guys). That game was not about the England strategy, such as it was, but really about the class, courage, and will of certain players and the others who fed off that. When the tough old boys went off, there was no Plan B. Especially when Plan A was just to ride the old warhorses.

Looking ahead, with a view to developing a squad for the next RWC, I think you look at 3 groups - those who will retire (or be discarded) before the next batch of internatinoals, those that will play another season or two but won't make the next RWC and those likely to be available in 4 years (and I am assuming some agreement will be reached to allow France-based players to play for England)

Gone now:
Marler
Cole
Lawes
Billy V
Youngs
Care
Manu
May

Not making 2027
George (and LCD)
Farrell
Ford
Daly
Sinckler?

Which leaves us needing most of a new front row and a new 9-10-12 axis.
It will be interesting to see how Borthwick replaces Lawes, as a bulky blindside who can operate in the lineout - none of our other back row forwards immediately look like 3rd (or 2nd) lineout options, so it's either look at converting a 2nd row or not go like-for-like, and maybe play a more conventional 6 and look for an 8 who can add tot he lineout options.

As an aside, I wonder how Lawes would have got on if it had been decided when he was 20 that his position was going to be as an 8

dummy_half wrote:Looking ahead, with a view to developing a squad for the next RWC, I think you look at 3 groups - those who will retire (or be discarded) before the next batch of internatinoals, those that will play another season or two but won't make the next RWC and those likely to be available in 4 years (and I am assuming some agreement will be reached to allow France-based players to play for England)

Gone now:
Marler
Cole
Lawes
Billy V
Youngs
Care
Manu
May

Not making 2027
George  (and LCD)
Farrell
Ford
Daly
Sinckler?

Which leaves us needing most of a new front row and a new 9-10-12 axis.
It will be interesting to see how Borthwick replaces Lawes, as a bulky blindside who can operate in the lineout - none of our other back row forwards immediately look like 3rd (or 2nd) lineout options, so it's either look at converting a 2nd row or not go like-for-like, and maybe play a more conventional 6 and look for an 8 who can add tot he lineout options.

As an aside, I wonder how Lawes would have got on if it had been decided when he was 20 that his position was going to be as an 8

He has been a great 6 but his transition to this position wasn't exactly plain sailing. I don't think he would ever be a good 8. Itoje might have been an interesting option at 8 though.

As for the not making 27. They are all possibles. That isn't necessarily a good thing but that is a separate argument.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Warrs skills etc seems heaven sent for Borthwick. The issue again though is he's Scottish qualified so why wouldn't you play for them.

because England are rebuilding nicely...and will go further...

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Warrs skills etc seems heaven sent for Borthwick. The issue again though is he's Scottish qualified so why wouldn't you play for them.

because England are rebuilding nicely...and will go further...

So the promise of more room for improvement over the team more likely to win something? He's not Alan Shearer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Warrs skills etc seems heaven sent for Borthwick. The issue again though is he's Scottish qualified so why wouldn't you play for them.

because England are rebuilding nicely...and will go further...

So the promise of more room for improvement over the team more likely to win something? He's not Alan Shearer.

What are Scotland going to win...genuinely?
Not to mentioned their golden generation is coming to an end.

England will improve and will have more chance of winning. In my opinion.

They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

WR now looking into the Mbonambi Curry incident too. Would have been difficult for the officials to act at the time but running the risk of being banned now would really hit SA in the final.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Warrs skills etc seems heaven sent for Borthwick. The issue again though is he's Scottish qualified so why wouldn't you play for them.

because England are rebuilding nicely...and will go further...

So the promise of more room for improvement over the team more likely to win something? He's not Alan Shearer.

What are Scotland going to win...genuinely?
Not to mentioned their golden generation is coming to an end.

England will improve and will have more chance of winning. In my opinion.

Aye but sometimes you have to look at the finances - England players get £25k(?) per appearance, Scotland players get £5k per appearance. If you think you can get way more caps with Scotland than England then in the long run, financially, it makes sense.

That appears a bit mercenary but i bet it plays on the mind a wee bit!

lostinwales wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Looking ahead, with a view to developing a squad for the next RWC, I think you look at 3 groups - those who will retire (or be discarded) before the next batch of internatinoals, those that will play another season or two but won't make the next RWC and those likely to be available in 4 years (and I am assuming some agreement will be reached to allow France-based players to play for England)

Gone now:
Marler
Cole
Lawes
Billy V
Youngs
Care
Manu
May

Not making 2027
George  (and LCD)
Farrell
Ford
Daly
Sinckler?

Which leaves us needing most of a new front row and a new 9-10-12 axis.
It will be interesting to see how Borthwick replaces Lawes, as a bulky blindside who can operate in the lineout - none of our other back row forwards immediately look like 3rd (or 2nd) lineout options, so it's either look at converting a 2nd row or not go like-for-like, and maybe play a more conventional 6 and look for an 8 who can add tot he lineout options.

As an aside, I wonder how Lawes would have got on if it had been decided when he was 20 that his position was going to be as an 8

He has been a great 6 but his transition to this position wasn't exactly plain sailing. I don't think he would ever be a good 8. Itoje might have been an interesting option at 8 though.

As for the not making 27. They are all possibles. That isn't necessarily a good thing but that is a separate argument.

Itoje as an 8 would certainly have been an interesting option - terrific athlete and probably a bit undersized for a modern second row. The other one who has some interesting attributes would be Ellis Genge - would obviousy not bulked up quite as much as he has to be a prop.
No way I see Daly still being around in 4 years, and Farrell I think is very nearly done because he has a lot of miles on the clock. Slightly more chance of Ford continuing, but he will be 35 by the next RWC.
Cowan-Dickie I think is done, because of injurym and I thinkJamie Goerge has probably 2 more seasons unless England start handling his workload better.
Sinkler's 30, and his gme primarily relies on his athleticism, so I think he'll fade early unless he remodels himself as a set piece tighthead.

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

dummy_half wrote:Looking ahead, with a view to developing a squad for the next RWC, I think you look at 3 groups - those who will retire (or be discarded) before the next batch of internatinoals, those that will play another season or two but won't make the next RWC and those likely to be available in 4 years (and I am assuming some agreement will be reached to allow France-based players to play for England)

Gone now:
Marler
Cole
Lawes
Billy V
Youngs
Care
Manu
May

Not making 2027
George  (and LCD)
Farrell
Ford
Daly
Sinckler?

Which leaves us needing most of a new front row and a new 9-10-12 axis.
It will be interesting to see how Borthwick replaces Lawes, as a bulky blindside who can operate in the lineout - none of our other back row forwards immediately look like 3rd (or 2nd) lineout options, so it's either look at converting a 2nd row or not go like-for-like, and maybe play a more conventional 6 and look for an 8 who can add tot he lineout options.

As an aside, I wonder how Lawes would have got on if it had been decided when he was 20 that his position was going to be as an 8

Theres one other group...the old guard who are needed as the kids just arent good enough yet. Dan Cole, Marler, maybe Jamie George if he is considering retirement? Even if they are only around for one more season or even the 6n and maybe summer tour...just to give the next batch and Sinckler, Stuart etc a chance to regroup and focus...

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Not really as both England and Scotland have to get past Ireland and France for that...

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Not really as both England and Scotland have to get past Ireland and France for that...

Just the Calcutta cup then.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Not really as both England and Scotland have to get past Ireland and France for that...

Just the Calcutta cup then.

They been loaned it for a bit...time to take it back.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

lostinwales wrote:

dummy_half wrote:Looking ahead, with a view to developing a squad for the next RWC, I think you look at 3 groups - those who will retire (or be discarded) before the next batch of internatinoals, those that will play another season or two but won't make the next RWC and those likely to be available in 4 years (and I am assuming some agreement will be reached to allow France-based players to play for England)

Gone now:
Marler
Cole
Lawes
Billy V
Youngs
Care
Manu
May

Not making 2027
George  (and LCD)
Farrell
Ford
Daly
Sinckler?

Which leaves us needing most of a new front row and a new 9-10-12 axis.
It will be interesting to see how Borthwick replaces Lawes, as a bulky blindside who can operate in the lineout - none of our other back row forwards immediately look like 3rd (or 2nd) lineout options, so it's either look at converting a 2nd row or not go like-for-like, and maybe play a more conventional 6 and look for an 8 who can add tot he lineout options.

As an aside, I wonder how Lawes would have got on if it had been decided when he was 20 that his position was going to be as an 8

He has been a great 6 but his transition to this position wasn't exactly plain sailing. I don't think he would ever be a good 8. Itoje might have been an interesting option at 8 though.

As for the not making 27. They are all possibles. That isn't necessarily a good thing but that is a separate argument.

I think these are great points.  Agree that Lawes transition was not always a gimmee nor terribly smooth at times.  But, as he settled into the blindside, his greatest asset was/is not physical.  It was his top 10% which remains his most significant point of difference.  I like your thought if tried 8 as a young player.  If nothing else, makes for good conversation now.  

I hope he gets a run out in the Argentina game, just to celebrate his career one last time on the international stage.  If he wants it.  Goodness knows, he deserves it.

I work with athletes as a normal part of my work.  But he is one of a very small handful of players in any sport whom I look at as a hero of mine.  Character, ethics, brains, perspective.

No 7&1/2 wrote:WR now looking into the Mbonambi Curry incident too. Would have been difficult for the officials to act at the time but running the risk of being banned now would really hit SA in the final.

This is such a curious one. There are plenty of explanations of how Mbonambi might have said something using an Afrikaans word which sounds like the c word. It would be good if that was the explanation. However, no-one is sure about the exact circumstances, because Curry didn't specify when he told O'Keefe, and he didn't go into it questioned by media afterwards.

One thing which has come out of this World Cup is that no international team can really claim the moral high ground. As a combined consequence of professionalism, and toxic public discourse (mainly reflected through social media), there are now just too many examples of players, coaches and supporters being out of order for us to automatically give people the benefit of the doubt. That's not "guilty until proved innocent", just recognizing the reality that good guys can do, and say, bad things.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

Look if England play at the intensity they played v SA for the full game v Italy i honestly dont think Italy can hit that level.

doctor_grey wrote:Agree that Lawes transition was not always a gimmee nor terribly smooth at times.  But, as he settled into the blindside, his greatest asset was/is not physical.

Not sure whether he's right but Tim on the Eggchasers podcast said the only late scrum which didn't yield a penalty for South Africa was when Lawes switched sides to pack behind Sinckler.

Tim couldn't understand why, when Vunipola came on, he wasn't asked to scrum on the flank, to add his weight on the prop. Instead, Earl went to the flank, and Vuniploa to No.8, which he thought was a misuse of Vunipola's bulk in a struggling scrum.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:WR now looking into the Mbonambi Curry incident too. Would have been difficult for the officials to act at the time but running the risk of being banned now would really hit SA in the final.

This is such a curious one. There are plenty of explanations of how Mbonambi might have said something using an Afrikaans word which sounds like the c word. It would be good if that was the explanation. However, no-one is sure about the exact circumstances, because Curry didn't specify when he told O'Keefe, and he didn't go into it questioned by media afterwards.

One thing which has come out of this World Cup is that no international team can really claim the moral high ground. As a combined consequence of professionalism, and toxic public discourse (mainly reflected through social media), there are now just too many examples of players, coaches and supporters being out of order for us to automatically give people the benefit of the doubt. That's not "guilty until proved innocent", just recognizing the reality that good guys can do, and say, bad things.

Yeah there's no high ground particularly from England's previous on it. It was also fairly notable that we have been trying to get rises from the opposition in bother quartet and semi finals.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

Look if England play at the intensity they played v SA for the full game v Italy i honestly dont think Italy can hit that level.

Its a fair thought. Defensively everyone was excellent. But it was aided by the weather. And we have looked consistently toothless. I think its the game that Itlay will target and throw everything at.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

Look if England play at the intensity they played v SA for the full game v Italy i honestly dont think Italy can hit that level.

Its a fair thought. Defensively everyone was excellent. But it was aided by the weather. And we have looked consistently toothless. I think its the game that Itlay will target and throw everything at.

But isn't this another aspect of the coach8ng critique? England, or rather the XV, haven't put out his kind of physical effort in a while, and not consistently in years. And, even less so in the Borthwick administration. The guys who raised their effort are mostly the ones who are leaving/retiring.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

Look if England play at the intensity they played v SA for the full game v Italy i honestly dont think Italy can hit that level.

Its a fair thought. Defensively everyone was excellent. But it was aided by the weather. And we have looked consistently toothless. I think its the game that Itlay will target and throw everything at.

Why is it when England play well it's everything but the fact England was good...becoming boring.

England played to an intensity and breakdown etc we haven't seen for a long time. We know that's not luck..its how SB start his tigers rebuilding.

Italy will not cope with this level...nor the breakdown etc. I fully expect them to start working on the attack now...and things will move on again.

I get you hate SB and loathe any slight chink of improvement...so I'll call it a day on our ongoing debate on SB.

Where did you get the idea 7.5 doesn't like Borthwick? If that's true he hides it well ...

Just a hunch Heaf...

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

Look if England play at the intensity they played v SA for the full game v Italy i honestly dont think Italy can hit that level.

Its a fair thought. Defensively everyone was excellent. But it was aided by the weather. And we have looked consistently toothless. I think its the game that Itlay will target and throw everything at.

But isn't this another aspect of the coach8ng critique? England, or rather the XV, haven't put out his kind of physical effort in a while, and not consistently in years. And, even less so in the Borthwick administration. The guys who raised their effort are mostly the ones who are leaving/retiring.

I think it was more like the Argentina game about the amount of options veing removed from the team. You knew the limited aim and their choices and then the results of them improved.

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:They stand more chance of the 6 nations at the moment. I suppose the obvious answer is the calcutta cup. I would honestly be a little surprised that Borthwick can take us lower but I suppose we've never lost to Itlay yet.

Warr would probably find it more challenging to play for Scotland though. England suit his skills etc much more.

Jeez...your actually quite comical....

You don't think there's a good chance first up away to Italy that we could lose?

Nope

Really?fair enough. I can see them very much as a threat to us now. 2 big games first up in the 6Ns this year. We really have to win both or its going to get quite ugly.

Look if England play at the intensity they played v SA for the full game v Italy i honestly dont think Italy can hit that level.

Its a fair thought. Defensively everyone was excellent. But it was aided by the weather. And we have looked consistently toothless. I think its the game that Itlay will target and throw everything at.

Why is it when England play well it's everything but the fact England was good...becoming boring.

England played to an intensity and breakdown etc we haven't seen for a long time. We know that's not luck..its how SB start his tigers rebuilding.

Italy will not cope with this level...nor the breakdown etc. I fully expect them to start working on the attack now...and things will move on again.

I get you hate SB and loathe any slight chink of improvement...so I'll call it a day on our ongoing debate on SB.

Well we'll see how we cope. The fact you think that they've ignored the attacknin the 5 months they've been together is interesting tbh. I ain't seen an improvement but I'll admit it when and if I see it.

Heaf wrote:Where did you get the idea 7.5 doesn't like Borthwick? If that's true he hides it well ...

Lol. Tbf if you look back to the immensely successful 2020 campaign I was scathing of Jones due to the tactics and style. We're now into the continuity selection post Jones and we see the same core of tactics and a worse coaching team...so. yeah. If he does as Geordie thinks and we see this influx of youngsters...and we see an attack I will hold my hands up and say hallelujah. But I haven't seen anything that suggests he's going to move away from his Leicester approach as yet.

Did Leicester develop their attack the second season he was in charge? I've said previously SB is formulaic to the extreme and now fitness, basics (except handling) have been worked on surely he wouldn't leave the attack alone?

Gustard' approached then. So a step up from Sinfield.
Re the step up for Leicester well I doubt he would have left the attack alone in his 5 months together with his squad no. Guess he's happy with how it's going else it'd be Wigglesworth on his way out.

Or, as was originally rumoured, WW's long term role is intended to be as kicking and skills coach with Felix Jones taking over the attack.

Gustard is a fantastic defence coach so I'd certainly be happy with him coming back. He's worked well with Borthwick in the past. During their with England during the start of EJs tenure they used to both do a lot of work on the contact area so Gustard overlapped into forward coaching and Borthwick into defensive coaching. Clearly it worked for them then.

Yoda, there's no point trying to reason on whether the long term plan is to develop the game plan once the basics have improved. Borthwick is braindead and on a crusade to destroy rugby one kick at a time. 7.5 has made his mind up.

Interestingly, that Telegraph article on Gustard has disappeared. I tried it a couple of hours after it went up online and got a 404 error. Now it isn't even showing up on Google. Which suggests that the Telegraph got that wrong and have taken it down. Or maybe the England setup have asked them to take it down until something is confirmed. The Telegraph clearly have good links as they constantly get matchday 23s right the day before. So it would be surprising if they reported something completely wide of the mark.

I have made up my mind on Borthwick based on what he's done over his career. If he's just ignored the attack to focus on the basics of set piece it's quite worrying. Especially as we could be about to lose our 2 starting props and vital component of a lineout. Another year of basics incoming.

And I really don't believe that after 5 months together they've just ignored the attack to focus on other areas. This attack is what Borthwick wants.

Rugby Fan wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:WR now looking into the Mbonambi Curry incident too. Would have been difficult for the officials to act at the time but running the risk of being banned now would really hit SA in the final.

This is such a curious one. There are plenty of explanations of how Mbonambi might have said something using an Afrikaans word which sounds like the c word. It would be good if that was the explanation. However, no-one is sure about the exact circumstances, because Curry didn't specify when he told O'Keefe, and he didn't go into it questioned by media afterwards.

One thing which has come out of this World Cup is that no international team can really claim the moral high ground. As a combined consequence of professionalism, and toxic public discourse (mainly reflected through social media), there are now just too many examples of players, coaches and supporters   being out of order for us to automatically give people the benefit of the doubt. That's not "guilty until proved innocent", just recognizing the reality that good guys can do, and say, bad things.

Apparently he said wit kant which means white side & is used in the Bok's defensive set up, identifying when England were changing the point of attack.

And I really don't believe that after 5 months together they've just ignored the attack to focus on other areas. This attack is what Borthwick wants.

Seems that way. I've not been sold on Borthwick but he almost got team to final against SA so he must be doing something right. I do think attack appears to be the last consideration and I do agree it is pretty dull overall. The SF was anything but, however if England continue in similar style and tactics for next RWC cycle I reckon we'll hear more booing at Twickenham.

Anyway, let's see how squad develops for 6N and take it from there.

So "IF" Gustard was coming in...the Felix Jones would be general coach looking at defence and attack and general all round play?

mountain man wrote:

And I really don't believe that after 5 months together they've just ignored the attack to focus on other areas. This attack is what Borthwick wants.

Seems that way. I've not been sold on Borthwick but he almost got team to final against SA so he must be doing something right. I do think attack appears to be the last consideration and I do agree it is pretty dull overall. The SF was anything but, however if England continue in similar style and tactics for next RWC cycle I reckon we'll hear more booing at Twickenham.

Anyway, let's see how squad develops for 6N and take it from there.

Nah...
Do people really think hes a thick clueless bloke...that he doesnt realise attack is quite an important part of rugby??

I don't think he's thick or clueless but what it appears he is doing currently is tailoring England play to players he has in squad and those who he rates. I don't think anyone can argue with fact his entire gameplan is based on defence and playing percentage rugby. Kick, chase and look for mistakes from opposition rather than create.

That is certainly what it appears to me Borthwick has done so far he's been in charge. Maybe with a squad rebuild post RWC we'll see a more expansive gameplan.