Glasgow and Edinburgh 30 - Starting the new season with 2 wins - Long may it continue

First topic message reminder :

Well both Scotland's pro teams got off the mark with a W this weekend, though probably fair to say that Glasgow's was slightly more pleasing on the eye!

Still not to be sniffed at and probably a while since it last happened.

A good omen for the season, let's hope so, though early season games are not always a predictor of longer term performance. Both sides still got plenty of players to bring back into the fold and a lot of improvement to make.

Roll on 2023/24!

Interesting to see Dylan Richardson back playing hooker for the Sharks last night in their defeat agsingst the Ospreys.

With our slightly aging hooker profile, he might have more luck breaking into the Scotland setup in the front row than the backrow.

I was about to say, is he not a backrow??

RDW wrote:I was about to say, is he not a backrow??

He is a bit of a hybrid, has played both in the past, but mainly backrow recently. That is where he got his Scotland cap

Leinster comfortably in front at HT without having to have gotten out of third gear. This game probably a bit more reflective of where Edinburgh are currently at.

The wind is likely worth a few points though, so maybe the can make some use of it in the second half.

The ref has been interpreting the laws through the medium of creative dance for most of the match. But at least he's been unpredictable and occasionally interesting which cannot be said for the Edinburgh backs.

Healy is having a mare today, he is trying way to hard to make things happen.

How did Edinburgh not sco0re then, they had clear overlaps on each side!

A second try for Edinburgh, maybe a BP at play here they seem to have set piece dominance now that the Leinster cubs are on

Good game. Got tight enough there at the end. Commiserations Edinburgh.

well an entertaining last 15 mins but Edinburgh left themselves a mountain to climb and the game was well gone by the time they started to play.

There were a few positives for Edinburgh and mostly they came off the bench. Sykes, Boyle and Ashman look like they really should be starting and they made a difference. Not really a fair comparison as they had the wind behind them and Leinster had also emptied their bench.

Crosbie and Watson both took a clattering, so may need to sit out next week anyway.

The backs were all over the place again though and made a mess of a few clear chances.


It may take a few months, or maybe longer for this team to start to find its feet.

Not so disappointed by the result but sounds like we were convincingly outplayed by a young Leinster team. We had a lot of International experience and even Lions in the team.

Our backline definitely needs a lot of work but there has been a lot of chopping and changing so far, and Healy will take time to find his feet.

Saw Miotti had a really strong game for Sutherland’s new club Oyonnax yesterday as they managed to beat La Rochelle. He also won one of the biggest 50/22’s I’ve ever seen.

Quite a frustrating result for Edinburgh yesterday but as mentioned the bench made a big impact. Appears to be a season we might see some fresh faces making the step up to challenge the established players. Getting that continuity going sooner then later now that the internationals have returned will be key.

Blairhorn being linked with a move away from Edinburgh to Toulon.

He is 26 now and should be in the peak of his career so you can see the attraction of a move to a top team for him.

Maybe getting him out of his comfort zone might take him to the next level.

He certainly won't get away with brainfarts in the Top14

As you say, he should be in the peak of his career and I think he genuinely is a proper good player now. He's miles ahead of Ollie Smith in terms of attacking the line and he's got the benefit of not being a petulant wee sh1t (sorry Mr Smith but you are forever tarnished in my mind after that performance off the bench against Ireland)!

He shouldn’t have even been on the bench if you ask me, but yeah I agree. We’d barely mentioned Hogg but he would have added something more if he had been on the bench for that game.

Kinghorn would be a good signing for them but perhaps they’d be looking to play him at 10? I saw Biggar had a back injury while lining up a penalty at the weekend. If he makes the move thst might see him potentially playing a few games at ten along with Ben White. Either way a great player for them. Shame to lose him at Edinburgh just as he’s hitting his best form.

I'm still gutted Steyn wasn't on the bench for that one, super reliable but with a good try return. Instead...

I've just had a look at the Toulon squad, they've got 3 10s signed to 2025, including Biggar with Noah Lolesio as a medical joker(!)

They have 1 fullback on the books. Looks likely he'll be going as a fullback!

Other than that their squad is absolutely stacked with Talent

The whole Toulon move, link not actual move: remember GG "going" to Toulon a few years back?, is that it brings up the conundrum which will go a long way to defining Blarehorn's career.

If he stays at Luvvie central is he a winger, stand of or full back?

ADHD and Doohie are the starting wingers. Boffelli would be third cab off that rank.
Boffelli would be first choice 15.
The Luvvies currently have FOUR stand offs, not counting Blarehorn. Healey is, probably, first choice.

My problem is...he's never been the stand out, first choice in any position for Scotland. So, how good is he really?

Ah but Jimbo, now that Hogg has retired to pastures new that don't require knees, our choices of fullback in Scotland are twofold with a travesty of a player as a "oh god, please no" as 3rd choice back up.

1st choice is Blairhorn. He's also 1st choice at Edinburgh, Boffelli is starting to look a tad heavy legged and Healy off the tee is excellent. So. Blairhorn is 1st choice fullback for club and country considering his pace, eye for space and decent book (notes on his defense: to be improved, but then nobody is perfect).

2nd choice is Graham. Its Darcy Graham. Enough said.

3rd choice. Oh dear. Its all gone wrong. Ollie Smith. The last time i felt this despondent at a players actions was Stuart Hoggs hip-to-face v Dan Biggar in 2014. However, Hogg had the skill and talent to claw his way back to several years of world class excellence. Ollie Smith is slow, lacks vision and when he decides its time to inspire, lashes out with his shins at the nearest world class flyhalf (Finn was too far away at the time).

I'd agree with most of that but I would not have Darcy as our back up FB.

Hd has not really played there much as a pro and I personally think he dies not have the kicking or tackling game for it. He also gets injured a lot and I could see him getting mashed going for a high ball or having a big Fijian runni g over him.

He is a very good winger, let him play there.

Back up to Blairhorn?

Maybe Shuggy, who had a very decent season mainly at FB for Quins before coming back north. It might be thd answer as well to getting Redpath some regular starting spots, which I am sure would help us.

Smith does not have the perfect game for sure, and his petulance is a problem that has caught him out more than once. He is a good nuts snd bolts FB though who is still young enough to improve more and to learn to manage his temperament a lot better.

It would be nice to think as well ghat ghere maybe someond half decent coming up through the ranks who may challenge going forward as well.

BigGee wrote:I'd agree with most of that but I would not have Darcy as our back up FB.

Hd has not really played there much as a pro and I personally think he dies not have the kicking or tackling game for it. He also gets injured a lot and I could see him getting mashed going for a high ball or having a big Fijian runni g over him.

He is a very good winger, let him play there.

Back up to Blairhorn?

Maybe Shuggy, who had a very decent season mainly at FB for Quins before coming back north. It might be thd answer as well to getting Redpath some regular starting spots, which I am sure would help us.

Smith does not have the perfect game for sure, and his petulance is a problem that has caught him out more than once. He is a good nuts snd bolts FB though who is still young enough to improve more and to learn to manage his temperament a lot better.

It would be nice to think as well ghat ghere maybe someond half decent coming up through the ranks who may challenge going forward as well.

Hastings?

This isn't really a genuine proposal for 2nd choice, maybe 3rd/4th, but he has played there (once?) for Scotland and from memory was absolutely fine. Given he seemingly doesn't seem to be in Toonie's plans (currently) at 10, maybe backup 15 could be his route into the squad.

But think of the counter attack potential from Graham!

I must admit i only used him as an example to further stick the boot into Smith. I'm sure with time and patience Smith might be reformed into an actual rugby player.

For other options, i've no idea what the back up options at Glasgow are like, Harry Paterson is the young borders lad at Edinburgh who Everitt seems to like?

Not much in the way of SQ options at Glasgow

Josh McKay generally plays FB when Smith not available. A lively runner but shows the dangers of hsving a non kicking option at the back.

You would imagine that Kyke Steyn has the all round game to play FB, but I can't recall him ever playing there.

Hastings is an interesting one, he certainly can play FB ( it is in his genes).

I also wonder if he might move back up to Scotland next year to try and kick start his international career. Glasgow could certainly use a decent FH and things seem to have gone a bit flat for him in Gloucester. I think he is out of contract at the end of this season.


I would imagin

Boffelli is injured until at least January so Kinghorn is going to have plenty gametime in the 15 shirt up until the 6N.

Teams at the RWC who had fewer kicks per game than Scotland on average.
Namibia
Uruguay
Italy
Tonga
Chile

Must mean something.

jimbopip wrote:Teams at the RWC who had fewer kicks per game than Scotland on average.
Namibia
Uruguay
Italy
Tonga
Chile

Must mean something.

So, if you have a look at the six nations stats, arguably our closest years to winning the whole thing was 2020 and 2021, despite coming 4th in both.

2020 we were a stuart hogg moment of madness from beating Ireland (failed to place the ball over the line despite it being a walk in try)

2021 Wales won the whole tournament, winning one more game than us - importantly, the beat us with a stupid brainfart concession of a try near the end (also a welsh centre committed to a wonderful last minute tap tackle on duhan to deny an almost certain try.

Looking at the stats (provided by SAGE on the six nations website), in 2020: 2nd lowest points for, lowest points conceded, metres made in hand was relatively high, ball played through the hands was relatively low and metres kicked was relatively low. So, defence was good, kicking game was relatively controlled and short and when Scotland went through the hands it was statistically successful. One try away from beating Ireland and a truely awful game at Murrayfield in a hurricane against England away from winning the whole shibang.

For 2021: the 3rd highest points scored, 2nd lowest points conceded (only Ireland better by 4), 1st for metres gained in hand, 2nd highest ball in hand, 5th for metres kicked. So Scotland played through the hands more often than not, were relatively successful doing so, defence was very effective. One try away from beating Ireland, one penalty from beating Wales (who won, 4 wins to 1 loss). As much as Scotland came 4th they were 2 points against Wales from winning the whole thing.

So... this tells us that with the players he had, Toonie had an effective game plan that worked. I'd like to know what the total time without the ball was across both tournaments, i strongly suspect that in 2020 Scotland played less with the ball and relied on defence & taking their opportunities when they came. Game plan changed in 2021 to increasing ball in hand time whilst maintaining a solid defence. Again, effective and a singular moment of excellent last minute welsh defence effectively took the title from Scotland.

Toonie, in these two years showed that Scotland didnt need the ball to perform well but also didnt need to kick the leather off the ball to be successful. They just needed to have a strong defence and be ruthless in attack, convert every single opportunity.

2 years is a long time in pro rugby though, and whilst kicking from hand (not just quantity but purpose) became ever more important from 21-23, Scotland didnt adapt. in 2023 Six nations, Scotland kicked 4129m from hand whereas Ireland and France kicked 4800 and 5100m(!) from hand respectively. This then rolled into the world cup and...

Long winded statistical breakdown of Scotlands play but it kind of shows that Toonie didn't innovate or even keep up with trends. He stuck to his attacking mindset. Thanks to the Ireland game, its possible to think Scotlands defence was sacrificied an the alter of attack, but Scotland were 6-3 down at halftime to the eventual world champions. Thats solid. Scotland are very comfortable without the ball but the seem to have decided that committing to an aerial attack is no longer worth the time and that ball through the hands is the most effective way to win matches. A potential hangover from 2021 where they almost won the tournament doing so...

Edit: work is slow today

A very good breakdown and interpretation of those statistics, tramp.

However, to look at it from a different perspective; were those two fourth places just another variation on Scotland finding new and inventive ways to fail? Compare and contrast with the Boks consistently finding ways to win by 1 point.

jimbopip wrote:A very good breakdown and interpretation of those statistics, tramp.

However, to look at it from a different perspective; were those two fourth places just another variation on Scotland finding new and inventive ways to fail? Compare and contrast with the Boks consistently finding ways to win by 1 point.

Winning is a habit! I think mindset plays a part, you can have an excellent, tactical approach to the game but if you arent in the habit of winning regularly...

The Wales game in 2021 is key - a red card to Fagerson for a clumsy clearout/Wyn Jones popping his head up as Fagerson charged in didnt help. Wales also managed to be the beneficiaries of numerous red cards in that tournament, was frustrating as h3ll to watch. That combined with an amazing bit of defensive skill by Watkin to deny VdM... Is Fagerson red a mindset thing? possibly... the VdM denial, nah. thats good play by Wales.

A mixed bag. I think Toonie has maximised Scotlands potential. Where we get despondant is the tactical approach and the head drop. Especially against Ireland.

What next for the six nations? A better kicking game seems imperative. Both wales and England will be much improved. Scotland need to be better in the air overall. It seems inevitable that we’ll see some tactical alterations and team changes.

Losing kinghorn vs Ireland was a big blow. It undoubtedly affected Scotland’s attack. Overall though, the game plan wasn’t good enough. NZ showed what was required in all areas of the game to beat Ireland.

As O'Gara noted - to play against a rush or blitz defence, you need to go through it. I'd hope that come six nations time, when the other six nations teams note how to beat Scotland via blitz, Scotland decide to play through it instead.

Otherwise, Scotlands game plan is actually quite successful in recent times against England, Wales, Italy and France. Considering Felix Jones is off to be Englands defence coach you'd expect them to blitz Scotland as the boks did.

Edit: How Scotland change their tactics and selection will reflect heavily on Townsends skill as a coach. 3rd/4th will be more of the same and i'd be despairing a wee bit.

Has anyone paid attention to the SRU accounts? Was discussed in the Scottish rugby podcast on BBC.

Despite having a large number of home games with large crowds, multiple stadium full concerts and a Man United friendly, the SRU lost £10.5M.

That's not good news as there's no obvious additional income streams in the horizon.

Yes, I saw them, they actually generated a fair bit of media coverage this time around.

The income was actually the highest ever, so they are clearing doing something right, but costs were up considerably (player, coaches and exec wages in particular} they are also funding the women's game a lot better than they have historically.

I don't think we are in to bad a position, having Murrayfield available to host large concerts is certainly very advantageous, it does seem to be Scotland's premier venue for Mega Concerts now and they make a lot of money from that.

I expect some of the wage costs will get cut though and some big earners will depart to re-balance the books a little.

Edinburgh have apparently made Blairhorn an offer but they are not even pretending to be able to match what he could earn in France. DVDM and Boffeli are also likely to head across the channel when their time is up as well. hopefully we will have some good youngsters ready to take their places.

I am more sanguine now about established stars moving on.

It's literally the only way to give game time to the next generation. Leinster are proof of how vital that is.

Careers are short, head injuries may take their toll in later life and players are entitled to travel to be paid what they're worth. Typing this from my nice flat in Riyadh, I would say that Scots going where the work is, is hardly a new phenomenon.

RDW wrote:Has anyone paid attention to the SRU accounts? Was discussed in the Scottish rugby podcast on BBC.

Despite having a large number of home games with large crowds, multiple stadium full concerts and a Man United friendly, the SRU lost £10.5M.

That's not good news as there's no obvious additional income streams in the horizon.

There's nothing else for it. FES will have to sell one of his vintage Patek perpetuals.

Woah Ali Price moves to Edinburgh on a season long loan! Didn't see that coming at all

Edinburgh have plenty 9s...

RDW wrote:Woah Ali Price moves to Edinburgh on a season long loan! Didn't see that coming at all

Edinburgh have plenty 9s...

I noticed that there was a flat listed for sale in central Glasgow; red sandstone tenement, corner of Woodlands Rd and St Georges Rd, three bedrooms, very reasonably priced, described as "formerly belonging to Scotland player Ali Price". Could be he sees that his days at Glasgow are numbered and needs the playing time to put himself in the shop window.

Sic transit gloria mundi indeed.

Well that's the beginning of the end for AP. I think we may see him retire from international rugby soon, especially if dobie and Horne are more involved at the 6Ns.

Weird that he's not providing cover at Glasgow though. Could this be a weird budget shuffle?

George Carlin wrote:

RDW wrote:Has anyone paid attention to the SRU accounts? Was discussed in the Scottish rugby podcast on BBC.

Despite having a large number of home games with large crowds, multiple stadium full concerts and a Man United friendly, the SRU lost £10.5M.

That's not good news as there's no obvious additional income streams in the horizon.

There's nothing else for it. FES will have to sell one of his vintage Patek perpetuals.

I might have known FES would have a couple of Pateks on the walls. St Patek of The Perpetual Limp (chastity comes easier to some saints than others) is one of my favourite religious iconographers. I think his best work is the one that heavily influenced yon Vettrianno fella...you know, Jesus and Mary Magdelen frolicking in the waves at Dunoon while John The Baptist , in full tux and bow tie, stands by with fresh towels and a plate of bacon butties.

Shows how quickly your stock can fall as a rugby player, and why players take whatever deals they can get and make hay on their peak.

2 years ago he was a test Lion and probably in demand from other clubs for a decent pay packet.

Now he's farmed out to Edinburgh on loan!

George Carlin wrote:I am more sanguine now about established stars moving on.

It's literally the only way to give game time to the next generation. Leinster are proof of how vital that is.

Careers are short, head injuries may take their toll in later life and players are entitled to travel to be paid what they're worth. Typing this from my nice flat in Riyadh, I would say that Scots going where the work is, is hardly a new phenomenon.

How you coping with the no booze thing GC? I hear you can be flogged if caught with alcohol.

Although some people enjoy combining those things...

Sounds like a rare piece of joined up thinking from the SRU.

Always been a bit bonkers to keep our 3 best SHs at one club!

Dobie is clearly the future and needs the gsme time and Franco does seem to prefer Horne to Price, even if Toonie thinks differently.

He is a big earner at Glasgow abd I think he mah well have been moving on at the end of the season anyway.

Yes Edinburgh have plenty SHs, but none of them hsve been very convincing.

Price and Healy playing together makes plenty of sense.

Everything moves on in the end!

jimbopip wrote:

George Carlin wrote:

RDW wrote:Has anyone paid attention to the SRU accounts? Was discussed in the Scottish rugby podcast on BBC.

Despite having a large number of home games with large crowds, multiple stadium full concerts and a Man United friendly, the SRU lost £10.5M.

That's not good news as there's no obvious additional income streams in the horizon.

There's nothing else for it. FES will have to sell one of his vintage Patek perpetuals.

I might have known FES would have a couple of Pateks on the walls. St Patek of The Perpetual Limp (chastity comes easier to some saints than others is one of my favourite religious iconographers. I think his best work is the one that heavily influenced yon Vettrianno fella...you know, Jesus and Mary Magdelen frolicking in the waves at Dunoon while John The Baptist , in full tux and bow tie, stands by with fresh towels and a plate of bacon butties.

I think I'm revealing my true plebishness... I thought for a second you were talking about displaying jars of Bhuna and poppadoms.

Alas, I'm not sure I'll ever make it beyond prole status!

Glasgow news article on this said the approach was made by the SRU and Edinburgh. Definitely reads like they're not overly happy.

The wording of that tweet is quite intriguing. It is getting digested to the nth degree on the Warriors forum.

It also suggests Price wanted the move and strongly hints that despite if being a loan, he is not coming back.

A bit of a tame send off for someone who has been a very big part of the club these past 10 years!

Others speculating that Vellacott might be off due to being listed as not available for personal reasons last weekend. Seems like there’s several rumours circulating. Fantastic to have price though!

I ghink thst msy be a bit fsr fetched about BV, who in all honesty, dies not really have that many options, plus he is under contract for a few years.

Price is definitely an upgrade on sny of the current Edinburgh SHs, it has been a weak pisition ovrr there for years.

I thought they would move for Ben White after he dies a year in Toulon, they may still do that.

Finally Price moves on though the timing is suspect.

It made sense as G Horne and Dobie seem better suited to the gameplan. Price has not been the same since his Lions tour and being a clearly defined starter at Edinburgh may help. Kennedy will do fine as the third choice SH and fourth choice may be Ben Afshar who has supposedly been doing well in the Super Six as well as being one of the few bright spots in a struggling u20s set-up.

RDW wrote:Has anyone paid attention to the SRU accounts? Was discussed in the Scottish rugby podcast on BBC.

Despite having a large number of home games with large crowds, multiple stadium full concerts and a Man United friendly, the SRU lost £10.5M.

That's not good news as there's no obvious additional income streams in the horizon.

Took a look at it and thought it was not great. There were one off items and depreciation but if you go by cash flow, we lost about £8m last year rather than £10m.

Looking at the costs side are going up with £2.4m (or 21%) more for international rugby, £4.5m (or 22%) more for professional rugby and £2m (or 44%) more in commercial costs (whilst income dropped from commercial by £600k). There was also a £700k (or 20%) increase in club support funds. The board increased its payments by £220k to £1.4m and they spent £3.5m more on facilities than last year (50% increase)

Wages going up by £7m probably explains much of the international and professional rugby increases. New staff include 15 full time professional women, four GB 7's players, one more Glasgow pro player, five more commercial staff, three more rugby development staff and seven more recruits in High Performance rugby. Looking online, it says 28 getting an average of £25k each (so £700k) though that does not match up. Looks like wage inflation of existing staff mainly.

Club rugby brought income of £10.5m which seems low. Suggests they lost £15m between the two clubs.

What can we realistically do? Short run
- We pay more for our directors than the RFU did last year. I respect what Dodson has done but it is probably time for him to go and to have a bit of a clearout. We should be paying about £400-500k less than we are on executive pay
- We have almost 50 professional players listed for Glasgow and Edinburgh. After the World Cup year is done, both sides need to probably look at clearing the decks to get that down to 42-44 and rely more on the 15 academy players they have each. That probably saves £1m
- Have no idea why commercial costs exploded when revenue dropped. That needs to be fixed rapidly

Long run:
- Got to get a bigger stadium for Glasgow to increase ticket revenue and find a way to get Edinburgh ticket sales up.
- Sort out broadcasting rights for the URC or look at British and Irish league. The clubs need to get losses down to £1-2m a piece and TV is a big part of that
- Need to update Murrayfield though this will be at huge cost. Wales and England make more money from international ticket revenue. Wales had an average attendance higher than Murrayfield's capacity. In the long run, we need to have more hospitality for the FES' of the world and more cheap seats for the rest of us.

The Luvvies currently have five (5) stand offs.
The Rugby Club have a 12 covering at 10, Meatball covering the bench, Ross Thompson discovering the bitter irony of singing "Like A Rolling Stone" when you're without a home, a complete unknown.

So Savala or Swiel? Please not Blarehorn.

bsando wrote:Others speculating that Vellacott might be off due to being listed as not available for personal reasons last weekend. Seems like there’s several  rumours circulating. Fantastic to have price though!

My worry is 'personal reasons' means 'has done something wrong'. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened to a new Edinburgh captain...

Seems unlikely though as he's sitting in the captain's chair in the squad photo and we'll see if he's still classes as unavailable in the squad announcement this weekend.

From what has been shared via various folk semi associated with the club, his (Vellacott) child is in hospital.  Hopefully nothing serious but I think the club/SRU has realised that he obviously needs time off to be with his family, and with only Shiel fit as a player with any actual playing experience, we needed someone else to come in.