England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

First topic message reminder :

After the disappointment of the World Cup, can England be the first away team in 11 years to win a test series in India?

Three ODIs v West Indies (3rd December-9th December)
Five T20s v West Indies (12th December-21st December)
Five Tests v India (25th January-11th March)

alfie wrote:The Bashir situation indeed reflects poorly on Indian administration ; but it is what it is so pointless to speculate about might have beens...

...

I believe it also reflects very poorly on Stokes, McCullum and the England hierarchy. In line with KP_f's earlier post, there should have been a demand for the Indian authorities to immediately clarify what was deficient about Bashir's visa application in order that it could be rectified or, if nothing was deficient, for it to be processed. In the event of neither being forthcoming, England should have refused to start tomorrow.

Once Bashir had been chosen for the touring party, England's management should have fought hard to ensure he was treated as equally as any other player in the squad. Had it been a more established player, they would have done so. With a young kid, they find it acceptable to do little more than shrug their collective shoulders and says it is ''frustrating''. That is unacceptable to me.

msp83 wrote:Stokes did hint at Wood being the led and possibly only seamer for the first test. Think it'll be a bad idea for England. Udal, Giles, Moeen, and of course Swann and Panesar did have some success in India, but the likes of Hogard, Anderson and even Stokes did contribute significantly and more decisively, and the very mediocre slow bowlers they brought in have had not much impact.
They should go for
Crawley
Duckett
Pope
Root
Bairstow
Stokes
Foakes
Ahmed
Wood
Leach
Anderson

yup they need 2 seamers as a minimum & in my view their strength and Indian top order weaknees being seam...they should play a 3rd seamer
Root should be counted on and made accountable for about 10 overs per inning of bowling

alfie wrote:

Duty281 wrote:If England have read the pitch correctly, with prodigious turn from the off, then we can expect the test to not go beyond lunch on day three. I'm worried it'll be further damaging to the state of test cricket, after the recent farce in South Africa and the likely smashing of the West Indies in the day-nighter.

It does bring England into the game more, however. Australia of course managed a test win, that looked otherwise unlikely, on a spinning lottery pitch - scores of 109/197/163/78 for 1 in that game. If the pitch is something similar to that then England have a chance, although I'd still expect an Indian win. A normal Indian pitch, I feel, would have exposed the weakness in England's spinners.

Very much my take on this too. If it really is a crazy "lottery" pitch anything could possibly happen - but Tests that finish in two and a bit days max aren't really good for the game.

Guess we shouldn't go jumping at shadows yet though. Let us see how it actually plays on day one before getting too excited.  But if India name four spinners and leave out Siraj I might be covering my eyes

If India’s fourth spinner even managed to get a bowl in that scenario, this England batting line up would have done better than I expected!

Eng have declared their 11, three spinners and Wood
If pitch is a square turner from D1, then you really don't need 3 spinners.....2 +Root is more than enuf
you need 3 really if Ind is playing out 100 overs...but then having a 2nd seamer would be apt
Anyway it's a moot dicussion, the 11 has been named and Die cast.

https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/shoaib-bashir-visa-british-government-calls-for-fair-treatment-1417969
NEWS
British government calls for 'fair' treatment in visa process after Bashir flies home

Stokes reveals England briefly considered refusing to travel to India without Bashir

Meanwhile, it's the start of the second 'unofficial test' for the Lions against India A today.

And it's going terribly for the Lions. Bowled out for 152, with only Oliver Price making above 40, and India A are 81/0 after 20 overs. Heading for a big defeat are the Lions, an omen for tomorrow? Looks a pretty strong team for India A - Washington, Arshdeep and Sarfaraz Khan are all playing.

KP_fan wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/shoaib-bashir-visa-british-government-calls-for-fair-treatment-1417969
NEWS
British government calls for 'fair' treatment in visa process after Bashir flies home

Stokes reveals England briefly considered refusing to travel to India without Bashir

"but Bash knows he's had our full support," says Stokes.

Clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't have taken the field without him.

Duty281 wrote:unless they think Stokes can send down a few overs?

Just for the avoidance of doubt, no chance Stokes is bowling.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/jan/24/england-face-tough-battle-in-their-quest-to-storm-indias-home-fortress

"Stokes declared himself fit to play two days out from the first Test but it is clearly still touch and go, having had stitches put into his meniscus and a bone spur removed during a procedure he described as a “last resort”. The England captain is visibly slimmer than last year, down about 10kg in weight, but this is in part to aid his rehabilitation. Bowling, he said, is unlikely to resume before the summer. "

Duty281 wrote:Meanwhile, it's the start of the second 'unofficial test' for the Lions against India A today.

And it's going terribly for the Lions. Bowled out for 152, with only Oliver Price making above 40, and India A are 81/0 after 20 overs. Heading for a big defeat are the Lions, an omen for tomorrow? Looks a pretty strong team for India A - Washington, Arshdeep and Sarfaraz Khan are all playing.

7 of the wickets & generally top order fell to Indian seamers....and Eng's seamers get nothing out of it

Duty281 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/shoaib-bashir-visa-british-government-calls-for-fair-treatment-1417969
NEWS
British government calls for 'fair' treatment in visa process after Bashir flies home

Stokes reveals England briefly considered refusing to travel to India without Bashir

"but Bash knows he's had our full support," says Stokes.

Clearly not, otherwise you wouldn't have taken the field without him.

As I read the situation, Stokes floated the idea of not travelling, but such a decision is way above his pay-grade.
Has to be initiated by ECB and backed by the British govt....for it's sure to create a diplomatic row.
And the powers did not back it

Devastating stroke of luck for England, as Bashir gets his visa approved mere hours after he's left out of a team containing 3 frontline spinners

Not sure if this is gamesmanship as much as political but after Khawaja and the Pakistan team had issues recently, you'd hope the ICC would step in. But a lot to expect them to punish their bosses

Iyer injures his wrist in net throw downs and out of tomorrow's.game
Patidar will.make a lucky debut it seems

Iyer is a big blow for India when added to Kohli already being out. His Test record is short but his run scoring across formats is impressive in Asian conditions and he is clearly excellent at playing spin.

The depth of India's batting will still be terrific though with Ashwin and Axar genuine all rounders in these conditions.

The pitch is apparently looking very bare at either end with more grass in the middle. Apparently it's not quite as pronounced as the India vs Oz Test, where they might as well have had groundsman chiselling an ever deeper crater for Jadeja to bowl into between deliveries. It's sounding like a proper Bunsen that will rip from D1 though.

Not seen anywhere confirming Iyer is out. He suffered an injury in the nets, but resumed batting practice afterwards.

We'll find out tomm  morning if Iyer is on the playing sheet.
These days many mediamen jump the gun and on the other  hand bcci keeps injuries under cover for no real reason until the morning of game.
A lot of smoke.
Also the pitch.....it will turn for sure but will it break on day2 or is under prepared and will start jumping on D1.....even the Indians do not know.
They do understand for sure that the pitch should not be  rank square turner from day1 as it annuls the difference between sides.
The endevour is to create pitches like 2016-2017 when india could score 400+ and keep opposition to under 300 on first 3 days leveraging the superiority of Ashwin and Jadeja.
And then the pitch breaks towards end of Day4.

But the curators just couldn't  get it right in the last series vs Aus
The pitch either induced a 2.5 day finish and when they tried to compensate the pitch went so dead in the 4th test that the teams scored 1200 runs for the loss of 22 odd wickets in 5 days .

As I try to deciphet why Eng has 4 spinners including Root...I think they know for sure pitch will turn, but are not sure who are their best spinners or atleast the ones who can click and deliver.
So let's play all of them and hope atleast two will click

GSC wrote:Not sure if this is gamesmanship as much as political but after Khawaja and the Pakistan team had issues recently, you'd hope the ICC would step in. But a lot to expect them to punish their bosses

This really isn't much of a BCCI issue, its involved at the Government of India level. ECB could surely have put more pressure on the BCCI to push the process forward, and if they were serious enough, should have involved the UK government.

If Shreyas doesn't play, then it will be a serious setback for India. He's one of the best against spin really, probably even better at attacking spin, than either Kohli or Rohit. Hope he's good to go.

KP_fan wrote:

Duty281 wrote:So, what are our series predictions then?
...

...
Eng
Top runs
Foakes
Top wickets jack Leach

I thought KP-f's punt on Foakes being our top run scorer in the series was interesting and bold. On the plus side, Foakes is a classical style batsman who values his wicket and is accomplished against spin. I might even go along with KP-f if Foakes were batting at 5, his usual number at Surrey. However, he's destined to be number 7 in the first Test and probably the series (or even a bit lower if we go down the fool's route of using nightwatchmen and nighthawks) which I think will count against him piling on the runs. He struggles to bat effectively with the tail - and ours sure looks long and weak - failing to alternate the strike or go big. I fear that once our sixth wicket falls (assuming it's not him), he won't add too many more to his score.

Agree about Leach being the top England wicket taker provided his body and guts hold up.

It's interesting how fit the England players look. Now, looks can be deceiving of course. It isn't a beauty contest. From the photos and clips of training I've seen, there are multiple players who look in as good shape as I've seen though. Even someone like Jimmy, who's long been in brilliant condition, looks notably leaner than recent years. Stokes is looking by a distance the best he has for while, he's apparently down 10kg to help with his knees. Even Robinson, who's conditioning I've been very frustrated with, looks a bit thinner.

None of that means that I think England will win. I just find it interesting coming off the back of the Ashes and CWC though. In both of those England frankly didn't look up to it physically at times. The Ashes saw a few bowlers fall away drastically throughout innings. Whilst the CWC saw some very average fielding and lacklustre running between the wickets from a white ball unit who were leading the way there in the previous CWC cycle. Whilst they may not admit it publicly, that does feel like there's been a collective view and response from the players that maybe their preparation hasn't been up to scratch at times in the last year.

Good signs.

England win toss, bat first, 117ao just after lunch, Mark Wood top scoring.

You got the first bit right , KC : Stokes called correctly and will bat. Guess we will see about Wood ...

Both sides as expected.

Eng has won first 15 minutes
Pitch appears a batting beauty in first 4 overs

41 from the first 8 overs , lots of boundaries...so didn't take long to get Jadeja and Ashwin into the attack. And yes , there is spin ...

Duckett definitely looking to take Jadeja on just as much as the seamers...raced to 34 with a couple of boundaries and the fifty stand is up in 11 overs. Positive start

But Ashwin has the break ! Traps Duckett lbw...review won't save him...no. Actually only umpire's call , but that's enough to make it 55/1....

Meanwhile in Brisbane, Brathwaite's rotten run continues- gone for just four to the in form Hazlewood...

Can't watch two games properly at once : very inconsiderate of them to have both on at the same time so text will have to do for that one.

alfie wrote:Meanwhile in Brisbane, Brathwaite's rotten run continues- gone for just four to the in form Hazlewood...

Can't watch two games properly at once : very inconsiderate of them to have both on at the same time so text will have to do for that one.

Yeah, I'm flicking backwards and forwards too, alfie.
Ah... even the drinks breaks are synchronised. A couple of good tennis matches also on later.  

Pope gone early to Jadeja. Won't help his confidence against trial by spin , I'm afraid. Was really hoping he'd get a start here given his previous struggles against the curly stuff.

Now is this Root's downfall ? If he hasn't hit this he's in trouble...not given out but Jadeja insistent on a review...

Taking forever to get the technology up...

But looks like an under edge to safe and off the mark with two. Phew !

Wasted first 8 overs for 41 runs against seamers
And then started real cricket
58-2 in 15
Pope like I have always seen him...feet rooted to crease throwing hands away from body at ball

3 down for 60 now

Crawley caught at mid off ? Did it carry ? Think it did but these low catches are tricky. Erasmus is happy so suddenly it is 60/3 ...

It's not a spitting Bunsen, although there is turn
Eng need to look for 300 and Ind will look to keep them 220ish

Ind wil rue the formulaic approach of using seames for 8 overs

Good recovery from the Yorkshire pair...48 added to lunch with some sensible but positive batting. India using their three spinners exclusively since those first eight overs...which I guess suggests England's choice of three spinners and just one quick may not be totally mad. (unfortunately it isn't Swann Laker and Underwood exactly - but you do what you can with what you've got , eh ?)

As KP_fan says , not a spitting cobra - yet. But certainly more there for the spinners than their pace colleagues.

Good luck playing that delivery from Axar to bowl Bairstow - sheesh

Yeah that was a ripper ! Extra tricky because you usually don't expect Axar to turn one like that- he's more famous for pinning batsmen with the straight one.

Pity for England because Jonny had looked very good today and he and Root were ticking the score over rather well. Hope Stokes can get settled now...but at least 125/4 has already gone past KC's gloomy prediction

Oh dear...one brings two as Root falls to the sweep...I was a little uneasy about the way he kept trying that shot as it didn't seem to be really working for him today ; but that is a real blow with Stokes only just in and a bit of a tail looming...

Foakes is capable of a good support role but he is going to find this tricky I think with Jadeja and his mates on the hunt.

Runs had dried up ...no real surprise that Foakes has gone to a tickle behind from Axar. Batting looks hard work now and the ball is certainly doing plenty off this dry surface.

Think we can say England have probably picked the right attack ...but whether it will be good enough to exploit the conditions is the burning question. 138/6 with just the bowlers left to assist Stokes. If they could get to 200 they might be quite pleased : but that's a LONG way off...

The first "six" of the game

By an unconventional method : Rehan ran well for two and four overthrows followed...

Oh no...rats ! They've reckoned the batsmen hadn't crossed so just five. Ah well...still a bonus.

One fifty up and Rehan celebrates by lofting Ashwin for four : spirited stuff from the young fellow

But a bright little spree from Rehan ended by an inside edge from Bumrah , well caught by KS Bharat - who has been sharp behind the stumps today. 155/7.

Stokes a patient 13 from 43 balls : will he cut loose now just debutant Hartlley , Wood and Leach are left to assist ?

Got the first six now though : new lad Hartley isn't holding back and lofted that one nicely over long on...he's nearly caught the skipper with 23 at run a ball...

But gone now : plays over one from Jadeja and bowled to leave it 193/8... Useful little partnership, that

Stokes has produced a couple of aggressive shots lately so is moving up the gears perhaps : 28 from 58 as Wood joins him.

If KC's prediction of Wood as top scorer eventuates, England will have a very decent total

Stokes getting on with it now...back to back boundaries from Jadeja and he's on to 39 ...and another now so an expend over for Jadeja. Stokes 43 , England 210/8...

Tea at 215/8. Interesting. Fair bit of spin on offer so this might not be too bad a score ?

In isolation it's a reasonable go on this wicket I think. I suspect the Indian batsmen in home conditions against a fairly untried spin attack will do a bit better though

Stokes upping the action after tea...successive sixes off Jadeja (who has three wickets but has conceded 88 from 18) takes him to 56. Score up to 233/8.

GSC wrote:In isolation it's a reasonable go on this wicket I think. I suspect the Indian batsmen in home conditions against a fairly untried spin attack will do a bit better though

Totally agree GSC - not a bad effort by England (not a great one mind), but might pale in comparison by this time tomorrow...

India not doing very well with reviews today...just burned their third. No matter because Wood is bowled next ball

Mind you , here comes Leach ... Wonder if he's thinking about a certain Ashes a Test in 2019 ?

Took Stokes fifty plus balls to hit a boundary : but since tea , three sixes. He doesn't half change gears well...many of his best innings have moved like this one.

Keeps the strike . 241/9

All done at 245... Good bowling from Bumrah and Stokes has to settle for 70.

We will see how good a score it is in due course...my own opinion is it's not a bad total on this : but of course a lot depends on how well an attack featuring two very raw spinners along with a part timer and just two experienced hands can perform.

This has proved top be a good Indian pitch which spins but is not a Crumbling Cobra on day-1......allows the skill of Indian spinners to keep the opposition below 300...and then allows the skill of Indian batter to get them close to 400.

So Eng has done OK as any visiting side can against this attack.....they should have done 30 to 40 runs more...

India wasted first 8 overs conceding 40 runs..they needed to start with a spinner on one end....and rethink keeping a 2nd seamer in 11.

Washington would be a good replacement for Siraj