England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

First topic message reminder :

After the disappointment of the World Cup, can England be the first away team in 11 years to win a test series in India?

Three ODIs v West Indies (3rd December-9th December)
Five T20s v West Indies (12th December-21st December)
Five Tests v India (25th January-11th March)

Foakes dropping Rahul early on rather coming back to bite England - for a so called keeping specialist, he doesn’t half drop a lot of chances…

Hi Guildford and Olly...

Yeah a struggle for England here... I've been switching between games a bit but general observation is that the England spinners haven't been able to consistently hit the right length...and Rahul in particular has taken full advantage. Mind you , when Wood was introduced to attack Shreyas Iyer early on , he provided several easy boundaries so no better...

Not wishing to second guess selection , done is done : but perhaps Anderson might have been a better choice as the "one seamer" .

Hartley bowled better today. A low bar to clear , perhaps. But a plus.

Not looking good for the tourists with Jadeja into gear now and already thirty runs on. Could get very ugly...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Foakes dropping Rahul early on rather coming back to bite England - for a so called keeping specialist, he doesn’t half drop a lot of chances…

Just seen that. Definitely an edge although apparently given as a bye. If taken as it should have been, we couldn't have reviewed it as we burned all our reviews inside 14 overs yesterday, thanks in large part to Foakes' poor judgement of the system - comedy of errors!

A very handy function on my TV cover is an ability to rewind and catch action I've missed : used it to examine the latest England disappointment as Jadeja successfully reviewed being adjudged caught at short leg...for once the umpire had indeed got it wrong.

Of course India haven't had a chance to burn any batting reviews so injustice was avoided.

Leach a mixed bag : less pies than the other two ; but he really doesn't look like running through the Indian order. Still think he might have bowled a little more and the young 'uns a few less...

Ha : talk about trash gets wickets ! Rotten short ball from Hartley and Rahul somehow picks out Rehan in the deep to return the favour for his own wicket

We'll take it .

Rahul will think he's blown a certain century there.

I mean , Hartley has improved on yesterday : but really , that over : smashed for six , short rubbish gets a fluke wicket , and then he greets the new batsman with a full toss... Glad to see he is fighting back after yesterday's horror show ; but he needs to get a bit more control if he's to succeed at this level.

Wonder if there is any chance of England bagging a couple more quick wickets to keep this contest alive ? Still got Axar and Ashwin to bat so really need to get a couple of cheap ones...

alfie wrote:A very handy function on my TV cover is an ability to rewind and catch action I've missed : used it to examine the latest England disappointment as Jadeja successfully reviewed being adjudged caught at short leg...for once the umpire had indeed got it wrong.

Of course India haven't had a chance to burn any batting reviews so injustice was avoided.

Leach a mixed bag : less pies than the other two ; but he really doesn't look like running through the Indian order. Still think he might have bowled a little more and the young 'uns a few less...

Thanks for the update and comments, Alfie. Yeah, I would have expected Leach to have bowled more today - obviously more experienced and greater control than the rookie spinners. Hope he's not struggling with his health.

Shastri is tearing his hair and Gavaskar sounded in tears when KL "also" holed out.
It's right every Indian batsman has thrown his wicket away to shoddy deliveries with the exception of perhaps Jaiswal who was beaten a bit by Root.....but not totally excused

BUT
on look at the glass half full on a difficult pitch....EVERYONE has scored and a couple of them went to to 80+....wickets have not fallen in a heap......and it could have been much worse

Rehan is getting sharpest turn but not landing it consistently
Leach & Hartley ain't finding enuf spin
Root did spin....but not bowled enuf and is a part-timer so you really can't expect long spells.

Todd Murphy was not very skillful but could land 3 overs at the same spot in a row spinning into RHB and barely two of those deliveries holding line to go straight.
He was far more effective as he choked the scoring and Indians had to take chances to break shackles many of which did not come off.
That's what Eng has missed......land balls on a spot 4 overs in a row.

From here Ind should get min 100 runs lead...pitch has roughed further and Eng will struggle to get 150 in 2nd inning I reckon.

Foakes has dropped a catch...I won't go too harsh on him.....catchable but difficult and and odd or two will go down on such spinning pitch.
Pitch has been good sharp spin and bounce....but not uneven, not low , very playable with application and use of feet.
Indian have been overly proactive

The commentators have a cliche
" you have only yoursefl to blame for having used up your DRS reviews too early" if a side gets a worng decision and has not reviews.

To me it doesn't absolve the umpire of a wrong decision.

Mebbe but I think it's unreasonable to expect the umpires to be infallible when they get one look in real time (some less than others). Reviews are there to save you from the clear mistakes, not to try and buy wickets speculating.

after a Blitzkrieg start Jadeja has now gone in test match mode
and Bharat the first one playing in Pujara / Kohli get set proper test match mode all the way in his inning
He is a good sweeper and needs to sweep a bit...esp the full pitched deliveries that Root is throwing at him on his stumps

Surely this is out ? Given : but Jadeja reviews ...ah , he's hit it...

DRS working for India

Root really has looked much more likely than the other bowlers. Not sure what that says for England's spin resources going forward... Even Bharat now settling in , on to 21.

England look too tired. Think Root was denied in the first over after tea where he did get Jadeja out, but the umpire said no and no reviews were left.

Rehan bowling a lot of junk. Expected, though dispiriting nonetheless. Jadeja finally gets 50 and a misfield allows him to get to 52.

alfie wrote:Surely this is out ?  Given : but Jadeja reviews ...ah , he's hit it...

DRS working for India

Root really has looked much more likely than the other bowlers.  Not sure what that says for England's spin resources going forward...  Even Bharat now settling in , on to 21.

Root is got sheer talent and cricketing smart.....like Tendulkar
If he takes on bowling as his main suit, he would be a very good international level spinner.

And if he turns himself init a spinner, drops to no. 6 or 7 averaging even 30 to 35 with the bat...he can play on another 7 years

Fifty for Jadeja

He's a very good and consistent cricketer. Doing a great job for India here with both bat and ball.

England seem to have run out of ideas and simply can't maintain any control for long. India don't need to hurry anyway ; but the constant flow of loose balls allowing risk free boundaries is killing the fielding team here. New ball at last...might as well.

new ball should offer more zip...but will accelerate scoring
Old ball was visibly soft and not coming on

Now is this lbw decision going to stick ? Bharat reviews - why not ? - but it looks pretty good...

Yes that stays out on umpires call so some minor relief for England . Root again... But that was a handy 41 from the Indian keeper

Another for Root, richly deserved. Can England get on a roll now and keep India below 400?

With Ashwin and Axar still to go they might think they'll do well to keep them under 500

Seriously though Root has indeed deserved his wickets and more. With better support he might well have kept this Indian innings in a much less dominant position. Though that does point up the flaws of the two inexperienced lads and a fairly innocuous (still health challenged ? ) Leach.

112 ahead now. Getting close to unassailable...

India have given that one away. One away from the genuine tail now*.

*I hope England don't put 9 back on the boundary and get Wood to bowl short stuff at Bumrah!

Ha... A daft run out . England could have done with that fifty overs ago

So Ashwin can save his energy for bowling.

Teams should prohibit their bowlers from making these Rehan type dives that he juts did.

To much risk for the bowler or for that matter any fielder but especial bowler to break, pull up or dislocate something......and for what returns?
saving a run or two.......returns not worth the risk

KP_fan wrote:after a Blitzkrieg start Jadeja has now gone in test match mode
and Bharat the first one playing in Pujara / Kohli get set proper test match mode all the way in his inning
He is a good sweeper and needs to sweep a bit...esp the full pitched deliveries that Root is throwing at him on his stumps

Hi KP-f - take your point but, there again, you shouldn't be challenging the umpire when it's shown to be a clearly correct decision. Bear in mind you don't lose a review when it's ''umpire's call''.

king_carlos wrote: ...

Whilst the outward showing of Bazball is, "Never look back, never apologise", it does feel like behind the scenes they do make adjustments. I certainly felt that was the case with the batting after that farcical collapse at Lords. It did seem that they became more selective and intelligent after that. It also seems to have been the case with their physical preparation for this series. Rumours are that they'd made the U-turn on the keeper spot before Brook went home too. I think that's really good to see. Even if I still think they're likely to get hammered in this series.

Agreed in general, Carlos. However, Rehan currently looking like he interrupted his training run to buy a bag of doughnuts.

Axar digging out very good deliveries from Wood and Root in successive overs. I liked the comment on cricinfo that Axar's the most over qualified number 9 in the business.

No sign of this innings folding up any time soon. I do give England credit for battling away today and keeping it to about 3.5 per over in contrast to the runaway Jaiswal blitz last night ; but they've not been able to take wickets so the game has gone away from them - steadily rather than fast ...but still inexorably. Tired legs by the time this is done.

guildfordbat wrote:

king_carlos wrote: ...

Whilst the outward showing of Bazball is, "Never look back, never apologise", it does feel like behind the scenes they do make adjustments. I certainly felt that was the case with the batting after that farcical collapse at Lords. It did seem that they became more selective and intelligent after that. It also seems to have been the case with their physical preparation for this series. Rumours are that they'd made the U-turn on the keeper spot before Brook went home too. I think that's really good to see. Even if I still think they're likely to get hammered in this series.

Agreed in general, Carlos. However, Rehan currently looking like he interrupted his training run to buy a bag of doughnuts.

What chance the chocolates in his hotel room bar fridge when he gets back later this evening?

About zero I'd say. They'll be devoured not long after he swipes the card and steps through the door.

guildfordbat wrote:Axar digging out very good deliveries from Wood and Root in successive overs. I liked the comment on cricinfo that Axar's the most over qualified number 9 in the business.

It’s a bit unfair they have him coming in at 9 - could we get one of him/Ashwin/Jadeja to swap sides to even things up a bit?

421/7 so a " handy" lead of 175 . And still three wickets and three days to go. Think we can call this ! Would like to hope England make them work in their second innings but not sure batting time etc is in their skill set.

Ah well. Four more Tests to go so let us hope this one serves as a good warm up ...

Overall, a very poor day in the field. I get it's tough out there and England were always up against it, but the energy (once again) was so flat and uninspiring.

Root is England's second best spinner, on this evidence. It should be Leach, Root + one of Rehan/Bashir going forward, with the extra seamer coming in. I know he had his troubles, but I can't believe Jimmy wasn't selected for this test. Even if just for his economy and control.

Test could well be over tomorrow if England get shot out for sub-200.

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:after a Blitzkrieg start Jadeja has now gone in test match mode
and Bharat the first one playing in Pujara / Kohli get set proper test match mode all the way in his inning
He is a good sweeper and needs to sweep a bit...esp the full pitched deliveries that Root is throwing at him on his stumps

Hi KP-f - take your point but, there again, you shouldn't be challenging the umpire when it's shown to be a clearly correct decision. Bear in mind you don't lose a review when it's ''umpire's call''.

There are 2 different issues here in discussion within the same subject of DRS usage

I agree with you and also what GSC alluded to
That teams should us their reviews judiciously and not as gambles.

The second issue different from the above...if a team has used up it's reviews whether blown away in gamble in 15 overs or burnt slowly over 90 overs, does not absolve an umpire from a wrong decision.

I bring up the second issue because a lot of commentators sound like pardoning an umpire's wrong decision because the team has used up their reviews....especially if the team burnt the review in a speculative way.
In my view umpires don't get relieved of their responsibility at any time.....reviews left or not.

England, by the way, have confirmed that Jack Leach has suffered a knock to his knee in the field, which is why he hasn't bowled as much as expected
Cricinfo

So Leach's knee has taken a knock........not while batting but in the field....and not from a batsman's stroke.....as Leach wasn't standing at silly point.

I made the point earlier today...it's madness to get your bowlers to throw themselves around to save a run or two...and jeopardize your entire series.

Eng Lions meanwhile are down to 304-8 with Ollie Robinson n.o on 84 and wondering what's Robinson doing playing for Lions I realized he is a namesake of the one in test squad and a WK
Ollie Pope and Ben Duckett are also WKs I believe.....
Eng and Ind are overwhelmed with WKs who can bat

Saurabh Kumar arguably the best SLA and best spinner in India not playing internationals has taken a 5 for 100 odd in 30 overs
Saurabh will be replaced by Shams Mulani in the next test also arguably the best SLA and best spinner in India not playing internationals

Duty281 wrote:Overall, a very poor day in the field. I get it's tough out there and England were always up against it, but the energy (once again) was so flat and uninspiring.

Root is England's second best spinner, on this evidence. It should be Leach, Root + one of Rehan/Bashir going forward, with the extra seamer coming in. I know he had his troubles, but I can't believe Jimmy wasn't selected for this test. Even if just for his economy and control.

Test could well be over tomorrow if England get shot out for sub-200.

I obviously do agree Root is probably our second best spinner...but I am very wary of giving him a huge bowling workload...as he's the likeliest of our bats to hit a match winning knock, and would much rather his focus be there! It's a tough one - especially if Leach is now injured again...

A chastening day for England. It's a very indicative one of India's superpower in home conditions though - the depth that their 3 spinners add to the batting. Axar averages 45 at home whilst playing on rough decks. Ashwin averages 28 at home. Jaedja is at 42 currently. Even with a weaker than prime top 6 that's transitioned away from Pujara and Jinx, whilst Kohli and Pant are absent, their depth can bail them out. I'd honestly be pleased if England's top 3 averaged the same as Ashwin in these conditions. It's brutal to hit that when you've already taken 6 or 7 wickets.

KP_fan wrote:England, by the way, have confirmed that Jack Leach has suffered a knock to his knee in the field, which is why he hasn't bowled as much as expected
Cricinfo

So Leach's knee has taken a  knock........not while batting but in the field....and not from a batsman's stroke.....as Leach wasn't standing at  silly point.

I made the point earlier today...it's madness to get your bowlers to throw themselves around to save a run or two...and jeopardize your entire series.

The issue with this is that it only stands up when games aren't close. Hence, it's only really discussed in games such as this where one side dominate and there isn't a lot else to chat about.

At Edgbaston in 2005, when Lee and Kasper needed 30 more runs to win, I'm willing to bet there wasn't a single England fan on Earth thinking, "I really wish we had 20 fewer runs to play with here off the back of bowlers not really trying in the field". The same for Aussies when Cummins was chasing that total at Edgbaston in the summer just gone. The same for folk cheering on Stokes and Leach in 2019.

The only time you generally see the, "Don't try to save runs on boundary as the margins are too small to matter", argument is coincidentally in matches that aren't close enough for the small details to make a difference. Which kind of defeats the argument in itself! The reason the leading players try to save everything is because the best games, the ones everyone actually remembers more than a week or two after they are finished, those are the ones where saving runs on the boundary very much does matter.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Overall, a very poor day in the field. I get it's tough out there and England were always up against it, but the energy (once again) was so flat and uninspiring.

Root is England's second best spinner, on this evidence. It should be Leach, Root + one of Rehan/Bashir going forward, with the extra seamer coming in. I know he had his troubles, but I can't believe Jimmy wasn't selected for this test. Even if just for his economy and control.

Test could well be over tomorrow if England get shot out for sub-200.

I obviously do agree Root is probably our second best spinner...but I am very wary of giving him a huge bowling workload...as he's the likeliest of our bats to hit a match winning knock, and would much rather his focus be there! It's a tough one - especially if Leach is now injured again...

If Leach can't play the second test it doesn't bear thinking about.

India could put out a road and score 700.

India ahead by 175 with 3 wickets remaining. Very fine hands from Rahul and Jadeja, good support from Axar, and KS Bharat got a start that he couldn't convert. Same for Shreyas as well. With Rahul among the runs, Shreyas can't afford to have too many such opportunities missing, as Kohli is set to return for the 3rd test.
KL also should remember the value of hundreds. In 2016-17 season, he used to get a lot of half-centuries and ended up missing out on the big one and didn't seem to show enough apitite for the big runs even in his public interactions. Then when the inevitable bad patch came, not many remembered the 50s, and he got the chop... That Rahul was young and was a potential. Now he's a senior expected to deliver. People might wonder why would anyone want to say this on a day he played a very fine innings in lively conditions. But Rahul would do well to remember that he needs to cash in on the good form well and proper.
Shubman Gill is another, might end up experiencing another spell on the test sidelines if he can't get a big one in the next test. Among India's top 6, he seemed the most unsettled and tentative at the crease, didn't know what tempo to go with, seemed like he was deliberately start slow, address the talks about the perceptions about his approach to test batting, rather than the playing the conditions and the bowling on merit. With KL getting runs and Shreyas considered a very good attacking option against spin, it'll be a tough selection call that Rohit and Dravid will have to make when Kohli returns, and those conversations could surely involve Gill at this rate.

As for England, again the mistakes around their selections were yet again obvious. Joe Root has yet again proved that he's England's 2nd best spinner in the Post-Swann era, behind the underappreciated Moeen Ali. Jack Leach couldn't even produce the goods even in spinning conditions, and more importantly, perhaps he's not yet a hundred percent. He hardly bowled a long spell, and didn't get a lot of spin really. Tom Hartley is a club level slow bowler, Someone like James Anderson sitting out for him, just Ridiculous! And they kept bowling him on and on! Young Rehan Ahmed has potential, he, like Moeen and Swann, can actually spin the ball. The consistency isn't there, but if he can work on it and be given full support by the management without expecting him to turn into next Shane Warne, there is some hope.
Wood over Anderson, is something that could make some sense up front at least. Another matter Wood didn't look half the bowler that he was during the Ashes. His lines were awful really! Should have gone in for Anderson for Hartley, and played Wood as the 2nd seamer. Anderson would at least have offered some control...

Another terrible thing is that despite bowling 4 spinners, England couldn't get the overs bowled on time. That's just downright pathetic! I wouldn't want to see Ben Stokes miss any cricket when he's fit and available, but unless something of that kind happens, this won't stop...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Overall, a very poor day in the field. I get it's tough out there and England were always up against it, but the energy (once again) was so flat and uninspiring.

Root is England's second best spinner, on this evidence. It should be Leach, Root + one of Rehan/Bashir going forward, with the extra seamer coming in. I know he had his troubles, but I can't believe Jimmy wasn't selected for this test. Even if just for his economy and control.

Test could well be over tomorrow if England get shot out for sub-200.

I obviously do agree Root is probably our second best spinner...but I am very wary of giving him a huge bowling workload...as he's the likeliest of our bats to hit a match winning knock, and would much rather his focus be there! It's a tough one - especially if Leach is now injured again...

100% with you on this, Olly. Generally speaking, batters of Root's quality who bowl a bit stop with the second discipline well before his current age. Most players who have batted as much as Root end up with back issues at the very least. Bowling adds to that strain. He's a really useful 5th/6th option when the conditions suit, but, using him as part of a front line attack would hurt England more than it helps in the short and long term I think.

As feared, Rehan's leg spin is struggling in India. Very few wrist spinners do well here. Almost no overseas one. Since Benaud (52 wickets @ 18 in India is astonishing) the best records there are Imran Tahir and Shahid Afridi. 14 wickets @ 21 and 11 wickets @ 25 respectively. Small sample sizes for both. Famously, even Warne and Murali had poor records here, they're the most successful wrist spin bowlers ever.

I'd probably ere towards giving Bashir a chance in T2, hopefully alongside a fit Leach. At least you have one front line SLA and one specialist offie then. I do think there's an argument to see what Hartley can learn from this experience though, rather than throwing Bashir to the wolves as Hartley has been.

We knew the spin cupboard was bare, it now feels even worse than feared!

Duty281 wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Overall, a very poor day in the field. I get it's tough out there and England were always up against it, but the energy (once again) was so flat and uninspiring.

Root is England's second best spinner, on this evidence. It should be Leach, Root + one of Rehan/Bashir going forward, with the extra seamer coming in. I know he had his troubles, but I can't believe Jimmy wasn't selected for this test. Even if just for his economy and control.

Test could well be over tomorrow if England get shot out for sub-200.

I obviously do agree Root is probably our second best spinner...but I am very wary of giving him a huge bowling workload...as he's the likeliest of our bats to hit a match winning knock, and would much rather his focus be there! It's a tough one - especially if Leach is now injured again...

If Leach can't play the second test it doesn't bear thinking about.

India could put out a road and score 700.

I'll genuinely be fascinated to see what BBC HYS complain about if Dawson gets called up and struggles, whilst Foakes plays and continues to drop catches. I can only presume that Sam Cook or Ben Raine will suddenly become the next obvious and common sense answer to our struggles on these pitches!

As for Leach and his knee, if that somehow affects his continued participation in the series, that could be a serious disaster. Now that Moeen made it clear he's done proper, who can Stokes SOS? A certain South Africa born offspinner from the commentary boxe, who could also bat a bit!? Seriously, how really is this lad Bashir who should now be available? Can he be an improvement on Hartley?

While Root can't be the regular frontline spin option across conditions, he can surely play the 3rd spinner's role in proper spinning conditions. England need to stick to their strength, play at least 2 quicks, try and get some control on the scoring and if possible, attack with high pace like that of Wood in short spells. Bowlers like Boult, Anderson, Cummins, Holder, they've had some success in India. Club level spinners can matter in terms of quantity only on Lot Pitches where the quality doesn't matter as much...

msp83 wrote:Another terrible thing is that despite bowling 4 spinners, England couldn't get the overs bowled on time. That's just downright pathetic! I wouldn't want to see Ben Stokes miss any cricket when he's fit and available, but unless something of that kind happens, this won't stop...

Yep, suspensions are the only way. England's low energy contributes to these rubbish over rates.

king_carlos wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Overall, a very poor day in the field. I get it's tough out there and England were always up against it, but the energy (once again) was so flat and uninspiring.

Root is England's second best spinner, on this evidence. It should be Leach, Root + one of Rehan/Bashir going forward, with the extra seamer coming in. I know he had his troubles, but I can't believe Jimmy wasn't selected for this test. Even if just for his economy and control.

Test could well be over tomorrow if England get shot out for sub-200.

I obviously do agree Root is probably our second best spinner...but I am very wary of giving him a huge bowling workload...as he's the likeliest of our bats to hit a match winning knock, and would much rather his focus be there! It's a tough one - especially if Leach is now injured again...

If Leach can't play the second test it doesn't bear thinking about.

India could put out a road and score 700.

I'll genuinely be fascinated to see what BBC HYS complain about if Dawson gets called up and struggles, whilst Foakes plays and continues to drop catches. I can only presume that Sam Cook or Ben Raine will suddenly become the next obvious and common sense answer to our struggles on these pitches!

More likely to see England's 'premier spinner' called up than Liam Dawson, alas.

msp83 wrote:As for England, again the mistakes around their selections were yet again obvious. Joe Root has yet again proved that he's England's 2nd best spinner in the Post-Swann era, behind the underappreciated Moeen Ali.

I think some whatsapp/ sms messages might have landed already in Moeen's inbox

Dear f***ing god, please don't start the Moeen debate guys. I beg you. I've already basically given up on the England rugby thread here because of their version of unending circular arguments. Please don't do it to 606v2 cricket. Just, please. I'd genuinely rather we go back over discussing whether KP should've been dropped after text-gate.