England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

First topic message reminder :

I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Indian experts who have seen this pitch and played in Ranchi opine it will be more of the same as Rajkot.
Gill in his  Press Conf now talked about the difference between sides being Indian seamers and that Bumrah is great but others also know how to extract reverse on these pitches
Implies Ind will have 2 seamers and going by Indian express report who have gotten it right earlier also, akashdeep debuts

After hyped up talk of never seen a pitch like this with cracks before Eng back paddle to 2.spinners and 2 seamers+Root

Robinson and Bashir for Wood and Rehan means batting further weakened

Yes. From The Telegraph's side that Duty posted last night, we had arguably England's best ever number 11 in Hartley. Now we have two rank number 11s in Anderson and Bashir.

Anyway, just have to leave the top 7 to get the runs and the rest to take 20 wickets.

Not too stressed on that - Hartley and Robinson will bat 8 and 9, and both are more than capable with the bat, hitting handy 20/30s. If we're worrying about what 10 and 11 are like with the willow, then things have likely gone very awry elsewhere!

I of course fully accept that, Olly, and did try to acknowledge so in my final sentence. If the top 7 don't make any runs, we're cooked whatever!

However, pushed into or choosing to briefly retreat into a statistical bunker, I would mention that in this series Rehan and Wood combined are averaging 14 more with the bat than Bashir and Anderson combined. That's 28 runs per Test - the exact margin of our only win.  

I'm really just saying that although numbers 10 and 11 shouldn't be automatically excluded if they can't bat, it's nice and sometimes can be handy if they're not walking wickets. A point that msp and KP-f have regularly made about India.

With Anderson in the side it's also worth remembering that he's just four away from 700, and 17 away from 1,000 international wickets.

It'll also be his 186th test, putting him just 14 short of Tendulkar's all-time test record. Starting to think Jimmy might reach 200.

Here is the first closer image of the scruffy / cracked end of the pitch,
The blue box is cracked but that's the yorker length outside LHB's off and RHB's leg stump so it doesn't really come into play.

The red is a dead spot for the RHB , but is the overpitched length outside LHB's off stump, which normally should not trouble a batter if he goes on the front foot and take the ball on half-volley.
Now we can see  they have Bashir in specifically to try and hit that area when Jadeja, Jaiswal or Kuldeep would be batting.....more than a blanket lack of trust in Rehan I think

You can bet Bashir will be bowling from that end....and I don't think Jaiswal / Jadeja will have trouble taking right foot out and meeting on half volley in first / second innings
But as game progresses that patch will grow in diameter in 3rd/ 4th inning.

So Anderson going to play his 3rd consecutive test in the series. I am sure he'll be itching to go, to try and set the record straight after that rare and unusual pummeling that he received in the last test. After getting tortured by him several times in the past home and away, it was nice to see what young Jaiswal did in the last game. But the old man wouldn't want to go away quietly, and his body letting it, he's still the biggest mental threat for the Indian batters. Lets see though, as to how that bodyis going to hold up.
Robinson again, has nice attributes in terms of bowling skills. But his fitness, particularly match fitness hasn't been reflective of modern standards more often than not. Lets see what he can offer on test return...
Bashir I feel, KPF's assessment is spot on. Think the look of the pitch and the number of left-handers in the Indian lineup with the possible inclusion of Axar as well, may have made a case for him...
Hope India would go with Akash if they go in with the 2nd seamer. Else Axar. I wouldn't mind Washi for Patidar, but don't see it happening, and think Rajat should get another opportunity... Once Kohli/Rahul returns, he wouldn't be fronting up in the queue, so he better make use of this opportunity...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Robinson and Bashir in. Wood and Rehan out. Anderson retains his spot.

Not massively surprised at Rehan being dropped. As we’ve seen, Stokes has generally thrown the ball to Rehan last, even preferring Root to bowl before Rehan. Anderson staying in indicates that maybe the pitch isn’t going to turn from ball one…unless  England have misjudged it.

Seems the sensible selection - albeit hopefully Jimmy is not too tired after his exploits in the last test. Would be helpful if Stokes can send down a few for his sake I think.
Excited to see how Robinson goes, think he's been slightly unlucky to have not played to this point - he went very well in Pakistan when reverse was on offer, and fancy him to do so here too.

Honestly, I thought Jimmy looked knackered in the second innings of T3 though. 4 consecutive days in the field and a lot of overs bowled. Part of me feels that Atkinson needed to player here if they rated him enough to be one of 4 seamers in the squad.

If they are expecting the cracks to lead to shorter innings where Jimmy's accuracy will be invaluable, then I see the logic. Double guessing how Indian pitches might behave for seamers is tough though. Pitches that look like they might crack up are sometimes just very very slow.

Robinson does look thinner from what I've seen of them in training. I remember seeing him early last summer I think for Sussex, he frankly looked like he was coming out of winter a few stone heavier than he should have been. I try not to be critical when bowlers limp off during a Tests. Being a seamer is brutal. When a slower seamer with Robinson's history of conditioning issues kept having back trouble, I can't help but wonder if it's injury luck or donuts.

He's got so much talent. I just hope the work ethic is there to back it up. High release, accuracy and seam control. It's a package that should be useful anywhere. He was very good in Pakistan.

Bashir impressed me in T2, so no worries with that selection for me. I think switching the young leggie for a young finger spinners is a reasonable call now that we've seen Jaiswal and Sarfaraz punishing spin so brutally in T4. They were picking length up instantly.

So Stokes has done the first thing successfully....won the toss and unsurprisingly chosen to bat.

Rehan is off home for family issues , though these were not related to his non-selection for this game as only just arisen. Does leave spin spares a bit sparse for next week but worry about that later if at all.

And , as expected , India hand a cap to Akash Deep in their only change.

Looks good akashdeep doesn't he so far?
Shattering for him to get a clean bowled off a n.b

Crawley making his second.life count
Blasts 19 off Siraj over

Plenty there for the seamers in the first half hour... Akash impressive on debut. Thought he had his first wicket when he sent Crawley's off stump flying with a terrific delivery - only to get the dreaded retrospective no ball signal... But generally has looked quite threatening.
Bounce and carry ; both bats struggling early , with nine singles before the first boundary straight driven by Crawley. Couple of balls seemed to surprise with the bounce : will be interesting to see how that develops.

Bit more like the normal England start in Siraj's fourth over : Crawley going 4 4 4 and finishing with a six soaring over long on...

37/0 after seven.

And good afternoon KP_fan ...

Yes Deep looks like a serious prospect. Not express but nippy enough ; and got most of his stuff so far in the right areas so not giving the batsmen any chance to relax.

Early appearance now for Jadeja...

alfie wrote:And good afternoon KP_fan ...

Yes Deep looks like a serious prospect. Not express but nippy enough ; and got most of his stuff so far in the right areas so not giving the batsmen any chance to relax.

Early appearance now for Jadeja...

GM alfie
142kph fastest, 139 kph often, he will for sure find reverse.
Duckett survives double.umpires call

But Akash gets him

Bit of luck for Duckett in that he wasn't given out lbw on field then , surviving on umpires call . But couldn't make it count as he edges behind and Deep has his first wicket ...reward for good bowling

47/1

Akash gets Pope...breathing fire
Root reviewd

Two in the over ! That surprised me : thought Pope was well forward and the ball was surely going over - though he's not the tallest ! - but drs is convinced and he has to go. Very good review by India !
Now another review against Root .........no this one is too optimistic and they lose one referall.

What an over though.

Always looked outside off impact to naked eye

Boy oh Boy, he get Crawley bowled neck and crop bails flying a 2nd time
He looked good in Ranji footage I saw without speeds....but this is super
Those breaking into Indian team after few consecutive good ranji seasosn in mid age (he's 28)are hungry.
I am hoping Patidar aged 30 can also deliver in this game
Kuldeep shud be in when akash tires

That one turned from Jaddu
And bounced a bit

There have been pinch hitting 40s and 30s from Crawley and Johny
Not enuf , someone needed to get a big 100 and get Eng to post 400

Root survived as umpire ruled bat first and I saw pad first
Stokes falls plumb
Eng 3 wickets down too many and I see them struggling to get much beyond 200

Wow. Had to recharge tablet - and heart - after that first hour. Busy session , eh ? Fantastic debut for Akash Deep. Bowled Crawley twice with similar deliveries - in between Zac at least hit some boundaries. The under fire Bairstow looked better than anyone in making a rapid 38 but then spoiled it by attempting an injudicious sweep to Ashwin - and Stokes got one that rolled along the ground .

Root has survived two lbw revues (so India have won two dismissals and lost two referalls , all in two hours : TV umpire has been busy !) England will be hoping he can shepherd the tail towards 200 but it really doesn't look easy at all out there. I can't see this match going much past Sunday.

That Pope DRS review is actually hilarious - at least try and hide it.

Hey Olly...you starting to suspect something is amiss with the ball tracker ? I don't really : it is rare that a decision looks crazy once seen on replay so I think the margin for error is basically OK. But there really have been several cases in this series where I'm left scratching my head...

Must have been only a whisker from being "too far down the pitch" for drs.

Unless the pitch suddenly starts playing a lot better after lunch - which seems unlikely - it is going to be very hard work for batsmen ; and you'd think the longer it goes the more we are going to see like that Stokes lbw.

alfie wrote:Hey Olly...you starting to suspect something is amiss with the ball tracker ?  I don't really : it is rare that a decision looks crazy once seen on replay so I think the margin for error is basically OK. But there really have been several cases in this series where I'm left scratching my head...

Must have been only a whisker from being "too far down the pitch" for drs.

Unless the pitch suddenly starts playing a lot better after lunch - which seems unlikely - it is going to be very hard work for batsmen ; and you'd think the longer it goes the more we are going to see like that Stokes lbw.

They already admitted an error with it last test - and that Pope one is actually hilarious! Hits a bloke who is 2-3 metres down the wicket (they extended the 2.5m thing btw) on the top of the knee roll at 85mph and you’re meant to believe it evens out the rest of the way? Come on

Rate it’s going Crawley will get one that hits him in the chest but somehow on DRS it dips down to crash into middle

alfie wrote:

Unless the pitch suddenly starts playing a lot better after lunch - which seems unlikely - it is going to be very hard work for batsmen ; and you'd think the longer it goes the more we are going to see like that Stokes lbw.

Other than one that kept low from jaddu, I haven't seen anything difficult from the pitch

Judge the pitch when both sides have batter applies here

I'll take that as a vote against the ball tracker then...

Jokes aside I think picking when to refer might be crucial in this game. At least we haven't got Joel Wilson on the job.

I see Agnew musing about bowler selection : "should they have picked Atkinson ?" . Bit early for that , no ? I actually think Robinson might do rather well on this - but he might need to assist a bit with the bat before worrying about that.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:

alfie wrote:Hey Olly...you starting to suspect something is amiss with the ball tracker ?  I don't really : it is rare that a decision looks crazy once seen on replay so I think the margin for error is basically OK. But there really have been several cases in this series where I'm left scratching my head...

Must have been only a whisker from being "too far down the pitch" for drs.

Unless the pitch suddenly starts playing a lot better after lunch - which seems unlikely - it is going to be very hard work for batsmen ; and you'd think the longer it goes the more we are going to see like that Stokes lbw.

They already admitted an error with it last test -

For those who think that sentence in bold implies DRS or ICC admitted
Take note
An/some English media reported that a source reported that mccullum reportedly chased down match refree who reportedly said there was an error in the image displayed onscreen

You don't think the pitch has been tricky , KP_fan ? You must be used to batting on some difficult surfaces , I think. Some of the early stuff from the pace men was definitely surprising Crawley and Duckett with the bounce (not the wicket balls ; they were just good bowling. ) but they were certainly unsettled. And while the Stokes ball was the only really wild one , there have been a number from the spinners keeping very low for the first session of a Test Match. No minefield - yet ; and the softer ball is probably going to be a bit easier to deal with : but I don't see it as one on which a batsman will be able to feel too comfortable even when bedded in. India may well fare better on it when they bat ; but that will be down to respective skills in both batting and bowling on such surfaces.

KP_fan wrote:Always looked outside off impact to  naked eye

Morning / evening folks - just been catching up with the first session highlights. On first viewing, didn't think Pope was out there but accept the drs which showed otherwise. Certainly don't blame the onfield umpire (Tucker?) for not giving it - understandably too much doubt for him.

From what I've seen, Deep looks a handful. Good movement and a bit of pace too.

Root and Foakes now digging in. Foakes can actually bat - thought you were a tad dismissive lumping him in with ''Foakes and the spinners'' the other day, Alfie - and especially against spin but hasn't shown it so far in this series and needs a proper batter to partner him. As mentioned to KP-f on the eve of the series, Foakes is probably best at number 5 where he bats for Surrey; however, as per Duty recently, that isn't ''practical'' for England.

Anyway, this is clearly a very important partnership. Got to keep it going ....

Should also put in a word of praise for the Indian ground fielding: several excellent saves in covers/outfield in that first hour or so , that really helped keep pressure on the England bats. Not that the run rate was all that slow of course : was around four - five per over , though has slowed a lot since lunch. Of course just as I type we see a couple of misfields . But the original point stands.

Root and Foakes playing sensibly here and showing you can bat on this if you take care. Do think the older ball is making life easier ; but suppose it may also have to do with the moisture going out of the pitch. Akash certainly doesn't look as dangerous in this spell . The question will be how it wears as the game progresses...

During lunch, Cook was emphasising to UK viewers that based on all my knowledge and experience, this pitch is not going to get any better''. However, Knight on comms this session has said otherwise. I realise Knight is never the most popular pundit here but I'm inclined to go with him.

I am though still scratching my head at the grubber that did for Stokes. What caused that and could it really go away?

Oh hi , guildford...

Apologies to you - and Foakes of course , for seeming to underrate his batting the other day. I honestly didn't mean to as I respect his ability to play "sensible " innings , particularly in support of a top bat. I think I used that expression rather than include him in "the tail" as a perhaps lazy summary of the remaining batting available to England at the time. I was probably getting a little pessimistic by that stage of the game

Don't wish to hex them but pleasing to see they've managed to settle things down since the break. Root does seem to be playing more in his "normal" style than the rather frenetic stuff he's been producing lately. Very much what's needed at present - though I am disposed to credit good Indian bowling today , rather than English recklessness , for that first session.

An hour without a wicket , eh ? Quite the contrast to that first session ! Batting definitely looking easier against the older ball : but of course that means they need to make more runs in this first innings...

Pitch has played well after lunch...and Eng's two technically better batsmen have looked comfortable

why ?
because they have played A-largely off the front foot and B- straight bat...avoiding sweeps and slogs.

The first hour and a half there is some dampness in the pitch that makes the ball both jag for seamers and spin for spinners.

With the anomaly of one that kept low for Stokes which he would have a half chance of meeting with bat had he take a full stride forward and presented straight bat...instead if going on Backfoot and trying to flick it....the pitch look settled.

Hi Alfie - no problem, we're probably much as one on Foakes' batting. He's done exactly what's been needed since lunch - as has Root which in turn has helped Foakes. Still early days (hopefully) in this partnership so not wishing to jinx them ....

Meanwhile, Cook now telling UK viewers ''we haven't seen anything really misbehave [since lunch]'' but otherwise keeping quiet about his earlier pitch concerns.

guildfordbat wrote:During lunch, Cook was emphasising to UK viewers that based on all my knowledge and experience, this pitch is not going to get any better''. However, Knight on

I heard that from Cook too.
Although he has played a lot in India and successfully too, I think he was fooled into thinking of the pitch as a "Rank Turner" when in fact it was just an iota of extra dampenss.
Which can happen as weather is dry and to hold pitch together the curator waters it a bit more than normal.
Dampness produces essentially more spin and cutters ( like fast spin) for seamers.

Dropped catch down the legsise by Jurel
He doesn't read Kuldeep

I didn't hear exactly what Cook said ; but although the early funny stuff off the pitch seems to have disappeared since lunch I still don't see this as flattening out into a road. It may be a bit of a "new ball " pitch for a day or two ; but I will be surprised if it isn't very difficult to bat on by Sunday afternoon . You don't often see a grubber like that on the first morning of a Test without a few more unplayable deliveries occurring later in the game...

Hi again Alfie - meant to ask before. You credit India's bowling for their morning success which, from what I've seen on highlights, is totally fair; Deep, in particular.

You don't blame ''English recklessness''. Generally, I would also go along with that but would question Bairstow's dismissal. Thoughts? It seemed he fell to a rash shot when a lot more was needed than a breezy 30 odd. Good that Bairstow had found some form but disappointing not to have a cooler head. Harsh or fair?

Yes I agree Jonny made a mistake in taking on the sweep against Ashwin at that point. He probably didn't need to : had taken the bowler for 11 in his previous over , and was scoring at better than run a ball anyway. But on the other hand his aggression had set a rampant India back after Deep had looked like running through the innings and fielders were crowding the bat in expectation every ball...
Sometimes it is hard to know exactly when to dial it back and reckon "normal" cricket is the way to go. So I'd probably call it failure of execution more than "silly shot" ; though I'm sure he'd be kicking himself for choosing that particular shot against that ball , as the variable bounce was making sweeping a bit of a dodgy business.
Other than that the wickets all fell to bowling that was just too good for the bats - and/or freakish.

And for all that talk of easy conditions, that last over contained a couple of balls behaving oddly...one up , one down.

And here is a referall...but that's cost India their last review. Two successful earlier today but that was a bit of a "hopeful" try.

Definitely seems more balls doing a bit again now though.

37 overs in a session.

England getting back into this through proper test cricket. Root has shelved the lunacy and is heading for a good score. As ever, a good toss to win. 300 would be good.

a 37 over session for about 85 runs @2.3
Eng played normal cricket and looked untroubled.

I am seeing all thru this series shades of decline in Ashwin...essentially he is not getting a big spinning offbreak going any more.

Wow...tea already. 198/5 represents a good recovery

Slow : 37 overs for just 86 runs ; but that's fine , though they'll be hoping to go on again after the break. Nice to see the over rate has actually made it past the 15 per hour for the day for a change

Root playing without fear, trusting in his ability and decision making, and knowing he has the confidence of his captain and coach - that is the essence of what 'Bazball' is about.

A century partnership and only the second of the series for England. Both have involved Foakes. The first for 112 in the opening Test alongside Pope where he (Foakes) made 34. Now an unbroken 102 partnering Root with Foakes on 37.

As said before, Foakes is at his most effective when playing in a traditional and restrained middle order role with an established batsman alongside him and performing the more prominent part. As today and in T1, Foakes' batting can be very valuable although his lack of versatility remains a frustration.

Julius hitting the nail on the head there

And a lovely way for Foakes to bring up the hundred stand ...getting stuck into Ashwin this over ! 224/5 and only the second hundred stand of the series. Nice time for it...

Foakes has featured in top 2 partnerships for Eng in this series.
But yet again he falls to one reversing in like T3
The difference really has been thr wicket taking ability of Indian seamers

guildford on the money re Foakes .

He is never going to transform an innings on his own ; but when he can play the supporting role - as today - he can be invaluable.

Of course all this praise has jinxed him and gone for that excellent 47

Could also say taking Ashwin to the cleaners went to his head ? Both Crawley and Bairstow got out just after hitting big sixes in the first session so it's becoming a pattern today...

No matter : that stand has got the innings back on track and up to the bowlers now to support Root to extend it. At 227/6 they can still hope to push it up to something pretty handy. Next new ball 11 overs away...

A few looking decent again but ultimately getting out for 30s and 40s, feels like a few runs left out there. But if Root and whatever is left can somehow get this up around 300, it might just about be a workable total