England's Winter of Cricket 2023/24

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I haven't seen a ball from today. Not sure I want to seeing the scorecard.

I woke up early for work, checked the score, saw the collapse, felt sad. Then didn't look again until after close.

It all looked so promising for a moment.

Crawley's lucky day ? India choose not to review a catch at short leg...drs would have seen him on his way ! Kuldeep bowling beautifully here : lots of spin... Rather confounding the theory that this pitch might be one just for the pace men ...

alfie wrote:Crawley's lucky day ?  India choose not to review a catch at short leg...drs would have seen him on his way !  Kuldeep bowling beautifully here : lots of spin... Rather confounding the theory that this pitch might be one just for the pace men ...

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Evening/ morning Alfie and all - really good reaction and scurry by Sarfaraz to get to the ball before it landed. Jurel doing a fine impression of Foakes in displaying an embarrassing lack of support for his short leg.

msp83 wrote:

alfie wrote:Hi msp...

Not much bounce , as you say. The movement in the air made the first hour tough for the bats ; but it does look a very good pitch ... And potentially a good toss to have won.

Not sure your pal Pope will be ecstatic about facing spin both ends to start his knock ; but not likely to be as tricky as one or two of the other matches - at least over the first few days.

Hi alfie,
yes, after a tough first hour without success, Kuldeep bringing India back into the game, and yes, Oliver Pope couldn't do it here either. really self-destructed

Hi msp - I've now caught up with the morning highlights. ''Self destructed'' seems spot on about Oliver (as you would often say) Pope's dismissal. Think it was Vaughan the other day saying that assuming Brook returns in the summer, then at least one of Pope, Bairstow and Foakes will be left out. Pope making a strong case to be that one.

Crawley is one lucky batter
India has to get him 2.5 times to take his wicket

Crawley's luck ran out...Got a great ball from Kuldeep , who is having a wonderful day. Very much India's hour , that.

Bairstow didn't look like wanting to get, set and play a long inning.
He had decided on a pinch hitting until he misses one....and has also probably decided enuf of test cricket

And then we see the best and worst of Jonny Bairstow...looked totally in command with his counterattacking ...went to 6000Test runs with a big six : and then gone for another annoying 29.

Burned a review too . Presumably didn't realise he'd edged it ...but drs disagreed. Kuldeep destroying England...

...and worse now as Root has gone too ! Review won't save him here ... All going south fast at 175/5

Well Root falls now and Eng are staring at a severely sub-par score on a batting beauty of a pitch.......quite a collapse from 100-1

Umpire allowed the DRS call even as timer struck Zero, when he could have disallowed, but India won't mind as it was plumb and burnt a review for Eng

Like Root, Stokes too reviews one hitting middle of middle and Eng's last 3 batters have burnt 3 reviews.
Stokes totally failed to read Kuldeep all through this series
Home, dog, garden blossoming with spring & family on Eng's minds......fight over, series over....and an inning defeat it might be.

Paddikal pulls out a good catch.....outfield catching good, only a couple of half C&B dropped

Confess I'm a bit shocked at the way this has folded up... Kuldeep in particular has been fantastic ; but all the Indian bowlers have been excellent today. What a collapse - on what is supposed to be a good batting pitch.
Comms talking about being 100/1 : true ; but that scoreline owed much to some good fortune , to be honest. They've really been outclassed today.

Remaining questions : can they make 200 ? And can the bowlers stage a fightback ? (With the ball , I mean : bit late for the batting !)

Disastrous session for the tourists , 94/6 off 30 overs...

For all the talk of a great batting pitch , batting never looked easy. Was a good deal of swing early , and spin later. But that's still very disappointing . Annoying thing is three players getting high twenties and then out : really need to kick on once you get a start. Not to suggest it is easy though : Indian bowling has been exceptional

This is definitely fuel for Duty's no improvement since the last tour fire! Best we can hope for is it is a rank turner that elevates Hartley and Bashir to be our own Jadeja and Ashwin. Said more in hope than expectation

Yes I'm sure Duty will be piling on with the criticism ... Have to hope for something like that first match "miracle turnaround" otherwise this will be a rather deflating end to what was really a rather competitive series .
Will be a fresh start at home , of course, But this tour certainly signals that they have still to make the next step up.

Has still been fun to watch...mostly.

Foakes has come out after tea in positive mode ! Couple of boundaries and at least the 200 has been crossed. Good stuff

Bumrah back to try and clean up the tail...

Bumrah in Robinson class with no balls... India maybe a bit too relaxed after resumption , runs racing along since tea.

Liking Foakes' approach : no point just blocking at this stage , try and get 'em while you can.

Ah but all good things , etc... Three for Ashwin ; bit unlucky there Ben ...pad to arm and back on to stumps. 218/9.

Foakes playing uncharacteristically positive fashion, stung by criticism last game , but doesn't covert.

This ain't no rank turner, or any turner at all....450 par first inning pitch IMO

What a disaster. Crawley the only consistent bright spot in this batting lineup

a.o 219....Kuldeep the star who bamboozled them all, Ashwin gets 4 cheap wickets

218 all out.

Reckon that's well under "par". Hats off to Kuldeep and Ashwin - though the other bowlers supported them well ; and a couple of very fine catches contributed.

This will be a test for England's resilience. Can they now fight back to stay in the game - or will the "ready for the plane home" factor kick in ?

Just re watching the dismissals : mixed bag of aggressive shots and passive defence bringing the same result in the end. Only Crawley passing thirty : but to be honest he could have been out about three times before he was. They just weren't at the races today.

Over to you , Jimmy...

Rohit looking good...

Not the movement we saw in the morning for this new ball attack. Once again , England are suffering from putting up an inadequate first innings score : rather takes some of the pressure off the Indian openers.

Have to say it is a little surprising that all ten wickets fell to spin after all the talk of this pitch being one for the seamers. Really hasn't been anything for them since that first hour. I do think there is a fair bit there for the spinners : but don't quite see Hartley and Bashir emulating Kuldeep and Ashwin

KP_fan wrote:Paddikal pulls out a good catch.....outfield catching good, only a couple of half C&B dropped

Hi KP_f - I think India's outfield catching has generally been of a high standard this series. It's something of a historical cliche to say that fast bowlers don't field but Bumrah and Siraj have taken good catches and shown that's no longer always the case.

Imagine most of the England fans have tuned out

Holding out in hopes of some late wickets tonight ; but have to admit both bats looking pretty secure so far. Looks like they've persuaded the umpires to allow a ball change , at least : not confident this will produce miracles - but worth a try , I suppose...

KP_fan wrote:Foakes playing uncharacteristically positive fashion, stung by criticism last game , but doesn't covert.

This ain't no rank turner, or any turner at all....450 par first inning pitch IMO

Liking the comment about Foakes.

Not so sure about the lack of any turn.

KP_fan wrote:a.o 219....Kuldeep the star who bamboozled them all, Ashwin gets 4 cheap wickets

Cheap they may have been but to his credit, Ashwin turned up for his 100th Test and did a job.

Bairstow, in contrast, seemed more interested in the adulation of friends and family as he played another worthless cameo and wasted a review in doing so. Nine innings for him now this series and still to reach 40.

I did fear before this Test started that England's primary motivation was Jonny's 100th and Jimmy's 700th rather than the match result. Hopefully, I can still be proved wrong. However, and Carlos would be disappointed if I didn't point this out, you don't win a Test in the first 57.4 overs but you can lose it ....

Didn't think Rohit had hit that...even Jimmy wasn't convinced. Time for spin now : will be interesting to see what Hartley can produce here . I'm a bit more bullish about him than some : still a bit raw ; has been expensive at times - but that seven wicket effort on debut hinted at some possibilities. If he gets a go as the spinner in the English summer - which he might , given his batting ability - I'd be interested to see how he develops in a less spin heavy environment.

Not the best start for Bashir today with a trio of sixes from Jaiswal !

Maybe shouldn't have changed that ball

Think that is a little unfair to Bairstow , guildford. Obviously getting out for another frustrating 29 is unsatisfactory : but that's hardly evidence that he wasn't trying to do what the team needed , is it ? Counter-attacking is what was arguably needed , with the score going nowhere after lunch ; and it worked rather well until he edged Kuldeep. No denying his series has been very disappointing ; but I think suggestions that he was only interested in the "occasion" is a bit of an unwarranted assumption !

Olly - you want to take the lead on that wasted review called for by Foakes?

*awaits Guildford Foakes/DRS comment to agree with*

This is just depressing.

India are just in a completely different league in their own conditions. England will be hoping for an innings defeat just to get out the gap.

Indian openers enjoying themselves ...the young spinners have done better than expected on this trip ; but they are nowhere near the standards of the home team's counterparts. And it is showing now.
Though to be fair , the batting failures have rather set them up for a bashing today.

Afraid you might be right , eirebilly : this seems to be heading the way of a few last match shockers we have seen before on tours of India and Australia...

I might be glad not to be on air the next few days

I wont go as far as saying that England have regressed under Stokes/McCollum but England's ability to adjust to 'match situations' certainly have.

I now everyone rates Stokes, myself included but is he really worth his place in the side whilst not contributing with the ball? People slate Bairstow for being average with the bat but he has as many match winning knocks as Stokes has for me and their performances with the bat are very similar (take into account both have had dual roles in the past).

Jaiswal has certainly had one of the best starts to a career I can remember. 1000 runs in nine games ? Quite a find for India !

What price another big hundred this week ?

Tame end for Jaiswal

Not sure failure to adjust to the situation has much to do with today , to be honest. Just reckon they've been blown away (even that opening stand owed a lot to good fortune) : suspect the constant pressure over several weeks has worn them down and we're seeing the results today.
But certainly they missed crucial moments in the last three games : something you just can't do when you're tackling a superior opponent in their own conditions.

Ah at last...Jaiswal overdoes it and gone for an aggressive 57 at run a ball... Bashir gets some revenge.

104/1. Probably won't lose the next seven for 90 though

alfie wrote:Jaiswal has certainly had one of the best starts to a career I can remember.  1000 runs in nine games ?  Quite a find for India !

What price another big hundred this week ?

Decent curse, trebs would be proud

KP_fan wrote:Tame end for Jaiswal

Got carried away. Was just thinking how well on top of the bowing he looked.

alfie wrote:Think that is a little unfair to Bairstow , guildford. Obviously getting out for another frustrating 29 is unsatisfactory : but that's hardly evidence that he wasn't trying to do what the team needed , is it ? Counter-attacking is what was arguably needed , with the score going nowhere after lunch ; and it worked rather well until he edged Kuldeep. No denying his series has been very disappointing  ; but I think suggestions that he was only interested in the "occasion" is a bit of an unwarranted assumption !

Maybe a bit harsh but, to borrow and adapt a comment from KP_f, the only one missing from Jonny's wellwishers today seemed to be the family dog!

I far prefer the modesty and understated approach of Ashwin - at the end of England's innings, declining the ball for his fourfer on his 100th appearance and instead insisting it be handed to Kuldeep for his fivefer.

I agree with your earlier post that batting was difficult in the first session and we had some good fortune then to reach 100/1 on the brink of lunch. All the more reason then for the likes of Pope and Bairstow to apply themselves and cash in. Pope's dismissal was clueless and dreadful. Admittedly, Bairstow's wasn't so bad but once more he got a start and then got the balance between defence and aggression wrong as he failed to convert. I don't think I wrote Bairstow was only interested in the ''occasion'' but I do suspect he allowed the ''occasion'' to get to him. Even if not, the warranted bottom line is that he's not been good enough this series. I said at the end of T3 that I would have dropped him then. The decision did seem to have already been made that he was always going to play his 100th Test this series which I didn't like as it elevated the player above the team.

Ha...thanks for the credit , eirebilly . Wasn't actually a deliberate jinx , believe it or not ! We do need Trebell here : I'm an amateur by comparison

Yes I get what you mean , guildford. I didn't watch the pre-game hoopla ; but I'd imagine England probably welcomed a milestone or two as a means to add a bit of spirit to a game that could seem a bit of an anti-climax ? Who knows...

Whether the milestone business made any difference to Jonny's approach I rather doubt . Taking on the spinners to try and put them back on their heels is the way he has tried to play rather regularly - with much less success this series , of course.

As to selection : they've been pretty consistent these last couple of years. They don't chop and change. I don't really think that has changed on this tour ; whether it should have is debateable , I guess . But I don't subscribe to this Stokes/Root's mates theory that gets tossed around on BBC comments garbage site...

Anyway we are coming to the end of a very bad day for England - nearly the worst of the series , given the conditions ? And this does look increasingly like an innings defeat unless things happen dramatically tomorrow (they have had some good second days so one can hope , perhaps) . But I'm off away tomorrow so will leave it to you lot to try and engineer an amazing comeback...

Think I will just congratulate KP_fan and Msp in advance

eirebilly_01 wrote:I wont go as far as saying that England have regressed under Stokes/McCollum but England's ability to adjust to 'match situations' certainly have.

I now everyone rates Stokes, myself included but is he really worth his place in the side whilst not contributing with the ball? People slate Bairstow for being average with the bat but he has as many match winning knocks as Stokes has for me and their performances with the bat are very similar (take into account both have had dual roles in the past).

Hi Billy - always hard to properly judge from this distance but I sure understand where you're coming from.

I feel Stokes' belief in and encouragement of the players - especially, the spinners (including Leach when fit) - has been of great benefit overall. If you'll forgive the management speak, an excellent motivator.

However, too often in this series (I'll comment more when this Test is completed), we've lacked game awareness and have handed over the initiative to India. Not all Stokes' fault but still largely so.

Just to add - if you did bin Stokes, the current vice-captain is Pope who has scored a measly 100 runs from 8 of his 9 innings this tour and showed the most awful lack of game awareness on the stroke of lunch today! He, Bairstow and Foakes seem to be doing their level best to be left out when Brook (hopefully) returns in the summer.

Is it really Stokes' fault if other batsmen lose their marbles though ? He has mostly got out playing rather passively and copping a good ball - including a couple of unplayables : has been others - even the most consistent of them in Crawley - who have tended to get out rather carelessly , no ?

I do think he missed a trick or two in the field ; notably the last game where he probably underused Anderson at crucial times. But that's just my opinion and no way of knowing whether it made any difference.

No way he will be "binned " . And hopefully back bowling in the summer. If he isn't , I think they have a problem !

guildfordbat wrote:
Maybe a bit harsh but, to borrow and adapt a comment from KP_f, the only one missing from Jonny's wellwishers today seemed to be the family dog!

KP_fan wrote:
Home, dog, garden blossoming with spring & family on Eng's minds......fight over, series over....and an inning defeat it might be.

Yes, I thought that was a great line. However, the 'garden blossoming with spring' is probably stretching things a bit too far!

Guildford, I felt a slight unease earlier today (before play had started during the Preview) when:

1. A large proportion of England fans were wearing those (funny for some)    local hats. The Gods surely must have cursed them there and then.. when looking down from the mountains.

2. Nick Knight was going on about how 'Crawley... needs to convert a hundred into a double...' He hadn't even walked onto the field yet!

3. Graeme Swan said (when it was mentioned the temp. was barely 6 degrees and you could see the fans huddled together in their puffer jackets)
'Oh we love these conditions! This is ideal for England!' It was meant in jest of course... but then again maybe he thought it was kinda true too.

As alfie said from the start; early in the first session it looked very difficult indeed to get off the mark. Obviously still defrosting...  

Then some runs came albeit with some scratchy shots... a few were well timed. Pope's dismissal was a shocker. Complete pants down on the world stage scenario.

Then I switched over to watch some news and came back to see the wickets tumble. It was a very odd showing but lucky it wasn't 'back to front'.

Should also add that if it was Australia in the same scenario (ignoring the world cup match form there) then I could see something similar happening. Little consolation I know but that's what I thought: lucky it's them and not us (again).

On a final note - I couldn't help but feel a mixture of awe (looking at the spectacular backdrop of the Himalayas) and blatant cruelty on the part of the BCCI for scheduling the match there. They must have been chuckling to themselves thinking if they had the advantage in the series at this point (last test) then what a perfect place to sink the claws in a little deeper.

England should look at preparing a Test venue in Snowdonia or the Orkney Islands next time India tour.  

I am in no way suggesting Stokes should be binned and I do agree with Guildford that he is a motivational leader. I do just wonder if he would get into this side on merit of performances alone. If people can have big digs at Bairstow, some saying he is the worst player ever to reach 100 test matches, then they should also look at Stokes. Their records are not that dissimilar.

The performance this series, the capitulations, are down to the individuals but as a captain Stokes shoulders the blame for me. Its great when his approach works but absolutely shocking when it doesn't. There is no consistency in performances and zero adjustment to in game situations. The only time on this tour when an in game adjustment was made was by Root and it turned England into a dominant position only to be thrown away by a careless approach.

I love the direction England are going in but would just like to see adjustments made when thing are going slightly pete tong.

Just absolutely atrocious stuff from England today. I know the Bazball cult will be hiding behind excuses for this one - just a dead rubber, it doesn't matter etc. though of course if England won they'd be lauding it as one of the great wins and further evidence as to why Stokes is the greatest captain who ever lived - but there are no excuses.

England are certainly no better off than three years ago. The question now isn't if they're actually better than 2021 - the question is: have England actually regressed since 2021? Because on this evidence it's looking increasingly likely.

Let's see about today.

Extraordinary amount of luck for Crawley and Duckett early on. Bumrah and Siraj beat the bat countless times, fair few leading edges falling short, but they did get through it. They did their job as openers. Frustratingly, Duckett threw it away after a good start, which is what he often does. Crawley was fortunate to get to 79, but he played some nice shots amongst it all.

The middle order was a car crash. Pope, again, batting like a tailender. Which he has done for 8 of 9 innings this series. The other one he somehow crafted out possibly the greatest ever overseas knock by an Englishman, which looks increasingly bizarre.

Bairstow played one-day crap in the test arena and got found out. The worst player, by some margin, to have reached 100 tests in test history. A big deadweight on the England test team for the majority of his career, bar 2016 and 2022. Hopefully this is his last test. But he's one of the Bazball lads, his face fits, so unless he retires he'll still be in the team for the summer.

Root and Stokes were outclassed by good bowling. Root still isn't in great nick and Stokes looked utterly frazzled. Foakes left again to bat with the tail, which he can't really do, and the tail didn't provide much resistance anyway.

There was a profound lack of fight by the most arrogant team in cricket, and that marks it as a humiliation.

Kuldeep was stupendous, he's been the most impressive spinner for India this series for my money. He might be leading the attack in the near future, should Ashwin retire. Bumrah bowled the best 0/51 you'll ever see.

And then India piled on the humiliation by scoring at a quick rate, quicker than England, to all but end the test after one day. Jaiswal will be kicking himself at missing out on a golden opportunity to level up with Bradman and get three double tons in the series. Bashir and Hartley showed their extreme limitations when the pitch isn't a bunsen, unfortunately.

England are in a big mess, and I don't just mean this test. They've got just over a year, and about 12/13 tests to sort out an XI that can take India down at home in the summer of 2025, and at least provide a challenge to Australia in 25/26. And, currently, they're very far from such an XI.

I read a laughable article in The Telegraph recently about how England don't need major surgery as they build towards the next Ashes. But they do. By the time of The Ashes, we have no clue of who will be leading that bowling attack, who the main spinner will be, who the keeper will be, whether Pope will last as a number three, whether Duckett/Crawley are going to last the course as half decent openers, and whether Stokes' body will ensure he can still lead by that time. Over half this side are over 30!

Huge problems ahead. And I'm not sure England will address this because they probably believe half the nonsense they spout to the press.

alfie wrote:Is it really Stokes' fault if other batsmen lose their marbles though ?  He has mostly got out playing rather passively and copping a good ball - including a couple of unplayables : has been others - even the most consistent of them in Crawley - who have tended to get out rather carelessly , no ?

I do think he missed a trick or two in the field ; notably the last game where he probably underused Anderson at crucial times. But that's just my opinion and no way of knowing whether it made any difference.

No way he will be "binned " . And hopefully back bowling in the summer. If he isn't , I think they have a problem !

Totally agree that Stokes won't be binned, Alfie. (I'm sure some on the BBC's HYS will be pushing for it though! ) That's why I didn't include him when mentioning the several who could make way for Brook. I do feel it's fair to say though that not all has been perfect under Stokes' captaincy despite the positives.

Where I do believe Stokes was particularly at fault in this series was the day that Ashwin was missing and the England batters still imploded. The instruction should have been go carefully in two sessions and then go to town in the third session as India's remaining bowlers tire. The message was never given and/or received as the batters lost their marbles which was, at least in part, down to the captain.

I do have a concern though as to the captaincy position should circumstances (whatever they may be) rule Stokes out in the summer. Vice-captain Pope's lack of batting form (bar one innings) and composure is a worry and has to put his place in the side in some doubt. Unless a return to Root, hard to see who would step up.

guildfordbat wrote:

alfie wrote:Is it really Stokes' fault if other batsmen lose their marbles though ?  He has mostly got out playing rather passively and copping a good ball - including a couple of unplayables : has been others - even the most consistent of them in Crawley - who have tended to get out rather carelessly , no ?

I do think he missed a trick or two in the field ; notably the last game where he probably underused Anderson at crucial times. But that's just my opinion and no way of knowing whether it made any difference.

No way he will be "binned " . And hopefully back bowling in the summer. If he isn't , I think they have a problem !

Totally agree that Stokes won't be binned, Alfie. (I'm sure some on the BBC's HYS will be pushing for it though! ) That's why I didn't include him when mentioning the several who could make way for Brook. I do feel it's fair to say though that not all has been perfect under Stokes' captaincy despite the positives.

Where I do believe Stokes was particularly at fault in this series was the day that Ashwin was missing and the England batters still imploded. The instruction should have been go carefully in two sessions and then go to town in the third session as India's remaining bowlers tire. The message was never given and/or received as the batters lost their marbles which was, at least in part, down to the captain.

I do have a concern though as to the captaincy position should circumstances (whatever they may be) rule Stokes out in the summer. Vice-captain Pope's lack of batting form (bar one innings) and composure is a worry and has to put his place in the side in some doubt. Unless a return to Root, hard to see who would step up.

I think I'd calm down on the Pope place in the side in doubt element personally - obviously had a poorer return than would have hoped after that knock, but before today since his move to batting 3 in the order his figures were 1348 runs across 32 knocks at an average of 43.48, with four centuries and five fifties. Been a very good shift up the order overall to date I would say.
Lets not get into talks about throwing the baby out with the bath water!

[quote="Duty281
I read a laughable article in The Telegraph recently about how England don't need major surgery as they build towards the next Ashes. But they do. By the time of The Ashes, we have no clue of who will be leading that bowling attack, who the main spinner will be, who the keeper will be, whether Pope will last as a number three, whether Duckett/Crawley are going to last the course as half decent openers, and whether Stokes' body will ensure he can still lead by that time. Over half this side are over 30!

Huge problems ahead. And I'm not sure England will address this because they probably believe half the nonsense they spout to the press.[/quote]

I don't really see the batting issues - Crawley/Duckett/Pope have been in the XI for 2 years straight now, and Duckett/Pope in particular have very stand up records and Crawley has just come off back to back very impressive series against the two best bowling attacks in the world. I don't really see why there would be huge question marks over them taking that forward either...
In fact I'd say the top 5, barring unforeseen disaster, is fairly set with Crawley, Duckett, Pope, Root, Brook.

Do think it's valid to question Stokes's fitness always - he's had a very poor series with the bat here (his record in subcontinental conditions is poor, only one century of his 13 in tests has come in India/Sri Lanka/Pakistan/UAE, and even that came in a game in 2016 which featured six hundreds, and 500 playing 500 in a drawn game). I see he did make himself unavailable for the IPL in 2024, presumably he is back into ODI retirement too...so hoping he is going to start managing some rest between test series for the remainder of his time. Would be great if he could get himself to a point where he can offer 5-10 overs a day with the ball.

Keeper question, for me, is the biggest one facing the side currently. As discussed before, I think this summer presents a great opportunity for England to pick and blood one of the young talented crop with a view to getting a fair few tests under their belt before the 2025 schedule. I have heard fairly reliably that Bairstow was the man to miss out if Brook was available for this series, and that England aren't 100% happy with his fitness since the leg injury...so I sense he might be on the outside looking in after this game.
My view on Foakes is well stated at this point - average has now dipped below 30, he hasn't improved since his debut 6 years ago in my opinion with the bat, and while obviously a good keeper, I don't think we're in a spot to carry him in the batting lineup.

I am slightly less down on the bowling attack question than you, but it is a valid one. I suspect Jimmy will be aiming for one final tour Down Under, or at worst the 2025 summer home series (and who would bet against the great man!), but we really could use Robinson shaping up and "getting it" as unlikely as that is appearing by the week at this point. Hoping to see more of Potts this summer, as fancy he could go well Down Under, and by all accounts has worked hard and taken a step forward this winter.