England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

Sleightholme says all the Saints players tried to bulk-up in the off-season. He went from 90kg to 98kg but then found he'd lost his agility. He's spent most of the season getting to a better weight, which is now 92kg.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/12/ollie-sleightholme-wing-northampton-england-weight-stone/

Ted Hill told the Maul Over podcast he did speak with Steve Borthwick before the squad was announced.

Hill says he probably missed out on selection because Borthwick wanted to keep some continuity in his squad. Hill's hamstring tear in October meant he couldn't be part of any England training camps, and only restarted his season in March. It sounds like Borthwick gave him some encouraging words, and he'll have a better chance of featuring next season if he maintains his form, and gets a good run of games.

Rugby Fan wrote:Ted Hill told the Maul Over podcast he did speak with Steve Borthwick before the squad was announced.

Hill says he probably missed out on selection because Borthwick wanted to keep some continuity in his squad. Hill's hamstring tear in October meant he couldn't be part of any England training camps, and only restarted his season in March. It sounds like Borthwick gave him some encouraging words, and he'll have a better chance of featuring next season if he maintains his form, and gets a good run of games.

I actually like to hear that and think its good management. Roots is the player really that Hill would replace, and whilst i would make the change, i understand why Roots is being given more time. He does that 6 role very well for Exeter.
It encourages Hill to be consistent, and also is fair on Roots to put some good performances in.

I do think Roots needs a few big performances on this tour mind...

Yeah agreed, good management. Hill knows where he stands and what he needs to do.

4 game ban for Obano (can be reduced to 3 if he completes a coaching intervention course).

I think Borthwick will look at Baxter as his go to LH replacement for Marler.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/clkkj9n3m13o

Slightly off topic but not worth a separate thread.

Handre Pollard is this week's podcast guest with Ben Youngs and Dan Cole. They discuss the 2023 World Cup semi-final.

Some pundits have wondered whether England would have been better playing Cole and Marler for 80 minutes, as they had already painted a good picture to the referee.

Cole says he actually lost the last scrum before being substituted. It wasn't a penalty but his body was already starting to run on empty. He says there was no opprtunity to conserve energy, so he doubts he would have been particularly effective.

Youngs says they have talked about what they could have done differently, and no-one thinks keeping Marler and Cole on would have closed the game out. Instead, they think they should have stopped kicking to compete, as soon as they realized how much pressure the scrum was under. Specifically, they are thinking about Freddie Steward putting the ball in the air, rather than kicking long.

Pollard says South Africa expected England to stick with the tactics, so they tried to close Steward down as fast as possible to take some distance off his return. He says the Boks didn't expect to win the ball in the air but knew that the odds were at least even. A knock-on from either side was a good outcome for them, if it led to a scrum. Which is what happened.

Youngs and Cole also referred back to 2019. After the semi-final, the England players tried to treat the week before the final as if it was just another game. They now think that was a mistake. Although they lost the 2023 semi-final, they had tried to discuss the enormity of the occasion, which both men think was a better approach.

I've tried to make that point on a few occasions so it makes me happy to be backed up by Coley himself!

I actually thought England were creaking for 3 scrums before the first penalty. The first two of those scrums were before Ox even came on. This is the timeline I posted before.

43 min - England get the 5m lineout that George throws not straight. SA scrum. Cole looks under a bit pressure from Kitshoff for the first time (his feet were set way behind him which is usually an indication that Coley knows he needs to hang on), both sides go down. No pen. SA clear to their 22m. England lineout.

45 minutes - SA scrum soon after George's comedy throw that went sideways. Starting front rows still on. Cole under pressure again from Kitshoff. SA just start going forward, I was worried that Kitshoff was going to split Coley from George, but ref calls use it.

48 mins - Ox comes on for Kitshoff

51 mins - First scrum after Ox comes on, England get absolutely mulched with no pen as the ball sprays out from the base. Cole is immediately struggling with Ox, Marler gets absolutely pumped by Malherbe at this scrum. Only thing that saves a pen is poor control by the Boks no 8.

52 mins - Genge come on for next stoppage which is a 22m drop out

53 mins - Farrell drop goal from a set play from that 22m drop out

56 mins - Sinckler and Koch both come on

57 mins - England have a 5m scrum after Kolbe fumbles near his line. Re-set with England under pressure. SA pen on Ox's side.

From there SA are well on top in the scrum. England's error count mounts though, which gives them more scrums that they should have. It felt a similar story to 2019. If you give the current SA team scrums, they win penalties. Their tight five depth is freakish. Ox is the most destructive LH scrummager in the game and Malherbe the best TH scrummager. The key is preventing them scrum feeds as much as possible.

The big moment still feels like the not straight lineout throws. England were 12-6 up at the start of the second half, had all the momentum. George uncharacteristically messed up successive throws in prime attacking positions. One on the 5m line. The other on the SA 22m line. They still managed to get the next score through that excellently manufactured and executed drop goal by Farrell.

Getting within 1 point of the back to back RWC Champions was a brilliant performance from where they'd come. It still stings when it feels like it could've been even better though. Particularly when it was the same opponents in 2019 and 2023.

No prop is going to be able to go for 80 mins against the Boks. They've got two or three sets of top quality front rows. Even if you can hold the starters then you'll be tired by the time their equally brilliant replacements come on.

It's a challenge for Borthwick over the next few years. Bring through depth for England in the tight five. We've had a good starting set and maybe two or three on the bench but we need at least two solid sets.

formerly known as Sam wrote:No prop is going to be able to go for 80 mins against the Boks. They've got two or three sets of top quality front rows. Even if you can hold the starters then you'll be tired by the time their equally brilliant replacements come on.

It's a challenge for Borthwick over the next few years. Bring through depth for England in the tight five. We've had a good starting set and maybe two or three on the bench but we need at least two solid sets.

Not so easy for Borthwick:
First EQ parents need to breed some potential props.    
Then the schools and/or clubs need to build in and then embellish the skills.  
The the pro clubs need to take their skills to the next level.
Then it's Borthwick's turn.  
Maybe we can talk to Putin for some undoubtedly legit methods to develop our athletes.  Just make sure they never pee into a cup....

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:No prop is going to be able to go for 80 mins against the Boks. They've got two or three sets of top quality front rows. Even if you can hold the starters then you'll be tired by the time their equally brilliant replacements come on.

It's a challenge for Borthwick over the next few years. Bring through depth for England in the tight five. We've had a good starting set and maybe two or three on the bench but we need at least two solid sets.

Not so easy for Borthwick:
First EQ parents need to breed some potential props.    
Then the schools and/or clubs need to build in and then embellish the skills.  
The the pro clubs need to take their skills to the next level.  
Then it's Borthwick's turn.  
Maybe we can talk to Putin for some undoubtedly legit methods to develop our athletes.  Just make sure they never pee into a cup....

Well we've got the RFU running their tight five training camps to try and move on the potential coming through. There's plenty of big lads around the key is getting them into rugby early enough to mold into potential internationals.

We've got some absolute units coming through with Fasogbon, Chessum Jnr, AOF, Blake etc. Borthwick needs to make the most of those guys as they emerge alongside those he's already developing in the squad.

Lots of units coming through but they don't have to be either...

Young Fin Baxter just looks a proper hard lad...Poorfour can probably give more info. Underhill 6'1 ...is just a physical beast. Chandler Cunningham-South looks uncompromising...

Look at Ethan Roots who i dont maybe give credit to.....but the lad is a Brazilian jujitsu black belt and instructor...he's a tough unit!

We have the tough lads...but the critical part finally I actually have faith we have a manager and coaching team that will get it right.

Baxter is 6ft1 and north of 18 stone at 21. He could a few kgs over the next couple of years as he finishes physically developing. He'd then be similar in size to Genge and Marler. You don't necessarily want your loosehead to be tall.

You want enough size so that they can stand up to the sheer mass that some of the other nations can throw around. The Boks being the obvious example when they are rolling out second rows with a combined weight of close to 40 stone to shove those quality props forward. The ABs this summer will be rolling out props who are all over 20 stone, just massive units.

You don't have to completely fight fire with fire and go with size across the tight five but we've already seen the advantage of having George Martin in the second row adding power. International rugby is an arms race. England need tight five reinforcements particularly at prop but they do appear to be coming.

Well we have some huge locks coming through Sam..have yo hope a couple of them really push on to the required level.

There's also (as we've already discussed) some big props coming through who should be hitting the 19 stone + mark once they've developed...some maybe 20 or more...

I'd rather have an 18 stoner who can scrummage a rhino than a 20 stoner who folds at the least pressure.

Geordie wrote:

I'd rather have an 18 stoner who can scrummage a rhino than a 20 stoner who folds at the least pressure.

Me to but if you can develop a 20+ stone monster to do the job at scrum time then the carrying ability in the loose can be a notable advantage. The more carriers in the pack the more flexible the attack can be and the harder to defend we become.

Size is not everything, look at Ehren Painter, 20 stone plus who seems to think he is playing in the 70's, where a props job was to hold up one side of the scrum and that was it. He can't even do that very well these days.

Incidentally, both the touted loose heads in Saints squad, Iyogun and Haffar are stated as being under 18 stone but it doesn't seem to effect them that much, straight out of the Mighty Mouse book of propping it seems.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Incidentally, both the touted loose heads in Saints squad, Iyogun and Haffar are stated as being under 18 stone but it doesn't seem to effect them that much, straight out of the Mighty Mouse book of propping it seems.

All Rugby has Haffar at over 18 stone and Iyogen at nearly 19 stone.

As you say above size is not guarantee and Painter is a prime example of that. Part of that could be that he hasn't settled on the right weight for him to operate at. He said when he joined Chiefs that he struggled to stay as light as Saints wanted him and it hurt his scrummaging. He put on the weight to be destructive at Chiefs and had a great start to the season but it soon tailed off. Probably carrying too much weight to remain impactful over the course of a long season.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Incidentally, both the touted loose heads in Saints squad, Iyogun and Haffar are stated as being under 18 stone but it doesn't seem to effect them that much, straight out of the Mighty Mouse book of propping it seems.

All Rugby has Haffar at over 18 stone and Iyogen at nearly 19 stone.

As you say above size is not guarantee and Painter is a prime example of that. Part of that could be that he hasn't settled on the right weight for him to operate at. He said when he joined Chiefs that he struggled to stay as light as Saints wanted him and it hurt his scrummaging. He put on the weight to be destructive at Chiefs and had a great start to the season but it soon tailed off. Probably carrying too much weight to remain impactful over the course of a long season.

That was why I said "stated", probably when they were a lot younger. but still a bit light for a 23/24 year old in todays game when you see the monsters climbing the ladder a couple of years younger and already that weight.

Well the two current U20 tightheads will be prime ones to watch...Billy Sella 6'3 and around 18.5 stone and Fasogabon 6'4 and 20 stone plus already. Not seen much from Fasogabon yet to say he'll be anything but Sella has shown quite alot.

And young Fordjour....5'11 abd 18 stone.

As to lock....there's a load of 6'9 and 6'10 kids coming through. Ben Bamber also getitng a lot of gametime for Sale ...Sanderson must rate him.

Geordie wrote:Well the two current U20 tightheads will be prime ones to watch...Billy Sella 6'3 and around 18.5 stone and Fasogabon 6'4 and 20 stone plus already. Not seen much from Fasogabon yet to say he'll be anything but Sella has shown quite alot.

And young Fordjour....5'11 abd 18 stone.

As to lock....there's a load of 6'9 and 6'10 kids coming through. Ben Bamber also getitng a lot of gametime for Sale ...Sanderson must rate him.

I am 6'3: and 18st and suddenly feeling very small

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well the two current U20 tightheads will be prime ones to watch...Billy Sella 6'3 and around 18.5 stone and Fasogabon 6'4 and 20 stone plus already. Not seen much from Fasogabon yet to say he'll be anything but Sella has shown quite alot.

And young Fordjour....5'11 abd 18 stone.

As to lock....there's a load of 6'9 and 6'10 kids coming through. Ben Bamber also getitng a lot of gametime for Sale ...Sanderson must rate him.

I am 6'3: and 18st and suddenly feeling very small

Your a giant to my 6' , 17.5 stone WPI....

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well the two current U20 tightheads will be prime ones to watch...Billy Sella 6'3 and around 18.5 stone and Fasogabon 6'4 and 20 stone plus already. Not seen much from Fasogabon yet to say he'll be anything but Sella has shown quite alot.

And young Fordjour....5'11 abd 18 stone.

As to lock....there's a load of 6'9 and 6'10 kids coming through. Ben Bamber also getitng a lot of gametime for Sale ...Sanderson must rate him.

I am 6'3: and 18st and suddenly feeling very small

Your a giant to my 6' , 17.5 stone WPI....

At a whopping 6ft and 14 stone I'm considerably smaller than the pair of you.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well the two current U20 tightheads will be prime ones to watch...Billy Sella 6'3 and around 18.5 stone and Fasogabon 6'4 and 20 stone plus already. Not seen much from Fasogabon yet to say he'll be anything but Sella has shown quite alot.

And young Fordjour....5'11 abd 18 stone.

As to lock....there's a load of 6'9 and 6'10 kids coming through. Ben Bamber also getitng a lot of gametime for Sale ...Sanderson must rate him.

I am 6'3: and 18st and suddenly feeling very small

Your a giant to my 6' , 17.5 stone WPI....

At a whopping 6ft and 14 stone I'm considerably smaller than the pair of you.

Well, I guess we are just going to keep working down the sizes: I am 5' 11, 13 stone. Just another pretty back, though I draw the line at putting gel in my hair before games.

For me, strength and skill come before size, though it is easier to push a lighter guy than a heavy load of compost.

doctor_grey wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Geordie wrote:

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

Geordie wrote:Well the two current U20 tightheads will be prime ones to watch...Billy Sella 6'3 and around 18.5 stone and Fasogabon 6'4 and 20 stone plus already. Not seen much from Fasogabon yet to say he'll be anything but Sella has shown quite alot.

And young Fordjour....5'11 abd 18 stone.

As to lock....there's a load of 6'9 and 6'10 kids coming through. Ben Bamber also getitng a lot of gametime for Sale ...Sanderson must rate him.

I am 6'3: and 18st and suddenly feeling very small

Your a giant to my 6' , 17.5 stone WPI....

At a whopping 6ft and 14 stone I'm considerably smaller than the pair of you.

Well, I guess we are just going to keep working down the sizes:  I am 5' 11, 13 stone.  Just another pretty back, though I draw the line at putting gel in my hair before games.  

For me, strength and skill come before size, though it is easier to push a lighter guy than a heavy load of compost.  

I was a back to....alas not a pretty one

Current Tokyo forecast for the weekend is cloudy, with rain, and a high of 29 degrees. The stadium has no roof.

There's a real downpour due tomorrow. It's not clear what kind of rain we might get on Saturday. Friday looks wet, so the pitch might be greasy.

So lots of kicking....forcing errors...

Would think Japan prefer it to be dry as they'll want a fast paced non set piece game I would imagine. If it's wet and greasy = knock-ons = scrums which should suit England. However, I want it dry and England to take it to them in the loose not just grind out a win.

Geordie wrote:So lots of kicking....forcing errors...

Yeah, but I hope it's not Japan forcing the errors....

England starting XV for Japan :


15. George Furbank

14. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso

13. Henry Slade – vice-captain

12. Ollie Lawrence

11. Tommy Freeman

10. Marcus Smith

9. Alex Mitchell

1. Bevan Rodd

2. Jamie George – captain

3. Dan Cole

4. Maro Itoje – vice-captain

5. George Martin

6. Chandler Cunningham-South

7. Sam Underhill

8. Ben Earl – vice-captain

Replacements

16. Theo Dan

17. Joe Marler – vice-captain

18. Will Stuart

19, Charlie Ewels

20. Tom Curry

21. Harry Randall

22. Fin Smith

23. Tom Roebuck

Four vice captains, hopefully that's enough....
Good team and I'm pleased to see Randall on bench

That back row!!! Wow!
Actually the back 5 is very balanced and strong.

Full strength side....interesting its Marcus over FIn....is that the final call made from SB on that one then?

Might be different for NZ games? Depends how it goes Saturday but seemingly he's picked his best XV so perhaps he sees Marcus as the starting 10. I reckon 2nd half Fin gets on and Marcus to FB.

I thought Borthwick might manage Itoje's minutes but it looks like he might be up for all three games.

mountain man wrote:Might be different for NZ games? Depends how it goes Saturday but seemingly he's picked his best XV so perhaps he sees Marcus as the starting 10. I reckon 2nd half Fin gets on and Marcus to FB.

There's a sense here of a core team for the series with a few playerrs on trial. The big selection questions would seem to me to be:
- How well does Bevan Rodd go?
- How long before CCS starts to flag?
- Does that back row have the right balance (I think CCS adds the heft that Earl, for all his ability, doesn't have, and I could see that 4 as settling into a long term rotation if they all stay fit)?
- Is Curry back to international level fitness?

Barring injury, I can see the back division staying settled for the series. But who knows?

CCS be fine, he'll last the pace. I'd have preferred him at 8 but hey ho.
Why is Curry even in squad. Not as if Eng don't have strength in backrow.
Rodd? Hmmm, be fine against Japan but NZ?

Backline looks good. I'm hoping 2nd half assuming Eng well in front(here's hoping) Freeman goes to 13, Fin on at 10, Marcus 15, Roebuck on. I rather suspect we well may see something like that.

I am a bit disappointed not to see Fin Baxter.

I suspect several from Prem final are being given more time to recover.

Mr Bounce wrote:I am a bit disappointed not to see Fin Baxter.

We like to pair a prop who's strong at the set piece with a prop that's good in the loose. Baxter is strong at the set piece so he could have come in for Marler but Rodd is far better in the loose so will pair Cole. I'd have liked to see Baxter instead of Marler on the bench but I guess having two looseheads who have a combined age that's only seven years more than your starting tighthead maybe isn't seen as ideal.

What is the English obsession with playing a 13 at 12. I know Lawrence plays well at 12 but he's much better in the 13 channel.

The back 3 are particularly good fun to watch. I think Furbank can make a huge difference to your attack

carpet baboon wrote:What is the English obsession with playing a 13 at 12. I know Lawrence plays well at 12 but he's much better in the 13 channel.

Struggling for 12s. Dingwall lacks physicality both in attack and defence. Kelly's form fell off a cliff following injury and although he played ok towards the end of the season it wasn't enough to push himself into contention. Ojomoh can't reliably get into the Bath side.

We also need a certain level of physicality in there to allow for the fact that Slade is leading the defence from the 13 channel and whilst he's a good one on one tackler he isn't going to be carrying hard.

carpet baboon wrote:What is the English obsession with playing a 13 at 12. I know Lawrence plays well at 12 but he's much better in the 13 channel.

It's more a question of who else if not Lawrence. Lacking in good enough alternatives which has been an issue for England for years. Hence likes of Eddie banked the farm on Manu getting fit and now he's out of the picture it's who is good enough. Lawrence whilst primarily a 13 is a very good 12.

Freddie Steward interview

https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/freddie-steward-i-wouldnt-say-ive-had-it-easy/

formerly known as Sam wrote:Freddie Steward interview

https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/freddie-steward-i-wouldnt-say-ive-had-it-easy/

Now, he'd be an option at 12... [ducks and runs]

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Freddie Steward interview

https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/freddie-steward-i-wouldnt-say-ive-had-it-easy/

Now, he'd be an option at 12... [ducks and runs]

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Freddie Steward interview

https://www.rugbypass.com/plus/freddie-steward-i-wouldnt-say-ive-had-it-easy/

Now, he'd be an option at 12... [ducks and runs]

Stop stealing my material

I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

I really like that 23 for the Japan game.

I had Maro either missing out or on the bench due to his minutes played. That's a decision between the coaches and player though as the notional playing time limits stand. Obviously, if they've decided between them that Maro's fine exceeding it then he walks into the starting XV.

I would've started Baxter over Rodd and benched Spencer over Randall. I just rate those alternatives a bit higher.

I'm sceptical that Randall has the all round game to be an international 9. Maybe he'll prove me wrong though. I was sceptical of Furbank too and he showed plenty of promise in the Six Nations.

They've stuck to paring one set-piece and defensive prop with one who carries more. In the Six Nations they largely used Genge/Cole and Marler/Stuart as pairs like that. Rodd coming straight in for Genge as Cole's partner seems like a continuation of that. Another indication of them trying to prioritise carriers throughout the pack. Some of their attacking structures in the Six Nations were reminiscent of how Ireland run phase play under Farrell. Having 6 or even 7 strong carriers across their pack at any one time is a massive part of that for them.

The second and back row looks potentially fantastic. Especially with Turry to launch off the bench. A lot of carrying and physicality in defence.

Looks good to me. I honestly switched from following rugby back into cricket mode more recently, so had completely forgot the first game was this weekend.

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

It's not hatred it's merely irksome that a nation with all the playing resources that England have, haven't been able to find an actual 12 since??????? Barritt?
And I also did acknowledge that Lawrence is a good 12, but he's a lot better 13

And Steward is clearly a 12 just pretending to be a brilliant full back

carpet baboon wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

It's not hatred it's merely irksome that a nation with all the playing resources that England have,  haven't been able to find an actual 12 since??????? Barritt?
And I also did acknowledge that Lawrence is a good 12, but he's a lot better 13

And Steward is clearly a 12 just pretending to be a brilliant full back

Depends what we mean by find a 12. Stock answer from me here, but, Farrell as a 12 won 3 Six Nations including a Grand Slaw, set a record number of international wins in a row, whitewashed Australia down under, made a RWC final including one of the best England performances I've seen against the ABs and started for the Lions. He was a brilliant inside centre for England. Everyone just sort of ignores it because he also played 10. If someone who started at 12 achieves exactly the same at inside centre then he'd be considered on a similar level to Greenwood.

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

Can't see Tigers going with it at club level though. We've got two senior centres who are both best at 12 and a young gun who looks like he could become a very good 12. At 13 we're pretty short and early in the season we'll need Shillcock to cover 10 so Steward will be required at 15.

He's probably got more chance of playing 10 given our lack of flyhalfs going into next season.