England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

Can't see Tigers going with it at club level though. We've got two senior centres who are both best at 12 and a young gun who looks like he could become a very good 12. At 13 we're pretty short and early in the season we'll need Shillcock to cover 10 so Steward will be required at 15.

He's probably got more chance of playing 10 given our lack of flyhalfs going into next season.

doctor_grey wrote:Phil Vickery already locked in as the starting 10.

I still struggle with the overwhelming criticism of England/RFU/World-effing-Rugby for not being able to negotiate a television deal for the Japan-England match and then doing nothing to correct such an obvious failure on their part.  Of course, there is no need for me to launch into another oratorical tour-de-force about how unfit for duty those organisations really are.  I shouldn't even need to point out streaming does not grow sport - people stream in what they already want to see.  

It will be interesting to see if the English language commentators will be at the stadium or in a tv studio somewhere, with the inevitable lack of any crowd noise or closer to game type experience.  And I will have to be awake to watch the game at 1:30am on Saturday and try to stay awake.  

And, to make the sh!t more binding, as it were, if y'all don't already know, Barbarians-Fiji is live on Sky.  But not England....

carpet baboon wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

Can't see Tigers going with it at club level though. We've got two senior centres who are both best at 12 and a young gun who looks like he could become a very good 12. At 13 we're pretty short and early in the season we'll need Shillcock to cover 10 so Steward will be required at 15.

He's probably got more chance of playing 10 given our lack of flyhalfs going into next season.

Well that's my new campaign started.

STEWARD FOR TEN

mountain man wrote:I believe it's snus, apparently popular with footballers. Yes tobacco pouches. Excellent method for getting cancer of the mouth.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre. :laugh:

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

Can't see Tigers going with it at club level though. We've got two senior centres who are both best at 12 and a young gun who looks like he could become a very good 12. At 13 we're pretty short and early in the season we'll need Shillcock to cover 10 so Steward will be required at 15.

He's probably got more chance of playing 10 given our lack of flyhalfs going into next season.

carpet baboon wrote:As we are discussing players who are clearly not playing in the role they were destined for, I yet again find myself compelled to point out Alex Goode should have been a ten for club and country.
And I will go further and state my belief that if he had been 10 and Farrell had been a 12 all his career, England would have won the 2019 world cup

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

king_carlos wrote:I do love that carpet's defining views are a hatred of England picking outside centres who have also played inside centre at inside centre, and, wanting them to pick a fullback who's never played centre at inside centre.

I like the Steward at 12 idea. I think it makes a lot of sense, reckon his ceiling is higher there than fullback. It'd need to happen at club level first though. That's the route Jordie went through. The Highlanders decided his skills were best utilised at 12, started picking him there. The ABs actually kept using him in the back three for over a year after he was playing 12 in Super Rugby.

Can't see Tigers going with it at club level though. We've got two senior centres who are both best at 12 and a young gun who looks like he could become a very good 12. At 13 we're pretty short and early in the season we'll need Shillcock to cover 10 so Steward will be required at 15.

He's probably got more chance of playing 10 given our lack of flyhalfs going into next season.

Tell you what, Quins will happily take him off your hands and turn him into a top class 12. As I understand it we've got a gap at 12 for the right player and a big bag of cash we didn't expect to have.

England and Kevin Sinfield are exploring extending the former defence coach’s duties beyond the summer tour to Japan and New Zealand, Telegraph Sport can reveal.

Sinfield is scheduled to step down at the end of the tour in July, after stepping back from defensive duties following the addition of Felix Jones, the former Springboks assistant, to the coaching team in January.

Telegraph Sport understands, however, that England head coach Steve Borthwick is keen for Sinfield to stay beyond this summer’s tour, and the 43-year-old is now considering his options. Sinfield is currently mourning the tragic death of his close friend and MND campaigner, Rob Burrow. A source said: “They are hoping to secure an extension. The boys love him.”

Any new role would likely be on a consultancy basis, leaving Sinfield free to explore other opportunities, while devoting a couple of days a week when England are in camp to continue his work as a skills and kicking coach and mentor, particularly for the younger players in the squad.

It is understood that both parties are aligned and keen to agree a deal although it is not yet clear if funding will be available given that Andrew Strawbridge recently joined the England management team as an assistant coach and coaching advisor. The 59-year-old New Zealander spent the first four weeks of the Six Nations working with England as a consultant coach.

RFU spending on the England team has been under greater scrutiny after Eddie Jones, Borthwick’s predecessor and current Japan coach, overspent his budget by £900,000 leading into the 2019 World Cup.

Before this year’s Six Nations, Borthwick revealed that Sinfield would be stepping back from defensive duties to take on a skills and kicking role which would end before the November Tests.

Jones, the Irishman who was an assistant for South Africa’s 2023 World Cup victory, took over defensive responsibilities – employing the renowned blitz defence – with Sinfield due to depart his auxiliary role after the two-Test series against the All Blacks in July.

At the time of the announcement in January, Sinfield – awarded a CBE earlier this year for his remarkable fund-raising feats – suggested his exit was down to “personal reasons that need to remain private for now.”

“It’s the best job I’ve ever had – apart from playing! I’ve really enjoyed working with the player,” he said.

Borthwick added at the time that “Kev made the decision over what he wanted to do” and that “you can’t overstate the value he’s brought, what he’s done and the relationships he’s built”.

Sinfield, who coached the defence of Borthwick’s title-winning Leicester side in 2022 after a glittering playing career in rugby league, admitted in January that he did not know his next professional move but that it would be in coaching.

“Do I still want to coach? Yes,” Sinfield said. “What that looks like, I’m not sure. I’m pretty excited about what’s to come this year with England, and then there is a lot of unknown for me. I’ll make the best of it.”

“[It will be] coaching full-stop. I don’t know where that is or what it looks like, but I’ve really enjoyed coaching and I don’t ever feel like I really left rugby league because of my role with Rugby League Cares – the charitable arm of the sport. What I do know is I want to continue to support and help people.

“When what happened with Rob [Burrow] happened, it was a big shift in my life, and it felt right to use my experience as a player to help me support players and other people. I try to use that in the best way moving forward. I won’t rule out anything at this stage. I think it’s very unlikely I’ll go back into rugby league, but I’ll never say no.”

The Rugby Football Union declined to comment.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

You can keep your hands off. He's staying a Tiger.

With young Kerr coming through at Quins you might have to change the playing style of midfield a little but you've got the future inside centre for Quins already.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

You can keep your hands off. He's staying a Tiger.

With young Kerr coming through at Quins you might have to change the playing style of midfield a little but you've got the future inside centre for Quins already.

Kerr is promising but he's only 19 so it'll be a couple of years before he's ready. We've got a long list of promising centres ahead of him, but it's the England problem in microcosm: none of them are obvious 12s. Joseph and Beard are OC/Wing, Northmore looks like he should have the build for 12 but has not yet put in a performance there that's up to the standard he brings at 13. Anyanwu, Bradley and Hyde have all looked good in occasional appearances but have all spent more time at 13 than 12 and none has nailed down a starting place yet (though that's more a reflection on the quality of Esterhuizen, Northmore, Joseph and Beard than on them).

I don't know why the position is so much of a struggle for England.

mountain man wrote:Seems like Mercer doubling down on his previous comments about being left out of England squad.
Rather like previously, I'm not sure this is going to help his cause for selection.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cx77zv63866o

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:I can't see it happening, but there is one player that has all the attributes to make an excellent 12, big, excellent hands, fast, good offloading game, he has played just about everywhere in the backs at a very good premiership / international standard, except 12.  And who is person?



Tommy Freeman

Rugby Fan wrote:

mountain man wrote:Seems like Mercer doubling down on his previous comments about being left out of England squad.
Rather like previously, I'm not sure this is going to help his cause for selection.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cx77zv63866o

I listened to Mercer speak with Care, and that's not how his comments came across at all. I recommend listening to the interview for context.

mountain man wrote:...unquestionably Mercers previous comments on being left out were quite inflammatory...

Rugby Fan wrote:

mountain man wrote:...unquestionably Mercers previous comments on being left out were quite inflammatory...

They really weren't. I think Mercer is a bit of a victim of rugby's straight-talking northerner issue. We love straight-talking northerners when they are defence coaches. Much less when they are players.

mountain man wrote:Read this then.

Rugby Fan wrote:

mountain man wrote:Read this then.

That's really my point. Rather than read a transcription of what he says, I recommend listening to him. You might think it can't come across any differently - and if you have read it first, and formed an opinion, then maybe it won't - but he comes across as a plain speaker, not someone spitting out resentments.

mountain man wrote:Well facts are he said those quotes about Borthwick not valuing him so no matter what he subsequently says now it's out there.

mountain man wrote:You come over as a bit defensive on this?

mountain man wrote:Fair enough and I wasn't sure hence ?. So the original article where he says Borthwick doesn't value him etc, is that same interview as Care one you mention? Or is Care interview after it?

Geordie wrote:Anyway, regardless it would appear that Mercer is not interesting Mr Borthwick.

Im curious what 8 hes looking at mind. Earl has been an amazing stand in...or is he just a stand in? Has SB decided he likes Earl there our version of Savea? Using a more Exeter style with more muscle size on the flanks where possible?

Aside from Dombrandt he hasnt really looked at many 8s? Maybe hes waiting to see CCS progress at 6, and how his skills and fitness comes along..?

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:Anyway, regardless it would appear that Mercer is not interesting Mr Borthwick.

Im curious what 8 hes looking at mind. Earl has been an amazing stand in...or is he just a stand in? Has SB decided he likes Earl there our version of Savea? Using a more Exeter style with more muscle size on the flanks where possible?

Aside from Dombrandt he hasnt really looked at many 8s? Maybe hes waiting to see CCS progress at 6, and how his skills and fitness comes along..?

I think he would have looked at Barbeary in the squads had it not been for the ban just before the Six Nations, then injury in the final. Earl has been fantastic there and CCS is the best talent in the position though. So I can't really fault the selections made.

Similar with Langdon. Ban just before the Six Nations. Injured in the final. I reckon he may well have been looked at too.

Borthwick has said publicly (re Ted Hill IIRC) that he has favoured continuity for this tour. Which makes sense given the schedule. The Prem semis, final, Japan game, then ABs x 2 all coming in consecutive weeks. The squad for the weekend will have had less time together than they do before the AIs or Six Nations even.

When I was picking speculative squads, I hadn't fully considered that to be honest. I was looking at Japan as more of a potential development fixture than it actually is. If you picked more players there that you wouldn't feature against the ABs then you've not only got combinations not getting game time before landing in NZ, you'd also have guys who weren't in the playoffs having played no rugby for 3 weekends before meeting the ABs in Dunedin.

The England captain Jamie George is desperate for Kevin Sinfield to stay on as an assistant coach beyond this summer as he has become a vital mentor to the squad. Sinfield initially joined Steve Borthwick’s staff as the defence coach in December 2022 but took on the role of skills coach after the World Cup last year.

The 43-year-old announced before the Six Nations that this summer’s tour to Japan and New Zealand would be his last with England, despite having a contract until the 2027 World Cup.
However, it is understood that Borthwick, the head coach, is now reconsidering his decision to move on from Sinfield as he recognises the impact the former rugby league player is having with England.

It has not yet been decided whether Sinfield will indeed stay. He and the RFU need to work out the finer details of his role, job title, whether they would like him to remain as a full-time coach or a part-time consultant figure and — crucially — what that would cost. As his role is difficult to define, the RFU would need to work out how that is reflected in his salary.

Sinfield has a wide remit with England now, and is particularly good at mentoring the younger players and those that do not make Borthwick’s match-day squads. “He’s almost become the head coach of the non-23 guys who are running against us,” George said.

“I’ve never really seen a role like that before but he’s really taken that on and takes pride in working with those guys. It can be very difficult on a tour like this, when you’re not selected when you hope to be selected. They have a conversation with Steve, but Kev is the person who puts the arm around the shoulder. The amount of times I’ve seen him having a coffee with a lot of the non-23 guys — his caffeine intake is significant!

“He is such an incredible coach. What a wealth of knowledge he has on both sides of the ball. I don’t think I’ve worked with someone like that. He probably reminds me of [the Ireland head coach] Andy Farrell in that respect, in that he’s got such an amazing understanding of our defence, obviously having been our defence coach, and then also the attacking side of the game. That’s what made him such a good defence coach, as the attack worked so well.

“That transition to being a skills coach, working with the kickers as well, has been seamless. He gives little snippets and insights for me as captain. His leadership credentials speak for themselves. The little things that he’s said to me this week and throughout the Six Nations have been absolutely invaluable.

“I couldn’t be keener for him to stay. The role he’s playing is absolutely invaluable and he’s an incredible man. You don’t need me to tell you that. In terms of the role he’s playing in this team, it’s been amazing to see and I think that’s a huge part of us being able to kick on.”

Sinfield is on this tour still grieving after the death of his great friend and former team-mate Rob Burrow this month. The rugby league legend died of motor neurone disease (MND) aged 41 on June 2. Sinfield has raised millions for MND charities via undertaking running feats.

Richard Wigglesworth, the England attack coach, is also hoping that Sinfield remains with England.

“I’ve loved working with Kev, both as a professional and as a friend,” Wigglesworth said. “Kev has made his decision [to leave]. If that changes I will be delighted, as I love working with him as a coach.

“He wants to help people. As a coach he helps us immensely, in his role in the skills side and all his individual stuff, but then how good he is at helping me and Felix [Jones, the defence coach] and anyone who is lead coaching that time, [with] how he is in meetings.

“Off the field he’s a good friend of mine. We have good fun so it would be great if he was around but I just want Kev to be happy in everything he is doing.”

mountain man wrote:What is everyone expecting tomorrow then? A win I imagine is what most want although Mr Jones would like nothing better than to pull one over his ex employer especially as he was sacked.
Hopefully England rugby be a bit more cohesive than England football team, that would be a start. A loss not be good but if they win I think manner of it be important seeing as facing NZ next. A scrappy set piece dominated win probably not what we want.
I'm hoping if things go well first half changes are made both personnal wise and positionally. Freeman into centre being foremost of this.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Kev has always come across as a great leader, some questions over whether he was more than just a good coach.

Sounds like he's proving invaluable as Steve's right hand man. Be good if he can be kept on in some form or another though maybe not for Quins who were apparently keen for him to join as their defence coach.

Poorfour wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Kev has always come across as a great leader, some questions over whether he was more than just a good coach.

Sounds like he's proving invaluable as Steve's right hand man. Be good if he can be kept on in some form or another though maybe not for Quins who were apparently keen for him to join as their defence coach.

Quins have got Jason Gilmore now. Don't know much about him but he has coached Australia A and the Barbarians. Super Kev would have been good, but reading between the lines it sounds like he doesn't want a full time coaching role at the moment, and he is apparently doing an excellent job as "coach of the non-selected" on tour.

Geordie wrote:
I agree KC I've said a few times I didn't think the team v  Japan would be a "development side" ...purely because they're playing NZ next.  

What I like aswell as the obvious about CCS at 8 is his added lineout ability.  How long since we hadan 8 who was a proper lineout option!
And bringing Ted Hill in to the squad would add yet more physicality,  mobility and lineout. The potential combinations are exciting...

I do think Langdon missing out is a big blow. He's a proper dynamic player..with George due to be phased out Dan and Langdon give two exciting options at hooker. So I'd have loved to see Langdon in the side at some stage this tour.

king_carlos wrote:

Geordie wrote:
I agree KC I've said a few times I didn't think the team v  Japan would be a "development side" ...purely because they're playing NZ next.  

What I like aswell as the obvious about CCS at 8 is his added lineout ability.  How long since we hadan 8 who was a proper lineout option!
And bringing Ted Hill in to the squad would add yet more physicality,  mobility and lineout. The potential combinations are exciting...

I do think Langdon missing out is a big blow. He's a proper dynamic player..with George due to be phased out Dan and Langdon give two exciting options at hooker. So I'd have loved to see Langdon in the side at some stage this tour.

I rate CCS incredibly highly but wouldn't say his lineout work will be that much of a strength at the top level. He's in that same bracket as Turry or Dombrandt where you can throw him up on your own ball if he's unopposed. He doesn't have a threat on opposition ball though. Those are the back row jumpers who actually make a difference. Especially on defensive lineouts.

Lawes, PSdT, Ollivon, POM, Bergadze. In the past the likes of Keiran Read, Parisse or Croft. Players like that allow you to man mark all the opposition jumpers. Usually in the middle of full lineouts. Forcing teams to throw to the front - which massively limits attacking options - or right to the tail - high risk. If you can execute that effectively, then teams usually start cutting numbers. Which increases retention but limits the platform that ball provides.

CCS will add another player you can throw to on your own ball but shouldn't have any impact defensively (in the air at least, with his strength he could be a beast in maul defence with more experience!) unless the oppositions lineout has really gone to s**t. Those option on your own ball are useful, but not actually a third lineout option in the way that Lawes recently talked about on the Cole and Youngs pod.

With the likes of Etzebeth, Snyman and Lood in the row, the Boks could 100% have a strong lineout on their own ball without a gun jumper in the back row. When PSdT is injured, they've generally gone with Mostert at blindside though, despite their strength at flanker and 8. Defensive lineouts are why. Having a strong defensive lineout without 3 second row level jumpers is tough.

mountain man wrote:I think Marcus be fine, the choice is only between him and Fin anyway now so I think he's the more attacking option. I'm sure Fin will be given time on field anyway so both be able to show what they can do.
Thing is Japan and NZ be so different in type of game played and intensity that a gameplan for Japan unlikely to work against NZ.
However it's a chance to get players to gel a bit. Defence is good I think, it's more how Eng go in attack I'm keen to see.

mountain man wrote:Marcus has never quite convinced for Eng as he's done for Quins but it's another level up playing Int rugby and less time with team mates as opposed to club etc but my point is he will be fine, you question if he can bring the right balance to England and I'm confident he can. I think he is more than just a perfectly good 10, he has potential to be an excellent one. He is for club, just needs for everything to click for country.

As for gameplan, Japan unlikely to match set piece as NZ will and I think they will want a more loose game so England need to be ready for that as I'm sure they will be. NZ at their best as we know have a complete game, so I think what works against Japan won't necessarily work against NZ.
We'll see.