England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

by Geordie Tue 16 Apr 2024, 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

by mountain man Mon 15 Jul 2024, 10:28 am

Dan Cole surely can't go on much longer. Whilst his scrummaging is still top quality his play in loose a bit well, static. Cannot have passengers in modern game with respect to the guy. Again another who won't make next RWC so time to blood someone who will.
Tighthead option is Asher Opuku-Fordjour, still very young and raw but will only get better and stronger. Get him in squad for AIs and see how he copes off bench maybe.

As others said, backrow almost an embarrassment of riches. Just getting right balance. CCS at 8 and Earl at 7 seems obvious to most although escaping the one who actually makes the decision. 6 then could be a fit Chessum or a Ted Hill if he gets in squad. Question is Underhill who is still virtually undroppable.

Is Slade really best 13 available? Issue is not having another 12 other than Lawrence which forces 13 position a bit.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:07 am

No Cole cant go much more...but surely you dont throw kids like Fordjour in to the mix. Thats asking for trouble. Id stick with Stuart, have another look at Trevor Davison etc at the moment and give the kids time to establish themsevles in the prem. Otherwise we'll cripple them.

Back row...i keep saying it but Pepper will force his way in to the mix....hes a complete player...watch him develop at Bath.
Slade is the best defensive leader at the moment...and im not sure Lawrence is able to match that.

Where does Will Joseph come in to the mix.

by mountain man Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:15 am

I'm not saying just throw Fordjour in to sink or swim, introduce him off bench to get experience at highest level. Likes of Marler really rate him and he's been very good for Sale. Will Stuart is such a frustration, has all the physical attributes to be a top class Int but blows hot and cold. He's had a lot of opportunites, will he get better?

by formerly known as Sam Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:24 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:I still think Ford is his go to at 10.

Ford is a really good player and has the game management others may not yet but is he the one to take England forward? The blueprint of England of old of forward dominance, kicks goals and get field position isn't enough any more at highest level. SA match or better for power up front, NZ have forward power and back play to cut any team open. Ireland although possibly on a slight decline from a massive high point are still excellent all around so I think England to beat very best teams need points of difference and likes of Marcus are it.

Whilst I want to see England take every game seriously and ideally win every game, ultimately the goal at end is next RWC. Will Ford be starting 10 then? I'm not advocating dropping him never to return but the team needs to be built around the key positions and 10 is one of them.

I think in the short term Ford is the player to take England forwards. He has the composure and the patience when the pressure is on. We kicked ball away in both tests when we could have played a little more. I think it was a touch of inexperience. Ford won't make the next world cup but I think he's a great option to act as mentor to the Smiths and guide the team in the short term. Marcus had two great first halfs but in both second halfs struggled to make a telling impact.

Marcus is definitely getting closer to being the England go to but I'd still back Ford. Ford can do more than kick the ball which I think he demonstrated very well in the 6N.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:30 am

Geordie wrote:No Cole cant go much more...but surely you dont throw kids like Fordjour in to the mix. Thats asking for trouble. Id stick with Stuart, have another look at Trevor Davison etc at the moment and give the kids time to establish themsevles in the prem. Otherwise we'll cripple them.

Trevor Davison isn't far off his 32nd birthday. There's little point reintroducing him.

AOF has bags of potential but one start for Sale. Way to early for him. Be interesting to see how much game time he and Fasogbon can command this season.

Harper at Sale and Heyes at Tigers are the most likely to come in and contend with Cole. I agree we should stay with Stuart.

Harper at 23 has 11 starts and 24 appearances last season. Heyes at 25 had 12 starts and 18 appearances. Those guys look most primed to kick on.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:31 am

mountain man wrote:I'm not saying just throw Fordjour in to sink or swim, introduce him off bench to get experience at highest level. Likes of Marler really rate him and he's been very good for Sale. Will Stuart is such a frustration, has all the physical attributes to be a top class Int but blows hot and cold. He's had a lot of opportunites, will he get better?

But hes not even starting for his club? How can you play him for England?

I am all for giving the youngsters a go...BUT within reason. I say give him this season with Sale to see where he is...Sanderson will manage him well. Work with Stuart and Davison, see what Hayes is offering..maybe Chieka will work some magic with him...etc...

TH is a big problem...BUT we have others we can work on whilst the new brigade are brought through. A bit of patience is needed here i think. We are also in the process of changing of the colours at LH...so lets focus on that one.

Fordjour, Sell, Fasogabon are a year or two away in my opinion.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:33 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:No Cole cant go much more...but surely you dont throw kids like Fordjour in to the mix. Thats asking for trouble. Id stick with Stuart, have another look at Trevor Davison etc at the moment and give the kids time to establish themsevles in the prem. Otherwise we'll cripple them.

Trevor Davison isn't far off his 32nd birthday. There's little point reintroducing him.

AOF has bags of potential but one start for Sale. Way to early for him. Be interesting to see how much game time he and Fasogbon can command this season.

Harper at Sale and Heyes at Tigers are the most likely to come in and contend with Cole. I agree we should stay with Stuart.

Harper at 23 has 11 starts and 24 appearances last season. Heyes at 25 had 12 starts and 18 appearances. Those guys look most primed to kick on.

Purely as a stop gap Sam rather than dumping the kids in too soon.

I always forget about Harper! Yes look at him and Hayes in the meantime.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:42 am

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:No Cole cant go much more...but surely you dont throw kids like Fordjour in to the mix. Thats asking for trouble. Id stick with Stuart, have another look at Trevor Davison etc at the moment and give the kids time to establish themsevles in the prem. Otherwise we'll cripple them.

Trevor Davison isn't far off his 32nd birthday. There's little point reintroducing him.

AOF has bags of potential but one start for Sale. Way to early for him. Be interesting to see how much game time he and Fasogbon can command this season.

Harper at Sale and Heyes at Tigers are the most likely to come in and contend with Cole. I agree we should stay with Stuart.

Harper at 23 has 11 starts and 24 appearances last season. Heyes at 25 had 12 starts and 18 appearances. Those guys look most primed to kick on.

Purely as a stop gap Sam rather than dumping the kids in too soon.

I always forget about Harper! Yes look at him and Hayes in the meantime.

Cole is the ideal stop gap. He's still solid at international level and has been round the block so many times he just commands respect. Davison has less caps then Heyes I don't think he's worth investing time in as a stop gap.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 11:49 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:No Cole cant go much more...but surely you dont throw kids like Fordjour in to the mix. Thats asking for trouble. Id stick with Stuart, have another look at Trevor Davison etc at the moment and give the kids time to establish themsevles in the prem. Otherwise we'll cripple them.

Trevor Davison isn't far off his 32nd birthday. There's little point reintroducing him.

AOF has bags of potential but one start for Sale. Way to early for him. Be interesting to see how much game time he and Fasogbon can command this season.

Harper at Sale and Heyes at Tigers are the most likely to come in and contend with Cole. I agree we should stay with Stuart.

Harper at 23 has 11 starts and 24 appearances last season. Heyes at 25 had 12 starts and 18 appearances. Those guys look most primed to kick on.

Purely as a stop gap Sam rather than dumping the kids in too soon.

I always forget about Harper! Yes look at him and Hayes in the meantime.

Cole is the ideal stop gap. He's still solid at international level and has been round the block so many times he just commands respect. Davison has less caps then Heyes I don't think he's worth investing time in as a stop gap.

Well hes playing better than Hayes though...in a team playing good rugby. Hayes hasnt pushed on. If he comes out firing at the start of this season then fine.

Im just not comfortable throwing kids in to the international arena too early.

So we're stuck with: Cole, Stuart, Davison, Harper, Hayes as options. ALl have their pros and cons.

by Poorfour Mon 15 Jul 2024, 12:39 pm

Starting with the forwards and working back:
- Baxter showed that you can drop a very young prop in and have them perform well, if they have been prepared properly and people know they are ready. Cole and Marler have IIRC have both committed for another year, and that's time that can be used to start bringing a new generation through. If we need an older stopgap after that, then we bring one in. But there's little point in investing development time in players who won't be around long term. If the coaches think Opoku-Fordjour is ready, he should be brought through.

- Likewise for hookers. England aren't short of a few - there's Langdon as well as Dan, and Jibulu at Quins is younger than their other hookers (who are all strong) but looks to have the most potential.

- Locks I suspect is a question of combinations, and we have several credible lock/6 type players. Itoje, Martin and Chessum fill three of those slots but we probably need three more who will broaden out the squad.

- Back row we have options but I think we're a couple of iterations away from the right mix. Curry did not look fully ready to be back on the field in his appearances. CCS needs time to work on his stamina. But Underhill and Earl both looked in excellent shape. The challenge will be to find a pool of locks and back rows from whom England assemble a number of different 5/2 combinations that are both strong in the first 50 but have the experience to close out a tough game.

- Mitchell is the clear front runner. Neither Spencer nor Randall looked in control as a backup. When is JVP likely to be back to full form and fitness? Beyond that, Will Porter has improved hugely this season, looks ready to take over from Care but has also shown real impact off the bunch.

- I don't get the argument that Ford is the preferred option or that Fin Smith will leapfrog his namesake. Borthwick was clear that M Smith would have been the 10 for the 6N but for his injury, and F Smith looked to me like he needs more time off the bench to adapt to international rugby before he's ready to run a game as a starter. Either way, this is the window to run with the Smiths, ideally getting to a point where Borthwick can choose which one to start based on whether the game is likely to loosen up or tighten up in the second half. Ford remains a useful third option but continuing to see him as first choice risks getting to the RWC and having a Sexton moment.

- Inside Centre remains an issue. Lawrence was fine apart from some unfortunate penalties but isn't as effective at 12 as he would be at 13. But who else is there? There is a chance for several EQ players to put a marker down next season - Kelly, Hartley, whoever takes over from Esterhuizen at Quins, and that might be the answer. I wonder if Sean Kerr from the U20s will tour with the England side during the Lions summer with a view to seeing if he can be brought through?

- Outside Centre - Slade's attacking skills continue to be lacking but he runs the defence and that probably keeps him in a shirt until someone else is ready. There are lots of potential candidates, it just needs one to seize the opportunity.

- Wings - loads of options, but the three in possession probably have control of the shirt for now. Whatever Stephen Jones thinks.

- Fullback - Furbank showed by his absence what he brings to the team. Steward just isn't agile enough for the game plan, and it was hard watching him run into contact where Furbank had slipped through gaps the previous week. Again, some viable options who could come through, including the likes of Hodge, Carpenter and (if he can be persuaded to switch allegiance) Green. Just please not Malins.

by mountain man Mon 15 Jul 2024, 12:48 pm

Well this answers a few questions being discussed here. Ford still going to be an England 10 if not the England 10.
TH prop a concern.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cj7d14vgnvmo

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 2:24 pm

Poorfour wrote:Starting with the forwards and working back:
- Baxter showed that you can drop a very young prop in and have them perform well, if they have been prepared properly and people know they are ready. Cole and Marler have IIRC have both committed for another year, and that's time that can be used to start bringing a new generation through. If we need an older stopgap after that, then we bring one in. But there's little point in investing development time in players who won't be around long term. If the coaches think Opoku-Fordjour is ready, he should be brought through.

- Likewise for hookers. England aren't short of a few - there's Langdon as well as Dan, and Jibulu at Quins is younger than their other hookers (who are all strong) but looks to have the most potential.

Baxter is 22 and has been starting games for a while now, and has played some of the best Tight heads in the world in the Euro comps etc...as you say managed very well. Fordjour is a VERY different scenario. Hes 19 and has he even started a game for Sale 1st team in the prem or Euros yet?

Langdon has been unlucky with the timing of injuries etc but he defo should be in the squad. Jibulu looks an impressive talent, and Seb Blake is one to watch i think also.

by Poorfour Mon 15 Jul 2024, 3:40 pm

Geordie wrote:

Baxter is 22 and has been starting games for a while now, and has played some of the best Tight heads in the world in the Euro comps etc...as you say managed very well. Fordjour is a VERY different scenario. Hes 19 and has he even started a game for Sale 1st team in the prem or Euros yet?

Langdon has been unlucky with the timing of injuries etc but he defo should be in the squad. Jibulu looks an impressive talent, and Seb Blake is one to watch i think also.

That's probably fair, but Opoku-Fordjour is at the point where Baxter began his rise to senior rugby. He's been a regular substitute this year, but taking a bigger role as it wore on and in particular averaged 35 minutes per game across 5 Champions and Challenge Cup games. For Baxter, regular replacement appearances in 22/23 became taking over as the preferred starting loosehead somewhere around the middle of this season.

Jibulu has impressed me whenever I've seen him in action. He's likely to have a more phased introduction than Baxter, because Quins also have Walker, Musk, Head and Riley - but he had the third most appearances behind Walker and Riley, and the best stats of the hookers.

by formerly known as Sam Mon 15 Jul 2024, 3:54 pm

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:No Cole cant go much more...but surely you dont throw kids like Fordjour in to the mix. Thats asking for trouble. Id stick with Stuart, have another look at Trevor Davison etc at the moment and give the kids time to establish themsevles in the prem. Otherwise we'll cripple them.

Trevor Davison isn't far off his 32nd birthday. There's little point reintroducing him.

AOF has bags of potential but one start for Sale. Way to early for him. Be interesting to see how much game time he and Fasogbon can command this season.

Harper at Sale and Heyes at Tigers are the most likely to come in and contend with Cole. I agree we should stay with Stuart.

Harper at 23 has 11 starts and 24 appearances last season. Heyes at 25 had 12 starts and 18 appearances. Those guys look most primed to kick on.

Purely as a stop gap Sam rather than dumping the kids in too soon.

I always forget about Harper! Yes look at him and Hayes in the meantime.

Cole is the ideal stop gap. He's still solid at international level and has been round the block so many times he just commands respect. Davison has less caps then Heyes I don't think he's worth investing time in as a stop gap.

Well hes playing better than Hayes though...in a team playing good rugby. Hayes hasnt pushed on. If he comes out firing at the start of this season then fine.

Im just not comfortable throwing kids in to the international arena too early.

So we're stuck with: Cole, Stuart, Davison, Harper, Hayes as options. ALl have their pros and cons.

Problem with Davison is that he isn't a plug and play option. He's doesn't have much or any real international experience, hasn't been in recent squads so you are going to have to spend time and effort developing someone who will be 35/36 at the next world cup and who's nowt more than a solid operator.

Heyes is frustrating in that he hasn't kicked on again but is a solid operator and at 6 and a bit years younger and a member of recent squads is hopefully well placed to kick on with the development time. Hopefully during the AIs we'll bring in some apprentice spots in the squad and look to include some additional props there so that they can become set up in the defence and attack.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon 15 Jul 2024, 4:00 pm

The Breakdown show panel on Sky NZ wondered why Ireland have become a team which niggles opponents like NZ and SA to the point of real hostility, while the All Blacks can play England, and feel genuine respect afterwards.

The answer is surely staring them in the face. Ireland have shown they can beat both those sides, and do so on their home patch.

by Flintoff05 Wed 17 Jul 2024, 11:54 pm

Glad to hear that England 'A' will take on their Australian equivalent in November at the Stoop. A more competitive fixture than the one against Portugal earlier this year.

by Geordie Thu 18 Jul 2024, 12:29 pm

Flintoff05 wrote:Glad to hear that England 'A' will take on their Australian equivalent in November at the Stoop. A more competitive fixture than the one against Portugal earlier this year.

Yup....No first XV players allowed....only subs / fringe Senior squad should be involved...(exception maybe CCS if they'd like a look at him at 8?)

by doctor_grey Thu 18 Jul 2024, 12:35 pm

Geordie wrote:
Flintoff05 wrote:Glad to hear that England 'A' will take on their Australian equivalent in November at the Stoop. A more competitive fixture than the one against Portugal earlier this year.

Yup....No first XV players allowed....only subs / fringe Senior squad should be involved...(exception maybe CCS if they'd like a look at him at 8?)

Is that right? Very good for both teams and for us as supporters. Probably the right size venue for this fixture as well. Hopefully this can be come normal-ish again?

by Geordie Thu 18 Jul 2024, 12:36 pm

doctor_grey wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Flintoff05 wrote:Glad to hear that England 'A' will take on their Australian equivalent in November at the Stoop. A more competitive fixture than the one against Portugal earlier this year.

Yup....No first XV players allowed....only subs / fringe Senior squad should be involved...(exception maybe CCS if they'd like a look at him at 8?)
Is that right? Very good for both teams and for us as supporters. Probably the right size venue for this fixture as well. Hopefully this can be come normal-ish again?

Noooooo just how i think it should be Very Happy

by Pebbles Thu 18 Jul 2024, 12:43 pm

Think they’re missing a trick by not holding the game somewhere other than south west London, even if the Clapham Aussie population have to travel a bit further Wink

by formerly known as Sam Thu 18 Jul 2024, 1:55 pm

In the last A game they took the opportunity to give young EQ coaches and players a chance. I'd imagine they'd do so again.

Using the Stoop as the venue is less than ideal but I think they try to move it around all the Prem grounds to share the wealth and give different fan bases the chance to get cheap tickets to see an England side play.

by carpet baboon Thu 18 Jul 2024, 3:45 pm

I say bring back the Churchill cup or some other "A" team comp every summer

by Cumbrian Thu 18 Jul 2024, 7:18 pm

carpet baboon wrote:I say bring back the Churchill cup or some other "A" team comp every summer

Agree with this, should be using it as a tool to regularly expose tier 2 nations to higher standard of rugby, it is criminal that it stopped really. In an ideal world I'd like a European competition that involved the six nations teams' A sides that had promotion and relegation involving Georgia, Romania, Portugal and Spain etc during February/March and a Churchill Cup competition in North America in June/July.

by doctor_grey Fri 19 Jul 2024, 12:06 am

Cumbrian wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:I say bring back the Churchill cup or some other "A" team comp every summer

Agree with this, should be using it as a tool to regularly expose tier 2 nations to higher standard of rugby, it is criminal that it stopped really. In an ideal world I'd like a European competition that involved the six nations teams' A sides that had promotion and relegation involving Georgia, Romania, Portugal and Spain etc during February/March and a Churchill Cup competition in North America in June/July.

Agree as well.
Only challenge for a renewed Churchill Cup is funding, much of which had come from the RFU in the past. If that can be worked out, a big 'if', of course, then I think this could do very well. High level sport at hopefully reasonable prices is almost always a winner.

I like having some form of second tier Six nations at the same time as the existing Six Nations, which I also think would do well: The supporter interest and energy for the existing Six Nations, especially for the fringe Rugby fans, could drive interest in the second tier comp. And, hopefully, that drives wider interest and improves the sport at both levels.

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 19 Jul 2024, 1:37 am

doctor_grey wrote:...Only challenge for a renewed Churchill Cup is funding, much of which had come from the RFU in the past...

Exactly that.

The Churchill Cup stopped, because World Rugby planned to include the USA and Canada in the regular Test calendar. That never really panned out to the benefit of either team, so there's probably a bit of regret that it didn't continue.

Since then, however, the RFU blundered into losses, and doesn't have sufficient funds for the amateur game, Championship, and international Sevens teams. They just haven't got the dough for something like the Churchill Cup, no matter how useful it would be as a player and coaching development tool.

by doctor_grey Fri 19 Jul 2024, 5:24 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:...Only challenge for a renewed Churchill Cup is funding, much of which had come from the RFU in the past...

Exactly that.

The Churchill Cup stopped, because World Rugby planned to include the USA and Canada in the regular Test calendar. That never really panned out to the benefit of either team, so there's probably a bit of regret that it didn't continue.

Since then, however, the RFU blundered into losses, and doesn't have sufficient funds for the amateur game, Championship, and international Sevens teams. They just haven't got the dough for something like the Churchill Cup, no matter how useful it would be as a player and coaching development tool.

At this point I have no idea in which of the different Rugby entities CVC has invested. But developing a working cost and funding model for comps like this should be right down the middle for Citibank...

By the way, that's frustration aimed squarely at CVC and the Rugby entities they are in business with.

by Unclear Fri 19 Jul 2024, 8:11 pm

[quote="doctor_grey"]

Rugby Fan wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:...Only challenge for a renewed Churchill Cup is funding, much of which had come from the RFU in the past...

But developing a working cost and funding model for comps like this should be right down the middle for Citibank...

By the way, that's frustration aimed squarely at CVC and the Rugby entities they are in business with.

The same CVC that did nothing in the way of development for F1 but just took the share of the profits? You do surprise me .....

There may be a place for private equity but CVC show no inclination to do anything but take their money.

by Geordie Sat 20 Jul 2024, 10:18 am

Do people think Kpoku playing for France is inevitable. I didn't realise he was 6'8 and 19st....France qould be gaining a supersized Itoje...barstewards!

I hope the front row lads continue to develop. I've not always been impressed with Fasogabon, maybe unfairly judged him as just a big lump. But he has shown up well.

Hopefully Gloucester give him plenty of gametime this season and totally prove me wrong.

by lostinwales Sat 20 Jul 2024, 11:09 am

Kpoku grabs headlines but Sodeke is just as big and Bellamy looked very handy yesterday.
Can't remember is ever having such a set of locks at U20 before.

by doctor_grey Sat 20 Jul 2024, 11:46 am

Unclear wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:...Only challenge for a renewed Churchill Cup is funding, much of which had come from the RFU in the past...

But developing a working cost and funding model for comps like this should be right down the middle for Citibank...

By the way, that's frustration aimed squarely at CVC and the Rugby entities they are in business with.

The same CVC that did nothing in the way of development for F1 but just took the share of the profits? You do surprise me .....

There may be a place for private equity but CVC show no inclination to do anything but take their money.

Here is my disconnect with CVC and Rugby. CVC, like most venture capital groups invest to grow and make their acquisitions more valuable. It doesn't make any sense to me that CVC would invest £200 million in the Premiership (or thereabouts) and not do anything to improve their holdings. It is not like the Premiership was overly profitable before they got here.

And, yes, the Premiership does not have any Einsteins running the show, but any reasonable organisation in discussion with venture capital involves the venture capital to improve the operation of their business, not just go after the money. Yet that is what we see. It just doesn't make sense. Unless there is some great work being done behind the scenes. Which I doubt.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat 20 Jul 2024, 12:59 pm

doctor_grey wrote:...CVC, like most venture capital groups invest to grow and make their acquisitions more valuable. It doesn't make any sense to me that CVC would invest £200 million in the Premiership (or thereabouts) and not do anything to improve their holdings...

The FT had this article in March

Preparations for the Six Nations Championship got under way earlier than usual this year, as star players turned up for the glitzy London premiere of the competition’s debut series on streaming platform Netflix. Also in attendance was Nick Clarry, the managing partner responsible for CVC Capital Partners’ sports investments, including the Six Nations, the annual tournament pitting Europe’s top national teams against each other that wraps up in Lyon this weekend.

Full Contact, which has been renewed for a second season, is one of the most visible signs that rugby’s private equity investors are beginning to make their mark on how the game operates and markets itself. As rugby union starts to look beyond a period of financial turmoil caused by the pandemic, investors and executives in the game are now switching focus to how more fundamental changes might help it grow and win over young fans.

“Rugby has been brilliant at competing with itself for a long time, but we’re getting through that,” said Tom Harrison, the chief executive of Six Nations Rugby and former professional cricketer, on the sport’s fragmented structure. “We’re thinking about the health of the game as a collective. And that is a hugely important thing.”

As well as the push into streaming, the Six Nations has belatedly adopted changes that other sports implemented long ago. This year’s championship marked the first time that every player has had his name on the back of his shirt, a move the English Premier League adopted more than 30 years ago.

By investing across the game, CVC is in pole position to reshape it. The tournament is no longer clashing with England’s domestic club league. The Premiership, in which CVC bought a 27 per cent stake in 2018, is on hold for the duration of the Six Nations. The firm also owns a significant minority holding in the United Rugby Championship, an annual tournament featuring teams from Ireland, Italy, Scotland, South Africa and Wales.

Clarry told the Financial Times that there was now a path to “significant growth” that will feed back into the club game, with a global calendar aligned to create a “year long festival” for fans.

There was also the potential for key players in the sport to come together to form a “F1 of rugby”, with one management team in place to develop the brands, the competitions, and digital platforms, he said.

The possibilities are being explored by senior decision makers in the sport, under “Project Amplify”, according to three people with knowledge of the matter. The discussions, which involve rugby competitions in which CVC has a stake, could also involve other groups.

Private equity interest in rugby stretches beyond CVC. US-based Silver Lake recently increased its holding in New Zealand Rugby’s commercial arm to 7.5 per cent. Despite opposition from the country’s association for players, the technology-focused firm, which has several sports investments, took an initial 5.7 per cent stake for NZ$200mn in 2022. Some of that money has been used to launch NZR+, a streaming platform.

South Africa could soon follow suit, with a vote due in May on whether to sell a stake in a new commercial entity to Seattle-based firm Ackerley Sports Group. The proposed deal for a 20 per cent in the new business would raise $75mn for SA Rugby.

In explaining the rationale for the deal, SA Rugby said: “A private equity partnership offers not just an immediate financial boost but also crucially provides the expertise, networks and resources necessary to enhance the commercial value of South African rugby.”

However, CVC has not had an easy time of it. The pandemic battered Premiership clubs, which used CVC funds to stay afloat rather than fund growth. Worcester Warriors, Wasps and London Irish collapsed, shrinking the league to 10 teams this season. Without the investment, club executives say the league itself may not have survived.

Andrew Umbers, managing partner at Oakwell Sports Advisory, estimates that the pandemic resulted in lost revenues of over £250mn for Premiership clubs, more than £200mn for the teams that compete in the Six Nations, and pushed back the implementation of CVC’s commercial strategy for the sport by up to four years.

Since CVC and Silver Lake first invested in rugby union, the media market for live sport in Europe has also softened, frustrating aspirations for a dedicated rugby channel on pay-TV. The sport is also facing headwinds of reduced youth participation and growing concerns about the health risks associated with playing at the highest level.

While senior figures across the sport agree that private equity is a force for change, some complain that reform has been slow. “The dial has not been changed enough,” said a senior figure in the English game. Another said that “little progress” had been made on the key issue of growing the value of the sport’s media rights, with change proving “much harder than they’d realised”.

Others caution that the number of stakeholders involved could complicate CVC’s ambitions of setting up a single management company akin to F1, which the firm owned until early 2017. “This is something that makes sense but it’s easier said than done,” said one media rights expert.

Others see the sport moving in the right direction. Premiership chief Simon Massie-Taylor said there were still “kinks” in rugby because of “how things are structured”, but that the sport has got a lot better at working together.

Clarry is also optimistic. A revamp of the global calendar, which was unveiled by governing body World Rugby last October, should help limit fixture clashes between domestic leagues and flagship international events. New competitions are coming, such as the Nations Cup in 2026, in a move designed to build audiences and increase revenues.

“This set of steps would result in a better product for players, fans and commercial partners, and more revenues to reinvest back in the game,” Clarry added. “That is the direction of travel.”

https://www.ft.com/content/2c23b2ca-7b94-4593-b197-1b721463df09

by Flintoff05 Tue 23 Jul 2024, 11:40 pm

Geordie wrote:
Flintoff05 wrote:Glad to hear that England 'A' will take on their Australian equivalent in November at the Stoop. A more competitive fixture than the one against Portugal earlier this year.

Yup....No first XV players allowed....only subs / fringe Senior squad should be involved...(exception maybe CCS if they'd like a look at him at 8?)

I'd expect CCS to be involved against South Africa the day before.

by Geordie Wed 24 Jul 2024, 8:21 am

lostinwales wrote:Kpoku grabs headlines but Sodeke is just as big and Bellamy looked very handy yesterday.
Can't remember is ever having such a set of locks at U20 before.

Do you mean Bailey?

by Geordie Wed 24 Jul 2024, 8:22 am

Flintoff05 wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Flintoff05 wrote:Glad to hear that England 'A' will take on their Australian equivalent in November at the Stoop. A more competitive fixture than the one against Portugal earlier this year.

Yup....No first XV players allowed....only subs / fringe Senior squad should be involved...(exception maybe CCS if they'd like a look at him at 8?)

I'd expect CCS to be involved against South Africa the day before.

Ah i hadnt checked the dates..didnt realise the Firsts were playing the day before.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 24 Jul 2024, 10:54 am

It was silly to not get Opoku-Fordjour involved back in the 6Ns. Probs because our jobs for the boys scum coach ain't got a clue though and still wants him at loose head despite being best placed to come in and make a difference.

Surely time for Barbeary to come into the fold if they're still being foolish enough to ignore Mercer. Earl looked back to normal in NZ, flashes but he's not a starter with the other options we have.

by WELL-PAST-IT Wed 24 Jul 2024, 11:33 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was silly to not get Opoku-Fordjour involved back in the 6Ns. Probs because our jobs for the boys scum coach ain't got a clue though and still wants him at loose head despite being best placed to come in and make a difference.

Surely time for Barbeary to come into the fold if they're still being foolish enough to ignore Mercer. Earl looked back to normal in NZ, flashes but he's not a starter with the other options we have.

That is a bit harsh, just because they are not all public school educated, no need to call them scum. You are not on the floor of the House of Commons you know. boxing

by mikey_dragon Wed 24 Jul 2024, 12:53 pm

Recently I seen a comparison with the 2016 and 2024 England U20 sides, both have won the JWC. What struck me is how average the 2016 team is, backline was decent I guess. I remember they weren't good in the U20 6N that year, but turned it around for the JWC and convincingly beat Ireland U20 in the final. Good coaching. The 2024 team looks a lot more promising, that forward pack especially.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Jul 2024, 2:18 pm

LEWIS BOYCE
JACK SINGLETON
BILLY WALKER
STAN SOUTH
HUW TAYLOR
GEORGE NOTT
WILL EVANS
CALLUM CHICK
MAX GREEN
HARRY MALLINDER (C)
MATT GALLAGHER
JOHNNY WILLIAMS
JOE MARCHANT
SAM ASPLAND-ROBINSON
MAX MALINS

As a starting XV it was a mixed bag. The starting pack, particularly the tight five, weren't the strongest but the backline was pretty good. Arguably some of the bench was stronger with Jack Willis and Will Stuart both featuring there for England.

England's forwards that year we're good enough to keep them in the fight for the backs to make the difference. The backline really was high quality and has yielded three internationals, a couple of solid club men and two who could have done more were it not for injury. Randall on the bench with Thorley as well, they've both been capped.

This time round the backline did enough to keep us in the fight whilst the forwards won it for us. I suspect the forwards this time will provide the bulk of internationals though the starting XV above did provide Chick and Singleton to international caps with Stuart and Willis from the bench as well.

by Poorfour Wed 24 Jul 2024, 3:01 pm

The squad was good enough to stay in the fight with one genuine game changer in Marchant. If you watch the 2016 matches back, the team really relied on him both to create scoring opportunities and to get them out of trouble.

The commentators were very focused on Williams and Evans - both of whom went on to decent careers - but I know the dad of one of the wider squad that year, who said that the players all knew it was Marchant who was their key player.

The 2024 squad is much better balanced. The challenge now is to bring them through to senior rugby in a way that makes the most of their talents. For the props in particular I would be happy to see them managed in the same way as Baxter, and be protected a little until they are physically mature and have the skills to take on senior players

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Jul 2024, 6:54 pm

Poorfour wrote:The squad was good enough to stay in the fight with one genuine game changer in Marchant. If you watch the 2016 matches back, the team really relied on him both to create scoring opportunities and to get them out of trouble.

The commentators were very focused on Williams and Evans - both of whom went on to decent careers - but I know the dad of one of the wider squad that year, who said that the players all knew it was Marchant who was their key player.

The 2024 squad is much better balanced. The challenge now is to bring them through to senior rugby in a way that makes the most of their talents. For the props in particular I would be happy to see them managed in the same way as Baxter, and be protected a little until they are physically mature and have the skills to take on senior players

I thought Williams and Marchant were a good centre combination. Williams took on a lot of the hard carrying and tackling that allowed Marchant to shine as England's x-factor at 13. Mallinder at 10 wasn't ideal but his ability to run over most of the other 10s in the tournament added to the midfield threat significantly.

To be honest I thought the 2024 team was particularly weak at flyhalf and without Kerr they'd have been pretty rudderless in the midfield. Back three had skills but consistently use them.

by Geordie Wed 24 Jul 2024, 7:53 pm

Yeah I thought it was a poor fly half this WC.

OK people...Ollie Chessum....lock or 6? And don't say Both...

by formerly known as Sam Wed 24 Jul 2024, 9:42 pm

Geordie wrote:Yeah I thought it was a poor fly half this WC.

OK people...Ollie Chessum....lock or 6? And don't say Both...

Depends on others for club and country. He might well be a 6 in the short term with Tigers losing Weise and potentially shuffling Liebenburg to 8, moving Chessum to 6 allows us to field a big and mobile pack. As Beets and Carnduff come through he'll go back into the second row.

Could well be similar with England. Borthwick has doubts over CCS lasting 80 mins and he got smashed on the gain line in the second test as the ABs pack went looking for him. Chessum is less dynamic but reliable and has a massive engine. As Ted Hill, CCS develop (maybe Carnduff as well) he'll move back to covering second row and leave 6 to the specialists.

by lostinwales Thu 25 Jul 2024, 12:07 pm

2016. Watched that England team smash a Scottish 15 with a lot of current out recent internationals. Wasn't a great game. Prince Harry was the tallest guy on the pitch, at least until the younger Kitchener in as a substitute

by Geordie Fri 26 Jul 2024, 8:13 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:Yeah I thought it was a poor fly half this WC.

OK people...Ollie Chessum....lock or 6? And don't say Both...

Depends on others for club and country. He might well be a 6 in the short term with Tigers losing Weise and potentially shuffling Liebenburg to 8, moving Chessum to 6 allows us to field a big and mobile pack. As Beets and Carnduff come through he'll go back into the second row.

Could well be similar with England. Borthwick has doubts over CCS lasting 80 mins and he got smashed on the gain line in the second test as the ABs pack went looking for him. Chessum is less dynamic but reliable and has a massive engine. As Ted Hill, CCS develop (maybe Carnduff as well) he'll move back to covering second row and leave 6 to the specialists.

And thats where you need to exploit gaps elsewhere...Using Earl etc. Its coming.

I still think Ted Hill has a say in this aswell.

by Sharkey06 Tue 30 Jul 2024, 5:20 pm

I am surprised that Ehren Painter and Josh Iosefa-Scott haven't been given much of a look in at International level. They are both pretty substantial units at 135kgs+ and at only 26 and 28 have plenty of good years ahead of them. We know what the South African team did to Genge and Sinkler in the world cup semi final and Stuart was dismantled in the 2022 Autumn international against South Africa.

The recent games against New Zealand have shown that we need to find 4 props who can scrummage. Bevan Rodd may be halfway decent in the loose, but any Sale fan will tell you he cannot scrummage so seems a pointless pick against South Africa, New Zealand, France and Ireland. Do the South African props do much more than scrummage, lift at the lineout and make their tackles? Uini Antonio isn't known for running in tries from 50m.

Other countries see our scrum as an easy target, so lets throw some big bodies in - they certainly can't do any worse than a lot of the options we have tried.

by Poorfour Tue 30 Jul 2024, 5:36 pm

I didn't say this, but I think what England need to do is to poach Adam Jones as a scrum coach. There is a large intersection between "England props of the last decade who can actually scrummage" and "Props coached by Adam Jones".

Marler, Collier, Baxter and (pre-Bristol) Sinckler would all be in both categories. Only Cole (who can remember the Cicxulub impact) and Genge (on a good day) are in the first category but not the second.

Jones will sooner or later coach internationally, and it won't be with Wales as long as Gatland is involved. A year ago, I'd have wanted him to stay at Quins, but I'd rather he was coaching for England than against us. We'd need a replacement at the Stoop, but Marler only has one year left on his playing contract.

by king_carlos Tue 30 Jul 2024, 6:32 pm

Probably a stretch putting Collier in there to be honest, Poorfour. A good Prem prop and a decent scrummager but he's hardly destroyed people at Prem level. Of the uncapped or barely looked at props, I'd say that any of VRR, Davison, Balmain and even the likes of Harry Williams have shown similar prowess at Prem level. Obano and Stuart have also looked good in the scrum at that standard. It's a big step up that you're presuming Collier would've made to be throwing him in with Marler.

There's also the small speed bump that Marler and Collier's careers started years before Bomb even retired. By the same logic, we could give Harrison credit for Genge and Cole as he worked with them after they'd already learnt to scrummage! I'll give you Baxter though. He looks a terrific player and Bomb's worked with him from a very young age.

I think the scrum is trending in the right direction generally. The ABs probably have the second best scrum going with the crop of props they've got now that de Groot and Lomax have come through. Given the absence of Genge and then Marler, it's not a disaster for them to get the upper hand.

Whilst the current Boks pack is a complete anomaly. Their tight five depth isn't getting replicated by anyone else. They've had a ludicrous golden generation of props, hookers and locks all coincide. If that's what folk are expecting England to build, then we'll be waiting a while.

Tighthead clearly needs players to come through but I think it is key to look at other nations to see how tough it is to bring through players in these positions. Ireland have a massive fall off from their starting props. Likewise Scotland but even worse at TH - see Millar-Mills and Hurd. France are groping around in the dark a little bit trying to find an Antonio replacement. Australia have a huge drop off from Tupou at TH and Slipper is at basically the same career stage as Cole but keeps being selected for similar reasons. Argentina have been struggling for a while and were using Joel Sclavi to cover LH, by a distance his weaker side, at the RWC. Wales' props are just a running joke amongst Welsh fans at the moment. England are far from alone in needing new blood and trying to select the right youngsters to develop in the front row.

by Poorfour Tue 30 Jul 2024, 7:12 pm

Anyone who saw Collier scrummaging against Argentina in his first cap, and most scrum coaches, would disagree with you. It was on the traditional England tour of South America in a Lions year, and it included a scrum that was rock solid for over 30 seconds. From memory the opposing front row at the time was Garcia Botta, Montoya and Chaparro.

Collier isn't destructive as a scrummager but he's been repeatedly cited by scrum coaches as one of the best technical scrummagers in world rugby. Quins don't generally scrummage for penalties (a practice I detest), but to get the ball out while tying the forwards in. He was perfect for that, and preferred to Wilco Louw when Quins were facing a better scrum. He didn't get more caps largely because he's not particularly dynamic in the loose.

Bomb was specifically hired by Quins to mentor and coach two (then) young tightheads (being advised that "one's posh [Collier], but the other's a bit of a nutter [Sinckler]"). Both had played a bit but were in need of more development; Bomb wanted a transition into coaching. Collier picked up a long term injury shortly after, and had to rebuild his technique and confidence Bomb played a big role in that. I would also say he improved Marler's scrummaging, and it's notable how much Sinckler's dropped off after he moved.

by king_carlos Tue 30 Jul 2024, 9:44 pm

I think Sinckler's drop off was more to do with the back injury than anything else. He became a completely different player after that. Not nearly as dynamic in the loose and he didn't move as well. Other parts of his game were still really solid. He wasn't ever the same though. It's such a shame. He was flirting with world class for a brief period when he put it all together.

I'm not saying Bomb isn't a good scrum coach. I just think it's a massive stretch to throw Collier into the same category as Genge, Marler, Cole and Sinckler. He had two 20 minute bench apps during what's basically a development tour where he was playing behind Harry Williams. Matt Mullan was on the other side of that scrum of that 30 second scrum in the 2017 series. Collier is a good player and a solid scrummager, but he's not done anything to throw him in with two test Lions, another Lions tourist and another LH with over 50 caps. It just seems a humungous reach!

by Poorfour Wed 31 Jul 2024, 6:59 am

Number of caps is not an accurate measure of scrummaging ability.

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