England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

by Geordie Tue 16 Apr 2024, 1:51 pm

First topic message reminder :

Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

by **Rugby Fan** Fri 21 Jun 2024, 3:26 pm

Telegraph has an interesting piece on Borthwick's interactions with the players since he took over.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/21/unified-england-steve-borthwick-rfu-players-leadership/

In a coffee shop in Verona, a small group of England’s senior players gathered around a table, each wondering what they were doing there. The invitation had come from England head coach Steve Borthwick. Was this a social thing? Surely not.

Their bafflement was not misplaced. They knew that Borthwick rarely does anything without a purpose. The gathering in the northern Italian city, famous as the setting of Romeo and Juliet, would have dramatic repercussions.

Borthwick arrived with Richard Wigglesworth, his attack coach. It was July 2023 and England were already in their second month of training for the World Cup in France. Verona had been chosen to allow the players to train in extreme heat, both for physical adaptation but also to test how they would react while experiencing physical and emotional stress.

The stress levels were starting to rise in the coffee shop, too. Borthwick told the players that he should not be there. The only reason that he had been parachuted in as England coach just nine months before the start of the World Cup following the sacking of Eddie Jones was that the team had lost too many games. And too many games that they should have won.

And what mystified Borthwick was that why, no matter what the players had made of the coaching under Jones, they had not attempted to arrest the slide themselves? He turned to Jamie George, Dan Cole, Ellis Genge and Joe Marler. England’s scrum had fallen to 10th in the world rankings. How had it come to this? Borthwick promised them that he would give everything to coach them to the best of his ability, but to do so he needed total buy-in from them.

Borthwick asked the players to start holding meetings themselves so they could take greater ownership. He would attend but only if they wanted him too. It took another prompt a couple of weeks later before the meetings would get under way, and when they did, several other senior players were added.

The ‘England Way’

The most impactful contribution came from Jonny May, who is known for his bluntness. May is said to have challenged Owen Farrell, Courtney Lawes and Ellis Genge, asking how they expected the squad to all be on the same page when they were at odds with each other. The words landed. Everyone started pulling in the same direction.

The players did not know it yet, but they had just taken the first step of what has become known as the “England Way”, a coaching framework that underscores Borthwick’s vision for his side.

There was not enough time before the World Cup in France, however, to make many significant changes. Borthwick contacted Tony Bennett, the head coach of the University of Virginia basketball side after listening numerous times to his podcast on “Winning and What Truly Matters”. Bennett told him that before a side started winning, they had to stop losing. England had too often been architects of their own downfall. If you do not stand for something, you fall for anything, Bennett warned.

At the core of England’s new identity, Borthwick wanted them to become renowned for being hard to beat, an attribute instinctive to the best English sides.

The decision was taken to stick with experience and a limited game plan at the World Cup, even if it would result in brickbats from all corners about their playing style, to achieve the first major transition, one that would culminate in an above-par third-place finish.

The evolution accelerated during the Six Nations this year, with the next milestone coming after the defeat by Scotland at Murrayfield. One of the most damaging legacies of Jones’s tenure was the impact of bearing the weight of the fear of failure.

Players spoke of the torment of attending post-match reviews led by a sports psychologist employed by Jones who lost all respect by talking about their own achievements while highlighting the players’ shortcomings. The weight of the England shirt became so heavy that, at times, it was easier for players to go missing in games for fear of the consequences of making mistakes.

When the squad arrived for a training camp in York following the defeat at Murrayfield during a fallow week in the Six Nations, they feared the worst.

The defeat by Scotland was the first time since the defeat by Fiji at Twickenham in the final World Cup warm-up match that England’s key men had “played soft”. The defeat by Fiji could be explained by the fear of picking up an injury the week before heading to France for the World Cup, heightened by a tearful withdrawal by Anthony Watson just days earlier after he had picked up a calf injury in the defeat by Ireland.

There was no such excuse for the Scotland defeat, which was more critical, coming at a make-or-break moment for England’s Six Nations campaign.

George Furbank had replaced Freddie Steward at full-back in an attempt to bring greater pace and creativity to the back three but had endured a torrid afternoon in Edinburgh. So, too, had George Ford at fly-half. The first thing Borthwick did was approach both of them and reassure them they were already in his team to face Ireland in 10 days’ time.

“We had all been s---ting ourselves,” one player said. “We had been here before too many times and feared the worst. But Steve defused the situation on the first day.”

What had disappointed Borthwick most was not the mistakes, but that players had taken themselves out of the fight as a consequence. Borthwick told them that he would prefer to pick a lesser player who stayed in the fight than a more talented one who opted out.

He did not want players looking over their shoulders. They should know that if they had been picked, he was going to have their backs as long as they were giving everything they had. England were never going to compete with the best in the world unless they had a mindset that wanted to make things happen. One that wanted to avoid mistakes was of no use to anyone.

It was a sentiment not lost on Jamie George, the England captain.

“I know that personally, playing with fear doesn’t bring the best out of me,” George said. “It might work for certain individuals but it doesn’t work for me, so having the trust of the head coach for a lot of people is really valuable. Our ethos as a team is that we want to encourage people to push – we are not going to get better if we just keep doing the same things.

‘We need to be in a position where we are OK with making mistakes. We don’t want to make the same mistake twice, but as long as those mistakes are made with an intention to get the team better or at an intensity where we are trying to push things, then we have no problem with that.”

When the players assembled for the summer tour involving Tests against Japan and two against New Zealand, that message had been expounded again and again to the players as Borthwick sought to implement the next stage of the “England Way”.

Encouraging a “play-without-fear mindset” is not just about the reaction to performances, but taking stress away from the players when they arrive in camp. There are still many players scarred from previous defeats who carry that burden with them.

Analysis shows the correlation between stress and performance for most players remains positive until stress levels dominate. Some do respond better to the stick than the carrot, but this England coaching team have placed a premium on taking stress away from them.

Similar to how Brendon McCullum has forged an environment with the England cricket team, Borthwick wants his players to know their worth in his squad to free them up to perform at their best.

But there is a bigger picture at play, too. Borthwick tasked his analysts to look at the correlation between consistency in selection and success, given the perception that, after the 2019 World Cup and Jones’s departure in 2022, there had been no apparent clear direction in selection and an alarmingly high rate of churn.

A scoring system was used to look at how often a player was picked in the 23-man squad in the last 10 games. In 2021, England averaged a score of nearly eight out of 10, the highest of all their international rivals, but it collapsed the following year, with disastrous consequences.

The top three sides in the world, South Africa, Ireland and New Zealand have scores of 6.39, 6.70 and 6.28 respectively. England are sitting at 5.37. Borthwick’s target for England is 6.50 or above, which explains why he is going to select his strongest sides for all three games on the tour.

The continuity of selection also offers benefits in cohesion and experience, two other key performance indicators for the best teams. While a target of picking a match-day squad with at least 900 caps will be beyond England during this tour, if Borthwick can pick at least the same 20 players for every game, England will increase their total number of caps by 60 over this tour, 80 in the autumn Test series and by 100 during next year’s Six Nations.

That will be key in maintaining the level of experience when veterans such as Dan Cole and Joe Marler end their Test careers.

The desire for greater cohesion will lead England to continue to draw on club combinations – they deliberately picked five Harlequins on the bench against Ireland because of the impact it could have in the final quarter – while Borthwick also hopes stability in selection and mindset will allow the team’s identity to flourish.

England may be forced to wear their dark blue away kit against Japan in the searing heat and humidity brought by an afternoon kick-off, no doubt deliberately picked by Jones to make his former team feel the heat. But no matter the strip, Borthwick hopes his “England Way” will mean his side play in a way that makes them instantly recognisable.

by king_carlos Fri 21 Jun 2024, 3:33 pm

Geordie wrote:
Well we'll wait and see...ive seen him have some games where hes been very good in the lineout...and is only going to develop more there...i would suggest he'll be better that Tom curry, Dombrandt etc.

I agree he's slightly better than Curry. Not significantly though. That's the issue with many 'third jumpers' though. They are generally only an asset on your own ball when the stronger two jumpers are marked. Which definitely is useful, but completely different to what the likes of Lawes, PSdT, POM, Ollivon, etc add. That's a genuine option on offensive and defensive lineouts. Which changes how you can approach the lineout. I really don't see CCS becoming that sort of jumper. The difference in how often CCS will be a viable option compared to someone like Curry is actually pretty negligible despite being a slightly better jumper.

You can of course play with two strong jumpers and that third useful option on your own ball. It generally means altering your game plan though. Kicking in field far more. If the opposition get on top of your lineout defensive lineout, it often means attacking the breakdown less and slowing line speed as field position combined with having the lineout throw can very quickly spiral if your defensive lineout doesn't stack up. That in particular is an interesting example of balancing tactics as having an extra jumper in the back row (i.e. Chessum at 6) frequently weakens your breakdown threat on paper (i.e. picking Earl, Curry and Underhill in the same back row). Having a weak defensive lineout can then nullify your ability to frequently attack the breakdown as the risk vs reward tips too far towards risk. An interesting example of unintended consequences.

Recent France teams are a good case study there. When they were playing Flament, Woki and Ollivon in the same pack they would kick for touch a bit more, contest the opposition lineout. With Meafou, Willemse or Tuilagi they kick in field far more. Both can work, but, require significant changes in strategy. When predominantly kicking in field, Dupont spends more time in the backfield with Ntamack and Ramos. When kicking for touch more often, Dupont can come up in the d-line, where he's available as an additional jackal threat and, most importantly, to be the first player on hand for a pass from turnover ball. A seemingly small change to the balance of the pack can have a big impact on the tactics everywhere else.

A good England rugby analogy is the difference between a second playmaker such as M Smith or Furbank at 15, compared to Slade at 13. The former is a good enough distributor and kicker that they can play 10 for the best attacks in the Prem. Slade is a useful passing and kicking option who's slightly better than other centres such as Dingwall. Slade has generally barely moved the dial as a playmaker. Whereas a second fly-half in the backline completely alters how you can approach the game ball in hand. That's similar re the difference between useful jumpers like CCS and a 3rd elite option on attack and defence like Chessum or Lawes.

by king_carlos Fri 21 Jun 2024, 3:37 pm

RF - That was a really interesting read. Cheers for posting.

by Geordie Fri 21 Jun 2024, 9:02 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:
Well we'll wait and see...ive seen him have some games where hes been very good in the lineout...and is only going to develop more there...i would suggest he'll be better that Tom curry, Dombrandt etc.

I agree he's slightly better than Curry. Not significantly though. That's the issue with many 'third jumpers' though. They are generally only an asset on your own ball when the stronger two jumpers are marked. Which definitely is useful, but completely different to what the likes of Lawes, PSdT, POM, Ollivon, etc add. That's a genuine option on offensive and defensive lineouts. Which changes how you can approach the lineout. I really don't see CCS becoming that sort of jumper. The difference in how often CCS will be a viable option compared to someone like Curry is actually pretty negligible despite being a slightly better jumper.

You can of course play with two strong jumpers and that third useful option on your own ball. It generally means altering your game plan though. Kicking in field far more. If the opposition get on top of your lineout defensive lineout, it often means attacking the breakdown less and slowing line speed as field position combined with having the lineout throw can very quickly spiral if your defensive lineout doesn't stack up. That in particular is an interesting example of balancing tactics as having an extra jumper in the back row (i.e. Chessum at 6) frequently weakens your breakdown threat on paper (i.e. picking Earl, Curry and Underhill in the same back row). Having a weak defensive lineout can then nullify your ability to frequently attack the breakdown as the risk vs reward tips too far towards risk. An interesting example of unintended consequences.

Recent France teams are a good case study there. When they were playing Flament, Woki and Ollivon in the same pack they would kick for touch a bit more, contest the opposition lineout. With Meafou, Willemse or Tuilagi they kick in field far more. Both can work, but, require significant changes in strategy. When predominantly kicking in field, Dupont spends more time in the backfield with Ntamack and Ramos. When kicking for touch more often, Dupont can come up in the d-line, where he's available as an additional jackal threat and, most importantly, to be the first player on hand for a pass from turnover ball. A seemingly small change to the balance of the pack can have a big impact on the tactics everywhere else.

A good England rugby analogy is the difference between a second playmaker such as M Smith or Furbank at 15, compared to Slade at 13. The former is a good enough distributor and kicker that they can play 10 for the best attacks in the Prem. Slade is a useful passing and kicking option who's slightly better than other centres such as Dingwall. Slade has generally barely moved the dial as a playmaker. Whereas a second fly-half in the backline completely alters how you can approach the game ball in hand. That's similar re the difference between useful jumpers like CCS and a 3rd elite option on attack and defence like Chessum or Lawes.

Well noone knows KC...CCS has just turned 21 and a
novice at prem level let alone International. ....Curry is 26.

Few are like Lawes or PSDT...but they're also effectively locks (certainly lock sized) who are exceptional 6s.

He has quite a lineout mentor in Borthwick and I fully expect CCS to become a very strong lineout operator...indeed if its decided he will be the preferred 8 in the near future..adding Ted Hill or possibly Ollie Chessum at 6 suddenly gives you four jumpers.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 23 Jun 2024, 3:09 pm

Nick Isiekwe called up for Ewels

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/23/england-call-nick-isiekwe-charlie-ewels-banned-new-zealand/

by lostinwales Mon 24 Jun 2024, 10:16 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Isiekwe called up for Ewels

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/23/england-call-nick-isiekwe-charlie-ewels-banned-new-zealand/

Is the thinking that Tuima is still too raw/ hass things to work on/ needs a proper pre season?

Isiekwe, despite his very early introduction to international rugby, is a whole lot of 'meh'

by Poorfour Tue 25 Jun 2024, 12:08 am

Isiekwe is so frustrating, because physically he should be a direct replacement for Lawes, but just doesn’t have the impact.

by mountain man Tue 25 Jun 2024, 7:29 am

Isiekwe for me is in same category as Ewels, very good club player but not quite Int standard although same could be said about a few.

by Geordie Tue 25 Jun 2024, 7:54 am

lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Isiekwe called up for Ewels

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/23/england-call-nick-isiekwe-charlie-ewels-banned-new-zealand/

Is the thinking that Tuima is still too raw/ hass things to work on/ needs a proper pre season?

Isiekwe, despite his very early introduction to international rugby, is a whole lot of 'meh'

Tuima is carrying alot of Timber...maybe he needs to improve his fitness for the next level up?

by Geordie Tue 25 Jun 2024, 7:55 am

Poorfour wrote:Isiekwe is so frustrating, because physically he should be a direct replacement for Lawes, but just doesn’t have the impact.

I think Ted Hill is looking more like the 6 replacement now. Isiekwe just never really fulfilled his potential in my eyes.

by formerly known as Sam Tue 25 Jun 2024, 9:04 pm

Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Isiekwe called up for Ewels

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/23/england-call-nick-isiekwe-charlie-ewels-banned-new-zealand/

Is the thinking that Tuima is still too raw/ hass things to work on/ needs a proper pre season?

Isiekwe, despite his very early introduction to international rugby, is a whole lot of 'meh'

Tuima is carrying alot of Timber...maybe he needs to improve his fitness for the next level up?

Possibly his lineout work as well. Isiekwe has quietly become a very handy lineout option.

Not sure Isiekwe is an answer to any long term question but he'll be a solid if unspectacular option in the short term.

Tuima has spent little time in any international squads previously and Ted Hill has spent no time in any squads under Borthwick so far so not surprising they haven't been flown out in short notice with an outside chance of being thrown in the deep end.

by doctor_grey Tue 25 Jun 2024, 11:02 pm

It's an odd thing, but during the Saracens season in the Championship when Isiekwe was with Saints it really appeared that he was ready to break on through. But for whatever reason it just never clicked at that last level for him. Shame.

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 26 Jun 2024, 7:21 am

Squidge Rugby is this week's guest on the Ben Youngs and Dan Cole podcast. It's described as a "tactics special", looking at how international teams play.

https://open.spotify.com/episode/46DVK3Ov3hp6QFxnrRchlq?si=0f2a942d97464320

by Geordie Wed 26 Jun 2024, 8:16 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Isiekwe called up for Ewels

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/23/england-call-nick-isiekwe-charlie-ewels-banned-new-zealand/

Is the thinking that Tuima is still too raw/ hass things to work on/ needs a proper pre season?

Isiekwe, despite his very early introduction to international rugby, is a whole lot of 'meh'

Tuima is carrying alot of Timber...maybe he needs to improve his fitness for the next level up?

Possibly his lineout work as well. Isiekwe has quietly become a very handy lineout option.

Not sure Isiekwe is an answer to any long term question but he'll be a solid if unspectacular option in the short term.

Tuima has spent little time in any international squads previously and Ted Hill has spent no time in any squads under Borthwick so far so not surprising they haven't been flown out in short notice with an outside chance of being thrown in the deep end.

Yeah i think your right Sam, Isiekwe is the obvious one to come in really. Its to replace lock firstly so Hill is out as hes a 6 foremost, and Tuima has quite a bit to work on, but theres a lot of potential there.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 26 Jun 2024, 9:05 am

Geordie wrote:
formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:
lostinwales wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:Nick Isiekwe called up for Ewels

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/23/england-call-nick-isiekwe-charlie-ewels-banned-new-zealand/

Is the thinking that Tuima is still too raw/ hass things to work on/ needs a proper pre season?

Isiekwe, despite his very early introduction to international rugby, is a whole lot of 'meh'

Tuima is carrying alot of Timber...maybe he needs to improve his fitness for the next level up?

Possibly his lineout work as well. Isiekwe has quietly become a very handy lineout option.

Not sure Isiekwe is an answer to any long term question but he'll be a solid if unspectacular option in the short term.

Tuima has spent little time in any international squads previously and Ted Hill has spent no time in any squads under Borthwick so far so not surprising they haven't been flown out in short notice with an outside chance of being thrown in the deep end.

Yeah i think your right Sam, Isiekwe is the obvious one to come in really. Its to replace lock firstly so Hill is out as hes a 6 foremost, and Tuima has quite a bit to work on, but theres a lot of potential there.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Hill in the AI squad, get him bedded in then and maybe a cap before maybe a more serious introduction in the 6N. He's a bit unlucky in that Chessum should be back fit by the start of the season and Courtney Lawes has already talked about him being the closest like for like replacement for him.

by Geordie Wed 26 Jun 2024, 10:01 am

I fully expect to see him in the squad Sam ...IF he continues to perform as he has and continues to improve. As you say Ollie Chessum may well take that 6 spot if its deemed they want a Courtney replacement as close as possible.

SB certainly has some options in the back row...

Lock is a bit more sparce until the youngsters have come through properly...and the front rows...well we've already spoke about them...

by formerly known as Sam Wed 26 Jun 2024, 10:56 am

Geordie wrote:I fully expect to see him in the squad Sam ...IF he continues to perform as he has and continues to improve. As you say Ollie Chessum may well take that 6 spot if its deemed they want a Courtney replacement as close as possible.

SB certainly has some options in the back row...

Lock is a bit more sparce until the youngsters have come through properly...and the front rows...well we've already spoke about them...

Yeah, it'd be no shock to see him back the squad. Be interesting to see what we do at 6 as Borthwick seems to want a lineout jumper there with some added physicality which suits both Chessum and Hill. Chessum does have the advantage of both experience and being able to slot into the second row so we can have the option of two backrow on the bench.

Lock options are fairly short though so perhaps Borthwick would like the ability to free up one of the locks for impact off the bench and Ted Hill will get his shot.

by Geordie Wed 26 Jun 2024, 11:21 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:I fully expect to see him in the squad Sam ...IF he continues to perform as he has and continues to improve. As you say Ollie Chessum may well take that 6 spot if its deemed they want a Courtney replacement as close as possible.

SB certainly has some options in the back row...

Lock is a bit more sparce until the youngsters have come through properly...and the front rows...well we've already spoke about them...

Yeah, it'd be no shock to see him back the squad. Be interesting to see what we do at 6 as Borthwick seems to want a lineout jumper there with some added physicality which suits both Chessum and Hill. Chessum does have the advantage of both experience and being able to slot into the second row so we can have the option of two backrow on the bench.

Lock options are fairly short though so perhaps Borthwick would like the ability to free up one of the locks for impact off the bench and Ted Hill will get his shot.

I think it will be one of Hill or Chessum to be honest...Roots just doesnt quite make it for me. I know KC disagrees with me, but i do think CCS will develop into another good jump option, maybe not a Chessum or Lawes level but a 4th option non the less, not to mention developing in to a powerhouse player for us.

Chessum is going to be interesting actually...is he primarily a lock for Tigers? Or are they considering him a 6 aswell...

by **Rugby Fan** Wed 26 Jun 2024, 11:28 am

Geordie wrote:Chessum is going to be interesting actually...is he primarily a lock for Tigers? Or are they considering him a 6 aswell...

Lewis is reported to be bigger than his brother. Is he also a back row option, or an out-and-out second row?

by king_carlos Wed 26 Jun 2024, 11:57 am

Ollie broke through at 6, then shifted almost entirely to second row. He played one game at 6 for Tigers this season - incidentally it was the Chiefs game in December where Tigers were collectively a bin fire.

Lewis is just a lock from what I've seen. He's also just had an injury disrupted year, so stalled a bit. He's very talented, hopefully bounces back. That 18 to 21-years-old sort of range is a really bad time for forwards who are filling out to get an injury though I tend to think. You develop so quickly in that period with proper S&C. Obviously, an injury stops that to some extent. It feels like Lewis is heading into '24/25 with us hoping he has the season he would've in '23/24. Probably trying to get him game time at Nottingham in the Championship, starting in the PRC and maybe seeing Prem game time if that goes well.

by Geordie Wed 26 Jun 2024, 12:44 pm

I wonder if Kpoku Jr will stich allegiance to France...?

by king_carlos Wed 26 Jun 2024, 1:19 pm

Geordie wrote:I wonder if Kpoku Jr will stich allegiance to France...?

He joined Racing in October '23. 5 year residency now, so he'll have just turned 23 when he qualifies. Not out the question.

I'm still getting over Joel drifting away. He looked so good when he broke into that Sarries second row. Calling lineouts in his first senior season whilst being insanely physical at that age. He played blindside more than lock for Lyon in the season just gone.

by Geordie Wed 26 Jun 2024, 1:44 pm

king_carlos wrote:
Geordie wrote:I wonder if Kpoku Jr will switch allegiance to France...?

He joined Racing in October '23. 5 year residency now, so he'll have just turned 23 when he qualifies. Not out the question.

I'm still getting over Joel drifting away. He looked so good when he broke into that Sarries second row. Calling lineouts in his first senior season whilst being insanely physical at that age. He played blindside more than lock for Lyon in the season just gone.

Yeah Joel is a what if. Had a big first year with Lyon didnt he? Getting rave reviews. Still young though.

by formerly known as Sam Wed 26 Jun 2024, 1:45 pm

king_carlos wrote:Ollie broke through at 6, then shifted almost entirely to second row. He played one game at 6 for Tigers this season - incidentally it was the Chiefs game in December where Tigers were collectively a bin fire.

Lewis is just a lock from what I've seen. He's also just had an injury disrupted year, so stalled a bit. He's very talented, hopefully bounces back. That 18 to 21-years-old sort of range is a really bad time for forwards who are filling out to get an injury though I tend to think. You develop so quickly in that period with proper S&C. Obviously, an injury stops that to some extent. It feels like Lewis is heading into '24/25 with us hoping he has the season he would've in '23/24. Probably trying to get him game time at Nottingham in the Championship, starting in the PRC and maybe seeing Prem game time if that goes well.

Lewis Chessum rocking in at 6ft9 is a bit lad but is definitely a lock, just won't have the mobility of a backrow. He looked gangly at the start of the season whilst weighing in at the same as his big brother so I'd imagine he'll end up near 20 stone. Bad injury has ruled him out for most of the season. He was playing semi pro level for Leicester Lions so will be hoping to get some better experience this season.

Ollie predominantly played lock last season for Tigers but that was mainly because Liebenburg and Weise were available for nearly the whole season post world cup and Cam Henderson picked up a serious injury which ruled him out. Going into the new season Henderson should be back and we might shift Ollie to 6 and Liebenburg to 8 in order to get the best players on the pitch.

by **Rugby Fan** Thu 27 Jun 2024, 5:24 am

Latest England camp video. Filmed while the squad was still in Japan.

by Geordie Wed 10 Jul 2024, 11:21 am

Anyone in the current U20s catching your eye as a potential future Senior player? .

by mountain man Wed 10 Jul 2024, 1:24 pm

Several.
Kpoku, Sodeke, Carnduff, Opuku-Fordjour in forwards. Pollack another possible.
Bracken really sharp in backs.

by Poorfour Wed 10 Jul 2024, 2:36 pm

I'd add Wright, Michelow and Kerr (though last night he was very much bogged down - it was a night for the forwards).

Plus we already know about Opoku-Fordjour, Sela, Fasogbon

by Geordie Wed 10 Jul 2024, 2:56 pm

Do you think Fasogabon will push on? Im not sure...i see as much in him (bar size) as i do with Sela and Opoku

by formerly known as Sam Wed 10 Jul 2024, 6:31 pm

Geordie wrote:Do you think Fasogabon will push on? Im not sure...i see as much in him (bar size) as i do with Sela and Opoku

Fasogbon is a good, mobile carrier as well. He got injured after joining Glaws. We should see more of him this season given Glaws have let Balmain join Sarries and replaced him on the cheap with Alfie Petch.

by Geordie Thu 11 Jul 2024, 8:09 am

formerly known as Sam wrote:
Geordie wrote:Do you think Fasogabon will push on? Im not sure...i see as much in him (bar size) as i do with Sela and Opoku

Fasogbon is a good, mobile carrier as well. He got injured after joining Glaws. We should see more of him this season given Glaws have let Balmain join Sarries and replaced him on the cheap with Alfie Petch.

Ill watch with interest then Sam.

by Geordie Sun 14 Jul 2024, 8:05 am

Well pretty encouraging tour I would say. Definitely a team moving forward.

Baxter 22, CCS 21, George Martin 23....Young lads...and more to come through...

Some questions....Will have been raised with the tour aswell about certain players and positions...bit probably questions we have already asked and SB and his team will be well aware of

by mountain man Sun 14 Jul 2024, 8:33 am

Yeah agree. Would have been nice to get a win but two close games in NZ is some doing. If some of the U20s start getting introduced into senior team that will help as well. Really start the build towards next RWC but of course don't do an Eddie and have it as the one and only goal.
From all I've seen and heard, vast majority of England fans are happy with progress team is making so it seems general consenus is Borthwick does actually know what he's doing.

by Geordie Sun 14 Jul 2024, 8:45 am

Yes...the World Cup can't be the sole goal.

Focus on the next competition....try to win 6n titles and grand slams , beating the Southern teams ...then hopefully the World Cup takes care of itself when it comes along.

by Geordie Sun 14 Jul 2024, 8:59 am

Questions I have....

Hooker: How long will Jamie George go on. Aside from Dan who is there? The Gloucester lad?

Tighthead: We've done it to death...

Locks: Where does a fit and firing Chessum fit in

Back Row: So much talent but getting the right balance will be key...

10: I still think ford is his 1st choice...but who takes over?

12 & 13: Still not convinced on the pairing and balance. But who's going to challenge them?

by mountain man Sun 14 Jul 2024, 9:07 am

Jamie George I think isn't quite player he was, maybe it's fatigue after a long season.
Dan a very able replacement I think and offers more in loose. As you say it's who else.

Locks, I really think Sodeke and Kypoku are next in line. They have the physicality and skills. Not ruling out Chessum but he might be looked at as 6 now more than lock?

Backrow the players are there, England do have strength in depth and these tests will definitely have helped likes of CCS.

10, I still think Marcus is the one. He has the attacking skills and speed needed for England to go to next level to use a terrible cliche.

12 is Lawrence until someone else shows he is better. Freeman to 13 is worth trying. Then we have IFW and Sleightholme on wings.

by Geordie Sun 14 Jul 2024, 9:33 am

Yes agree i think time is now against George.
Seb Blakes the Gloucester lad...

I rate Ollie Chessum highly...but it maybe that he's seen as Lawes replacement at 6. You also have the increasingly consistent Ted Hill.
Do you then move CCS to 8? What about Earl? Our best player for a while now. Does he battle for 7 with Underhill, Curry and the player I think will be outstanding...Guy Pepper?
Does Tom Willis have any hope?
So SB has some thinking to do with his back row.

Centres...Slade is the defensive leader...Ollie the best to move to 12 despite being a 13 also. What Lawrence's defence like...can he lead the defence? I'm not sure..that then puts his spot at threat should Ollie Hartley recover well after his Cruciate ligament injury. You also have Will Joseph on the scene...

Can Chieka get Dan Kelly back on track or will he go to Ireland? If he goes to Ireland will Chieka be tempted to move Steward forward to fill the 12 spot?

by TJ Sun 14 Jul 2024, 9:59 am

What do you guys think of converting Steward to a centre? Saw the idea on the rugby pod and it seems to make sense

by mountain man Sun 14 Jul 2024, 10:22 am

As far as I know he's not played there for Tigers so unless he starts and does regularly then not going to be at 12 for England surely.

This move has been spoken about for a while by fans and a one or two pundits but I've seen nothing from him or anyone in England etc.

In attack he might be fine but it's defence where it'll take time to get up to speed so to speak.

by Geordie Sun 14 Jul 2024, 10:26 am

It's been discussed by England fans on here for a while TJ.

It's certainly an option..size, power, aerial ability, good handling, but its something Tigers will have to be willing to do aswell. He's their player after all and how long would it take for him to learn a new position..

We also have a young player with similar physical proportions at Saracens who got an injury but looks a huge hope...

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 14 Jul 2024, 12:13 pm

England generally won't take the initiative in playing people in positions they don't hold at their clubs. The most obvious exception is Sam Burgess, and the outcome there is well-known.

Ben Foden is the last real example of a back changing his focus. He was a scrum half all his career, and won his first caps there. Sale started playing him on the wing, which he didn't enjoy, and then full-back, which he did. England then started playing him at 15 when he he was still primarily a scrum half. When he moved to Saints, Jim Mallinder originally envisaged he would be a nine.

Foden didn't want to be known as a utility player. Austin Healey probably suffered for being able to cover all positions across the back line, and that was recent history when Foden was coming through. Not sure who ultimately made the call but Foden said he wanted everyone to agree on one position, and he'd commit to it.

Still, there are players who are comfortable at centre and full-back, and that versatility is useful in a World Cup squad. Delon Armitage used to do both, and Elliot Daly still does. Henry Slade can also cover both positions at a pinch. Unlike Steward, they are perhaps more natural footballers, all capable of taking on goalkicking duties.

Realistically, unless Leicester, or another club, gives Steward game time in the centre, the idea won't come to anything.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 14 Jul 2024, 3:48 pm

mountain man wrote:As far as I know he's not played there for Tigers so unless he starts and does regularly then not going to be at 12 for England surely.

This move has been spoken about for a while by fans and a one or two pundits but I've seen nothing from him or anyone in England etc.

In attack he might be fine but it's defence where it'll take time to get up to speed so to speak.

I think Steward came off the bench in a European game in I think his first season and played 13. Was a one off and only 40 mins because there were restrictions over minutes that Manu could play.

He played 13 on loan at Loughborough University as well as 10 and 15 as a schoolboy.

He can kick for goal. Range tends to be variable, can be from halfway or beyond or can be spud gun esque (as Ben Youngs calls it) and fall short.

He's unlikely to play 12 for Tigers who has Dan Kelly and Tonga international Kata. There's also young Joe Woodward coming through who's a classy option that got some experience at Nottingham last season, has played England under 20s previously.

At 13 is more possible. Kelly isn't as effect there though we've signed Aussie international Perese and the Championship 13 dream team selection from last season Will Wand to understudy him. Wand at 22, 6ft2 and nearly 15 stone with more than a bit of speed is one to watch as a potential surprise signing.

Cheika has liked creative options at fullback previously. It will be interesting to see what he does with Steward in terms of mentoring. Certainly having Pete Hewatt on the staff as attack coach should help (former LI 10/15). Steward looked off the pace in the second test but it is worth remembering he hadn't played a game since mid May when the Prem finished. Two months with no game and then starting Vs the ABs in the second test is a tough test.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 14 Jul 2024, 5:42 pm

Telegraph reporting Borthwick's comments on tighthead props.

England will launch an SOS for tighthead props as head coach Steve Borthwick identified the position as his squad’s main Achilles heel following the series defeat by New Zealand.

Among the keys to the All Blacks’ success in both Tests was their dominance of the scrum, with Will Stuart struggling to contain New Zealand loosehead Ethan de Groot. While Borthwick has successfully blooded a number of youngsters into Test rugby this year, including winger Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, flanker Chandler Cunningham-South and prop Fin Baxter, who played 132 minutes across the two Tests, he admits that identifying a long-term successor to Dan Cole at tighthead has become his overriding concern heading into the summer break.

“The England pack has changed from what was traditionally a very big powerful pack to more of a younger, dynamic pack,” Borthwick said. “Clearly we have got to develop at tighthead. As we look forward, that’s one area we have got to look at. You saw yesterday that the scrum was under pressure so that’s an area we have to improve.”

At 28 and with 41 caps, Stuart has not quite kicked on as well as many observers would have hoped while Borthwick cannot indefinitely count on 37-year-old Cole, who became England men’s most-capped forward on Saturday, being available. “I’ll have a conversation with Coley in due course and see what he wants to do,” Borthwick said. “Dan knows how much I value him. His wife certainly knows how important he is to the team. I have had that conversation with her as well.”

With Kyle Sinckler and Will Collier departing for France, England’s tighthead stocks are fairly light after that with the unused Joe Heyes, 25, selected ahead of Northampton’s Trevor Davison, 31, for this tour. Then there’s an emerging generation of bright young things, including Sale’s Asher Opoku-Fordjour, Bath’s Billy Sela and Gloucester’s Afolabi Fasogbon.

When asked if he is tempted to skip a generation, Borthwick said: “Will Stuart has done really well in the last couple of Test matches. The New Zealand scrum is very good and outside the scrum I thought he did many things very well. Part of my next step is to do that kind of planning and decide on the right thing to do. We need results now and we need to be preparing for several years in advance.

“But quite clearly we need to find some more tightheads. If you look at the loosehead side and the people who weren’t here... Ellis Genge, Beno Obano, Joe Marler missed the last Test, Fin Baxter, Bevan Rodd – we’ve got competition. We won’t quite have that on the other side of the scrum. That’s going to be a big development project for myself and Tom Harrison.”

Aside from their scrummaging, England will board their flight back to London on Monday with a number of other regrets at having failed to register a first victory over the All Blacks on New Zealand soil since 2003. In both the first and second Test, they led early in the second half but failed to score in the final 30 minutes of both matches, allowing the All Blacks back into it.

‘I don’t want to revisit mistakes’
While Borthwick was keen to emphasise the relative inexperience of his squad, he also admits they are on a steep learning curve.

“Every one of these has to be a learning experience, I don’t want to revisit mistakes. That is certainly something I don’t want to do, revisit mistakes,” Borthwick said. “We have gone from having 1,200 caps in a match-day squad in the World Cup to yesterday having 675 I think it was in the match-day 23. There’s not as much experience there and there’s a different blend of team in terms of the personnel. What we have got now is a lot of exciting young talent, especially in the back line, who I think want to be positive and aggressive with the ball.”

Central to that positive aggression was fly-half Marcus Smith, who engineered two tries for wings Feyi-Waboso and Tommy Freeman with cross-field kicks. Yet for all his stress on continuity and cohesion, Borthwick stopped short of confirming Smith would be his long-term fly half.

“When George Ford is fully fit we have three incredible fly-halves,” Borthwick said. “I thought Marcus has done some really good things, when you see the ability he has to see space, to create tries, to open up a defence. Getting to the start of the season I’ll want the players to be playing really well, coming into that autumn series. The three of them – Fin Smith, George Ford and Marcus – it’s put us in a pretty enviable position.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/07/14/steve-borthwick-sos-englands-tighthead-prop-crisis/

by doctor_grey Sun 14 Jul 2024, 11:29 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:Telegraph reporting Borthwick's comments on tighthead props.

England will launch an SOS for tighthead props as head coach Steve Borthwick identified the position as his squad’s main Achilles heel following the series defeat by New Zealand.

Among the keys to the All Blacks’ success in both Tests was their dominance of the scrum, with Will Stuart struggling to contain New Zealand loosehead Ethan de Groot. While Borthwick has successfully blooded a number of youngsters into Test rugby this year, including winger Immanuel Feyi-Waboso, flanker Chandler Cunningham-South and prop Fin Baxter, who played 132 minutes across the two Tests, he admits that identifying a long-term successor to Dan Cole at tighthead has become his overriding concern heading into the summer break.

“The England pack has changed from what was traditionally a very big powerful pack to more of a younger, dynamic pack,” Borthwick said. “Clearly we have got to develop at tighthead. As we look forward, that’s one area we have got to look at. You saw yesterday that the scrum was under pressure so that’s an area we have to improve.”

At 28 and with 41 caps, Stuart has not quite kicked on as well as many observers would have hoped while Borthwick cannot indefinitely count on 37-year-old Cole, who became England men’s most-capped forward on Saturday, being available. “I’ll have a conversation with Coley in due course and see what he wants to do,” Borthwick said. “Dan knows how much I value him. His wife certainly knows how important he is to the team. I have had that conversation with her as well.”

With Kyle Sinckler and Will Collier departing for France, England’s tighthead stocks are fairly light after that with the unused Joe Heyes, 25, selected ahead of Northampton’s Trevor Davison, 31, for this tour. Then there’s an emerging generation of bright young things, including Sale’s Asher Opoku-Fordjour, Bath’s Billy Sela and Gloucester’s Afolabi Fasogbon.

When asked if he is tempted to skip a generation, Borthwick said: “Will Stuart has done really well in the last couple of Test matches. The New Zealand scrum is very good and outside the scrum I thought he did many things very well. Part of my next step is to do that kind of planning and decide on the right thing to do. We need results now and we need to be preparing for several years in advance.

“But quite clearly we need to find some more tightheads. If you look at the loosehead side and the people who weren’t here... Ellis Genge, Beno Obano, Joe Marler missed the last Test, Fin Baxter, Bevan Rodd – we’ve got competition. We won’t quite have that on the other side of the scrum. That’s going to be a big development project for myself and Tom Harrison.”

Aside from their scrummaging, England will board their flight back to London on Monday with a number of other regrets at having failed to register a first victory over the All Blacks on New Zealand soil since 2003. In both the first and second Test, they led early in the second half but failed to score in the final 30 minutes of both matches, allowing the All Blacks back into it.

‘I don’t want to revisit mistakes’
While Borthwick was keen to emphasise the relative inexperience of his squad, he also admits they are on a steep learning curve.

“Every one of these has to be a learning experience, I don’t want to revisit mistakes. That is certainly something I don’t want to do, revisit mistakes,” Borthwick said. “We have gone from having 1,200 caps in a match-day squad in the World Cup to yesterday having 675 I think it was in the match-day 23. There’s not as much experience there and there’s a different blend of team in terms of the personnel. What we have got now is a lot of exciting young talent, especially in the back line, who I think want to be positive and aggressive with the ball.”

Central to that positive aggression was fly-half Marcus Smith, who engineered two tries for wings Feyi-Waboso and Tommy Freeman with cross-field kicks. Yet for all his stress on continuity and cohesion, Borthwick stopped short of confirming Smith would be his long-term fly half.

“When George Ford is fully fit we have three incredible fly-halves,” Borthwick said. “I thought Marcus has done some really good things, when you see the ability he has to see space, to create tries, to open up a defence. Getting to the start of the season I’ll want the players to be playing really well, coming into that autumn series. The three of them – Fin Smith, George Ford and Marcus – it’s put us in a pretty enviable position.”
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/07/14/steve-borthwick-sos-englands-tighthead-prop-crisis/

For me, still unsure who would be considered England's best, or preferred, 10. Obviously not Fin with such minimal game time, but Marcus or Ford? Ford likely won't make it to the next RWC (an older player with recent injury history) so emphasis given to Marcus? Maybe Fin gets a start in one of the Autumn matches, Australia perhaps?

By the by, I would like to see Marcus stand deeper at times to give him a bit more room to run.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 9:33 am

I still think Ford is his go to at 10.

by hugehandoff Mon 15 Jul 2024, 9:35 am

Whilst England have clearly progressed since the Scotland 6Ns performance we clearly still have many problems to solve. Tighthead is the main one and Cole will be pressured to keep playing for now. We have no obvious solutions for the Autumn. And then the midfield and especially 12 has not worked. I think we stick with Ollie and Slade as there are no better alternatives, but maybe one day we find a proper 12? Get these 2 problems solved and England can really transition into a winning team. I would also like to see Chessum at 6 as he is quality and move CCS to 8 with Earl at 7. And as well as our new ability to score tries in the backs we need to restore our ability to score catch and drive tries from the line out which seems to have eluded us.

by mountain man Mon 15 Jul 2024, 10:04 am

Geordie wrote:I still think Ford is his go to at 10.

Ford is a really good player and has the game management others may not yet but is he the one to take England forward? The blueprint of England of old of forward dominance, kicks goals and get field position isn't enough any more at highest level. SA match or better for power up front, NZ have forward power and back play to cut any team open. Ireland although possibly on a slight decline from a massive high point are still excellent all around so I think England to beat very best teams need points of difference and likes of Marcus are it.

Whilst I want to see England take every game seriously and ideally win every game, ultimately the goal at end is next RWC. Will Ford be starting 10 then? I'm not advocating dropping him never to return but the team needs to be built around the key positions and 10 is one of them.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 10:09 am

hugehandoff wrote:Whilst England have clearly progressed since the Scotland 6Ns performance we clearly still have many problems to solve. Tighthead is the main one and Cole will be pressured to keep playing for now. We have no obvious solutions for the Autumn. And then the midfield and especially 12 has not worked. I think we stick with Ollie and Slade as there are no better alternatives, but maybe one day we find a proper 12? Get these 2 problems solved and England can really transition into a winning team. I would also like to see Chessum at 6 as he is quality and move CCS to 8 with Earl at 7. And as well as our new ability to score tries in the backs we need to restore our ability to score catch and drive tries from the line out which seems to have eluded us.

Well its nice to be in a position where we have lots of problems to fix after losing a two series in NZ by 8 points over all....shows how much progress we have made....

Back row is a big headache in a positive way. Some genuine quality options all over...only 3 spots.

by Geordie Mon 15 Jul 2024, 10:17 am

mountain man wrote:
Geordie wrote:I still think Ford is his go to at 10.

Ford is a really good player and has the game management others may not yet but is he the one to take England forward? The blueprint of England of old of forward dominance, kicks goals and get field position isn't enough any more at highest level. SA match or better for power up front, NZ have forward power and back play to cut any team open. Ireland although possibly on a slight decline from a massive high point are still excellent all around so I think England to beat very best teams need points of difference and likes of Marcus are it.

Whilst I want to see England take every game seriously and ideally win every game, ultimately the goal at end is next RWC. Will Ford be starting 10 then? I'm not advocating dropping him never to return but the team needs to be built around the key positions and 10 is one of them.

No i dont think so...

Maybe Marcus has made that his positon now...but i wonder if SB still has a few question Markus about him. It maybe that Fin Smith leaps Marcus.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 15 Jul 2024, 10:28 am

BBC:

England were chasing a converted try that would have levelled the match in the closing seconds, and George questioned a decision by referee Nic Berry and his team of officials to penalise England from a line-out drive in the final minute, which brought an end to the match.

The Saracens hooker said of the decision: "I think it's wrong. If you're looking for infringements, I think there is an infringement in the maul first.

"The reason why we had to go round the outside was because they had sacked a live maul in the middle.

"I am also short of the line and the ball is on the floor so the play must go on. I think there are a lot of bad decisions in that," added George, who later said he accepted that it was a "difficult decision" for the officials.

Borthwick said the call was "not one to dwell upon now" as it may "take away from what was an excellent Test match", while New Zealand head coach Scott Robertson said: "When you slowed it down, it got pretty clear. Most things slowed down in rugby become clear."

George really is focusing on the wrong thing. Lack of cutting edge and a scrum slowly disintegrating the more chance Harrison has to work with them are the issues. Either Borthwick replaces his old mates quickly or we slump into another disappointing 6Ns.

by Sponsored content