England - The Next Episode: Part Deux: Phoenix from the Ashes

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Net up...Summer Tour to NZ...and a game v Japan

doctor_grey wrote:

king_carlos wrote:

Poorfour wrote:Borthwick can issue 25 contracts and has only issued 17 so far. You’d expect that to end up being something close to a match day XXIII with extra cover in a couple of positions.

I imagine he’s holding back some contracts to see how people come through the AIs, but I’d expect a second wave once the matches are completed.

There’s also a question of how to use the contracts strategically. I assume they are annual contracts, but the main benefits they give for England is greater say over the selected players’ match time and development and a big incentive for the player to stay in England.

Given Borthwick only has a limited number of contracts to give, I’d expect him to focus on players who are either absolutely critical to the squad (e.g. the fly halves), where they want to ensure their fitness is managed properly (e.g. Mitchell) or where there is “flight risk”.

Dan may fall into that last category: he’s seen as the successor to George, and they want to incentivise him to stay in England and work on the stuff they want him to work on, while playing second fiddle at club level.

Some rumours that the RFU would rather all 25 weren't awarded to save money. In fairness, they do need to invest a f**k ton into making Twickenham still the worst stadium in the Six Nations. It will be a terrible stadium with a roof that's less likely to cave in though. Small victories.

These 17 deals aren't a million miles off a looking like what's potentially the full strength starting XV, plus extras in key positions. So the suggestion of matchday 23, plus extras in key positions would make sense down the line. If they award the full 25 deals.

1.Genge 2.George 3. 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.Chessum 7.Curry 8.Earl
9.Mitchell 10.Ford 11.Freeman 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.IFW 15.Furbank

Then, Marcus is second choice 10 and maybe second choice 15 as well if that second playmaker becomes more integral. Dan is the clear reserve hooker - key position. Finn is Ford's back up - key position.

Thanks for sharing, mate.  This is just too RFU.  They negotiate 25 places but only fill 17.  Then they don't publish the rules.  What are the players agreeing to?  I wonder what is included in the player contracts.  

Now perhaps there are good reasons for this, but the track record at the RFU isn't great when it comes to developing or managing the game in England.  What do you think?

The players and the clubs know what they are agreeing to but as usual transparency to the public is lacking.

Makes sense to not rush into filling all 25 spaces, you don't want annual turnover to be high in those contracts as it'll make a mess or players' and clubs' financial planning. You want those contracts to be valid for two years at a time. Leaving space to help tie down those that need it is a good move.

Who do we think will be called up for Chessum if he is ruled out? Main speculation is Ted Hill, Tom Pearson or Tom Willis.

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think will be called up for Chessum if he is ruled out? Main speculation is Ted Hill, Tom Pearson or Tom Willis.

Alex Coles from Saints is the closest thing to a like for like and was in the summer tour squad. He's a lock first and backrow second. The other options are entirely backrow or backrow who can cover lock in an emergency like Hill or Roots.

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think will be called up for Chessum if he is ruled out? Main speculation is Ted Hill, Tom Pearson or Tom Willis.

My olde man saw Phil Vickery in training the other day. He was overheard saying 'front row, second row, they ain't heavier than a cow'

If Chessum is out Ted Hill I'd say

doctor_grey wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:Who do we think will be called up for Chessum if he is ruled out? Main speculation is Ted Hill, Tom Pearson or Tom Willis.

My olde man saw Phil Vickery in training the other day.  He was overheard saying 'front row, second row, they ain't heavier than a cow'

Just to spite us all, Phil Vickery actually looks like this these days (on the right)

https://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/1947408/Phil-Vickery-body-transformation-England-rugby

Ted Hill and Alex Coles are in the new squad:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cwyxx2yv9pyo

Mr Bounce wrote:Ted Hill and Alex Coles are in the new squad:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cwyxx2yv9pyo

At the expense of Chessum (knee) and Ewels (head knock)

Roebuck also drops out

lostinwales wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Ted Hill and Alex Coles are in the new squad:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cwyxx2yv9pyo

At the expense of Chessum (knee) and Ewels (head knock)

Roebuck also drops out

I hadn't seen that Roebuck was out as well. Is he injured too, or just not retained?

Mr Bounce wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:Ted Hill and Alex Coles are in the new squad:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/articles/cwyxx2yv9pyo

At the expense of Chessum (knee) and Ewels (head knock)

Roebuck also drops out

I hadn't seen that Roebuck was out as well. Is he injured too, or just not retained?

Out of form and they want Ford back in. Given we've got three good wingers plus Daly and Slade looking actually fit and ready to go.

Have to say I also didn't think Roebuck was good enough anyway and was surprised he was included in original squad. Better options available in my opinion.

Squad looks better suited for all thrown at it now with Coles and hill although chessum is a massive loss. Hopefully borthwick can start to get some combos sorted asap. Centre combo is our biggest problem.

mountain man wrote:Have to say I also didn't think Roebuck was good enough anyway and was surprised he was included in original squad. Better options available in my opinion.

His form last season was excellent (10 tries in 18 Prem games, 12 games in 25 games all in all). He's big, he's quick, a good finisher and he's great under the high ball (particularly on the chase). This season his form has been poor and even then he's still got 4 tries in 5 games. He's only 23 so still time to bounce back and be a hit but with Sleightholme, IFW and Freeman all in the squad we are realistically covered.

I like the back three selection. Freeman, IFW and Sleightholme seem very reasonably and exciting first three picks. Furbank looks locked in at 15. Steward offers a tactical difference as second choice with Marcus able to cover as a playmaking 15. Then Daly is a utility back and really good tactical kicking option.

Roebuck would definitely be in the hunt for fourth specialist wing if I'm picking though. Murley also in around there. Roebuck gives me slight Kyle Steyn vibes, in a good way. I think Steyn's a cracking player. Not as dangerous as Duhan or Darcy Graham but he knocks out good performances week in, week out.

It's good timing for Coles to return from injury with Chessum injured. Still a massive blow to lose Chess though. He's a big step up on Coles in terms of physicality at present.

Hill ahead of Roots is nice to see. Interesting that he's ahead of Pearson. That suggests to me that Chessum was likely being looked at as a blindside option.

That injury does make selection feel somewhat easier to call, a couple of 50/50s apart. Itoje and Martin starting. Coles on the bench seems very likely now. That lends itself to the back row seen in NZ.

1.Genge 2.George 3.Cole 4.Itoje 5.Martin 6.CCS 7.Underhill 8.Earl
9.Spencer 10.Ford 11.Freeman 12.Lawrence 13.Slade 14.IFW 15.Furbank

16.Dan 17.Baxter/Marler 18.Stuart 19.Coles 20.T Curry 21.JvP/Randall 22.M Smith 23.Daly

Obviously, if Ford isn't quite ready than Marcus will likely start and Finn comes onto the bench. It's good seeing some continuity building in selection. Mitchell and Chessum are massive injury blows though.

king_carlos wrote:I like the back three selection. Freeman, IFW and Sleightholme seem very reasonably and exciting first three picks. Furbank looks locked in at 15. Steward offers a tactical difference as second choice with Marcus able to cover as a playmaking 15. Then Daly is a utility back and really good tactical kicking option.

Roebuck would definitely be in the hunt for fourth specialist wing if I'm picking though. Murley also in around there. Roebuck gives me slight Kyle Steyn vibes, in a good way. I think Steyn's a cracking player. Not as dangerous as Duhan or Darcy Graham but he knocks out good performances week in, week out.

It's good timing for Coles to return from injury with Chessum injured. Still a massive blow to lose Chess though. He's a big step up on Coles in terms of physicality at present.

Hill ahead of Roots is nice to see. Interesting that he's ahead of Pearson. That suggests to me that Chessum was likely being looked at as a blindside option.

That injury does make selection feel somewhat easier to call, a couple of 50/50s apart. Itoje and Martin starting. Coles on the bench seems very likely now. That lends itself to the back row seen in NZ.

.

I have only seen the highlights, but Pearson looked so good against Bristol, two of Saints tries came from Pearson breaking through the defence and passing to the try scorer in space to score. TNT Sport gave him a rating of 9, the best forward on the pitch. He also adds versatility being able to play across the back row at a good level. I wouldn't put Turry in the same league as him at the moment.

I'm a big Pearson fan, WPI. So much potential in his carrying. With Earl, CCS and Martin, England do finally have some other carrying punch though. Pearson's conditioning did clearly need to improve looking at his performance in the RWC warmups against Wales. I desperately wanted Pearson in that RWC squad from his Prem form. Then he faded drastically and early following a promising start against Wales. I think that area of his game has improved though.

I'd have picked Pearson and Tom Willis ahead of Dombrandt and Ben Curry, as said after the first squad. Burry has been in really good form though in fairness. I also think that Burry might be viewed as an Underhill understudy. I.e. defensively focused openside.

The back row selection feels a bit like they're looking at clearly identified roles. Physical blindside options - CCS and now Ted Hill with Chessum injured. Defensive opensides - Underhill and Burry. Attacking 8s - Earl and Dombrandt. I may not agree with the Dombrandt selection, I don't rate him at the top level at all, but, if he's being picked, that is the category of 8 he fits into.

That there is why I think they're persevering with Turry through injury. At his best, he's good enough to fill several of roles at once. His dominant tackling is on Underhill's level. His line speed up there with Itoje or Earl. His carrying through contact similar Martin. His ruck work as good as any of the opensides. His work rate is insane. He has an all round ability that few options do. We have lots of good back row options but they have clear areas of strength and weakness. At Turry's best, he doesn't really have the weaknesses. Whether he'll get back there due to that horrid hip issue is a big question. I think I'd be persevering too. It is a gamble but one worth taking IMO given how good he can be at his best. He was very good in the latter stages of the RWC whilst nursing that hip injury pre surgery. So, he has performed since it started affecting him. All we've seen of him post surgery was the bench apps in Japan and NZ. He wasn't at his best there but I wouldn't drop him due to it. I rate Pearson, but in a gamble between getting Tom back to his best or giving Pearson more game time, I'd stick with Tom too just now. I can understand fans who lean the other way though. There's merits to both calls there I think.

Pollock is my latest back row fetish though. Pearson can step aside. The Northampton Kwagga Smith is in town. I really do think Pollock might debut for the senior side relatively soon. With how integral Ben Earl is becoming, having someone with similar dynamism in the squad could be so useful. That hold up of Gus Warr was the latest example. He's got an athleticism that few have. Serious player.

Nothing against Turry KC, when fit, a magnificent player, but he isn't. I have no problems with SB having a word in his ear and telling him that when / if he gets back to his fit best he is the starting 7, we haven't got anyone who is as good as he was. But carrying him through the squad taking up a place that could bee filled by a younger player gaining experience, that I have an issue with. Have him training with the squad if Sale allow, great but not taking a competitive place until he deserves it on form.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

mountain man wrote:Have to say I also didn't think Roebuck was good enough anyway and was surprised he was included in original squad. Better options available in my opinion.

His form last season was excellent (10 tries in 18 Prem games, 12 games in 25 games all in all). He's big, he's quick, a good finisher and he's great under the high ball (particularly on the chase). This season his form has been poor and even then he's still got 4 tries in 5 games. He's only 23 so still time to bounce back and be a hit but with Sleightholme, IFW and Freeman all in the squad we are realistically covered.

But this squad should be picked on form of this season not in last or reputation which was what Jones always did.
Feyi-Waboso Sleightholme and Freeman rightly ahead of Roebuck.
As you say, time in his side so see how he goes next year or so.
Wing isn't a concern of course. It's front row and centres specifically 12 which is.

king_carlos wrote:I'm a big Pearson fan, WPI. So much potential in his carrying. With Earl, CCS and Martin, England do finally have some other carrying punch though. Pearson's conditioning did clearly need to improve looking at his performance in the RWC warmups against Wales. I desperately wanted Pearson in that RWC squad from his Prem form. Then he faded drastically and early following a promising start against Wales. I think that area of his game has improved though.

I'd have picked Pearson and Tom Willis ahead of Dombrandt and Ben Curry, as said after the first squad. Burry has been in really good form though in fairness. I also think that Burry might be viewed as an Underhill understudy. I.e. defensively focused openside.

The back row selection feels a bit like they're looking at clearly identified roles. Physical blindside options - CCS and now Ted Hill with Chessum injured. Defensive opensides - Underhill and Burry. Attacking 8s - Earl and Dombrandt. I may not agree with the Dombrandt selection, I don't rate him at the top level at all, but, if he's being picked, that is the category of 8 he fits into.

That there is why I think they're persevering with Turry through injury. At his best, he's good enough to fill several of roles at once. His dominant tackling is on Underhill's level. His line speed up there with Itoje or Earl. His carrying through contact similar Martin. His ruck work as good as any of the opensides. His work rate is insane. He has an all round ability that few options do. We have lots of good back row options but they have clear areas of strength and weakness. At Turry's best, he doesn't really have the weaknesses. Whether he'll get back there due to that horrid hip issue is a big question. I think I'd be persevering too. It is a gamble but one worth taking IMO given how good he can be at his best. He was very good in the latter stages of the RWC whilst nursing that hip injury pre surgery. So, he has performed since it started affecting him. All we've seen of him post surgery was the bench apps in Japan and NZ. He wasn't at his best there but I wouldn't drop him due to it. I rate Pearson, but in a gamble between getting Tom back to his best or giving Pearson more game time, I'd stick with Tom too just now. I can understand fans who lean the other way though. There's merits to both calls there I think.

Pollock is my latest back row fetish though. Pearson can step aside. The Northampton Kwagga Smith is in town. I really do think Pollock might debut for the senior side relatively soon. With how integral Ben Earl is becoming, having someone with similar dynamism in the squad could be so useful. That hold up of Gus Warr was the latest example. He's got an athleticism that few have. Serious player.

What about Guy Pepper? He looks freakishly good as well.

hugehandoff wrote:What about Guy Pepper? He looks freakishly good as well.

He seemed to be in a lot of pain when he went off against Sale. Reports said it was his ankle.

Pepper's going to be a fantastic openside but I'd rate him just behind a few others currently. I think Ben Curry has that bit more physicality at the moment as a defensive openside to back up Underhill. I'd say Pearson is at a similar level to Pepper defensively but offers more as a carrier currently too.

Pollock and Pepper are the two young flankers that I'm most excited about though. Both strike me as players who could be very good across the board, as opposed to having clear strengths but also weaker areas, which is the case with a few of the current back row options as discussed above.

Ardie Savea and Tamati Ellison on facing England

England |Team announced early (Torygraph)

15. George Furbank (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
14. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso (Exeter Chiefs, 6 caps)
13. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 65 caps)
12. Ollie Lawrence (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
11. Tommy Freeman (Northampton Saints, 11 caps)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 35 caps)
9. Ben Spencer (Bath Rugby, 6 caps)

1. Ellis Genge (Bristol Bears, 62 caps) – vice-captain
2. Jamie George (Saracens, 93 caps) – captain
3. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 41 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 84 caps) – vice-captain
5. George Martin (Leicester Tigers, 15 caps)
6. Chandler Cunningham-South (Harlequins, 7 caps)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, 53 caps)
8. Ben Earl (Saracens, 33 caps) – vice-captain

Replacements:

16. Theo Dan (Saracens, 14 caps)
17. Fin Baxter (Harlequins, 2 caps)
18. Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 115 caps)
19. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 11 caps)
20. Ben Curry (Sale Sharks, 5 caps)
21. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 17 caps)
22. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 7 caps)
23. George Ford (Sale Sharks, 96 caps) – vice captain.

10 -15 as expected, Spencer 9 / Randall 22 a bit of a shock, though JvP was favourite to start. Not sure about either Curry being in the 23, ones not fit and the other not as good as the other options, Dombrandt again, I thought we had seen the last of that donkey.

I can't see that side worrying the ABs that much

We have shown a consistent ability to lose matches we are in control of in the final quarter. I worry that we might not even get into that position this Saturday. But if we do then how does our bench look? Dan, Baxter, Cole, Isiekwe, B Curry, Dombrandt, Randall, Ford. Firstly I hope we don't just replace players by wrote. If Marcus is playing well then leave him on. I fear that Borthers wants Ford as a finisher/closer out of games, but he is undercooked himself? I just don't see the quality in our bench forwards to frighten anyone let alone the ABs. In fact one of the weaker benches ever.

We know that our scrummaging is suspect and we just pray that Genge and Stuart can do a decent job. I think that the fact that just 1 prop, Genge, received a central contract shows that even Borthwick acknowledges that our props are pretty poor. I think he, and we, are all praying that Fasogbon and Opoku-Fordjour develop nicely in their first year of premiership rugby and become contenders next season. Hopefully Baxter continues to develop as well as he could be decent. I am happy to see him on the bench over Marler for those reasons.

There's little point offering Cole or Marler a central contract given they're unlikely to make it to RWC 2027. Stuart could be overtaken by Opoku-Fordjour or one of a number of up and coming tightheads. Baxter is already better than Marler in pretty much every respect bar experience (and a better scrummager than Genge), but he's 2 caps into his career and I suspect Borthwick wants to see a bit more of him before committing. He deserves his place on the bench, though.

Dan, Baxter and Cole makes a decent replacement front row, though, and one that can stabilise the scrum if it's faltering or turn the screw if England have a nudge.

There is presumably some sort of strategy in the choice of the other replacement forwards, but I suspect it will be a surprise on the day. It loses some power to the starters but is a bit more mobile and offers options in broken field play. It looks like it's might have been chosen for a game that they expect to open up in the final quarter.

Poorfour wrote:There's little point offering Cole or Marler a central contract given they're unlikely to make it to RWC 2027. Stuart could be overtaken by Opoku-Fordjour or one of a number of up and coming tightheads. Baxter is already better than Marler in pretty much every respect bar experience (and a better scrummager than Genge), but he's 2 caps into his career and I suspect Borthwick wants to see a bit more of him before committing. He deserves his place on the bench, though.

Dan, Baxter and Cole makes a decent replacement front row, though, and one that can stabilise the scrum if it's faltering or turn the screw if England have a nudge.

There is presumably some sort of strategy in the choice of the other replacement forwards, but I suspect it will be a surprise on the day. It loses some power to the starters but is a bit more mobile and offers options in broken field play. It looks like it's might have been chosen for a game that they expect to open up in the final quarter.

That would make some sense with Randall joining the fray if he does.

I think there's a lot of emphasis on the negatives here - in the summer many people gave us no chance in the Kiwis' backyard, yet we only lost by 1 and 7 points. We're at home, following on from beating the Irish in our last game at HQ. I actually think that Borthwick will have been working on specific plans to combat the ABs - it is likely to be close. If we surprise them with early scores, and keep the pressure on, this is winnable.

Nobody gave us a chance in the 2019 Semi either.

Our Centre combo is still the 'big' issue in my opinion.

Geordie wrote:Our Centre combo is still the 'big' issue in my opinion.  

People said the same in 2019 with Farrell at 12.

Spencer at 9? Is the plan to bore the ABs into submission?

Mr Bounce wrote:

Geordie wrote:Our Centre combo is still the 'big' issue in my opinion.  

People said the same in 2019 with Farrell at 12.

And they were right....

Geordie wrote:Our Centre combo is still the 'big' issue in my opinion.  

I'd disagree. The bench is a HUGE issue currently. There's very little impact and no real carrying threat at international level bar maybe Dan. It means we are likely to be desperately holding on going into the end of the game and hoping Ford can work his magic to control things.

Starting Spencer is hoping desperately that he can play like he does for Bath despite recent evidence to the contrary on the international stage.

If I try to be positive then.....

Our 2nd row looks very strong. Martin and Itoje can certainly impose themselves on most teams and hopefully will on Sat.

I do support the elements of continuity that we have in selection. We have chopped and changed so many times previously and Borthwick is trying to establish some continuity which is vital. I don't mind Slade being thrown in albeit I would have welcomed a back up on the bench. Slade and Lawrence are still trying to establish their partnership but at least they have a chance whereas starting a new player against such quality backs would have been very risky. The back 3 have played a couple of games together now and look really threatening and I look forward to hopefully seeing them unleashed.

I think the back row will be key. Turnover ball and the speed of the ball. A real battle as usual, but if we can gain parity here then England could go well. I live in Paris and am making my way over for this and I just hope that the return Eurostar journey at 0800 on Sunday is one where I can revel in the Sunday papers and not just have to concentrate on the USA election and the budget.

Are England playing an extra game this autumn?

Btw, Marler is really boring now

England have 4 autumn matches, other home nations have 3 I think?
As for Marler, he's obviously been to Eddie Jones school of diplomacy.

Yeah Wales have 3 games, and our first is the 10th.

I think Ireland have 4. New Zealand, Fiji, Argentina and Australia

The official window is three weeks. Unions with more control on player release often squeeze in 4 games for revenue. Hence England and Ireland having the extra fixture.

Player release isn't an issue this time of year for many SH sides, so they are happy for the extra revenue too. The ABs are playing 5 games including the Japan trip. Australia, Fiji and Japan are all playing 4. SA on the other hand are just playing the 3 games in the release window now they're in the URC.

Scotland went with the extra fixture outside the window against Fiji and will have to do without Russell and Blairhorn in particular. Fiji will arguably be worse depleted though by the same issue. Nayacalevu, Tuisova and Radrada. Eroni Mawi, Sam Matavesi and Luke Tagi. Just off the top of my head, that's their strongest centre pairings and first choice front row gone. It'll basically be a Drua team against Scotland at the weekend. Due to the general financial issues in Fijian rugby they're missing players for the whole AIs anyway. Peceli Yato sadly hasn't play a test in years. Lekima Tagitagivalu was excellent for them at the RWC, is conspicuously absent from their squad for the whole AIs despite playing every week for Pau. Levani Botia and Billy Mata are injured as well. That's a lot of back row fire power absent.

Anyone following how the England boys in France are doing? Sinckler, Ludlam, Ribbans, Jack Willis, Faz, Arundell, Kpoku, Lawes, May and no doubt a few others? Anyone that would really make a difference to our current team?

hugehandoff wrote:Anyone following how the England boys in France are doing? Sinckler, Ludlam, Ribbans, Jack Willis, Faz, Arundell, Kpoku, Lawes, May and no doubt a few others? Anyone that would really make a difference to our current team?

Jack Willis is playing well but has picked up a little injury this season. Lots of opensides though.

Kpoku would be a great one to bring back seeing as we badly need some additional strength in depth at lock and he looks like he could be a real talent (a big one as well). The rest not so much.

Faz has largely been doing Faz things but in a hit and miss Racing side. He scored a smart opportunist try, then got yellow carded for a dumb shove last weekend. Racing's narrative has largely been around the odd Dan Lancaster being picked by his dad situation that I've mentioned here previously.

Sinckler is apparently playing really well at Toulon. He's not the dynamic carrier he once was, as has been the case ever since the back injury, but he's solid at the scrum and his defensive work rate remains insane for a TH. He got yellow carded for something Ludlam did at the weekend. Which is ridiculous. Sincks was stood next to the ruck that Ludlam got pinged at!

Ludlam has been in and out a strong Toulon back row. Ribbans has been very consistent for them this season and last. Similar to what he did at Saints really.

Lawes has been playing well at lock and flanker for a Brive side who realistically should be aiming for promotion from ProD2. I reckon he'll still be in with a shout for the Lions squad if Farrell goes down the lineout option at 6 route. Which I could see them doing.

Arundell is exclusively playing left wing at Racing now. In fact, most his pro career is now on the wing. Some of the defensive reads he makes are still diabolical. He has a real tendency to get narrow and flat footed from what I've seen. It is improving though. Definitely better than when he left the Prem. Similar with kick chase. Which was astonishingly poor at times for someone so fast. He's far more active there. I actually think Arundell could suit the blitz defence really well if he returns to England. It's a system that lends itself to wingers who can turn on a dime and accelerate very fast. Kolbe and Arendse are brilliant at it. They are also both far better defenders than Arundell generally though.

Junior Kpoku has started 6 Top 14 games for Racing. Which is nuts for a 19-year-old lock at that standard. A real prospect. Joel is in and out the Pau side, being solid but nothing spectacular.

May's very much winding down in ProD2. He's not got the pace he once had but his positioning, kick chase, high ball work, etc are very good indeed. End career Keith Earls vibes.

formerly known as Sam wrote:The England A side will be an interesting selection. There's a lot of young players doing good things in the Prem this season.

Charlie Morgan in the Telegraph reckons that squad will be announced tomorrow. Also believes Bristol trio Oghre, Batley & Ibitoye are in contention.

Batley makes some sense. He's big and physical. They need more of those sorts of second rows. The locks after Itoje, Chess and Martin are wide open, there's a massive drop off. It felt like Coles had become a clear 4th choice. Now Isiekwe is ahead of him and he's never impressed consistently at international level. I honestly struggle to see Batley as an international lock. He's the sort of player who offers something different to Coles, Isiekwe and Ewels given his size though. I'd hope that Chunya Munga and Rus Tuima are also in their thoughts there.

I really hope that Pollock is included. I'd love to see Fasogbon involved on the bench. Maybe Asher Opoku-Fordjour if released? Any of Rodd, Obano, Iyogun and Haffar could reasonably be thereabouts at LH though.

Quirke is meant to be due back soon. It'd be great to see him involved. Hendy and Hodge seem likely somewhere in the back three.

Of those in France, not sure why the continual fuss on forums about not being able to select overseas players. Farrell ruled himself out, May retired from Int as has Lawes, Ludlum is a loss as I rated him but I do recall on here a lot didn't, Arundell incredibly exciting player but is he better than current wings? No and his defence and workrate needs improving aside from fact he left for money which is his right of course. He's young and will return a better player.
Sinckler has been a shadow of his former self when he was in Eng playing last couple years. Really wasted his talent. He's knuckling down and improving away from here so maybe he'll return a better player. There was a good interview in Times other week with him and he admits he blew it in Eng. Still time though.

So, overall I don't think England are missing out too much. There's enough talent available if selected in Premiership. If selected being key phrase.

I feel that Marchant and Jack Willis are the only two we're really missing, and Willis plays in such a competitive position, there are a number of players who can do well there: both Curry brothers, Earl (if not at 8), Underhill, Pearson, Pepper and Pollock are all good shouts in the 7 shirt. I know he's regarded as pretty special but is there really such a drop off in talent between him and the others on top form? I'm not so sure.

Marchant IS a miss in my eyes - he was the most talented 13 we had, being both quick and elusive, and having a good rugby brain. It'll be interesting if he comes back into the Premiership next season after his contract is up. That game against the Boks where he was selected at 14, then went to 13 after the injury to Manu, with Slade moving to 12 was an unexpected yet pretty good partnership. The man has talent.

As for this weekend's centre partnership, it seems that England either play a fly half at 12 (Wilkinson, Flood, Hodgson, Farrell) or a 13 at 12 (Slade, Lawrence, Tuilagi, Tindall). WHY ARE THERE NO ACTUAL 12s??!! Hopefully Lennox Anyanwu will develop into the sort of player we've been missing...

Mr Bounce wrote:I feel that Marchant and Jack Willis are the only two we're really missing, and Willis plays in such a competitive position, there are a number of players who can do well there: both Curry brothers, Earl (if not at 8), Underhill, Pearson, Pepper and Pollock are all good shouts in the 7 shirt. I know he's regarded as pretty special but is there really such a drop off in talent between him and the others on top form? I'm not so sure.

Marchant IS a miss in my eyes - he was the most talented 13 we had, being both quick and elusive, and having a good rugby brain. It'll be interesting if he comes back into the Premiership next season after his contract is up. That game against the Boks where he was selected at 14, then went to 13 after the injury to Manu, with Slade moving to 12 was an unexpected yet pretty good partnership. The man has talent.

As for this weekend's centre partnership, it seems that England either play a fly half at 12 (Wilkinson, Flood, Hodgson, Farrell) or a 13 at 12 (Slade, Lawrence, Tuilagi, Tindall). WHY ARE THERE NO ACTUAL 12s??!! Hopefully Lennox Anyanwu will develop into the sort of player we've been missing...

Marchant would be a handy player to get back. Hopefully soon after his spell in France has finished. He'd add a possible alternative option to Slade at 13 and there would be a decent balance to him and Lawrence in the centres.

Lennox is likely to be developing at Montpellier so unlikely to trouble England further. Why he'd opt for that toxic environment I'm not sure but that's the rumours. We've got lots of inside centre options coming through, the England A selection next week will be enlightening.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Lennox is likely to be developing at Montpellier so unlikely to trouble England further. Why he'd opt for that toxic environment I'm not sure but that's the rumours. We've got lots of inside centre options coming through, the England A selection next week will be enlightening.

I had no idea he was off to France. That's a shame - he seemed to be developing nicely, and in a position that England have struggled with filling.

Why can we not seem to be able to produce a decent 12?

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Mr Bounce wrote:I feel that Marchant and Jack Willis are the only two we're really missing, and Willis plays in such a competitive position, there are a number of players who can do well there: both Curry brothers, Earl (if not at 8), Underhill, Pearson, Pepper and Pollock are all good shouts in the 7 shirt. I know he's regarded as pretty special but is there really such a drop off in talent between him and the others on top form? I'm not so sure.

Marchant IS a miss in my eyes - he was the most talented 13 we had, being both quick and elusive, and having a good rugby brain. It'll be interesting if he comes back into the Premiership next season after his contract is up. That game against the Boks where he was selected at 14, then went to 13 after the injury to Manu, with Slade moving to 12 was an unexpected yet pretty good partnership. The man has talent.

As for this weekend's centre partnership, it seems that England either play a fly half at 12 (Wilkinson, Flood, Hodgson, Farrell) or a 13 at 12 (Slade, Lawrence, Tuilagi, Tindall). WHY ARE THERE NO ACTUAL 12s??!! Hopefully Lennox Anyanwu will develop into the sort of player we've been missing...

Marchant would be a handy player to get back. Hopefully soon after his spell in France has finished. He'd add a possible alternative option to Slade at 13 and there would be a decent balance to him and Lawrence in the centres.

Lennox is likely to be developing at Montpellier so unlikely to trouble England further. Why he'd opt for that toxic environment I'm not sure but that's the rumours. We've got lots of inside centre options coming through, the England A selection next week will be enlightening.

Is Dan Kelly injured? He's not been named in the 'A' squad.

Kelly's been rumoured to be signing with Munster. He'd be Irish qualified again in July. Which would help massively with getting a contract over there. I honestly doubt he'd trouble Ireland selection too much though. Aki, Henshaw and Ringrose are obviously the standouts. McCloskey is also a quality player. Then Osborne looks terrific to me. Henshaw, Aki and McCloskey are all over 30 of course. Faz Snr will keep picking them if they're the best available regardless of age though, as seen with Healy, Keith Earls, now Aki, POM, etc. I just think there's a few significantly better options than Kelly over there.

RFU wrote:Forwards
Joe Batley
Afolabi Fasogbon
Greg Fisilau
Joe Heyes
Ted Hill
Emmanuel Iyogun
Nathan Jibulu
Curtis Langdon
Gabriel Oghre
Tom Pearson
Henry Pollock
Vilikesa Sela
Tom Willis

Backs
Charlie Atkinson
Oscar Beard
Joe Carpenter
Fraser Dingwall
Gabriel Ibitoye
Archie McParland
Cadan Murley
Max Ojomoh
Will Porter
Tom Roebuck
Jamie Shillcock

Delighted to see Pollock involved and I think fast tracking Fasogbon is reasonable given the need for THs and him having physical attributes English props often don't but the game is moving towards.

1.Iyogun 2.Langdon 3.Heyes 4.Batley 5.??? 6.Hill 7.Pearson 8.Willis
9.Porter 10.Atkinson 11.Ibitoye 12.Dingwall 13.Beard or Ojomoh 14.Roebuck 15.Carpenter

16.Jibulu 17.Sela 18.Fasogbon 19.Fisilau 20.Pollock 21.McParland 22.Shillcock 23.Murley

Good looking squad overall for this type of fixture I'd say, but, that's with the big caveat that they are presumably be adding a lock from the senior squad...? Otherwise, it's a good looking squad but oddly short there. With Ted Hill basically needing to start and Oghre presumably the surplus hooker who'd cover back row from the bench? This squad would make a lot of sense but only if one of the surplus locks in Ewels or Coles is released to start. Otherwise, surely Rus Tuima or Chunya Munga would have been reasonable additions.

Realistically, the lock that should be there for this sort of game is Junior Kpoku. Very impressive at U20s in that strong JRWC winning pack and already starting for Racing in the Top 14 whilst still a teenager. The RFU should be working hard to bring him back given the drop off at lock is drastic after Itoje, Martin and Chess. I'd go as far to say I'd be more excited by him returning that Joe Marchant or Jack Willis given the varying depth in their positions. Of the capped guys in France who haven't retired, I'd say Marchant is the biggest loss. He was excellent in the RWC and would suit this defensive system. Quality player.

The forwards are coming together but need more depth in physicality and ball carrying. Kpoku is the sort of player who could rapidly become that 4th lock they need. Whilst Pollock could be a brilliant back up to Earl. They're the sort of players I'd be looking at trying to get in and around the senior squad ASAP. The first choice pack is really good now IMO. With no injuries, the bench is middling to good-ish. With injuries, the bench becomes poor. Below the first choice forwards we currently have players are solid but don't quite have the ceiling you want at the top level. I'd be trying to get forwards with those higher ceilings around the senior squad really early where possible. Pollock definitely looks like that sort of back row for me. Kpoku is increasingly looking like the sort of lock you want to fast track. Opoku-Fordjour and Fasogbon probably the props.