Ulster Discussion Thread

[Kingshu]

First topic message reminder :

In a backrow of Izzy,Timoney and McCann and any Ulster fan will tell you its McCann whos played the best this season. But the other two are the ones called up. It appears that for Ulster players for national selection you are soley judged on the games V Leinster and Munster, the rest of the season the selectors arnt watching. Izzy and Timoney both had great games V them and had some great highlights, McCann was good but no real showreel moments in those games.

[Pete330v2]

Rugbypass are more often than not full of nonsense but they are reporting that Ulster are in the market for a tight head.

Update:
KOTH on another forum confirms that it's true.

[carpet baboon]

Zac ward listed as a winger for Saturdays match

[geoff999rugby]

Decent run out - caveat being I'm sure how strong Treviso were.

One thing that really bugs me, and for me shows a clear Leinster bias.
Is they get Slimani because they only have Furlong and Clarkson.

We have been told to move O'Toole to LH and
Moore seems broken - only 2 starts since 1st January 2023 and currently missing in action.

Which leaves us with Scott Wilson a Development player with 4 starts to his entire career.
Somehow we only get a player not good enough for the English 2nd tier - go figure.

Its a farce - its crystal clear that if O'Toole moves across we will need a credible TH - 100% certain.
If we don't Ireland will have to go and do one because we will have to play O'Toole at TH.

Also no argument can be made about the number of foreigners at Ulster.
Every player qualifies for Ireland by birth or parentage bar one (Kok).
No other province comes remotely close to that.

[formerly known as Sam]

Bit late to be TH shopping unless it's a season long loan for a player down the pecking order elsewhere. Any rumoured names?

[carpet baboon]

Bit late to be TH shopping unless it's a season long loan for a player down the pecking order elsewhere. Any rumoured names?

And that's what makes it even more annoying, it's been know about the TH situation since last season, yet nothing has been done untill now.

[Kingshu]

Bit late to be TH shopping unless it's a season long loan for a player down the pecking order elsewhere. Any rumoured names?

Barrett on trail, 26-year-old who previously been involved in Ulster age-grade teams, and didnt make it and spent last season playing for Doncaster Knights, bedford blues before that and did get a game for Scarcens in the Premiership cup, before that.

Best I think we can hope for is a short term signing from a super rugby side, untill super rugby starts again.

[geoff999rugby]

The stupidity is that failing to address the issue in the early summer means that by far the most likely outcome is
Ulster will have no choice but continue to play O'Toole at TH.
The biggest losers here will be Ireland not Ulster.

Criminal short sightedness by the IRFU

[Pete330v2]

It's crystal clear that Leinster are the jewel in the crown of the IRFU and in a lot of ways I can understand that. They make up the bulk of the international squad and they do go further in Europe consistently than the other 3 provinces. However they've achieved sod all recently in Europe despite their advantages.
Munster seem able to get a good level of fair treatment as well. Regardless of the stadium debt it seems that when needed they can get high quality players airlifted in whether it be injury cover or summer signings.

Ulster get told to suck it up, use your academy or airlifted in Barrett. If he's the TH we've been reputedly looking to sign then it's going to be a long season. No knock ons please.

I think we can officially start referring to the IRFU as The Starmer with it's 2 tier approach or is the 3 tier approach.

[geoff999rugby]

In case anyone missed it we have three trialists

Ward - winger
Barrett - Tight Head
Pringle - Centre (plays for Ballynahinch)

[geoff999rugby]

Posted on the other site that we have the 5th biggest pack in the URC for next year.
If true, and given 4 Saffers teams, that's impressive.

I certainly noticed that a few players have a bit more bulk about them (not the Marty Moore kind  )
Another positive with respect to the change in coaching personnel

I am really quite positive about next year providing we can cope in the scrum.

[Kingshu]

Even though on the other forum they say pack, it is ave squad size, not sure if we have more forwards v backs than other sides that would unbalance it,but also considering we have Lowry and Morgan in the squad it does give an indication that our forwards pack would be near the top as well. Article is here.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/all-16-urc-squads-by-average-height-and-weight/

[Kingshu]

It's crystal clear that Leinster are the jewel in the crown of the IRFU and in a lot of ways I can understand that. They make up the bulk of the international squad and they do go further in Europe consistently than the other 3 provinces. However they've achieved sod all recently in Europe despite their advantages.
Munster seem able to get a good level of fair treatment as well. Regardless of the stadium debt it seems that when needed they can get high quality players airlifted in whether it be injury cover or summer signings.

Ulster get told to suck it up, use your academy or airlifted in Barrett. If he's the TH we've been reputedly looking to sign then it's going to be a long season. No knock ons please.

I think we can officially start referring to the IRFU as The Starmer with it's 2 tier approach or is the 3 tier approach.

Leinster 3 Hcup finals in 3 years isnt sod all, I'd be very happy if Ulster also achieved that sod all but we achieve a different sod all.

With Leinster they don't ask for much so guess when they do its given, though having 10 of their highest earners paid for is a big help.

Its Munster And how they are treated differently to Ulster I cant understand. Munster broke even for the first time in over 10 years last season, thats not counting the stadium debt (they have lumped those 10 year losses in with the stadium debt at a near intrest free loan with the IRFU) in that time they were allowed to have 10 NIQ players at one time, havent been short of big signings, had a NIQ player at centre for over 20 years, have had assistance in paying for Zebo, Pom, Murray, and I dont recall them haveing to cut thier squad, and can even afford Ulsters First choice OH as a back up.

Ulster have one years loss, are down to 1 NIQ have cut squad to smallest out of provinces. It just doesn't add up. How come Ulster have to reduce wages and make cuts, yet Munster are given leeway to spend their way out of trouble and IRFU will absorb the debt, and can even afford Ulsters 1st choice players as back ups, when in a worse finicial position.

[geoff999rugby]

Munster don't have to worry about money, Leinster and Munster don't have to worry about NIQ's - its the IRFU way.

Munster only pay £100,000 a year on a multi million Euro loan which is interest free.
Can we have a Loan like this....thought not !

Munster have 3 NIQ's (not including Salanoa who will, I think, be Residency qualified this year)

Leinster have 3 NIQ's and 2 Residency qualified

Ulster have 1 NIQ and 0 Residency qualified

[Pete330v2]

Squad for the away preseason v Exeter.

(15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Zac Ward*, Jude Postlethwaite, Ben Carson, Aaron Sexton, Aidan Morgan, Nathan Doak;

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, James McCormick, Corrie Barrett*, Alan O’Connor (C), Kieran Treadwell, Matty Rea, Marcus Rea, James McNabney.

Replacements:

John Andrew, Eric O’Sullivan, Scott Wilson, Henry Walker, Harry Sheridan, Reuben Crothers, David McCann, Nick Timoney Dave Shanahan, James Humphreys, Mike Lowry, Stewart Moore, Werner Kok, Ben Moxham

[Kingshu]

Is Cooney injured? Hasnt been in either squad

[geoff999rugby]

Rumours are that McNabney making a serious claim to be a starter.
If Timoney and Izzy are not allowed to start because they were sitting on their backsides in South Africa I think he will

[Intotouch]

Hi Kingshu,
What year are you talking about re 10 niqs? You wrote “in that time they were allowed to have 10 NIQ players at one time, ”
I can never remember there being that many.

[carpet baboon]

Anyone know how long Joe Hopes is going to be out for?

[Kingshu]

Hi Kingshu,
What year are you talking about re 10 niqs? You wrote “in that time they were allowed to have 10 NIQ players at one time, ”
I can never remember there being that many.

In last 10 years at end of 2016/2017 season Munter had NIQ/E
Du Toit, Marshall, Kleyn, Toma, Bleyendaal, Saili, Taute, Chisholm, Deysel and Griesel

[Intotouch]

Hi Kingshu,
What year are you talking about re 10 niqs? You wrote “in that time they were allowed to have 10 NIQ players at one time, ”
I can never remember there being that many.

In last 10  years at end of 2016/2017 season Munter had NIQ/E
Du Toit, Marshall, Kleyn, Toma, Bleyendaal, Saili, Taute, Chisholm, Deysel and Griesel

Id no idea. I only recognise half those names. I thought it was only Connacht who were given that leeway.

Is this current limit on NIQa in Ulster coming from David Nucifora or David Humphrey’s?

I remember hearing a few years ago that the IRFU were disappointed in how few quality professional players were coming through the Ulster system. Given that there the playing numbers are between Munster and Leinster’s they expected more. Maybe this limit is to force Ulster to improve their pathways.

My nephew, when he attended Kilkenny college a few years ago, told me that his classmate was offered a place by the Ulster academy. His. classmate is also from Leinster and Kilkenny college is obviously in Leinster. This type of cross province recruitment sounds unusual to me. Or is I? It doesn’t suggest that there was a queue of great Ulster school prospects if they’re fishing for players in Leinster. This is, I think something that would p off other provinces. And maybe feeds into this current limit?

I’m only guessing here with all of this.

[geoff999rugby]

McCloskey has decided to end his career at Ulster - signed till 2027.

I put this totally down to the change in the head coach.
He would, along with others, been away under McFarland.

[geoff999rugby]

 

Is this current limit on NIQa in Ulster coming from David Nucifora or David Humphrey’s?

Niucifora called the shots up to a couple of months ago.
Slimini would not have been approved by Humphreys.
We have a ban on NIQ props across the provinces; there is speculation the same may come in for 10's

I remember hearing a few years ago that the IRFU were disappointed in how few quality professional players were coming through the Ulster system. Given that there the playing numbers are between Munster and Leinster’s  they expected more. Maybe this limit is to force Ulster to improve their pathways.

There is a chicken before an egg here.
There has been an improvement in the Ulster Academy for a couple of years - we are starting to see the fruits now.
Playing numbers are a very inaccurate measure of active players - there is a tendency to stay registered well after retirement.
Leinster are ahead because of the money pumped into their schools - simple as

The throughput at Munster has been no better for years.
You do get exceptions like Crowley and Ahearn but living off past glories of the likes of Hayes, Horan, Flannery, POC, DOC.
POM, Zebo came through many years ago.
Munster have been far more reliant on NIQ than Ulster for years.

The limit has nothing to do with Ulster's pathways.

My nephew, when he attended Kilkenny college a few years ago,  told me that his classmate was offered a place by the Ulster academy.  His. classmate is also from Leinster and Kilkenny college is obviously in Leinster. This type of cross province recruitment sounds unusual to me. Or is I? It doesn’t suggest that there was a queue of great Ulster school prospects if they’re fishing for players in Leinster. This is, I think something that would p off other provinces. And maybe feeds into this current limit?

I’m only guessing here with all of this.

You are guessing wrong.
Ulster do offer Leinster born players Academy spots but only when Leinster don't pick them up and they have always been a small minority of the total Academy set up.
So no it doesn't feed into the current limit.

Ulster have only 1 NIQ because of financial constraints - unlike Munster they don't have a, virtually, free loan.

[geoff999rugby]

2016/2017
Du Toit, Marshall, Kleyn, Toma, Bleyendaal, Saili, Taute, Chisholm, Deysel and Griesel

Checked it out and your right - Munster used 10 NIQ players in one Season - unbelievable

The most Ulster ever had was 4 NIQ + 1 Project

[geoff999rugby]

Wilson Sheridan Izzy Postlethwaite Ward and Murphy in Emerging Ireland squad

Relief Morgan not there.
At Lock we need Henderson, Treadwell and AOC to stay fit
At TH TOT will be firmly at TH regardless of Ireland's wishes
Great opportunity for Murphy and Ward in particular

Total waste of time for the three forwards who would all get bigger matches as first team choices for Ulster

Overall though not too bad - we should be fine

[Welshmushroom]

Whats the injury list for R1 looking like? Is everyone fit? Some of the other teams have been decimated by injuries. The bad news is none of the opening 6 fixtures are against any of those teams. That probably helps a lot of the sides aiming for top 8.

[geoff999rugby]

Sheridan signed up till 2027.

Good to get key players signed at the beginning of the season rather than after the New Year.

[Kingshu]

2016/2017
Du Toit, Marshall, Kleyn, Toma, Bleyendaal, Saili, Taute, Chisholm, Deysel and Griesel

Checked it out and your right - Munster used 10 NIQ players in one Season - unbelievable

The most Ulster ever had was 4 NIQ + 1 Project  

Thats whats frustrating, Munster still posted a financial loss that season, and 4/5 seasons before that, and after. Yet still were allowed to sign numerous NIQs, never told to cut wage bill, number of NIQs and/or use academy players.

I get that NIQ limits have reduced, but surely Ulster should have room for 1 or 2 more, even if means not breaking even?

From 2016,
'It’s understood the total loss, which is still to be confirmed at Munster’s annual general meeting, is in excess of €2 million and the IRFU will now bail the province out to that sum as they look to rebound next season.'

But 2024 for Ulster
"We will finish the year somewhere between £2.5m and £3m [€2.9m and €3.5m] in deficit but we have agreed a financial plan which we have confidence in and which will return us to stability and break even within two to three seasons,"

No mention of a bailout?


Also that season IRFU had a €2m surplus and it was expected that there would be a acash injection for each province will be in the region of €500,000

From Munster accounts Munster recieved €1.1m and Ulster recieved £217k, appears that wasn't split equally 4 ways .

[geoff999rugby]

I've given up on Munster and Ulster being treated equally

[geoff999rugby]

Corrie Barrett given a 1 year contract

[geoff999rugby]

My closes rugby going mate recently retired (his job had connections with Ulster rugby)

He received a personalised video of thanks from Rory Best and Will Addison.
He wont admit it but I'm sure he was moved by it.
I've seen it - the guys took time out to say thanks to someone who helped them behind the scene - class acts.

Will Addison has to be one of the nicest people you can ever meet.
A thoroughly decent human being (Chris Henry is the same and for personnel reason so is Simon Danielli)

Rory's not a bad guy either !

[Kingshu]

Ulster 23

(15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Mike Lowry, Stewart Moore, Jude Postlethwaite, Jacob Stockdale, Aidan Morgan, Nathan Doak;

(1-8) Eric O’Sullivan, John Andrew, Corrie Barrett, Iain Henderson (C), Kieran Treadwell, James McNabney, David McCann, Nick Timoney.

Replacements: James McCormick, Andrew Warwick, Tom O’Toole, Harry Sheridan, Cormac Izuchukwu, Dave Shanahan, James Humphreys, Werner Kok.
Glasgow Warriors team to face Ulster at Kingspan Stadium, Saturday 21 September, kick-off 7.45pm.

1 Jamie Bhatti (106), 2 Johnny Matthews (73), 3 Sam Talakai (0), 4 Max Williamson (19), 5 Richie Gray (115), 6 Matt Fagerson (111), 7 Rory Darge (48), 8 Henco Venter (22), 9 Jamie Dobie (68), 10 Tom Jordan (50), 11 Kyle Steyn (C) (77), 12 Sione Tuipulotu (55), 13 Stafford McDowall (78), 14 Sebastian Cancelliere (38), 15 Josh McKay (49)

16 Gregor Hiddleston (9), 17 Nathan McBeth (42), 18 Zander Fagerson (149), 19 Alex Samuel (15), 20 Gregor Brown (20), 21 Euan Ferrie (20), 22 Ben Afshar (8), 23 Adam Hastings (53)

Unavailable for selection: Facundo Cordero (ankle), Scott Cummings (foot), Allan Dell (arm), Jack Dempsey (back), Huw Jones (calf), Ally Miller (calf), JP du Preez (knee), Ollie Smith (knee), Rory Sutherland (groin), Sione Vailanu (knee), Murphy Walker (neck)

[geoff999rugby]

Plenty unavailable for Ulster

Hume, Flannery, Stewart, Herring, McCloskey, Baloucoune, Sexton, Crothers, Cooney, Ward, M. Moore

To which I would add Wilson not being in the 23 and Sheridan and Izzy on the bench because of the Emerging Ireland selection.

That's 7 starters and 3 on the bench missing in my book.

Still a very good bench for Ulster with the exception of half back.
Great opportunity for McNabney and Postlewaite to make their marks

[geoff999rugby]

There was a Q & A this week where a few facts came out.

The squad are, on the whole bigger than last year.
29 players recorded a personal best in terms of speed.

Both facts that suggest to me the strength and conditioning under McFarland was totally inadequate.


Murphy and Duffy answered questions on Tight Head position.

Forget what Ireland want, Tom O'Toole will be playing TH for Ulster this year
Marty Moore returning is questionable

Not their exact words but it wasn't difficult to read between the lines

[Redman]

There was a Q & A this week where a few facts came out.

The squad are, on the whole bigger than last year.
29 players recorded a personal best in terms of speed.

Both facts that suggest to me the strength and conditioning under McFarland was totally inadequate.


Murphy and Duffy answered questions on Tight Head position.

Forget what Ireland want, Tom O'Toole will be playing TH for Ulster this year
Marty Moore returning is questionable

Not their exact words but it wasn't difficult to read between the lines

The lack of fitness has been plain the see for a while now.

It also demonstrates that structurally there were big gaps in management hierarchy. It always felt like that McFarland a) needed a DoR to do a lot of the higher level strategic man/team/coach management and b) wasn't the sort of personality that would have reacted well to having to work for a DoR. Petrie obviously wasn't capable of calling him out of things like squad fitness, nor was McFarland capable himself of identifying and addressing it.

[Maine man]

On a different topic, Will Addison on the bench for Sale. I hope he has an injury free season. What could have been eh?

[Maine man]

How did Ulster manage to win that!?!?

[carpet baboon]

Well fair play for us fighting till the end, but Glasgow only have themselves to blame.
Doak really needs to speed up his game.
Our bench made a big difference

[BigGee]

Well done guys, you won because you stayed in the game and never let us get away. A great effort from Ulster.

[carpet baboon]

How did Ulster manage to win that!?!?

Luckily Glasgow didn't do enough with all the ball we gave them

[clivemcl]

I think the hard time we had with the pick and go on their line was more so evidence of Glasgow’s quality than our lack of quality. On the whole, I think our pack carried well.

Morgan done well with the charge down and kick chase and backed himself to score in the end. That aside, we will be hoping our back line does better in both attack and defence. Morgan actually shipped the ball on very statically and under no pressure a lot. It’s very early days of course. There was one very nice prepared move they performed in the second half with a direction change down the narrow side. More of that. Also looking to see more of Kok. Hope his versatility doesn’t land him as our full time bench option.

One of Glasgows tries up the far side I rewatched to pick apart. Both Morgan and Lowry shot up. Which I think is what they had been told to do at HT, but Doak doesn’t just not push up, he actually retreats, this is what let Glasgow advance and put the pass in behind our Ulster defence. Pretty poor.

All things considered, a win against the champs is massive, even if it did feel like robbery! Well done the lads for believing till the end!

[jimbopip]

Lads, I missed the match, on jollyhols, could any of you tell me how the new Glasgow prop played? Ta.

[geoff999rugby]

We showed a fighting team spirit which will stand us in good sted during the season.
Need to realise we had:

the 3rd choice Hooker and the 4th choice TH out there.
In the backs we only had one of the 1st XV starting and he was playing his first competitive game
(I don't thing Lowry will be a first choice winger - he may well be the first choice 15)

Weakness ?

The scrum but we already know that will be out biggest problem this season but Herring and a better quality TH will help to some degree.
Doak again simply too slow - not for the first time he was outshone by Shanahan

Positives?

Morgan this guy will be a real find
Are Issy and Sheridan better than Hendo and Treadwell? - on that game yes.
For Hendo I suspect he is still getting up to speed but Treadwell and AOC could easily be 4th and 5th choice Locks this year.
 
As they say 'a wins a win'.
Go to South Africa without fear; put out the stronger team against the Lions and you never know we could just bring a second win back with us on the plane.

[Redman]

Obviously agree with everything that's been said. We were incredibly lucky that Glasgow created so little given their general dominance.

One point that will be overlooked in victory is Doak getting hooked at 53 mins. That's 4 mins earlier than Henderson for Izzy and Hendy was ruined for most of that match. If Morgan's tee kicking is indicative then that's Murphy knowing that we then wouldn't have a recognised goal kicker on the pitch but he didn't care.

That's a hell of a marker.

Now I'm not a conspiracy theorist but I thought at the end of the first half Doak, having been glacial all night, seemed to be deliberately avoiding passing to Morgan. There was one example where, after Morgan marshalled the backline for a pass, Doak randomly hooked a kick over the top straight a Glaswegian back 3. It was bizarre. Maybe it's styles. We've played through 9 for so long it must be weird to have a 10 who wants to run the backline.

Anyway, whatever the reason for the disfunction that's a serious kick up the a$$ for the Doak.

[Welshmushroom]

To be fair to Ulster your right. There was plenty of heart on show by them. I still think the SA might be a stretch but if they could win one of those it would be very good. R2 probably may be the one as well as the fact SA sides didnt play last weekend might leave them a little undercooked going in against the NH sides. Ulster for me have a much better chance than Edinburgh. I can't see Edinburgh get anything over there after last weekend but Ulster could very well catch the Lions cold. I'm not convinced they will get anything against Bulls but 1 out of 2 would be a excellent return this early in the season. Plenty of sides will get nothing from those tours.

[geoff999rugby]

In case anyone missed it McCann has added a year to his contract.


Really smart move getting the likes of McCloskey, Sheridan and McCann signed up now rather than waiting till the New Year.

Get the key contract extension done early

[Maine man]

Moore retired. Will Ulster be allowed to sign a tighthead? Probably not.

[Pete330v2]

Moore retired. Will Ulster be allowed to sign a tighthead? Probably not.

The IRFU will have to forget moving TOT to loose head at the very least. Failing that we simply have to be given the chance to grab a prop.

[carpet baboon]

If they want Ulster to be competitive then we need another tight head.
Not sure where we will find one. Some Georgian in the french D2?

[Unclear]

Let's not forget to say thanks to Mr Moore for his contribution to Ulster and wish him all the best after professional rugby.

But we do really really need another decent tight head prop.

[geoff999rugby]

As I mentioned a couple of months ago Injuries and International Calls ups will force the IRFU to allow a cover player.

O'Toole is with Ireland, Wilson gets a knock
I wait with interest which player Ulster are expected to start with.

Won't be a problem if we were allowed to sign a TH with 57 International caps.
Wont be a problem if we were allowed 3 NIQs not 1 like Leinster and Munster.

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