Ulster Discussion Thread

[Kingshu]

First topic message reminder :

In a backrow of Izzy,Timoney and McCann and any Ulster fan will tell you its McCann whos played the best this season. But the other two are the ones called up. It appears that for Ulster players for national selection you are soley judged on the games V Leinster and Munster, the rest of the season the selectors arnt watching. Izzy and Timoney both had great games V them and had some great highlights, McCann was good but no real showreel moments in those games.

[Pete330v2]

The IRFU either want Ulster to be competitive at both URC and Champs Cup level or they don't. It's now time to show us which it is through action. The usual words of "we need to produce homegrown talent" are fine but they don't win you matches or get the fans through the gates and buying the merch.

I shall wait with baited breath.
What's Jeff Toomaga-Allen up to by the way?

[Kingshu]

JTA currently at Queensland Reds, season just finish, may be able to tempt him back to March when Super Rugby starts again?

But then we'll be very short come the business end of the season and next season.

Prob need to get a good IQ prop, even if means IRFU have to buy out Contract and top up pay. Are they any Prem ones, maybe capped by (more than 3 years ago) England that were and again now IQ

[formerly known as Sam]

If they want Ulster to be competitive then we need another tight head.
Not sure where we will find one. Some Georgian in the french D2?

ProD2 contracts can be quite chunky. Might be expensive to buy someone out of a contract. English Championship or New Zealand provincial competitions might be more cost effective and easier to get the player out. Finding someone IQ might be tricky.

Oisin Heffernan at Bedford immediately springs to mind though he failed to make the step up to Prem level having looked decent in the Championship a few years back. Injury didn't help.

[mikey_dragon]

If they want Ulster to be competitive then we need another tight head.
Not sure where we will find one. Some Georgian in the french D2?

ProD2 contracts can be quite chunky. Might be expensive to buy someone out of a contract. English Championship or New Zealand provincial competitions might be more cost effective and easier to get the player out. Finding someone IQ might be tricky.

Oisin Heffernan at Bedford immediately springs to mind though he failed to make the step up to Prem level having looked decent in the Championship a few years back. Injury didn't help.

That's probably to stop the Top14 nicking them, when D2 clubs have aspirations of promotion. Currie Cup rugby is another good place to look although the biggest guys there usually get signed by one of the four SA Franchises. I'd recommend looking at Cheetahs or Puma's, as you're unlikely to get one from a currie cup team who are also a franchise. Lions were previously looking to offload some front-row forwards so might be worth a shout, but one of them is already with the Sharks.

[Kingshu]

Forgot Scott wilson on EI tour, that leaves Ulster with ToT, Barrett  and 20yo Boyd how hasnt been capped just played under 20s?

[Pete330v2]

At what point does the IRFU acknowledge the fact that we need someone signed. Is it when the crisis bells start ringing and therefore too late or do they act now an avert the panic? Humphreys surely will have a rethink and allow one special case for a short to medium term signing until an IQ prop of a decent standard is found.

[Unclear]

I'm not sure the IRFU are terribly interested in provincial success, in the URC or in Europe. It feels like Leinster and Munster can generate "additional" funding to cover the costs of significant imports and I don't know if Ulster can. Don't know why Munster aren't told to cover their debts the same way. But in the end life is a female canine and then you die.

No one who is decent will be sitting around waiting to be picked up a week into the season, and no team is going to want give up someone decent so early in the season. Perhaps the IRFU want Ulster to play with 14 and uncontested scrums for the whole game? JTA would be great but we never seem to get those sort of breaks.

[Welshmushroom]

Moore retiring I do think has put a spanner in to the Ulster season. It's safe to say O'Toole won't do the season on his own and Barrett looks a little lost at this level at set piece.

If they dont get a tighthead cover soon this may end up derailing their season especially if they have an injury to O'Toole.

[geoff999rugby]

You forgot Wilson.

Moore not making it back has been on the cards for months Ulster knew it , IRFU knew it but
apparently a team with Furlong and Clarkson is more need of an extra TH
than a team with a player the IRFU want moved to LH (O'Toole) and a Development player (Wilson)

So I don't think its a spanner in the works.
It an situation any one with half a brain could see coming but the IRFU did their ostrich impersonation when Ulster pointed out the bleeding obvious

I'd take Jeff Toomaga-Allen back in a heart beat even if was only to March.
Popular player, dominant scrummager and a short commute  to work

[geoff999rugby]

Squad for South Africa

Hooker, Tadgh McElroy, has joined the province on a short term injury cover basis and travels with the squad.

The former Ireland U20s hooker spent last season with Connacht (13 games) and has also played for Saracens, Bedford Blues, Bristol Bears, London Irish and Leinster.

Backs: John Cooney, Nathan Doak, Dave Shanahan, Aidan Morgan, James Humphreys, Jacob Stockdale, Mike Lowry, Ben Moxham, Werner Kok, Stuart McCloskey, Stewart Moore, Ben Carson, Ethan McIlroy

Forwards:

Andy Warwick, Eric O’Sullivan, Callum Reid, John Andrew, James McCormick, Tadgh McElroy, Tom O’Toole, Corrie Barrett, Iain Henderson (C), Alan O’Connor, Kieran Treadwell, Charlie Irvine, James McNabney, Matty Rea, Sean Reffell, David McCann, Nick Timoney.

[carpet baboon]

Irvine is 6"8 and he looked decent in the under Ireland 20s will be a big step up to go up against the South Africans if he gets a run out.

Anyone know how long Joe Hopes is going to be out for?

[Unclear]

Squad for South Africa

Hooker, Tadgh McElroy, has joined the province on a short term injury cover basis and travels with the squad.

The former Ireland U20s hooker spent last season with Connacht (13 games) and has also played for Saracens, Bedford Blues, Bristol Bears, London Irish and Leinster.

Backs: John Cooney, Nathan Doak, Dave Shanahan, Aidan Morgan, James Humphreys, Jacob Stockdale, Mike Lowry, Ben Moxham, Werner Kok, Stuart McCloskey, Stewart Moore, Ben Carson, Ethan McIlroy

Forwards:

Andy Warwick, Eric O’Sullivan, Callum Reid, John Andrew, James McCormick, Tadgh McElroy, Tom O’Toole, Corrie Barrett, Iain Henderson (C), Alan O’Connor, Kieran Treadwell, Charlie Irvine, James McNabney, Matty Rea, Sean Reffell, David McCann, Nick Timoney.

The forwards look a trifle makeshift given the injuries and call-ups to Emerging Ireland, and the one place you don't want to go with a makeshift pack is SA.

Expectations set low - zero points but a couple of gritty performances and hopefully no serious injuries.

Glass half empty, but hope springs eternal, unlike the unfortunate Joe H.

[Welshmushroom]

You forgot Wilson.

No it's not that I forgot him. I just don't think given his age and development you can ask the guy to play the kind of minutes your two main tighthead props have to play in a season. If they do end up playing him for a 1000 mins this year they could totally derail his development. At 22 he should be having like 4 or 5 starts in a season with a handful of appearances of the bench. They need to be careful not to ruin a promising prop.

[geoff999rugby]

True if you include Barrett who is nowhere near as good you should also include Wilson.

What Ulster have is Tom O'Toole who Ireland want to move to LH
Wilson who is a highly promising player but still development
Barratt who is a club level player
and a couple of Academy players who ability to make a mark is debatable

Not even close to being enough

If they dont get a tighthead cover soon this may end up derailing their season especially if they have an injury to O'Toole.  

Paradoxically it wont derail the season because if injury/international call ups deny Ulster both O'Toole and Wilson there is a very real possibility Ulster will not be able to fulfil a fixture.

That has to be completely unacceptable to the IRFU.

I was shouting about this, at least 2 months back, not out of any great insight, but because as I mentioned about it is bleeding obvious.

[clivemcl]

A few unfamiliar (to me) names in the travelling squad to South Africa. Are they known names, or suprrises to others on here who are more clued in that I am?

Tadgh McElroy? Charlie Irvine?

[Don Alfonso]

McElroy's a medical joker - used to play for Connacht l. Irvine was an U20s second row last season (?( - not the biggest unit but good technically in lineout, maul etc

[Kingshu]

True if you include Barrett who is nowhere near as good you should also include Wilson.

What Ulster have is Tom O'Toole who Ireland want to move to LH
Wilson who is a highly promising player but still development
Barratt who is a club level player
and a couple of Academy players who ability to make a mark is debatable

Not even close to being enough

If they dont get a tighthead cover soon this may end up derailing their season especially if they have an injury to O'Toole.  

Paradoxically it wont derail the season because if injury/international call ups deny Ulster both O'Toole and Wilson there is a very real possibility Ulster will not be able to fulfil a fixture.

That has to be completely unacceptable to the IRFU.

I was shouting about this, at least 2 months back, not out of any great insight, but because as I mentioned about it is bleeding obvious.

It was fairly obvious, and I'm not sure how Ulster IRFU let it get to this, start of the season Munster have 8 senior props 4 in academy, Leinster 8 and 4 as well, Connacht 7 and 1

Ulster 6 and 4. Now down to 5 and 4.

Barrett was a late addition a week before the preseason friendies it looked like it would be 5 and 4, which would be now down to 4 and 4.

Thats was always dangerous, plus I'd say that of all the senior props in Ireland, Reid and Barrett would be the worst. Connachts 3rd choice Lasisi and Dooley are better.

How Ed Byrne (I know a LH but we are still weak there) went to Cardiff instead of Ulster I'll never know.

It begs the question, if fans can see it, clear as day, Ulster and IRFU must know it, so what action was attempted to fix it, and why didn't it work out?

[geoff999rugby]

Ulster asked for help, IRFU ignored them

[geoff999rugby]

If you look at experience at playing prop at a senior level (including for non Irish teams)
all the other provinces have 6, or 7, players with over 20 appearances.

Ulster have 3  and according to the IRFU they are all LH

Laughable

[Pete330v2]

I came on here feeling pretty down re: Ulster. I'm now in the sub-basement feelings wise. We truly are the despised province, if this isn't true then what's the official IRFU line I wonder.

[mikey_dragon]

How Ed Byrne (I know a LH but we are still weak there) went to Cardiff instead of Ulster I'll never know.

Gosh can't you see it by now... It's because nobody likes Ulster!

[Redman]

We picked a bad time to run into financial difficulties. The IRFU aren't exactly flush with cash. Conversely Munster picked a period of relative plenty to get themselves into trouble.

That the financial difficulties have been largely self inflicted won't have helped either.

That being said they still should have forced at least 1 recognised tighthead to move and/or agreed not to take Wilson on tour (as presumably they have with Aidan Morgan).

[geoff999rugby]

All true but the key difference is you can play a poor player in any other position and get away with it.
A player not ready to play Prop at this level risks serious injury.
That is the very real danger here.

I am not convinced any of our three props who have just entered Year 2 of the Academy are anywhere near ready.

So that, effectively, makes 5 props in total, including a promoted club player and a promising youngster.
Never in a million years is that enough.

[Pete330v2]

All true but the key difference is you can play a poor player in any other position and get away with it.
A player not ready to play Prop at this level risks serious injury.
That is the very real danger here.

This is exactly what I was discussing with a colleague over coffee yesterday. The danger factor alone simply has to be enough for the IRFU to act. A fledgling TH prop is simply not an option. Not only the physical aspect which is all too obvious but the long term mental effect being destroyed in scrums would have on a young, developing player. If the injury didn't stunt the players development the mental effect could very well be a massive hurdle to get past.
Come on Mr Humphreys, act now and avert a crisis instead of having to panic about it in the near future.

[geoff999rugby]

All true but the key difference is you can play a poor player in any other position and get away with it.
A player not ready to play Prop at this level risks serious injury.
That is the very real danger here.

This is exactly what I was discussing with a colleague over coffee yesterday. The danger factor alone simply has to be enough for the IRFU to act. A fledgling TH prop is simply not an option. Not only the physical aspect which is all too obvious but the long term mental effect being destroyed in scrums would have on a young, developing player. If the injury didn't stunt the players development the mental effect could very well be a massive hurdle to get past.
Come on Mr Humphreys, act now and avert a crisis instead of having to panic about it in the near future.

On this exact point Welshmushroom made the following perfectly valid observation about Wilson

 I just don't think given his age and development you can ask the guy to play the kind of minutes your two main tighthead props have to play in a season.  If they do end up playing him for a 1000 mins this year they could totally derail his development.  At 22 he should be having like 4 or 5 starts in a season with a handful of appearances of the bench.  They need to be careful not to ruin a promising prop.  

Boyd, Doak and Boal are, 2 years behind Wilson in terms of development.
If Wilson needs to be managed logically these three should be nowhere near a 1st XV shirt.
If they are it will be to their long term detriment.

Saunderson was the prop we were hoping to make the step up this year but his health, quite rightly, has necessity him leaving the game.

[Pete330v2]

Squad's Up

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Tom O’Toole, Kieran Treadwell, Alan O’Connor (C), Matty Rea, Sean Reffell, Nick Timoney;

(15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Werner Kok, Stewart Moore, Stuart McCloskey, Jacob Stockdale, Aidan Morgan, John Cooney.

Replacements:

James McCormick, Eric O’Sullivan, Corrie Barrett, Iain Henderson, James McNabney, Nathan Doak, Mike Lowry, David McCann.

[geoff999rugby]

A chance

Trying to have an impact off the bench with 6 forwards and subs including
Henderson, McCann, and Lowry

[carpet baboon]

The Ulster contingent in the EI game all looked decent. I think Izzy was the standout by a good distance.
Sheridan did very well and Ward looks like he could become a decent winger. Jude had Murphy had some nice touches.

Considering they haven't trained much together it was a decent performance. Defence was a bit hit and miss.

Other players who went well, Aungier did well in the scrum and around the park , and I thought Devine threw himself about in defence for a small fella.
I'm also a big fan of Hugh Gavin

[Kingshu]

From reading game reports Izzy and Sheridan were a cut above and really are above this tour, would have been more beneficial for them and Ulster to be playing Lions, Bulls Connacht, than Pumas western force and Cheetahs.

Jack Murphy appeared to outshine Prendergast, which could be exciting.

[Kingshu]

Brian O’Connor from Bedford touted as joining Ulster.
Looks to maybe be better than Barrett, but not sure if by much

[Pete330v2]

From reading game reports Izzy and Sheridan were a cut above and really are above this tour, would have been more beneficial for them and Ulster to be playing Lions, Bulls Connacht, than Pumas western force and Cheetahs.

Jack Murphy appeared to outshine Prendergast, which could be exciting.

I'd loved to have had the opportunity to watch the match but alas I couldn't find a broadcast
It's great to hear the reports of Izzy and Sheridan, they've kicked on so well but I'd rather have them excelling in white at the moment. It'd be extremely exciting if Murphy was to kick on sooner rather than later, a battle between him and Morgan would be ultimately beneficial for Ulster.

I've not heard any thing about Brian O'Connor. He's a big old lump at 6'3 and 17st and has had a bit of a journey since leaving Munster but he's still young and has experience so if he's coming then fingers crossed they've got good reason to bring him to Ulster.

[Don Alfonso]

If you make a sign-in, you can watch the EI game here -

https://plus.irishrugby.ie/events/pthbxdxp

You'll also be able to watch the next two.

[Maine man]

Team up
Ulster: Mike Lowry; Werner Kok, Stewart Moore, Ben Carson, Jacob Stockdale; Aidan Morgan, Nathan Doak; Andrew Warwick, James McCormick, Corrie Barrett; Iain Henderson(capt), Charlie Irwin; James McNabney, Sean Reffell, David McCann.

Replacements: Tadhg McElroy, Eric O’Sullivan, Tom O'Toole, Alan O'Connor, Nick Timoney, Dave Shanahan, James Humphreys, Ben Moxham

[Redman]

Brave but you have to respect Murphy's selection policy. Irvine for such a big game (albeit he's not going to be a better partner to shepherd him into professional rugby) is a really big call. He could have very easily opted for Treadwell, Rea or someone else.

Same goes for McCormick (could have just flogged Andrew again) though he obviously has at least some minutes under his belt.

Shows that he is committed to player development.

Overall its a half decent team but I am concerned about the scrum.

[Don Alfonso]

To manage any kind of points out of this game will be a moral victory.

[carpet baboon]

All in all not a bad game. Scoreline not great but we were up against a top class scrum, and it could have gone much worse.
Thought Irvine did well. Needs to bulk up a bit but that will come. He clearly has the ability.
I thought Carson went well at 12, and Stockdale seems to getting his attacking mojo back.
Mini Humph showed some class, hopefully him Murphy and Morgan can push each other on.
Also thought Moore showed a lot more maturity in this game and didn't switch off as he was prone to do.
Mcnabey is showing what a powerful unit he is and McCann is just a class act, and he has to be in the Ireland squad in the autumn.

Front row is still a concern and not sure what we can do to fix that what with the ban on foreign props. Don't want to flog the young props all season, and did I read correctly that Wilson was loose head for emerging Ireland yesterday?

Big game at the weekend that we really need to win

[Pete330v2]

If you make a sign-in, you can watch the EI game here -

https://plus.irishrugby.ie/events/pthbxdxp

You'll also be able to watch the next two.

Cheers Don, worked well.

[Pete330v2]

All in all not a bad game. Scoreline not great but we were up against a top class scrum, and it could have gone much worse.
Thought Irvine did well. Needs to bulk up a bit but that will come. He clearly has the ability.
I thought Carson went well at 12, and Stockdale seems to getting his attacking mojo back.
Mini Humph showed some class, hopefully him Murphy and Morgan can push each other on.
Also thought Moore showed a lot more maturity in this game and didn't switch off as he was prone to do.
Mcnabey is showing what a powerful unit he is and McCann is just a class act, and he has to be in the Ireland squad in the autumn.

Front row is still a concern and not sure what we can do to fix that what with the ban on foreign props. Don't want to flog the young props all season, and did I read correctly that Wilson was loose head for emerging Ireland yesterday?

Big game at the weekend that we really need to win

+1 to all the above. The scoreline of a game so often doesn't tell the story. It would have been nice to come away with a try bonus point but such is life.

We cannot go forward having scrum minced like that but we'll see how that mini-story transpires, we need some kind of front row emergency signing the way Munster can get at the slightest indication of need.

Wilson was indeed brought on yesterday ay LH, I don't know why but if it's part of a plan they'd need to quit now, he's a TH, our TH.

Update:
I almost forgot to add, Werner Kok, what a player. One minute he's whizzing down the wing, next he's emptying a ruck before having another whizz on the wing or centre. He was everywhere. Great signing.

[Kingshu]

Kok is a work horse, full of running and commitment, hoped when he signed thelat energy and workrate, and going looking for work would rubboff our on our wings, as its something that has been missing, either coaching or attitude.

I actally think if we had JTA and Sunderland in our squad like a couple season ago, we could have been looking at a very good season. Think currently we'd be happy with top 8, with those two it could be top 4

[carpet baboon]

With the news Poselthwait has been released back to Ulster is that a signal the McCloskey's injury is worse than first thought?

[Don Alfonso]

With the news Poselthwait has been released back to Ulster is that a signal the McCloskey's injury is worse than first thought?

He came on early in the first game last Wednesday and played on Sunday. There's no way he could do a third game this Wednesday, so I'm not sure I'd read too much into it.

[Kingshu]

With the news Poselthwait has been released back to Ulster is that a signal the McCloskey's injury is worse than first thought?

He came on early in the first game last Wednesday and played on Sunday. There's no way he could do a third game this Wednesday, so I'm not sure I'd read too much into it.

Izzy played both games but isn't being released, but maybe thats because he's in leadership group, ir that the provinces have requested players they need and are unlikely to play 3rd test to be released, as all players released are in positions the provinces are short on currently

[geoff999rugby]

Looks like another TH coming in the next week or so

McCloskey injury doesn't sound good - could be missing him and Hume for sometime.
Will be very stretched at centre.
Postlewaite will probably be a regular starter

I see IRFU trying to convert every decent Ulster TH to LH - morons
If Wilson starts at LH against the Cheetahs I'll *!!&&$$* swear.

I actually think a lot of positives came out of that game - Irvine, McCormick, McNabney all really showed up well
Stockdale was outstanding
Never been the biggest fan but have to say Carson and Humphreys did well
Kok is an absolute ball of energy great to see
If McCann isn't in an Ireland squad this season I will be disgusted.


Ditto for Izzy who by all accounts has been the stand out player for the Emerging Ireland team.

However without adequate props we will struggle big time.
We need both O'Toole and Wilson at TH (Are you listening IRFU !!) to remain competitive.
We also need Sheridan and Izzy back desperately - Treadwell and O'Connor are squad players these days
Without Wilson, Sheridan and Izzy Connacht is going to be a very difficult match

[Kingshu]

For EI Scott wilson named as replacement TH, tbh not sure why he hasn't been starting I'd have him ahead of Jack Aungier.

Izzy not in squad for final game, but sure when he wasn't released back to Ulster with Postlethwaite.

For the new TH signing, please tell me its someone else to Brian O'Connor.

[Maine man]

Bryan O'Connor confirmed on twitter

[Pete330v2]

A strong Ulster side named for the Connacht game and better still a side with a decent front row

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Tom O’Toole, Iain Henderson (C), Kieran Treadwell, David McCann, Sean Reffell, Nick Timoney;

(15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Werner Kok, Stewart Moore, Jude Postlethwaite, Jacob Stockdale, Aidan Morgan, John Cooney

Replacements: James McCormick, Callum Reid, Corrie Barrett, Alan O’Connor, Marcus Rea, Nathan Doak, Ben Carson, Mike Lowry.

[Pete330v2]

And the equally strong Connacht Squad:

15. Santiago Cordero (5)
14. Mack Hansen (35)
13. Piers O'Conor (3)
12. Bundee Aki (139)
11. Shayne Bolton (15)
10. Josh Ioane (2)
9. Ben Murphy (3)
1. Denis Buckley (251)
2. Dave Heffernan (203)
3. Finlay Bealham (206)
4. Joe Joyce (22)
5. Josh Murphy (21)
6. Cian Prendergast (71) (C)
7. Sean O’Brien (9)
8. Paul Boyle (95)

16. Dylan Tierney-Martin (39)
17. Peter Dooley (40)
18. Temi Lasisi (1)
19. Oisín Dowling (62)
20. David O’Connor (2)
21. Caolin Blade (195)
22. Cathal Forde (34)
23. Conor Oliver (88)

[Redman]

A strong Ulster side named for the Connacht game and better still a side with a decent front row

(1-8) Andrew Warwick, John Andrew, Tom O’Toole, Iain Henderson (C), Kieran Treadwell, David McCann, Sean Reffell, Nick Timoney;

(15-9) Ethan McIlroy, Werner Kok, Stewart Moore, Jude Postlethwaite, Jacob Stockdale, Aidan Morgan, John Cooney

Replacements: James McCormick, Callum Reid, Corrie Barrett, Alan O’Connor, Marcus Rea, Nathan Doak, Ben Carson, Mike Lowry.

Smacks of 'must win'.

Not convinced we have a great deal of impact off the bench. Maybe a bit of creativity with Lowry but that's it.

The totally incomprehensible selection policy regarding Marcus Rea continues. I'm a big fan and while he's probably not helped himself at times, he's been shockingly mismanaged over the last 4-5 years. For me, he's a starter not a finisher.

Even if he's exhausted I would have thought McNabery for 20 mins off the bench would have been a better bench option. At least it would give Ulster a Plan B.

[Maine man]

Would liked to have had Izzy available for this game.

[Maine man]

Addison has just scored for Sale. I wish he was still at Ulster. But I understand why he left. Just a shame and an absolute top bloke into the bargain.

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