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Japan vs England 22nd June 2024

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lostinwales
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Japan vs England 22nd June 2024 - Page 3 Empty Japan vs England 22nd June 2024

Post by Rugby Fan Fri Jun 21, 2024 11:55 pm

First topic message reminder :

England

15. George Furbank
14. Immanuel Feyi-Waboso
13. Henry Slade - vice-captain
12. Ollie Lawrence
11. Tommy Freeman
10. Marcus Smith
9. Alex Mitchell

1. Bevan Rodd
2. Jamie George - captain
3. Dan Cole
4. Maro Itoje - vice-captain
5. George Martin
6. Chandler Cunningham-South
7. Sam Underhill
8. Ben Earl - vice-captain

Replacements
16. Theo Dan
17. Joe Marler - vice-captain
18. Will Stuart
19. Charlie Ewels
20. Tom Curry
21. Harry Randall
22. Fin Smith
23. Tom Roebuck

Japan

15. Yoshitaka Yazaki
14. Jone Naikabula
13. Dylan Riley
12. Tomoki Osada
11. Koga Nezuka
10. Lee Seung-sin
9. Naoto Saito

1. Takayoshi Mohara
2. Mamoru Harada
3. Shuhei Takeuchi
4. Sanaila Waqa
5. Warner Dearns
6. Michael Leitch
7. Tiennan Costley
8. Faulua Makisi

Replacements
Atsushi Sakate
Shogo Miura
Keijiro Tamefusa
Amanaki Saumaki
Kai Yamamoto
Shinobu Fujiwara
Rikiya Matsuda
Samisoni Tua

It's a young and inexperienced Japan team. Prop Mohara, hooker Harada, Costley the open-side, and Yazaki the full back are four uncapped players in the starting XV. There's been a lot of hype about Yazaki, who is only 20, and still playing university rugby rather than Top League. He has been in national training camps, and did feature for Japan XV in April's World Rugby Pacific Challenge. All the talk ahead of the match is about Japan looking to play fast.

The game is at the Japan National Stadium in the centre of Tokyo. That's where the Rugby World Cup final was due to be held but it wasn't ready in time, so the main matches were switched to Yokohama. That means none of the England players have been to this venue before. It has a capacity of 68,000, or up to 80,000 if they put seating on the running track but they probably won't do that. Tickets are still available, but there should be a big crowd. More than 60,000 turned out when Japan played the All Blacks in 2022 (which NZ only just won, with a score of 31-38).

The rainfront threatening Tokyo came back and dumped on us on Friday. It's officially start of the annual rainy season but it's expected stay dry tomorrow. For all the talk of terrible humidity, the rain has cleared the air a bit, so it might not be as muggy as feared.


Last edited by Rugby Fan on Sat Jun 22, 2024 1:04 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:54 pm

Still not a great game by England. A somewhat comfortable scoreline, but Japan made England earn most of their yards.

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Post by Cumbrian Sat Jun 22, 2024 6:55 pm

Difficult to know what to take from that, Japan were pretty disappointing and England sort of bludgeoned them. There were some nicely taken tries though.

Discipline (as ever) is a concern. How have we ended up with red and yellow cards in a match that we rarely looked threatened in?
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Post by mountain man Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:10 pm

Yellow for Marcus Smith for tackle off ball near try line so it happens.
Red for Ewels for clearout. I'm not defending him in any shape but slightly surprised upgraded to red. Was stupid not malicious and seen plenty like that not given red.

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Post by Mr Bounce Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:16 pm

Whatever re Ewels' card decision, I really don't want him in an England shirt again.

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Post by mountain man Sat Jun 22, 2024 7:24 pm

Mr Bounce wrote:Whatever re Ewels' card decision, I really don't want him in an England shirt again.

Yeah some of us always said that. Good club player, not an Int and that's discipline aside. His time surely over now.

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Post by Geordie Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:25 pm

I would say Ewels is there solely as Chessum isn't.

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Post by mountain man Sat Jun 22, 2024 8:27 pm

Geordie wrote:I would say Ewels is there solely as Chessum isn't.

Chessum was wearing number 5 for Japan.

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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jun 22, 2024 10:18 pm

Thinking back on the match, I really don't recall Ollie Lawrence doing much, except perhaps, that take off the back of the line out. I don't think there were many stand-outs, but in general the team was on a decent level. Glad the half backs seemed to work well.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:21 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
doctor_grey wrote:Will England need to bring in extra cover since it is doubtful Ewels would be able to play in NZ?
The usual touring convention is that red carded players can't be replaced.
Ignore me. Apparently, England have got out the call-up list.

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Post by lostinwales Sun Jun 23, 2024 1:41 am

Only saw highlights and at first glance thought the M Smith early tackle might have been a penalty try. Otherwise his highlight reels were very impressive.

We are unlikely to beat NZ but we might get some very competitive games. The AB's just don't have the aura they used to.

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Post by Poorfour Sun Jun 23, 2024 3:33 am

lostinwales wrote:Only saw highlights and at first glance thought the M Smith early tackle might have been a penalty try. Otherwise his highlight reels were very impressive.

We are unlikely to beat NZ but we might get some very competitive games. The AB's just don't have the aura they used to.

The ref to TMO discussion was that Cole was there to provide cover. I think Smith’s early tackle was what gave Cole the chance to get across; if so, it was probably the right intervention for all it cost a YC.
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Post by Recwatcher16 Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:56 am

The red card was a joke, Ewels tackle hit Leitch above the knee, not below it, which is the actual dangerous act. Leitch had entered the ruck gate at the very widest edge before moving back centre to the ruck and Ewels, already committed overstretched to make the tackle.

Leitch was obviously hurt in the tackle but clearly not enough to leave the pitch. Genuine injuries are part of the game but players staying down a few seconds longer to influence refs is only going to increase if these type of sanctions are going to be dished out.
There were a couple of instances where japanese players arriving at the ruck piled off their feet at speed but didn't appear to contact anyone, more by luck than judgement.

Not impressed but seems to be the way the game is going.

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Post by formerly known as Sam Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:26 am

Ewels is clumsy and a bit unlucky. Smith mistimes the tackle which is also clumsy and also a bit panicky. In general the ref was very picky and didn't like competition at the breakdown which didn't help us much.

Hopefully we've now blown off the rust after a few weeks off and can show a more clinical side Vs the ABs.

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Post by mountain man Sun Jun 23, 2024 8:00 am

I was a bit surprised yellow was upgraded to red as I've seen plenty like that which been given yellow at most and sometimes only a pen.
Clumsy more than malicious for sure. However two reds now in two matches for England by Ewels means his time up I suspect.

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Post by RiscaGame Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:40 am

I can’t see how anybody can defend Ewels

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Jun 23, 2024 5:46 pm

The weird thing about Ewels is he doesn't have a reputation for overly dirty play and he had a good season, which also means he wasn't a penalty machine.  The good thing for him is no one is suggesting it was vicious or done in a fit of rage.  He simply screwed up, and badly.  Again.

The odd thing is he deliberately dove into/over that ruck which was already a penalty.  No one mentions that, at least so far.  Hitting some guys legs like that is good for my business, which is another way of saying that was dangerous play.   I don't care whether right above or below the knee, if the feet of the person being cleaned out are firmly planted in the ground and supporting weight, then there is no give when the leg is impacted, and therefore, the risk is much higher.  

I am sure Ewels, for all he has played well in the Premiership, is just sloppy and not malicious.  But at an England level it can't continue.  I hope he can continue his Premiership career and do well.  Just well enough to lose to the inevitable Premiership champions...

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Post by Recwatcher16 Sun Jun 23, 2024 6:28 pm

There was no intentional or unintentional foul play in that tackle. All players go off their feet at point of contact at every ruck but Leitch moved in that instant before tackle and Ewels was over extended in reaching the player. That's was the sum of it.

Ewels is a bright bloke he won't let poor ref decisions affect him or his form.

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Post by hugehandoff Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:03 pm

RiscaGame wrote:I can’t see how anybody can defend Ewels

I am with you on this one. I thought it was an awful and dangerous clear out from an offside position. No arms and aimed at Leitch's knee which could have caused a very serious injury. Deserves to go home now.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Jun 23, 2024 9:49 pm

Just to help wrap some more context around this game, how good was this Japanese team? I know a lot of their players are young and new-ish to international sport.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun Jun 23, 2024 10:23 pm

doctor_grey wrote:... Hitting some guys legs like that is good for my business...

On that business note, have you seen some of the reports on Tom Curry?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/06/20/tom-curry-injury-comeback-freakish-england-sale-japan/

‘Beyond what is possible’ – Full extent of Tom Curry’s ‘freakish’ injury comeback uncovered

Country’s top hip surgeon reveals how England and Sale flanker has returned from injury that was ‘as bad as it gets for a sportsman’

There are two things worth noting about Professor Damian Griffin. Firstly, he is this country’s preeminent hip surgeon who has operated on dozens of top-end athletes. Secondly, he is not a man who deals in hyperbole.

So when Griffin, the Professor of Trauma and Orthopaedic Surgery at Warwick Medical School, states that Tom Curry returning to international rugby just six months after undergoing one of his most challenging ever operations is “spectacular”, it carries significant weight. Here Telegraph Sport is taken behind the scenes on Curry’s remarkable comeback from a career-threatening injury with Griffin, Sale Sharks physio Navdeep Sandhu and Jonas Dodoo, a sprint coach at Speedworks.

‘Not moving as he should’
Before being named on the bench for England’s opening tour match against Japan on Saturday, Curry’s last international involvement was winning his 50th cap in the World Cup third place play-off against Argentina last October. It would prove to be the last time that he would play rugby until the start of June. It would prove to be the last time he played rugby for another six months.

Curry was never far from the headlines at the World Cup whether it was being sent off three minutes into England’s opening game against Argentina to accusing South Africa hooker Bongi Mbonambi of racially abusing him in the semi-final.

Watching from afar, Sandhu noticed something else: Curry was hobbling when he was coming off the pitch. When he returned to Sale’s training base in Carrington last November he remained in significant discomfort when Sandhu carried out a re-entry medical. “When we got our hands on him you could feel the hip was not moving as it should,” Sandhu said. “Then you do certain tests. Firstly it was not really moving and secondly the end-feel was very hard and bony.”

A scan was ordered where the true extent of the problem was revealed. “It was like a scene from a comedy film,” Sandhu said. “Normally when you get a scan, it is just an A4 piece of paper but this one unravelled and it kept falling down with more and more frames.” Curry described the results as “a bit of a car crash”.

This was when they contacted Griffin. Hip operations are commonly carried out on adults aged 60 to 80, but Griffin became the first surgeon in the United Kingdom to specialise in athletes. “I got into that because there was no one doing that in the UK, hardly anyone in the world,” Griffin said. “Even now there are only a very small number of us who do this as our main event.” What was once a niche sideline became ever busier as he operated on footballers, rugby players, tennis players, golfers and track and field athletes.

Even so Professor Griffin was taken aback by the scale of the damage. “In terms of severity, Tom was at the most severe end,” Griffin said. “A lot of surgeons would look at him and say it is not going to work, that is just beyond what is possible.”

Curry had a condition called femoroacetabular impingement syndrome. Effectively, some people have a hip joint where the ball is not entirely round. Curry’s, appropriately, was shaped more like a rugby ball than a football, which as Griffin explains had severe consequences.

“If you don’t have a completely round ball then as it rotates it jams in the socket and that will limit your range of movement,” Griffin said. “Also it means you get some uneven wear and tear inside the joint. The damage in Tom’s hip was pretty extensive. There was a lot of wear of the cartilage and he had grown some substantial areas of extra bone.”

Griffin laid out four options: carry on in discomfort, retire, repair via surgery or replace, through the type of metal resurfacing that Andy Murray had carried out. The risk with surgery is when it is not successful and you need to replace the hip anyway. “It was almost like a grieving process at first,” Sandhu said. “Damian told us this is as bad as it gets for a sportsman’s hip. It was a lot to take in for a 25-year-old.”

Still they chose arthroscopic - or keyhole - surgery. The operation on December 4 at the Harley Street Specialist Hospital was scheduled to last two hours. It lasted more than six as Griffin as he reshaped the ball of Curry’s hip using a high speed micro burr and repaired the labrum and cartilage using a stem cell transplant.  “Arthroscopic surgery in the hip is a pretty specialised area that is pretty rare,” Griffin said. “I was doing stuff at the most challenging end of that kind of surgery. For that reason the surgery took several hours.”

‘The most mentally resilient player ever’
The surgery was a success but that was less than half the battle. Now the long, arduous rehabilitation process would begin. Even accounting for what Sandhu calls Curry’s “freakish” ability to put on muscle, there are no shortcuts in rehab. You get out exactly what you put in.

“Tom is easily the most mentally resilient player I have ever worked with,” Sandhu said. “The ball rolled really quickly after the first eight weeks when you are letting the joint settle. The muscles started coming back and the movement feels easier. Eventually when we saw Damian four months post surgery, he was amazed. He said, ‘I have not seen someone look this good a year post surgery, even two years post surgery and you are four months’.”

Again building muscle and strength was only part of the process. The next stage was getting Curry back to his explosive best. Enter Dodoo and his Speedworks camp in Loughborough, where Curry started visiting at the end of March.



Dodoo compares Curry at the start of the process to a flat football: you can still kick it but it isn’t going to travel very far.

“The way he plays is a really fast, explosive, elastic player, but he had lost that explosivity and that elasticity,” Dodoo said. “Another way to look at it is that a tractor produces a lot of force. The amount of horsepower you can get out of a tractor versus a Ferrari might not be that different but the Ferrari can produce all that force really, really quickly.”

This was as much psychological as it was physiological with the surgery leaving scars in more ways than one. “The man fears nothing,” Dodoo said. “Just look at what he does with his face. But subconsciously his body still did not fully trust that limb. It is a result of trauma. As soon as you have someone use a knife to cut into your body and move things around your body will downgrade that area.

“Your body needs confidence and clarity to connect with that area, otherwise it is almost like you are having internal pins and needles. First you need to get your tissue back and your strength back and then regain your limb and coordination and explosivity.”
‘This boy is doing things I never expected’

That meant Curry coming down to Loughborough once a week where he was put through a gauntlet of exercises from resisted sprints to plyometrics, throwing medicine balls and eventually full-on sprints with changes of direction. By May, Dodoo had to shift the goalposts and brought Curry down for a whole week in Loughborough.

“His target was to be back for next season,” Dodoo said. “When we first spoke, being back for the end of the Premiership season was a ridiculous goal and going away with England was silly to even think about. He just wanted to be ready for pre-season with Sale. But by the end of May, I was like ‘this boy is doing things that I never expected him to do’.”

By now, Curry was physically ready to return for Sale’s final regular season match away to Saracens, but chose to have an extra week’s training before making his comeback as a replacement in the semi-final defeat at Bath, making a trademark hit on Josh Bayliss.

“He was like a hurricane for 35 minutes,” Sandhu said. “Bayliss had all the momentum on his side and Tom just melted him. That was the point at which I could breathe again because you could see he was back.”

Griffin, Sandhu and Dodoo have all played a key role in his comeback, but are clear that all the credit belongs to Curry alone. In Sale’s physio room at Carrington, there are various pictures of players with a description below. Manu Tuilagi, a frequent visitor, has “positivity” next to his name. Curry’s is “commitment”.

“He is committed to the ‘nth’ degree,” Sandhu said. “That commitment engulfs positivity and resilience. It is the umbrella that everything else sits under.”

Griffin has seen players return quicker from hip surgery but none with as severe and complicated an issue as was facing Curry. “When I saw him at three or four months I was seriously impressed how far along he was,” Griffin said. “To be playing international rugby six months on is really spectacularly good.”

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Post by doctor_grey Mon Jun 24, 2024 7:59 am

Rather than quote your article, I have to say the article is very true to life with athletes, and the hyper-driven ones usually have the shortest recovery as well as the highest pain threshold. Unfortunately, they also represent a higher incidence of repeat customers.

I participated in that type of procedure in the end of April. The rounding (re-shaping) the head of the bone is very specialised work and there are a small number of top-notch docs who do that, two of whom I fortunately can work with. The dimensions we are discussing are measured in fractions of a millimeter, and one slight error can be the difference between a successful procedure and something worse. This is also an evolving area of surgery. Real fascinating stuff.

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Post by nlpnlp Sat Jun 29, 2024 9:35 am

hugehandoff wrote:
RiscaGame wrote:I can’t see how anybody can defend Ewels

I am with you on this one. I thought it was an awful and dangerous clear out from an offside position. No arms and aimed at Leitch's knee which could have caused a very serious injury. Deserves to go home now.

I am sorry but I would have to query whether or not you have ever played a game of competitive rugby.  Leitch clearly dips to go in to jackal the ball and then decides better of it and pulls back.  Ewels sees Leitch start to go for the jackal and dives in to hit him chest to chest to clear him out, but as Leitch pulls back hits him on the leg.  Yes he could have hurt Leitch, but there was very clearly no intent to commit a foul or injure Leitch.  Recwatcher16 described it pretty perfectly.  The issue is that players are allowed to attack the breakdown, dip their head and shoulders below their hips, put their hands on the ball well after a ruck has been formed.  It is increasingly difficult for players to clear out defenders and their only option is to fly in and hit hard, with very little margin for error. How often do you see players go flying over the top of a ruck off their feet when a defending player pulls out and you hear the referee say that there is no penalty as the defender pulled out?

To suggest Ewels is a dirty player who deliberately tried to end another players career is quite frankly ridiculous and shows a complete lack of understanding for the game.  But this is a discussion website and everyone is entitled to their opinion and I may be wrong and Ewels may be the butcher of Bath.

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Post by Poorfour Sat Jun 29, 2024 4:48 pm

I doubt it was a deliberate attempt to injure Leitch, but it was illegal in almost every way it could have been.

Ewels enters from almost the Japanese side of the ruck, he makes no attempt to wrap and his point of contact is one where the officials have been instructed to view it harshly because of the risk of injury.

Defend the player by all means, though two red cards in successive appearances suggests there’s a severe issue with his judgement and timing for international rugby, but the clearout itself is a pretty clear cut red.
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Post by doctor_grey Sat Jun 29, 2024 8:50 pm

Poorfour wrote:I doubt it was a deliberate attempt to injure Leitch, but it was illegal in almost every way it could have been.

Ewels enters from almost the Japanese side of the ruck, he makes no attempt to wrap and his point of contact is one where the officials have been instructed to view it harshly because of the risk of injury.

Defend the player by all means, though two red cards in successive appearances suggests there’s a severe issue with his judgement and timing for international rugby, but the clearout itself is a pretty clear cut red.
I think most of the nonsense with players going out to deliberately injure someone has pretty much left the sport, if for no other reason that they are all professionals going out to do their job.  In a physical sport there will always be a rush of blood or things that build up during a match or season, but even then the reactions are usually less over the top.  

For me Ewels was sloppy in the extreme and at the international level one has to not just be better, but also smarter.  A player can't play 10 minutes of Rugby across two matches and earn two reds.  Shame because he has been a good player for Bath and could have made a positive impact.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jun 29, 2024 11:57 pm

Japan played the Maori All Blacks today, and lost 36-10. It was a less experienced selection than the side which faced England but it played, and lost, much the same way.

Japan came out of the blocks, and scored first. In the first 20 minutes, they probably should have had a bigger lead. Instead, the Maori got a couple of tries, and that seemed to make Japan lose composure, trying too hard to get back. Japan had a decent scrum but flunked a lot of line-outs.

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Post by doctor_grey Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:41 am

Rugby Fan wrote:Japan played the Maori All Blacks today, and lost 36-10. It was a less experienced selection than the side which faced England but it played, and lost, much the same way.

Japan came out of the blocks, and scored first. In the first 20 minutes, they probably should have had a bigger lead. Instead, the Maori got a couple of tries, and that seemed to make Japan lose composure, trying too hard to get back. Japan had a decent scrum but flunked a lot of line-outs.
What do you think this means for England-ABs? To wit, what - if anything - does that mean for the level of the Japan squad Eddie Jones put out against England, and the consequent assessment of the value of the win over Japan? Or maybe I am extrapolating from logical to lala land?

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Post by Rugby Fan Sun Jun 30, 2024 2:05 pm

doctor_grey wrote:What do you think this means for England-ABs?   To wit, what - if anything - does that mean for the level of the Japan squad Eddie Jones put out against England, and the consequent assessment of the value of the win over Japan?  Or maybe I am extrapolating from logical to lala land?  



There's not much to read into the match. The Maori side had seen Japan's tactics against England, so were better-prepared to handle them. For instance, every time Japan got a penalty, a Maori player would throw or kick the ball away, to stop a quick tap. On a couple of occasions, the referee marched them back but it was a deliberate ploy, so probably should have been punished more harshly.

It's a Japan XV in the two matches withthe Maori, rather than flying under the national team flag. Eight of the 23 man squad have never been capped for Japan, and five only made their debuts last weekend. There were only five foreign-born players, and three of those were educatd in Japan. One of the Fiji born lads has a Fijian father who used to play for Japan.

So, it was a very raw side, and mainly shows how Japan lacks a consistent way of developing young players into a professional standard. Japan didn't qualify for the World Rugby U20 Championship. They will play in the "B" competition which starts on Tuesday, alongside Samoa, Hong Kong China, Scotland, USA, Uruguay, Netherlands, and Kenya.




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Japan vs England 22nd June 2024 - Page 3 Empty Re: Japan vs England 22nd June 2024

Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:36 pm

Not worth starting another thread but Japan are leading the Maori All Blacks 18-14 with 14 minutes to go. The Maori have just scored a converted try, so have some momentum.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:44 pm

Maori get a yellow card for a dangerous lower leg tackle tackle roll, and the Japan XV make it 21-14 with eight minutes to go.

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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:49 pm

Japan had penalty advantage, and tried to thread a grubber through. It hit a Maori player, and the referee blew straight up. Unfortunately, it had gone straight to a Japanese player, who was clear through to the line, so keeping the advantage would have been appreciated.

It all worked out, though. From the penalty, Japan drove through for a try, to make it 26-14


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Post by Rugby Fan Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:53 pm

29-14 at full time

That's the first win for a Japan side against the Maori.

Eddie Jones all smiles.


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Post by Rugby Fan Sun Jul 07, 2024 11:35 am

Highlights video. Japan XV were good value for their win, leading the match from the first try. They held the Maori scoreless in the first half. A late yellow card in the half meant Japan went down to 14, and the NZ side got their best passage of play at the beginning of the second half. After that, Japan pushed out to 18-7. The Maori made it interesting, getting back to 18-14 with 15 minutes to go but Japan were never seriously troubled again.


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