The Haka - how would you handle it?

First topic message reminder :

Thought I would start a thread on the most recognisable rugby tradition in the world and how other teams have decided to react to it.

The Haka is seen as a challenge laid open to the opponents and there have been some famous acceptances of this challenge over the years:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Ireland - Willie Anderson brings his team up to the Haka. This has since been outlawed with fines for encroaching within 10 metres.

Scotland - Chris Hoy brings on the match ball. Err......very confrontational!

There are others of course like England in 97 and France in 2007, as well as the ABs refusal to come out on the pitch to do the Haka in Wales

So the question is - how would you like your team to face the challenge and what have been your favourites?

Glas a du wrote:The 'challange' or war dance is a feature of many cultures. In Wales the bards of rival warlords would engage in verbal jousting. Perhaps the Welsh Captain should walk up to a mic and read some cynghanedd to them.

"Yma heddi a'ch haka, chi yn groch sy'n gwaeddu
ond os dewch yn awr i'r maes, cawch weld gwaedu"

or something like that.

The whole point of the Haka is a show of disrespect. It is designed to put teams off and to motivate the All Blacks. Stag and others that trot out these platitudes in favour are just playing into their hands, exactly where they want you to be. In days of old, the other "team" would respond with their own challenge. For the ABs to state that any facing up to their folk dancing is disrespectful is logically constipated.

In fact the old war challenge of Welsh archers at Crecy and Agincourt was the old 'v' sign or two finger salute. They would show their opponents two fingers as if to say, "this is all I need to kill you". Therefore a rank of players standing there displaying the v sign would be an eloquent echo of past traditions.

I like this post. perhaps we could have a competition nationwide to come up with a song and dance to rival the Hacarena, perhaps the old classic 'knees up mother brown' with traditional two fingered salute straight after, this would only be applicable to the English rugby team of course, the Irish could do something from Riverdance.

Glas a du wrote: Stag and others that trot out these platitudes in favour are just playing into their hands, exactly where they want you to be.

Really? I'm happy enough to be there. I find it a really enjoyable spectacle that some people spend WAY too much time fretting about.

Just to clarify – I don’t think it should be done away with, particularly. I know it’s a popular spectacle, and I don’t think things should stay or go based solely on my tastes.

I just wanted to say I don’t think it’s a binary thing. I don’t think it’s an unfair, Machiavellian advantage that we should overthrow, but equally I don’t think you have to be riveted by it to be a “true rugby fan”.

Meh.

snoopster wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:the sanctioning of Grewcock, (I think it was - correct me if I'm wrong) for biting Kevin Mealamu.

They never did explain why Saint Kevvy of the Headbutt put his fingers in Grewcock's mouth, did they?

It's too funny that you can honestly try to spin this one ... I suppose that in 2003 November tests that an all black violently attacked Simon Shaw's sprigs with his backbone whilst lying in a ruck?

Glas a du wrote:In fact the old war challenge of Welsh archers at Crecy and Agincourt was the old 'v' sign or two finger salute. They would show their opponents two fingers as if to say, "this is all I need to kill you". Therefore a rank of players standing there displaying the v sign would be an eloquent echo of past traditions.

Not sure how comfortable I'd feel sticking my index and middle finger up to the Haka while it's being performed metres away

I'm among those who enjoy the Haka but regardless I find the AB's obsession with forcing the opposition to watch it without the right to respond to be highly hypocritical, especially if playing in said-opposition's backyard. For one thing I do not agree with those who say it is performed entirely out of respectful tradition. It's as much of a mental mindgame as anything else, so it's only fair for the opposition to be allowed a similarity. Secondly as I've said the concept of the Haka is to be responded to according to Maori tradition.

rugbydreamer wrote:Nottins, TheGG - both of you, please stop this petty squabbling. It started on another thread which has since ended. Don't bring it onto this thread. Ta.

Dreamer, please can you explain which of the site rules has been broken in this thread ? I've seen plenty of "bickering" on the Dew Drop Inn threads, but I haven't seen you issue a warning in there.

Nottins - when have I said you broke any site rules? I've asked you to leave the squabble that started on another thread there. Why bring it into this thread?

Also, meant to add: If you have any issues with what I've said or how this board is currently being moderated, please feel free to PM me or any of the other rugby mods or a member of the Admin team. Thank you.

I've not brought a squabble onto here. I just replied to a comment that was made and also added to another one which the same poster made, which snoopster also made a comment along the same lines.

Right that's fine then nottins, I just didn't want any trouble to start, however innocently on this thread. I hope you can understand that. Thank you.

TheGreyGhost wrote:

snoopster wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:the sanctioning of Grewcock, (I think it was - correct me if I'm wrong) for biting Kevin Mealamu.

They never did explain why Saint Kevvy of the Headbutt put his fingers in Grewcock's mouth, did they?

It's too funny that you can honestly try to spin this one ... I suppose that in 2003 November tests that an all black violently attacked Simon Shaw's sprigs with his backbone whilst lying in a ruck?

Good work on changing the subject - we better not dwell on why Saint Kevvy was shoving his fingers in players' faces while their arms were pinned.

Glas a du wrote:
The whole point of the Haka is a show of disrespect. It is designed to put teams off and to motivate the All Blacks. Stag and others that trot out these platitudes in favour are just playing into their hands, exactly where they want you to be. In days of old, the other "team" would respond with their own challenge. For the ABs to state that any facing up to their folk dancing is disrespectful is logically constipated.

Man tickets to see the All Blacks are expensive enough. If I'm paying that, I want to see the Haka! One of the great sights in sport.

As for disrespect, no doubt. So let the players internalise it and give it right back to them on the pitch. All the sides that have beaten the All Blacks and beaten them well don't seem to bother with a response or be bothered about the whole thing in the first place.

snoopster wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:

snoopster wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:the sanctioning of Grewcock, (I think it was - correct me if I'm wrong) for biting Kevin Mealamu.

They never did explain why Saint Kevvy of the Headbutt put his fingers in Grewcock's mouth, did they?

It's too funny that you can honestly try to spin this one ... I suppose that in 2003 November tests that an all black violently attacked Simon Shaw's sprigs with his backbone whilst lying in a ruck?

Good work on changing the subject - we better not dwell on why Saint Kevvy was shoving his fingers in players' faces while their arms were pinned.

Snoopster - this is a thread about the Haka, please let's try and keep on topic.

And as a point, that doesn't just apply to Snoopster, that applies to everyone. Ta.

Well, actually Campese used to walk about under the goal posts during the Haka. Just ingore it as other crowd noise.

But, this is how to respond to the Haka. From the RWC 2003:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K95oxWbvBA

rugbydreamer wrote:Snoopster - this is a thread about the Haka, please let's try and keep on topic.

And as a point, that doesn't just apply to Snoopster, that applies to everyone. Ta.

sorry, I realised I shouldn't have posted after I clicked send and not got dragged off topic by greyghost's usual attempts to drag most topics he posts into digs at England.

doctor_grey wrote:But, this is how to respond to the Haka. From the RWC 2003:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K95oxWbvBA

Absolutely. Spine tingling.

Great find on that one Doctor Grey

Snoopster - I'm pretty sure just sorry would have sufficed there, but thank you anyway.

All posters are entitled to their opinions, but like all things, there's a time and place for them.

Notch wrote:

Glas a du wrote:
The whole point of the Haka is a show of disrespect. It is designed to put teams off and to motivate the All Blacks. Stag and others that trot out these platitudes in favour are just playing into their hands, exactly where they want you to be. In days of old, the other "team" would respond with their own challenge. For the ABs to state that any facing up to their folk dancing is disrespectful is logically constipated.

Man tickets to see the All Blacks are expensive enough. If I'm paying that, I want to see the Haka! One of the great sights in sport.

As for disrespect, no doubt. So let the players internalise it and give it right back to them on the pitch. All the sides that have beaten the All Blacks and beaten them well don't seem to bother with a response or be bothered about the whole thing in the first place.

Yes, I'm not saying they shouldn't do it. I'm saying they should stop acting like a bunch of spoilt kids if somebody engages in a bit of counter psychologics.

I'm not disrespecting the Haka by saying this but I see it so often these days that the novelty has worn off it has become my cue to make a brew.

I have gotta say that when I created this thread this morning, I didnt think it would become so popular to get to 3 pages long.

Cymroglan wrote:it has become my cue to make a brew.

I want that on a T-Shirt...

The Haka: My Cue to Make a Brew

I remember back in the early nineties (I think it was early) that Cockerill was the first player to advance on the Haka. He got right up in Norm Hewitt's grill (we're talking maybe 4 or 5 inches) during the Haka and it went down like a poo sandwich.

It spawned a couple of off field incidents between the pair that are detailed in Cockerills autobiography.

The one thing I don't get with the Haka is that it's like a big "come on", and yet apparently, if you do anything other than just stand there it's deemed disrespectful.

The way I see it is that if you're going to stand there giving it the Billy-big-bollix, you get what you get in way of a response - you don't get to lay down ground rules as to what opponents should or shouldn't do, even if that does include chucking a bit of grass.

PJHolybloke wrote:I remember back in the early nineties (I think it was early) that Cockerill was the first player to advance on the Haka. He got right up in Norm Hewitt's grill (we're talking maybe 4 or 5 inches) during the Haka and it went down like a poo sandwich.

It spawned a couple of off field incidents between the pair that are detailed in Cockerills autobiography.

The one thing I don't get with the Haka is that it's like a big "come on", and yet apparently, if you do anything other than just stand there it's deemed disrespectful.

The way I see it is that if you're going to stand there giving it the Billy-big-bollix, you get what you get in way of a response - you don't get to lay down ground rules as to what opponents should or shouldn't do, even if that does include chucking a bit of grass.

Well said PJ. The Haka is a challenge, you reply to it however you want. I think Fran Cotton had it right.

There is no disrespect in the Haka. Only the best players in the world from their respective country will get to face the AB Haka. It's a traditional challenge and it is intended to honour the opposition as worthy opponents on the field of competition. Yes it's declaring yourself and where you came from and a rallying focal point, but it could and should be seen as Clive Woodward said as a motivational tool for both teams.

Personally I think it should be performed instead of the dreary outdated and irrelevant New Zealand national anthem.

Hobo wrote:I have gotta say that when I created this thread this morning, I didnt think it would become so popular to get to 3 pages long.

You're obviously new to this rugby forum stuff!

Hobo wrote:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Hobo. Hmm, that sounds very much like a Welshman to me?

Hoary subject but always thought the AB refusal to allow a host country sing it's anthem as the final act before kick off is the most disrespectful act of all. It's a sporting tradition the world over and has been for a lot longer than the AB's have been serving up their version of the Haka.

The Kiwi's can do what they like on their patch and should expect visitors honor it but guests should behave better. In that context, can see nothing wrong with England fans singing their own anthem in their own backyard.

Of course, the best response is to stick it up 'em.

NewTraditionalHaka wrote:

Hobo wrote:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Hobo. Hmm, that sounds very much like a Welshman to me?

Hoary subject but always thought the AB refusal to allow a host country sing it's anthem as the final act before kick off is the most disrespectful act of all. It's a sporting tradition the world over and has been for a lot longer than the AB's have been serving up their version of the Haka.

The Kiwi's can do what they like on their patch and should expect visitors honor it but guests should behave better. In that context, can see nothing wrong with England fans singing their own anthem in their own backyard.

Of course, the best response is to stick it up 'em.

Actually when the ABs started doing the haka singing anthems had yet to become a sporting custom . Otherwise, the crowd can do what they want to, they've paid to be there after all.

TheGreyGhost wrote:There is no disrespect in the Haka. Only the best players in the world from their respective country will get to face the AB Haka. It's a traditional challenge and it is intended to honour the opposition as worthy opponents on the field of competition. Yes it's declaring yourself and where you came from and a rallying focal point, but it could and should be seen as Clive Woodward said as a motivational tool for both teams.

TGG, strong words, softly spoken. I think you have the nail firmly whacked on the head there.

It's a "Sword of Damocles" moment just seconds before the first dropout, the NZ XV get together and in complete unison begin a very tightly controlled but overtly agressive delivery of intent to their opposition. Their opponents meanwhile seem to have two choices, stay cool and pretend this wonderful piece of rugby tradition bordering on theatre means nothing - in which case they'll probably start the game under-done; or, alternatively, get worked up and get the adrenaline flowing so fast that they go into the first contact over-cooked and risk giving away a penalty = first blood NZ.

The idea of both teams using it as a "motivational tool" is ideal, but for the two reasons given above, perhaps moot?

I wouldn't ever be an advocate of removing the Haka from the game, but I do think that in order for it to remain valid on a level playing field, the challenged have to feel free and unfettered with regard to their response. In that sense it may leave NZ wondering what they will be faced with rather than the other way around?

Bring on the "come on" I reckon, but then see what "we're" going to do about it.

I think that's the only fair and proper way forward, what do you reckon?

Kiwireddevil wrote:

NewTraditionalHaka wrote:

Hobo wrote:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Hobo. Hmm, that sounds very much like a Welshman to me?

Hoary subject but always thought the AB refusal to allow a host country sing it's anthem as the final act before kick off is the most disrespectful act of all. It's a sporting tradition the world over and has been for a lot longer than the AB's have been serving up their version of the Haka.

The Kiwi's can do what they like on their patch and should expect visitors honor it but guests should behave better. In that context, can see nothing wrong with England fans singing their own anthem in their own backyard.

Of course, the best response is to stick it up 'em.

Actually when the ABs started doing the haka singing anthems had yet to become a sporting custom . Otherwise, the crowd can do what they want to, they've paid to be there after all.

I remember reading national anthems started to be played before rugby internationals after the All Blacks 1905 tour of the British Isles, when the Welsh fans sang Land of my Fathers in response... which is interesting when Hobo claims to find the England fans disrespectful for following on from that old, traditional response.

Kiwireddevil wrote:

NewTraditionalHaka wrote:

Hobo wrote:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Hobo. Hmm, that sounds very much like a Welshman to me?

Hoary subject but always thought the AB refusal to allow a host country sing it's anthem as the final act before kick off is the most disrespectful act of all. It's a sporting tradition the world over and has been for a lot longer than the AB's have been serving up their version of the Haka.

The Kiwi's can do what they like on their patch and should expect visitors honor it but guests should behave better. In that context, can see nothing wrong with England fans singing their own anthem in their own backyard.

Of course, the best response is to stick it up 'em.

Actually when the ABs started doing the haka singing anthems had yet to become a sporting custom . Otherwise, the crowd can do what they want to, they've paid to be there after all.

Interesting isn't it. It's reported that when the 'Originals' first toured in 1905 and perormed their Haka in front of the Welsh for the first time, they responded by singing their national anthem. There's tradition actually being formed. That's the blue print. 100 years later the AB's sulk in the sheds because the Welsh want to get back to it and exercise their rights as hosts.

Maybe the proper response is to tell 'em to behave themselves

Who? the Welsh?

Do any other NZ national sports teams (football/basketball etc - do the Haka, or is it confined to rugby?

The Kiwi League team do it.

The 's team do it only if they win the final.

Never seen any other Kiwi National Sports am do it.

TheGreyGhost wrote:Personally I think it should be performed instead of the dreary outdated and irrelevant New Zealand national anthem.

That's an excellent point. "It's our anthem". There would be even more pressure on the opponents just to stand there then.

welshjohn369 wrote:The Kiwi League team do it.

The 's team do it only if they win the final.

Never seen any other Kiwi National Sports am do it.

The Ice Hockey team do Ka Mate. On skates, on the ice - its an impressive sight. Though they then waste a couple of minutes while the zamboni tidies up the ice before the game starts. As mentioned the Kiwis (RL) do a haka, as do the Tall Blacks (basketball) and the Black Sticks (field hockey). FIFA bans all "pre-match displays" at World Cup time, though the All Whites considered doing it regardless.

Well I can honestly say I have never see the ice hockey and I imagine it would lokk tacky and ridiculous.

The All Whites may have consdiered it, but very wise not to do it, it is not their right home or away if the governing body say no.

welshjohn369 wrote:Well I can honestly say I have never see the ice hockey and I imagine it would lokk tacky and ridiculous.

Just type in Ice Blacks Haka in you tube and you'll see their Ice Hockey Team perform it. It looks far from rediculous. It looks just the same as it does in rugby, an intimidating but fantastic spectacle.

I'd prefer to google Jamaican Bobsleigh Team.

Another thing I find annoying is the countless sporting teams in NZ trying to get the "Blacks" and or the 'Ferns' in their title.

You are all aware that the 'ALL BLACKS' was a typing error in a UK newspaper report don't you? It should have have read "ALL BACKS".

Glas a du wrote:

TheGreyGhost wrote:Personally I think it should be performed instead of the dreary outdated and irrelevant New Zealand national anthem.

That's an excellent point. "It's our anthem". There would be even more pressure on the opponents just to stand there then.

But they'd not be facing each other - they'd both be lined up facing the crowd then and the home team would go last as well.

"Another thing I find annoying is the countless sporting teams in NZ trying to get the "Blacks" and or the 'Ferns' in their title."

Why does it annoy you? The fern is an emblem of NZ as is the iconic signature black kit.

It's like getting annoyed because more than one Welsh team uses the term "Dragon".

Or, that the Welsh U20 side use a horticultural symbol of Wales in referring to themselves as having Leeky defence.

A more appropriate emblem for the AB would be someone.....choking.

:-)

Great White wrote:A more appropriate emblem for the AB would be someone.....choking.

:-)

I didn't know an action could be an emblem . Besides, the NSW Waratahs and the South African cricket team have a lock on it already ...

TheGreyGhost wrote:"Another thing I find annoying is the countless sporting teams in NZ trying to get the "Blacks" and or the 'Ferns' in their title."

Why does it annoy you? The fern is an emblem of NZ as is the iconic signature black kit.

It's like getting annoyed because more than one Welsh team uses the term "Dragon".

Or, that the Welsh U20 side use a horticultural symbol of Wales in referring to themselves as having Leeky defence.

How many teams use the term Dragon?? or perhaps you are confusing the issue with what foreign media call Welsh teams? or are you as usual trying to WUM as per your usual behaviour on 606?

GG the whinging kiwi hiding among the ferns

Great White wrote:A more appropriate emblem for the AB would be someone.....choking.

:-)

TheGreyGhost wrote:Or, that the Welsh U20 side use a horticultural symbol of Wales in referring to themselves as having Leeky defence.

This is great stuff!

welshjohn - just a reminder that everyone gets a fresh start on this site. Please try to forget people's behaviour and old grudges from 606, we don't want them brought up on this site. Thank you.

You're right though, the media always jump on calling Welsh teams 'Dragons'. Does make sense though, with what's on our flag

doctor_grey wrote:Well, actually Campese used to walk about under the goal posts during the Haka. Just ingore it as other crowd noise.

But, this is how to respond to the Haka. From the RWC 2003:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K95oxWbvBA

Good old Campo had the right idea. Ignore it altogether. It's just for show for the crowd. Its probably the best way to "challenge" it too, at least it might urine off the ABs more if you just ignore it and you really should be allowed to.

Urine off? That's not what I typed.

Ah, but its what you meant