The Haka - how would you handle it?

First topic message reminder :

Thought I would start a thread on the most recognisable rugby tradition in the world and how other teams have decided to react to it.

The Haka is seen as a challenge laid open to the opponents and there have been some famous acceptances of this challenge over the years:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Ireland - Willie Anderson brings his team up to the Haka. This has since been outlawed with fines for encroaching within 10 metres.

Scotland - Chris Hoy brings on the match ball. Err......very confrontational!

There are others of course like England in 97 and France in 2007, as well as the ABs refusal to come out on the pitch to do the Haka in Wales

So the question is - how would you like your team to face the challenge and what have been your favourites?

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Now thats a tradition rugby could do without the Irish Presidents pre game walkabout

No! What makes Rugby Union so great are the different traditions. The pipe bands at murrayfield, the welsh hyms, the haka. These should be preserved and respected even if some find them annoying. I really can't understand why people want to get rid off these.

It's the playing of pop music after scoring, swallow diving and non traditional elements thats creeping into our game that we should be getting rid off.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Now thats a tradition rugby could do without the Irish Presidents pre game walkabout

Not even a tradition, it didn't start until the 90s.

I'm not sure what the definition of a tradition is, but I figure if you're old enough to remember when it didn't happen then it's not traditional.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Now thats a tradition rugby could do without the Irish Presidents pre game walkabout

I think you touch on a completely separate topic there.

Rugby is the sport we love because of things like the Haka, Welsh Hymns, Scottish Pipes and heaven forbid that blasted charriot

The day we lose traditions like that is the day a big piece of the game we all love dies.

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Now thats a tradition rugby could do without the Irish Presidents pre game walkabout

That wrecks my head. not only does it delay the match but it must also be a huge frustration for the players. Imagine getting yourself and your team mentally ready for a match only to be delayed be 15 min because she wants to meet all the players yet again.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:If Ireland wanted to take the wind out of New Zealand's sails after the haka, all they have to do is delay the President being introduced to the players until after the haka.

I will fight NZ's right to the haka every time, but that's one thing that annoys me. NZ won't allow their hosts to decide when the haka happens. It's only been an issue once, but an issue all the same.

Anyway, I think too much is made out of the whole thing. If you're going to discuss the Haka, I think it only fair that it should be discussed in conjunction with the Cibi, Siva Tau and Kailao. Otherwise it usually descends into a big NZ bash.

greybeard wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:If Ireland wanted to take the wind out of New Zealand's sails after the haka, all they have to do is delay the President being introduced to the players until after the haka.

I will fight NZ's right to the haka every time, but that's one thing that annoys me. NZ won't allow their hosts to decide when the haka happens. It's only been an issue once, but an issue all the same.

Anyway, I think too much is made out of the whole thing. If you're going to discuss the Haka, I think it only fair that it should be discussed in conjunction with the Cibi, Siva Tau and Kailao. Otherwise it usually descends into a big NZ bash.

Greybeard, a very valid point and I agree these discussions usual decend into pro/anti NZ before people really tackle the place of pre-game ceremony and its order.

roddersm wrote:It's the playing of pop music after scoring, swallow diving and non traditional elements thats creeping into our game that we should be getting rid off.

Now the playing of music after every score really gets my goat. The fact that points have been scored is enough. There's no need for them to play 'Sex on bloody Fire' or whatever.

I'll add that I have performed a haka at parties, and been cheered .

Chuckle. I'll bet you were. I assume people knew you weren't going to follow it by attempting to beat them up in their own home? Makes aaaaall the difference. Had you simply made rude faces, gestures and noises your reception might have been a little less friendly.

The increasing togetherness of Maori and Pakeha has been perhaps THE great achievement of NZ in the last 40 or so years.

By the way, have you ever seen a NZ tv series called (iirc) Seven Lessons with Mr Gormsby?

That video of the college game haka was brilliant, you can really see why it'd be intimidating jsut before a battle, espeically with fully grown men rather than school children.

Cowshot wrote:

I'll add that I have performed a haka at parties, and been cheered .

Chuckle. I'll bet you were. I assume people knew you weren't going to follow it by attempting to beat them up in their own home? Makes aaaaall the difference. Had you simply made rude faces, gestures and noises your reception might have been a little less friendly.

The increasing togetherness of Maori and Pakeha has been perhaps THE great achievement of NZ in the last 40 or so years.

By the way, have you ever seen a NZ tv series called (iirc) Seven Lessons with Mr Gormsby?

In fairness, given my inherent lack of rhythm I probably should have been booed for the performance . And luckily there were no te Reo speakers around to notice errors/omissions ...

7 Periods with Mr Gormsby was brilliant. A shame they only made 2 seasons (14 episodes). The second season ended not long before I moved to the UK in 2006.

Can we get back on topic please.

Either talk about the Haka or Tom Jones please

I'd completly ignore it. I'd do some groin or hammy stretches or a few drill down the other end of the pitch. I'd have no problem with them performing their pantomime but I don't see why the opposition feel the need to do anything. Do your own mental and physical preparations.

Hobo wrote:Can we get back on topic please.

Either talk about the Haka or Tom Jones please

Or

Thomas John Woodward

BATH_BTGOG wrote:Didn't Gareth Edwards do a swallow dive when he scored for the Baa baas?

There's a world of difference between diving to get in at the corner and showboating when there's no defender near you.

I was there when the welsh team stared down the Haka............totally theatrical.

However i was also there when the AB's did it slightly differently, they used to do it to the main stand!
Anyone who thinks that the Haka is just traditional, think again, it DOES give the AB's an edge, and speaking to a retired player, he swore that many of the Welsh team were terrified by the sight of South Seas Islanders sticking their tongues out.

For me it should be done before kick off but AFTER the anthems, and if Henry & Co. wont wear it tell 'em to do it in the car park.

ospreylian wrote:I was there when the welsh team stared down the Haka............totally theatrical.

For me it should be done before kick off but AFTER the anthems, and if Henry & Co. wont wear it tell 'em to do it in the car park.

That's how its done now

I've always believed that when the ABs play away from home they should do the Haka but then the home team should be allowed to sing their national anthem - they are the home team afterall.

I believe that was part of the problem when they did it behind closed doors against Wales.

It's all well and good respecting traditions but when you are the guests you should play by your hosts rules (within reason).

South Seas Islanders!!!

thats not very PC!

Kiwireddevil wrote:

ospreylian wrote:I was there when the welsh team stared down the Haka............totally theatrical.

For me it should be done before kick off but AFTER the anthems, and if Henry & Co. wont wear it tell 'em to do it in the car park.

That's how its done now

Typo Kiwi.
Clearly i meant BEFORE the anthem.......think I'll just go back to bed.

Just a reminder folks, keep on topic. Haka not Irish politics.

ospreylian wrote:

Kiwireddevil wrote:

ospreylian wrote:I was there when the welsh team stared down the Haka............totally theatrical.

For me it should be done before kick off but AFTER the anthems, and if Henry & Co. wont wear it tell 'em to do it in the car park.

That's how its done now

Typo Kiwi.
Clearly i meant BEFORE the anthem.......think I'll just go back to bed.

Figured that, sorry couldn't resist tweaking you on it

I firmly believe that any ceremony that an international team wish to carry out should be done all at the same time. There shouldn't be back and forth with different rituals/ceremonies/dances/anthems/songs/etc. The time honoured and respected process for most sports in most countries if for the visiting team to be acknowledged first with the home team being acknowledge second. For that reason, when Ireland play at home and have Irelands call and the Irish national anthem (former after latter) they both occur together and not as an add on after the fact. I also think that for national anthems, there is nothing against the two teams lining up on opposing 10 metre lines and singing the anthems instead of being in a row along the sideline. I would have thought the only reason for them being in that row would be to be introduced to state dignatories such as the Irish President, yet they still line out in the same place even if no dignatory walks out onto the field. Both teams being on the 10m lines also means if a haka (or equivalent for Tonga/Samoa, etc.) is added in after their national anthem, everyone is already in place and the whole process can flow seemlessly from anthems/haka/any moments silence to the game starting.

I believe that the Haka should be done last on NZ soil it is their right, it's their country. When playing abroad they should respect the decision of the country they are in on when they do it. I can accept the haka as a tradition but can not accept NZ throwing the rattle as to when they do it as in Wales that time. There is no argument around this matter, you respect the rules and traditions of the country you play in simple as.

As for the 4 Ulster Maori's having to gain permission to do the Ka mate haka, I doubt it, this haka is not owned by anyone and ain't that sacred either. I recall one Maori guy who played for Bethesda in North Wales doing a haka against Swansea in the SWALEC Cup not so long ago, I doubt if he would have phoned his Kaumatua up.

I find it totally disgusting that the IRB can fine people for encroaching to less than 10 meters away from the haka too, the haka is a challenge and other teams should be able to challenge in any way they see fit within reason.

The PI's all have their challenge, why should it be NZ who do it last?

thebandwagonsociety wrote:I firmly believe that any ceremony that an international team wish to carry out should be done all at the same time. There shouldn't be back and forth with different rituals/ceremonies/dances/anthems/songs/etc.

So you want both anthems to be sung and the Haka performed simultaneously?

Only kidding - it would be funny though!

7 Periods with Mr Gormsby was brilliant. A shame they only made 2 seasons (14 episodes). The second season ended not long before I moved to the UK in 2006.

Haven't laughed so hard in a long time. Wonderful stuff. Didn't think the second series was as good, but then I heard they Aussies bought it after the first series thinking it was a "How To" documentary on Further Education which caused a few problems.

Ah well. At least with that and my love of nature documentaries I can at least say I know the difference between a Kanaka and a Kakapo.

welshjohn369 wrote:
...

The PI's all have their challenge, why should it be NZ who do it last?

I thought the PIs did theirs last, same as NZ does? And when the teams play each other they're done concurrently.


I have to admit I quite like the NZ 7s practice. They only do the haka at the end of a tournament, and only if they've won it. 6 or 7 haka of a weekend (before each match) woud get wearisome ...

Wow, it's taken 15 days for v2 to get its first haka thread.

My own view, let the AB's do the haka, but why are opposing teams apparently required to stand meekly and look at the haka. Totally baloney to talk about disrespect blahde blahde blah - if they want to haka then let them haka away - opposition should do what they want even if it does a Campo style keepy-uppy behind the posts.

On the other hand, we have the same charade of having two "anthems" sung at our home matches.

Do the ladies do the haka before their rugby games? If they don't perhaps they and the Silver Ferns could do a waiata and learn to use the poi! Think that would be cool.

How would I handle it? By responding with the time honoured Cumbrian war dance:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4Vf9QMROCQ

brennomac wrote:On the other hand, we have the same charade of having two "anthems" sung at our home matches.

So you'd support dropping Amhran bna Fiann from home Ireland games then?

It is telling that the teams who have beated NZ the most seem to pay little attention to their response to the haka. I personally would hate to see it removed, its great for the crowd and gets the singing rolling around the stadium.

Also on NZ gaining an advantage, its gets my pumped up for the game just sitting in the stands so I would hope it would have a similar effect on the players!

i think the irish should do a little jig shouting out potatoes
that would take the heat out of it all

The Haka should be pre-anthems. Or the other team should be given a three minute window to make their own traditional challenge with the home team going second. The two teams should always be treated equally, rather than preferential treatment given to one side for commercial reasons (ie the IRB liking the Haka because their sponsors like the Haka)

In England's case this would be a walk with added stagger from their own posts to the half way line while swigging from a can of lager and holding a kebab, then on reaching the half way line each player should throw his kebab in the direction of his opposite number and yell "Are you f'king starting?"

The Irish should sing a song to represent the different provinces.

So Fields of Athenry, Molly Malone and Danny Boy.
With that and 2 anthems with a bit of luck the AB's will have dozed off and we will be 40 points up before they realize

Haven't the IRB released some guidelines on how the Haka must be faced? the opposition just have to stand on their ten yard line and watch while the Haka-ettes do their little routine, having said that I do enjoy watching and feel robbed if they spit their dummies out and do it in the changing rooms instead. :run1:

The 10 metre rule makes some sense as that risks raising major bad feeling, escalating as far as open fighting on some occasions if we got in their faces like that.

But aside from that, I think it's the wrong idea to try and censor a team's right to respond to the Haka. The AB's don't only do it for friendly show, they do it to get themselves pumped and intimidate the opposition. Surely the other side has the right to do exactly the same.

Besides, in tradition, the Haka is there to be responded to

Think they have only done that once when Wales stopped them because they would not comply. Fair enough I say, and well done Wales. Customs and ancestory do not come older than Wales and Celtic ways and when one consideres that Welsh is at least 2,500 years old and an ancient version was spoken throughout Briton, NZ going on abouttheir customs should take a step backward and consdier other countries.

Maybe the Welsh team should face the AB's with some Druids and allow them to cast bad omens onto the AB's.

If all 15 opposition players chucked a blade of grass at them could we see the entire team being thrown on their heads at the first ruck? Seriously though, they are getting so precious about their Haka it's overshadowing the game, which given how we haven't beaten them in about 50 years isn't such a bad thing I suppose.....

welshjohn369 wrote:NZ going on abouttheir customs should take a step backward and consdier other countries.

and principalities Only joshing pal

Personally, at this stage, I find the Haka pretty tedious. It doesn't make the hairs on the back of my neck stand up, I don't find it a mesmerising spectacle. It just bores me.

There's nothing disrespectful about that. Not being interested in it does not mean I am denigrating their traditions, culture or history. It's not a history lesson.

You´re entitled to that opinion Don Alfonso. Personally I find Waltzing Matilda or Swing Low tedious but I respect the fans´rights to sing it if they so desire.

The haka is not a right for the ABs. But I dare say there are many players, many fans at the ground and many of those watching who are happy to see it done. I think the Lions are a tradition worth keeping in the game and don´t see a reason to see the demise of the haka either.

I live in Madrid and even in this football obsessed city, everyone knows Jonah Lomu and the haka. It´s a recognisable way to promote the game so why do away with it? It´s usually what interests my girlfriend and then she goes back to reading the paper.

As to the original question, I don´t think there is a best way to face the haka. I don´t agree with this IRB ruling keeping the opposition away from the haka. The Aussies used to keep their tracksuits on and take their sweet time getting out of them allowing the fired up ABs to cool down. But really I don´t think there´s one good way to face it. There is one result to combat it.

I'm with Alfonso, I don't find it a spectacle, I just wish they would get on with the rugby.

The home team should decide when/if the Haka takes place. Wales were correct in saying it should take place before the Welsh national anthem as traditionally that's how it was done when Welsh fans first sang their national anthem in response to the Haka.

Does the person who said that England fans shouldn't sing GSTQ over the top of the Haka as it is disrespectful also feel the same way when GSTQ is frequently booed at rugby internationals ?

Also the NZ Ka Mate haka is copyright protected: "Obtaining the copyrights by Maori in many ways is merely symbolic, but it is very important for Maori leaders. Members of the tribe will not be able to claim any cash for violations of their copyrights, but from now on improper use of Haka for commercial purposes is prohibited. " from here: http://www.nztramping.com/news/maori-haka-dance-is-now-legally-protected/

I also believe that Adidas or the NZ RU own the copyright to the Kapa o Pango haka.

"I remember SCW saying to the England squad to let the Haka inspire them, enjoy it, take it in. The result? England won."

Erm...except...

19 June 2004 Eden Park, Auckland 36 – 12 New Zealand
12 June 2004 Carisbrook, Dunedin 36 – 3 New Zealand

But I recall that SCW still thought that "England were the better team", so I guess it was a moral victory?

Erm for the record it was "Swing Low" that England fans sung over the top of the Haka at Twickers. I thought it was a pretty good response, given that the IRB had decided the players just had to sit there and watch it meekly, so the crowd showed their support in what they felt was the best way; I didn't find it in any way disrespectful.

Wales' response was brilliant I thought, but because Ma'a Nonu came out with some daft remarks about it the IRB decided they couldn't let that happen any more

nottins wrote:I also believe that Adidas or the NZ RU own the copyright to the Kapa o Pango haka.

Could we have some references, quotes, a link or press statement backing up that controversial claim Mr nottins? Otherwise this sounds a tad libelous to me.

You'll find that Ngati Toa own the rights to Ka Mate!, which was confirmed a little over a year ago by court order. Personally I'm relieved at this eventually, as it is now protected from exactly the kind of corporate exploitation that you are trying to insinuate.

Personally, I don't care how other nation's respond to the Haka, but similarly I draw my conclusions about their worthiness and my responsibility to respect their culture on the basis of their response.

Also I'd like to take issue with the repeated speculation that BOD's unfortuante injury in 2005 was somehow a premeditated reaction to his response to the Haka. This was entirely something dreamed up by Alistair Campbell and SCW during the 2005 Lions tour to deflect from their first test drubbing and the sanctioning of Grewcock, (I think it was - correct me if I'm wrong) for biting Kevin Mealamu.

TGG, you need to look up the definition of libel. Seriously.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how Kevens fingers ended up in a players mouth and that with no evidence to prove who did it a player gets a ban for it ? Yet when there is evidence to show two players driving a man head first into the ground, then it is ignored ?

TheGreyGhost wrote:the sanctioning of Grewcock, (I think it was - correct me if I'm wrong) for biting Kevin Mealamu.

They never did explain why Saint Kevvy of the Headbutt put his fingers in Grewcock's mouth, did they?

The 'challange' or war dance is a feature of many cultures. In Wales the bards of rival warlords would engage in verbal jousting. Perhaps the Welsh Captain should walk up to a mic and read some cynghanedd to them.

"Yma heddi a'ch haka, chi yn groch sy'n gwaeddu
ond os dewch yn awr i'r maes, cawch weld gwaedu"

or something like that.

The whole point of the Haka is a show of disrespect. It is designed to put teams off and to motivate the All Blacks. Stag and others that trot out these platitudes in favour are just playing into their hands, exactly where they want you to be. In days of old, the other "team" would respond with their own challenge. For the ABs to state that any facing up to their folk dancing is disrespectful is logically constipated.

In fact the old war challenge of Welsh archers at Crecy and Agincourt was the old 'v' sign or two finger salute. They would show their opponents two fingers as if to say, "this is all I need to kill you". Therefore a rank of players standing there displaying the v sign would be an eloquent echo of past traditions.

Nottins, TheGG - both of you, please stop this petty squabbling. It started on another thread which has since ended. Don't bring it onto this thread. Ta.