The Haka - how would you handle it?

First topic message reminder :

Thought I would start a thread on the most recognisable rugby tradition in the world and how other teams have decided to react to it.

The Haka is seen as a challenge laid open to the opponents and there have been some famous acceptances of this challenge over the years:


Wales - Wales stared down the Haka for well over a minute till the ABs finally backed down.

England - England fans sang the National Anthem whilst the Haka was being performed. Disrespectful in my opinion.

Ireland - Willie Anderson brings his team up to the Haka. This has since been outlawed with fines for encroaching within 10 metres.

Scotland - Chris Hoy brings on the match ball. Err......very confrontational!

There are others of course like England in 97 and France in 2007, as well as the ABs refusal to come out on the pitch to do the Haka in Wales

So the question is - how would you like your team to face the challenge and what have been your favourites?

If the Haka is a formailsed challenge, a sort of "war dance" then presumably it requires a response, no doubt in colonial New Zealand the redcoat response would be "ready aim fire", but in our more civilised age what should the response be ?
As the Haka was originally a tribal or clan thing was there some sort of appropriate response - i.e one side do thier Haka and then the other side get to respond ?
If so then maybe other countries could look at staging their response in a suitable manner - if I may be so bold as to suggest an example, when Scotland have faced (and "respected") the Haka then their captain could read the Declaration of Arbroath before the game started as a response ?

Hope this helps some of you.

As for the Ka Mate Haka, Iwi tried to get big money for this to be performed by the AB's but were denied any claim. Possibly the amazing gg will fill us in on the Iwi who think tey have complete ownership of this haka.



There were quite a number of different types of haka performed in pre-European times, depending on the occasion. There were hakas of song and joy, and warlike hakas of "utu" (revenge), performed before going into battle.

There were two types of war haka - one performed without weapons, usually to express public or private feelings, known as the "haka taparahi", and the war haka with weapons, the "peruperu". The "peruperu" was traditionally performed before going into battle. It was to invoke Tumatauenga, the god of war, and warned the enemy of the fate awaiting him. It involved fierce facial expressions and grimaces, poking out of the tongue, eye bulging, grunts and cries, and the waving of war weapons.


Before actually going into battle, the warriors would generally assemble together. The warrior leading the "taua", or war party, would move into the centre of the men and cry :


"Tika tonu mai
Tika tonu mai
Ki ahau e noho nei
Tika tonu mai I a hei ha!"

Which means :

"Come forth this way, towards me
To this place where I now stand "Come forth this way, towards me
To this place where I now stand
Come straight this way
I a hei ha!"
Come straight this way
I a hei ha!"

At this call, the warriors would prepare for the "peruperu" haka, during which the tribal elders would make a careful inspection during the dance. If the haka was not performed in total unity, this could be taken as an omen of disaster for the battle to come.

During the actual haka before battle the dancing warriors would eyeball the enemy. Sometimes this would be to stress a particular action during the haka, such as a slicing movement with the arm to indicate the fate awaiting the enemy. The warriors very often went into battle naked, apart from a plaited flax belt around the waist, and which was used for attaching short clubs.

The haka may also be used to tell of great feats, or danced as a special welcome before a high-ranking guest. A haka can also express grievance, or, in earlier times, could be addressing a prayer to one of the ancient Māori Gods.

The haka generally accompanies each cultural performance today.



The Taua - war party
War parties were usually composed of males, although female tribal members were not exempt from this activity.

The Māori warriors excelled in the art of ambush and surprise raids, appearing and disappearing swiftly and noiselessly into the thick New Zealand natural rainforest environment. They usually attacked at dawn. The aim was to kill all members of the enemy war party, so that no survivors would remain with the risk of "utu" (revenge).

If a lasting peace was considered with a former enemy, an inter-tribal marriage between families of aristocratic or chiefly rank was arranged to ensure the peace pact.

A war party was prepared with care, involving intricate ritual and the abstinence of certain foods and practices. The war party dedicated itself to Tumatauenga, the god of war, and special rites placed a "tapu" around the warrior.

The fighting season was generally between late November and early April, the summer months, when food and fishing was plentiful for warriors on a long war trail.

A war party led by a chief (rangatira), would be made up of around 70 warriors, which was the average compliment of a war canoe (waka taua). It was not uncommon, however, for a war canoe to carry up to 140 warriors. This was a "Te Hokwhitu a Tu".

On arrival back home, a cleansing rite was performed to lift the "tapu".

From memory it's Te Raupreha's hapu (or it might have been Ngati Toa iwi as a whole).

I stand by my earlier comments about kapa haka, kamete and the AB's. You are obviously living in NZ, and have attended kapa haka. I think that's great. We can agree to disagree.

It is Ngati Toa and during the late 90's and early 2000's they tried to 'Trademark' Ka Mate but it was turned down. In 2009 the government has agreed to discuss Ka Mate with the Iwi but there is a definate NO to the Iwi getting royalties or give them a veto on who can perform the haka.

I attend many Kapa Haka and in discussion with many Kaumatua and Kuia they are in agreement that Kapa Haka festivals and Welsh Eisteddfods have much in common.

Great. I'm glad you're getting into local culture. I'm not surprised by your comments re: kapa haka and Eiseddfods. I'd be surprised if it weren't simlarities given they are about celebrating culture. I'm guessing you're highlighting that Kapa haka is predominantly performed by cultural groups predominantly made up of Maori, performed infront of predominantly polynesian audiences (especially when performed at polyfests). I'm not sure if you are also implying that kapa haka is more pure than those performed at schools, rugby games or for tourists.

I don't agree with your comments re the AB's and the haka. What I would say is, the discussion has been had before. E.g: the WRU asked university professor, and kaumatua, Piri Sciascia whether it was appropriate that they respond to the haka with "Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau". He responded yes. This is the story that is generally reported in the press. What's not often reported is that the WRU did not provide him with the whole story. When he discovered the whole program he said he thought it was inappropriate and is on record backing the AB's decision to perform in the shed. Maori leaders such as Ranginui Walker, Pita Sharples, Buck Shelford have all commented on the AB's haka at various times. As far as I'm concerned they are the ones with the mana, and they are the experts on proticol.

Maori leaders such as Ranginui Walker, Pita Sharples, Buck Shelford have all commented on the AB's haka at various times. As far as I'm concerned they are the ones with the mana, and they are the experts on proticol.

They are the experts on Maori protocol and what occurs in New Zealand. Anywhere outside NZ then their opinion stays at home it has secondary importance to the home nations culture. If Wales want to do the National Anthem after the Haka in Wales then it is their decision. I agree it is entirly up the the AB's if they want to do the haka at all as it could be the case if a Nation refuses the AB permission to do the haka on the field of play. It is not warranted that any country has to negotiate with Maori on how to respond to the haka when playing in ones own country, in fact I would go as far as to say it is up to the AB's to seek permission when they can acually perform it if they wish. Sometimes people get to precious about it but as I have said what you do in NZ is entirly up to you its your country.


I am not implying anything but Kapa Haka performces at competitions are more polished . Like Welsh the only 'pure' thing I would argue for are the Mihi in Te reo like the pureness of poetic Welsh.

Just get over it man. The ABs don't go around demanding things, and Maori don't go around demanding things of foreign countries. They do continue to make demands about their own Treaty rights agreed with the British government and by proxy the government of New Zealand and rightly so.

The honest truth is that host nations and broadcasters want the Haka to be performed. But when messed around as the Welsh did the ABs are quite happy to not make a performance public.

Ngati Toa have just as much rights to Ka Mate! as a record label has over artists music and performances. If England decided to switch to a performance of Radioheads "The National Anthem" prior to kick off, you'd expect royalties to go somewhere. Not sure how you can be so shocked at an Iwi suggesting use of their cultural heritage might be worthy of remuneration. It is a commerically constructed society we're asking Maori to live in after all. Just sounds like good business sense.

It is a commerically constructed society we're asking Maori to live in after all.


Who is asking them? What else would they do?

Seems to me you know nothing.

You are whinging and need to get over it. Getting all precious and mighty over a few seconds of face pulling and grunting. No place in a Commercially Constructed Society really aye

For the love of all worshipped deities, please stop with the


See how annoying it is

How can you "own" a set of movements, let alone claim a copyright on them - if Radiohead are played at a game the composer of the song gets a royalty payment whilst the song is still in copyright.

If a traditional song, e.g. a folk song is played there is no composer royalty, however the composer and arranger may be entitled to royalties in that respect. I'd suggest at best the Haka(s) would fall into that camp, also as the Haka is hundreds if years old it would be out of copyright anyway.

If however the Haka was copyrighted, a couple of issues - firstly the TV companies would have to pay a performace royalty to the NZ team everytime it was done, and secondly the Haka in copyright would become public property to anyone who was prepared to pay the royalty - so it could be used in advertising, for example. Would the Maori want that ?

Irish Londoner wrote:How can you "own" a set of movements, let alone claim a copyright on them - if Radiohead are played at a game the composer of the song gets a royalty payment whilst the song is still in copyright.

If a traditional song, e.g. a folk song is played there is no composer royalty, however the composer and arranger may be entitled to royalties in that respect. I'd suggest at best the Haka(s) would fall into that camp, also as the Haka is hundreds if years old it would be out of copyright anyway.

If however the Haka was copyrighted, a couple of issues - firstly the TV companies would have to pay a performace royalty to the NZ team everytime it was done, and secondly the Haka in copyright would become public property to anyone who was prepared to pay the royalty - so it could be used in advertising, for example. Would the Maori want that ?

I will be frank AND NOT RACIST. Maori will try anything to get money out of anyone in respects of using their cultural history (we were here first so we own everything etc). Ka Mate as already stated is not owned in terms of copyright to anyone, that has been decided and it will never be overturned, it has an Iwi that can claim one of its own created Ka Mate and that's about it.

I believe copyright only lasts so long anyway...did not the King of Christianity Cliff Richard have a battle to retain ownership of his material only to be told to go fourth and mulitply?

Maori are now trying to get legal rights to their Ta Moko (tattoos), how ever Maori like having their pictures taken and posting them on the internet thus providing others with designs they use. I myself have a Ta Moko done the old way and had a Karakia (prayer) and blessing before it was commenced. It was gifted to me by a family ... the rest is not really needed.

It's an unfortunate thing that Maori want everything from modern day but also want to live in the past. They expect to have ownership of everything created by other races and cultrues but grasp onto their possessions as if they are the holiest of holy. In reality no one cares much. It is a difficult one to explain fully, you have to live the situation with the more radical Maori (of which there are few, and getting fewer).

The reason the All Blacks did the Haka in the sheds was that the WRU lied to them. Then the Bleatingish news media went OTT. We all now know the ethics of the Bleatingish news media.
Anyone who thinks the Haka is pointless is clealy xenophobic at least, and probably thinks that "Swing Low.." preaches the glories of slave trading, opium pushing, and the stealing of Chinese tea plants.

Why should the WRU lie to them, it was in Wales, the AB's either do as they are told or don't do it on the field of play. Is is such a difficult area to grasp? All you need to see are the ampount of microphones and NZ cameras around the players when they do it in NZ to see how cultural it is LOL it is hyped out of all decency now. Did you hear the echo and the screeching haka from Dunedin on Saturday with an empty stadium.

Why should anyone outside Maoridom belive there is a point to the haka? It's not Maori god given right to be known by everyone all over the world. In fact if you are not a Union fan and don't bother travelling, many people don't know where NZ is never mind the Maori.

Once again someone being over protective about a culture and using xenophobic and other such silly words. As for how 'Swing low' goes I would not even know the words to it pal

In terms of the Wales test. Surely this is a case of brinkmanship. WRFU said this is what we want to do. The AB's said we are not comfortable with this. In the end a compromise couldnt be found and the AB's didn't perform the haka in the stadium. It seems to me that it's unlikely the WRFU communicated either: effectively or early enough with the NZRFU. This is basic stakeholder management 101.

It's quite clear that the WRFU would rather the AB's had actually performed the haka. I doubt if they had known the AB's would choose not to perform the haka they would not have insisted on the format. Alternatively if they had had full and frank discussions with the AB's early enough they might have found a solution.

Welshjohn. Does it occur to you that Kiwis on here are probably more than a bit bemused by your self defined expertise on all things kiwi and all things Maori. It's interesting that you assume that you can define the culture and feelings of others, and that you assume that those who disagree with you lack background, experience and knowledge.

I am not at all bothered what Kiwis think to be honest, why should I? I know more about the culture than many many Kiwis, In fact I know some Maori protocol's better than some Maori do. My expertise is not 'self defined' what ever you mean by that. I know my cuzzie 274 removed told me so:)

Again I ask you why should ANY country negotiate with NZ and the preformance of the haka outside NZ? No one has to, THAT country TELLS NZ what is happening and if they don't like it then end of conversation. You and other kiwis just can not seem to understand the haka means nothing culturally to anyone outside NZ. There is no solution other than NZ abiding by the other countrys decision. What is so difficult to understand?

Tell me welshjohn...
What made you come to New zealand in the first place, and stay so long?

aucklandlaurie wrote: Tell me welshjohn...
What made you come to New zealand in the first place, and stay so long?

Was thinking very same thing

aucklandlaurie wrote: Tell me welshjohn...
What made you come to New zealand in the first place, and stay so long?

Why because I am honest in my opinons? Don't ever take the racist road becasue I am not. Plus the fact I have family who were some of the first settlers in NZ. I am also a citizen.

Act or Mana?? Act act act.

So you came out to stay with relations?
And then got your citizenship?

aucklandlaurie wrote: So you came out to stay with relations?
And then got your citizenship?

Yes I came out with my family in 1795 and stayed!!!

welshjohn369 wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: So you came out to stay with relations?
And then got your citizenship?

Yes I came out with my family in 1795 and stayed!!!

So being related to families that were here before The Treaty where do you stand on it ??

Which version?

The one in Te Papa

what do you mean? whenyou say that you came out in 1795???
Why do you use the name welsh? is that your surname?

welshjohn369 wrote:As for how 'Swing low' goes I would not even know the words to it pal

This is clearly a lie. If you've watched rugby for any length of time, you'll know the words to 'Swing Low.'

Rangiora wrote:The one in Te Papa

Hahahaha yeah ok so which version?

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:The one in Te Papa

Hahahaha yeah ok so which version?

Without going too far off topic, as your family where some of the original settlers we'll have to go with the English one

The problem with the Haka is the way NZ fight to keep the response to it limited. They now have a list of 10 things opposing teams can't do. That is pathetic as other teams should be able to do what they want in response. There are just trying to protect their pre-match weapon - it's truly pathetic. Why does it have to come just before the game? Why can't we sing a song in response? Why can't we advance towards them? Why can't we hold our ground at the end pod the Haka and not back down - ALL because they have to protect their stupid advantage.

In regard to SA and OZ just getting on with it thats rubbish see below...

One of the best known responses to the haka occurred during the 1995 World Cup at Ellis Park in Johannesburg, South Africa. The Springboks, led by captain Francois Pienaar defiantly faced the haka by striding towards the All Blacks as they performed the dance. By the end of the haka the Springboks were a metre from the All blacks team staring them down. The Springboks went on to win the match 15 -12.

At the 1999 Bledisloe Cup match at Telstra Stadium, Sydney, 107,000 voices sang Waltzing Matilda as a response to the New Zealand haka. The Australian players responded by delivering New Zealand a record 28-7 defeat culminating in the cup being retained by Australia.

Best response is to do nothing at all. Go down the other end of the field and do some drills or sign some autographs. I wouldn't care if they wanted to do their dance. I'd just ignore it just like Campo used to.

deadfred.
I have never seen a list of 10 things that the opposition cant do?
who wrote it ? can you give us a copy?

Rangiora wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:The one in Te Papa

Hahahaha yeah ok so which version?

Without going too far off topic, as your family where some of the original settlers we'll have to go with the English one

Well had it been my family's decision it would have been in Welsh.

Personally I find the English one a strange decision by a Kiwi especially with such a Maori name. Them there Englsih conned you and no mistake. However, the treaty had very little to do with the land being taken from Maori, it was more to do with the succession of laws produced to overwhelm the Maori.

The treaty is little more than a way of maori trying to get their own back now all a little too late. Even when land is given back it is usually allowed to 'go bush' and is not tended, certainly the areas I have seen but as I say 'usually'. Maori land becomes worthless even to Maori as you well know. Some treaty claims can go take a long jump off a short pier. Foreshore and seabed belongs to everyone and it will remain so no way on earth Maori will gain control of it without there being some serious bloodshed in NZ. The current claim that oil 400 Kms from the NZ coast belongs to Maori set me off in laughter that lasted ages.

It's ironic but that's why the Maori want to remain linked to the British. Once NZ becomes a republic you say bye bye to the treaty.

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:The one in Te Papa

Hahahaha yeah ok so which version?

Without going too far off topic, as your family where some of the original settlers we'll have to go with the English one

Well had it been my family's decision it would have been in Welsh.

Personally I find the English one a strange decision by a Kiwi especially with such a Maori name. .

Ah that would be because you assumed and assumed wrong as being of Scottish descent and live near username

The Treaty and it's impact on today's life here in NZ is certainly pretty complex and don't feel I've been here long enough ( 4 years ) to voice an opinion, but always keen to learn of others take on it and would be happy to discuss over a Speight's should you ever be in my local.

Rangiora wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:The one in Te Papa

Hahahaha yeah ok so which version?

Without going too far off topic, as your family where some of the original settlers we'll have to go with the English one

Well had it been my family's decision it would have been in Welsh.

Personally I find the English one a strange decision by a Kiwi especially with such a Maori name. .

Ah that would be because you assumed and assumed wrong as being of Scottish descent and live near username

The Treaty and it's impact on today's life here in NZ is certainly pretty complex and don't feel I've been here long enough ( 4 years ) to voice an opinion, but always keen to learn of others take on it and would be happy to discuss over a Speight's should you ever be in my local.

It has been complex since the time it was hastily written in 1840 but as I have stated the Acts that were written throughout the 19th Century show the true reflection of how NZ was and its impact on the land and Maori. I feel as if Maori place all their grievances in one box which makes their constant political stance hard to stomach. I have spoken to certain Maori in terms of Te Reo Maori and how to make this area more non political as they did with the Welsh Language Society, they would certainly get more sympathy and it certainly worked in Wales with the Welsh language. I think one of the main downfalls with Maori are the in-fighting and inability to agree between Iwi throughout NZ, this was the case before settlement and continues to be a huge problem.

The fact remains that the majority of Maori and decent and wonderful people but like every race or culture you get the small percentage who spoil it. Same goes for the European, Asian, South African and American Kiwis to mention but a few nationalities who can rightly call these islands their own.

Anyway if I am down that end I will certailny take you up on the cold ones.

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:

welshjohn369 wrote:

Rangiora wrote:The one in Te Papa

Hahahaha yeah ok so which version?

Without going too far off topic, as your family where some of the original settlers we'll have to go with the English one

Well had it been my family's decision it would have been in Welsh.

Personally I find the English one a strange decision by a Kiwi especially with such a Maori name. .

Ah that would be because you assumed and assumed wrong as being of Scottish descent and live near username

The Treaty and it's impact on today's life here in NZ is certainly pretty complex and don't feel I've been here long enough ( 4 years ) to voice an opinion, but always keen to learn of others take on it and would be happy to discuss over a Speight's should you ever be in my local.

It has been complex since the time it was hastily written in 1840 but as I have stated the Acts that were written throughout the 19th Century show the true reflection of how NZ was and its impact on the land and Maori. I feel as if Maori place all their grievances in one box which makes their constant political stance hard to stomach. I have spoken to certain Maori in terms of Te Reo Maori and how to make this area more non political as they did with the Welsh Language Society, they would certainly get more sympathy and it certainly worked in Wales with the Welsh language. I think one of the main downfalls with Maori are the in-fighting and inability to agree between Iwi throughout NZ, this was the case before settlement and continues to be a huge problem.

The fact remains that the majority of Maori and decent and wonderful people but like every race or culture you get the small percentage who spoil it. Same goes for the European, Asian, South African and American Kiwis to mention but a few nationalities who can rightly call these islands their own.

Anyway if I am down that end I will certailny take you up on the cold ones.

Very well said

deadfred wrote:The problem with the Haka is the way NZ fight to keep the response to it limited. They now have a list of 10 things opposing teams can't do. That is pathetic as other teams should be able to do what they want in response. There are just trying to protect their pre-match weapon - it's truly pathetic. Why does it have to come just before the game? Why can't we sing a song in response? Why can't we advance towards them? Why can't we hold our ground at the end pod the Haka and not back down - ALL because they have to protect their stupid advantage.

In regard to SA and OZ just getting on with it thats rubbish see below...

One of the best known responses to the haka occurred during the 1995 World Cup at Ellis Park in Johannesburg, South Africa. The Springboks, led by captain Francois Pienaar defiantly faced the haka by striding towards the All Blacks as they performed the dance. By the end of the haka the Springboks were a metre from the All blacks team staring them down. The Springboks went on to win the match 15 -12.

At the 1999 Bledisloe Cup match at Telstra Stadium, Sydney, 107,000 voices sang Waltzing Matilda as a response to the New Zealand haka. The Australian players responded by delivering New Zealand a record 28-7 defeat culminating in the cup being retained by Australia.

I was at that 1999 BC game... I thought it was a bit rude to sing like that but you have to remember we all had Olympic Fever at the time.

Linebreaker
I think people are getting confused , I thought deadfred was saying that the opposition team couldnte do anything while the ABs did the Haka.

Laurie, yes...but then he cited a few instances where the 'rules' were broken.

Maybe I'm old fashioned but I never tire of watching it and trying to pick up on the subtle variations.

I'm fine with a continuous, frenzied, crescendo roar from the crowd to accompany it - but not singing a song over it.

To me that's a little disrespectful but that is what can happen when there are 107,000 other minds in the mix.

Personally linebreaker i had no problem with it. its just an example of "bring it on"
What I would really like to see with the World cup,is for the All Blacks to do the Haka only once, At the end of a victorious final, shirts off, with the crowd doing it in accompniment....
The haka the sevens do at the end of the tournaments are brilliant....

Yes they are high octane ones, laurie.

How sad that things need to be censored when one mamber can incite violence here.

What's happened mate? I thought you describe things well...you know a lot about history. There shouldn't be any censorship of that.

Sugarnspikes
This is how Haka threads usually end up.