New Zealand vs England 2nd Test 13th July Eden Park

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ALL BLACKS: Stephen Perofeta, Sevu Reece, Rieko Ioane, Jordie Barrett, Mark Tele'a, Damian McKenzie, Finlay Christie, Ardie Savea, Dalton Papali'i, Samipeni Finau, Patrick Tuipulotu, Scott Barrett (c), Tyrel Lomax, Codie Taylor, Ethan de Groot. Reserves: Asafo Aumua, Ofa Tu'ungafasi, Fletcher Newell, Tupou Vaa'i, Luke Jacobson, Cortez Ratima, Anton Lienert-Brown, Beauden Barrett.


ENGLAND: Furbank; Feyi-Waboso, Slade, Lawrence, Freeman; Smith, Mitchell; Baxter, George (capt), Cole, Itoje, Martin, Cunningham-South, Underhill, Earl. Replacements: Dan, Rodd, Stuart, Coles, Curry, B Spencer, F Smith, Sleightholme.



Ben Youngs and George Ford discuss what England might need to do

https://open.spotify.com/episode/5Cy3lvUG8nm2RjFy8B8GV3?si=2bbd006721554b56

Both players think last week's gameplan worked but England weren't ultimately accurate enough. While there'll be a few tweaks, Ford thinks it'll come down to England's self-belief that improving execution by 10% can get a win

Telea often filled-in for D-Mac during England lineouts, to let the fly-half field our kicks. Youngs would like to see Lawrence with the ball in hand, heading for Telea.

There it is, we just didn't do enough when we had concerted pressure in their 22, kicked the ball away far too much.

All Blacks full of confidence now!

Stop kicking the flipping ball away!

England running out of puff a bit, but what a game. They’re making poor kicking choices in attack - I think at this stage they need to build a bit more before going to the boot.

It’s still all to play for, but England have to keep the ball in the right part of the field.

Ooft England need a try - do they have enough in the tank to get it?

Fin Baxter is an absolute freak. There's no way a fetus can play 69 minutes against the All Blacks and look that good throughout.

On replay, that’s a harsh call - you can see the white of Papalii’s collar outside Itoje’s arm.

I told you Smith would play fullback today….

This might not be the worst thing for England with Steward coming off as we need more of an attacking threat.

RDW wrote:Fin Baxter is an absolute freak. There's no way a fetus can play 69 minutes against the All Blacks and look that good throughout.

Imagine what he’ll be like when he reaches toddlerhood

It looked to me as if 4 reached around and the ABs brought the catcher down on top of him.

Hard road back from here.

Chasing points and still kicking the bloody ball away...

Game over, England had a big period of dominance where they didnt convert, thats the difference.

Brilliant run from Sleightholme.

There may yet be a twist in the dying minutes.

They had to take the shot to give themselves a chance at the win.

Some really dubious flopping on the ruck by the ABs there, but England get one more chance.

Will the TMO decide this one?

I think what we’ve learned from this series is that England’s subs aren’t yet able to close out a tight game. But there are a lot of positives to take away, chief of which is Fin Baxter.

The All Blacks got away with being offside a hell of a lot in that.

Saying that, you can't just keep kicking the ball away like we did in that second half. Aimless grubber after aimless grubber it is so frustrating because it feels like the game was there for us.

We are pretty impressive at not winning tests we appear to be in control of. Not surprising when you always kick possession away when in attack. What are the coaches thinking with this tactic? We did it in the RWC and then again several times today. Crazy. Plus Rodd cannot scrummage.....quelle surprise.

hugehandoff wrote:We are pretty impressive at not winning tests we appear to be in control of. Not surprising when you always kick possession away when in attack. What are the coaches thinking with this tactic? We did it in the RWC and then again several times today. Crazy. Plus Rodd cannot scrummage.....quelle surprise.

There was a difference between the kicking in the first half vs the second. In the first half, it was effective in holding the defence back a little and creating the space that allowed for the two crossfield kicks. In the second half it looked like a tired attack running out of ideas.

RDW wrote:You know what, I reckon England will do this

Shows what I know

What a Test match!

Fair play the All Blacks - they were really up against it in the 50/60 minute mark but managed to turn it around, helped by bringing a certain Beauden Barrett off the bench.

Two losses for England's but they should take huge confidential from this tour. They went full toe to toe with the All Blacks and probably deserved one win - just ran out of steam.

Poorfour wrote:Will the TMO decide this one?

I think I’ve understood the call. Nic Berry was very focused on the initial maul having been defended and not on Lawrence and George having been bound. I think his view was that the maul had stopped twice and was therefore over and England needed to use it rather than continue. Harsh, because he hadn’t called “Use it” , but technically correct.

hugehandoff wrote:We are pretty impressive at not winning tests we appear to be in control of. Not surprising when you always kick possession away when in attack. What are the coaches thinking with this tactic? We did it in the RWC and then again several times today. Crazy. Plus Rodd cannot scrummage.....quelle surprise.

The grubber kicks were an odd tactic, works well in the right moment but not all the time. One thing England can improve is their rucking. They seem to be unable to go through more than a few phases. Decent tour for them but I feel they should have won at least one.

2 defeats....Borthwick out!!!

Collapse2005 wrote:

hugehandoff wrote:We are pretty impressive at not winning tests we appear to be in control of. Not surprising when you always kick possession away when in attack. What are the coaches thinking with this tactic? We did it in the RWC and then again several times today. Crazy. Plus Rodd cannot scrummage.....quelle surprise.

The grubber kicks were an odd tactic, works well in the right moment but not all the time. One thing England can improve is their rucking. They seem to be unable to go through more than a few phases. Decent tour for them but I feel they should have won at least one.

I think we lacked patience in attack. The grubbers were an option but we over used them. The area of the game where we really missed Ford. Ruck has been an area of strength for England previously but the ABs definitely tried to pile the pressure on and we good at playing right up to the point of being penalised but not quite enough to get the ref to blow the whistle.

Just watching the replay and 20 mins in - ref really keen to ping England scrum but seems happy to let NZ throw in crooked at line-out - the first one was ridiculous, nobody jumped and the NZ player that caught the ball didn't move his feet and caught the ball square in the chest - couldn't have been more 'not straight'. Also how many forward passes in the move that Smith intercepted just before the line yet NZ get the scrum and subsequent pen.

SB will be watching the U20 tightheads with massive interest.

Stuarts an average make shift till the next batch come through...

Same old. Stodgy unambitious attack. Dodgy scrum. Going to continue like that until Borthwick is removed or he realises he need really quality coaches around him not just his Leicester mates.

Geordie wrote:2 defeats....Borthwick out!!!

And 3 defeats in the last 4. But yes I agree he should be removed to take advantage of this group of players.

Didn't watch - will catch up and watch this afternoon (when I am supposed to be working in the garden). But did I see the stats right? Earl had 23 runs for 79m? That is a ridiculous amount of work.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Same old. Stodgy unambitious attack. Dodgy scrum. Going to continue like that until Borthwick is removed or he realises he need really quality coaches around him not just his Leicester mates.

I mean the Kiwi commentators on the NZR+ stream really liked the England invention in attack. Well in the first half anyway. Second half we didn't throw the punches we'd have liked.

Scrum held up fairly well considering we were missing the two first choice tightheads and had a 22 and 23 year old pair of looseheads in the squad. Baxter did well and the development of his game from last week to this was noticeable. Vital experience.

Heaf wrote:Just watching the replay and 20 mins in - ref really keen to ping England scrum but seems happy to let NZ throw in crooked at line-out - the first one was ridiculous, nobody jumped and the NZ player that caught the ball didn't move his feet and caught the ball square in the chest - couldn't have been more 'not straight'.  Also how many forward passes in the move that Smith intercepted just before the line yet NZ get the scrum and subsequent pen.

Think both sides got away with a couple of those. Refs also tend to quite lenient if you don't go up in the air to compete.

doctor_grey wrote:Didn't watch - will catch up and watch this afternoon (when I am supposed to be working in the garden).  But did I see the stats right?  Earl had 23 runs for 79m?  That is a ridiculous amount of work.  

Yeah Earl is the best in the world...

...at celebrating penalties.

Seriously though he was very good.

Marcus has not taken his opportunity for me. He does some stuff really well like his cross field kicks for our 2 tries plus his pass for the Feyi-Woboso try in the 1st test, but he does not control and dictate matters when needed. Some aimless stuff is always there along with the golden stuff.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Heaf wrote:Just watching the replay and 20 mins in - ref really keen to ping England scrum but seems happy to let NZ throw in crooked at line-out - the first one was ridiculous, nobody jumped and the NZ player that caught the ball didn't move his feet and caught the ball square in the chest - couldn't have been more 'not straight'.  Also how many forward passes in the move that Smith intercepted just before the line yet NZ get the scrum and subsequent pen.

Think both sides got away with a couple of those. Refs also tend to quite lenient if you don't go up in the air to compete.

Lineouts where they throw straight to the front player who doesn't even move, so therefore can't possibly be straight, are one of my bugbears - they never seem to be pinged - is there some law I'm missing that says you can throw it crooked if it's straight to the bloke at the front on the ground? Seems odd as the other team have zero chance to compete ...

For a lineout to be called not straight it has to go outside the line on which the players line up as far as I remember - ie where the head is before the throw. Or be caught with the outside arm. Straight into the chest is not counted as "not straight".

Still reading the news articles. Saw this pic.

TJ wrote:For a lineout to be called not straight it has to go outside the line on which the players line up as far as I remember - ie where the head is before the throw.  Or be caught with the outside arm.  Straight into the chest is not counted as "not straight".

The law says straight along the line of touch - but I guess from seeing what we see in reality what you describe may be the current 'interpretation' ?

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Geordie wrote:2 defeats....Borthwick out!!!

And 3 defeats in the last 4. But yes I agree he should be removed to take advantage of this group of players.

Please go back on your sabbatical....

Not sure why they didn't go back and look at the forward pass for NZs 2nd try?

Another very encouraging display from England, just running out of steam in the last 15/20.

I think there's a very exciting future ahead for the next few years for England. Their last five games against top opposition, only one of which was at home, reads 1-4, but all four losses have been within a single score.

Give it another few years of development, the likes of Baxter, Dan, Coles, Cunningham South, F Smith, Feyi Waboso, Freeman and Sleightholme all have the capacity to become top class players.

We're starting to see Marcus Smith approach his club form, there's good variety in attack, the forwards are building up very nicely, especially the back row, and England have a scrum half that can move the ball quickly.

Good future ahead for this team.

Good effort by England - another match that had a few things gone the other way they could well have won. Encouraging signs for the future.

Officials generally good but still puzzled how they didn't see the forward pass by BB in the build-up to NZs second try.

I think there's a very exciting future ahead for the next few years for England.

As a Scots fan I think they will get revenge for the last few years in the 6N. they look a much better side that a year or two ago. Still a lack of confidence leading to kicking the ball away in attacking positions. Still need to settle on a 10.

Duty281 wrote:Another very encouraging display from England, just running out of steam in the last 15/20.

I think there's a very exciting future ahead for the next few years for England. Their last five games against top opposition, only one of which was at home, reads 1-4, but all four losses have been within a single score.

Give it another few years of development, the likes of Baxter, Dan, Coles, Cunningham South, F Smith, Feyi Waboso, Freeman and Sleightholme all have the capacity to become top class players.

We're starting to see Marcus Smith approach his club form, there's good variety in attack, the forwards are building up very nicely, especially the back row, and England have a scrum half that can move the ball quickly.

Good future ahead for this team.

There was a few key players who are young/in their prime still to come back in. Ellis Genge and Ollie Chessum would have given us so much more impact off the bench if could have swung the game. JvP coming back so that there's a realistic sub for Mitchell as well will be a significant benefit.

Be interesting to see if an Alfie Barbeary or a Tom Willis can push their way into the number 8 thinking. We know Ted Hill was close to selection this time round.

A under 30s squad of;

Genge, Baxter, Rodd
Dan, Oghre, Langdon
Stuart, Heyes, Harper
Itoje, Cole
Martin, Chessum
CCS, T Hill
Underhill, T Curry
Earl, Barbeary
Mitchell, JvP, Quirke
Smith, Smith
IFW, Sleightholme
Lawrence, Kelly
Northmore, Dingwall
Freeman, Roebuck
Furbank, Steward

That has an awful lot going for it. Centre is an area of issue still but if we can get Dingwall defending more at 13 for Saints I think he could take on the Slade role as the glue in the midfield.

Borthwick has taken the team on a hell of a lot this year. If we think where we were at the start of the 6N to now we've got more depth, a top level defence, an attack game that is slowly coming together and we are still reliable at set piece. There's more work to do but we are getting closer and closer to kicking on and being a genuinely top team.

TJ wrote:

I think there's a very exciting future ahead for the next few years for England.

As a Scots fan I think they will get revenge for the last few years in the 6N.  they look a much better side that a year or two ago.  Still a lack of confidence leading to kicking the ball away in attacking positions.  Still need to settle on a 10.  

I think we've settled on Ford but he was out injured for this tour and we probably missed him even with Marcus playing some of his best rugby for England. Marcus slipping out of the games in the second half was frustrating after some very good play in the first half. In the second half today we orchestrated a period of dominant territory and possession but were wasteful with it and Marcus will be annoyed about that. He pushes England on and he answers his doubters emphatically and wins the game, failure to do so brings the same old questions back around again.

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Another very encouraging display from England, just running out of steam in the last 15/20.

I think there's a very exciting future ahead for the next few years for England. Their last five games against top opposition, only one of which was at home, reads 1-4, but all four losses have been within a single score.

Give it another few years of development, the likes of Baxter, Dan, Coles, Cunningham South, F Smith, Feyi Waboso, Freeman and Sleightholme all have the capacity to become top class players.

We're starting to see Marcus Smith approach his club form, there's good variety in attack, the forwards are building up very nicely, especially the back row, and England have a scrum half that can move the ball quickly.

Good future ahead for this team.

There was a few key players who are young/in their prime still to come back in. Ellis Genge and Ollie Chessum would have given us so much more impact off the bench if could have swung the game. JvP coming back so that there's a realistic sub for Mitchell as well will be a significant benefit.

Be interesting to see if an Alfie Barbeary or a Tom Willis can push their way into the number 8 thinking. We know Ted Hill was close to selection this time round.

A under 30s squad of;

Genge, Baxter, Rodd
Dan, Oghre, Langdon
Stuart, Heyes, Harper
Itoje, Cole
Martin, Chessum
CCS, T Hill
Underhill, T Curry
Earl, Barbeary
Mitchell, JvP, Quirke
Smith, Smith
IFW, Sleightholme
Lawrence, Kelly
Northmore, Dingwall
Freeman, Roebuck
Furbank, Steward

That has an awful lot going for it. Centre is an area of issue still but if we can get Dingwall defending more at 13 for Saints I think he could take on the Slade role as the glue in the midfield.

Borthwick has taken the team on a hell of a lot this year. If we think where we were at the start of the 6N to now we've got more depth, a top level defence, an attack game that is slowly coming together and we are still reliable at set piece. There's more work to do but we are getting closer and closer to kicking on and being a genuinely top team.

There is indeed a lot to be optimistic about, there are the bones of a good team in there who can help bring through some of the outstanding young talent that is coming through the U18s and U20s (production line seems to be cranking back into life). I would dearly love another big hard running centre to come through, Lawrance is a decent option, but injuries happen. I'd also love a raw meat eating tighthead to come through over the next couple of years.

Cumbrian wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Another very encouraging display from England, just running out of steam in the last 15/20.

I think there's a very exciting future ahead for the next few years for England. Their last five games against top opposition, only one of which was at home, reads 1-4, but all four losses have been within a single score.

Give it another few years of development, the likes of Baxter, Dan, Coles, Cunningham South, F Smith, Feyi Waboso, Freeman and Sleightholme all have the capacity to become top class players.

We're starting to see Marcus Smith approach his club form, there's good variety in attack, the forwards are building up very nicely, especially the back row, and England have a scrum half that can move the ball quickly.

Good future ahead for this team.

There was a few key players who are young/in their prime still to come back in. Ellis Genge and Ollie Chessum would have given us so much more impact off the bench if could have swung the game. JvP coming back so that there's a realistic sub for Mitchell as well will be a significant benefit.

Be interesting to see if an Alfie Barbeary or a Tom Willis can push their way into the number 8 thinking. We know Ted Hill was close to selection this time round.

A under 30s squad of;

Genge, Baxter, Rodd
Dan, Oghre, Langdon
Stuart, Heyes, Harper
Itoje, Cole
Martin, Chessum
CCS, T Hill
Underhill, T Curry
Earl, Barbeary
Mitchell, JvP, Quirke
Smith, Smith
IFW, Sleightholme
Lawrence, Kelly
Northmore, Dingwall
Freeman, Roebuck
Furbank, Steward

That has an awful lot going for it. Centre is an area of issue still but if we can get Dingwall defending more at 13 for Saints I think he could take on the Slade role as the glue in the midfield.

Borthwick has taken the team on a hell of a lot this year. If we think where we were at the start of the 6N to now we've got more depth, a top level defence, an attack game that is slowly coming together and we are still reliable at set piece. There's more work to do but we are getting closer and closer to kicking on and being a genuinely top team.

There is indeed a lot to be optimistic about,  there are the bones of a good team in there who can help bring through some of the outstanding young talent that is coming through the U18s and U20s (production line seems to be cranking back into life).  I would dearly love another big hard running centre to come through, Lawrance is a decent option, but injuries happen.  I'd also love a raw meat eating tighthead to come through over the next couple of years.  

Prop and centre are the areas of concern. The emergence of Baxter and some of the others are easing the issues at loosehead but certainly centre and tighthead are the areas Borthwick will no doubt be looking at finding some new younger options over the next year. Dan Kelly refinding his pre injury form would certainly help things a lot in that area.

He must be hoping Sella etc come through rapidly...but that's a big hope.

At centre be interesting how Ollie Hartley recovers from his injury...

I think Baxter deserves a lot of credit.  It's not many players who can break their international cherry against the ABs and do well.  Here's hoping some other young'uns come through.  Though hope ain't a plan.

By the way, I don't think most of the times when the England were pushed back in the scrums was on the front row. It was pretty clear a few times to see the flanks not holding off pressure. Not sure how much would also be on the locks, but the replays weren't looking at them much.

doctor_grey wrote:I think Baxter deserves a lot of credit.  It's not many players who can break their international cherry against the ABs and do well.  Here's hoping some other young'uns come through.  Though hope ain't a plan.
.  

I honestly think in a year or two Loosehead will be a great strength for England....Baxter blooded now, Iyogun had a trip to NZ, Brantingham will develop even better at Saracens and Haffar looks a hell of a prospect. Marler might be around for another year and if not Genge will be the old head at what 28/29?

Tight head is the problem ...Dan is on his final lap with England,  Stuart just doesn't inspire and there's very little in the Prem to get excited about. I'm a big fan of Trev Davison but he would be another average international stop gap.  Hayes isn't inspiring and the ones with hope are kids.