Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[JAS]

First topic message reminder :

Anyone fancy taking a sweep on when Labour are going to say "we've looked at the books, and it's worse than we thought, so we have to raise taxes"

Well...if Starmer hasn't done it by Friday 6:00pm it'll have to wait until next week :-p

[Duty281]

I'm impressed that your recollection is both so selective and so wrong. Perhaps I should invite a few others from the 'Off Topic' section to comment here on your disengagement/lack of response when you're outwitted? Let's leave it at that.

No....? The bits in bold are what I think I'll be met with if I provide any detailed counter to your earlier post, as well as the usual attacks. I don't understand why you need others from the off topic section to substantiate your claim?

Spoiler:

[McLaren]

Duty

The point being that given how weak I find the scientific evidence, I had hoped there was more to the case against her. There has been some reporting about notes she wrote to herself, which are almost meaningless when it comes to deciding guilt, and so I would like to know what the good evidence against her was? Because it wasn't the scientific evidence.

Realistically, how can I find that if it's not being reported in the media. It would seem my best bet of finding that out is from someone like yourself who followed the case. Would you mind setting out some of the other evidence for me? And I don't mean links to something. Just a brief summary of what your understanding of the best evidence against her was?

On your understanding of the scientific evidence, I am just curious how compelling you found it? Did you also notice it wasn't of the highest quality?

[JAS]

Duty

You are correct in saying I didn't hear the whole trial but what I can tell you is that I hope there was a lot of other evidence presented than the scientific and medical stuff. The so called medical expert for the prosecution drew on an incredibly small set of data and what he presented does not really count as science. I told you this at the time, and it now seems the medical and scientific community were equally concerned.

My concern is that I hope this case does not reflect how poorly scientific ideas are used more broadly across the legal system. Whether you think Letby is guilty or not is almost besides the point. As far as I can tell you don't have a scientific background, and I would be interesting to hear what you thought about the scientific evidence presented as you followed the trial?

Sorry, I don't recall you saying any such thing at the time. You just wondered about evidence that wasn't in the public domain, and I said everything had been reported on and posted the links to the trial, and you said you couldn't be bothered to read it. I don't recall you saying exactly why you think she's not guilty at any point.

Not sure what you mean about my thoughts of the scientific evidence? Anything specific?

What kind of scientific evidence would work for you. Sure I’ve seen a spreadsheet with shift rotas for her ward with child deaths superimposed on top. Does it prove anything, no BUT flip it round if she is innocent what are the odds on such a coincidence?
Depends who you are of course and what you see as scientific evidence and to what extent it’s applicable. I mean there’s a guy in America that is stone cold certain that immigrants eat pets because he saw it on TV. City officials in Springfield say they’ve had no reports of such things. Who do you believe? Based on what evidence, scientific or otherwise.

[navyblueshorts]

I'm impressed that your recollection is both so selective and so wrong. Perhaps I should invite a few others from the 'Off Topic' section to comment here on your disengagement/lack of response when you're outwitted? Let's leave it at that.

No....? The bits in bold are what I think I'll be met with if I provide any detailed counter to your earlier post, as well as the usual attacks. I don't understand why you need others from the off topic section to substantiate your claim?

Spoiler:

Forgive me, but there's a difference in disengaging when it's obvious anything one says isn't going to make any difference of opinion in the target of the comments. That's what happens in many conversations, but is very different from someone being unable to answer/rebut a criticism. I'm sure we're boring everyone - let's re-convene if/when there's any substantive change in the case; as JAS commented, as of now, it's a done deal.

Good use of the spoiler tags. Will take that onboard myself in future.

[navyblueshorts]

Duty

You are correct in saying I didn't hear the whole trial but what I can tell you is that I hope there was a lot of other evidence presented than the scientific and medical stuff. The so called medical expert for the prosecution drew on an incredibly small set of data and what he presented does not really count as science. I told you this at the time, and it now seems the medical and scientific community were equally concerned.

My concern is that I hope this case does not reflect how poorly scientific ideas are used more broadly across the legal system. Whether you think Letby is guilty or not is almost besides the point. As far as I can tell you don't have a scientific background, and I would be interesting to hear what you thought about the scientific evidence presented as you followed the trial?

Sorry, I don't recall you saying any such thing at the time. You just wondered about evidence that wasn't in the public domain, and I said everything had been reported on and posted the links to the trial, and you said you couldn't be bothered to read it. I don't recall you saying exactly why you think she's not guilty at any point.

Not sure what you mean about my thoughts of the scientific evidence? Anything specific?

What kind of scientific evidence would work for you. Sure I’ve seen a spreadsheet with shift rotas [where information re. other deaths on the unit when Letby wasn't present was removed] for her ward with child deaths superimposed on top. Does it prove anything, no BUT flip it round if she is innocent what are the odds on such a coincidence?
Depends who you are of course and what you see as scientific evidence and to what extent it’s applicable. I mean there’s a guy in America that is stone cold certain that immigrants eat pets because he saw it on TV.  City officials in Springfield say they’ve had no reports of such things. Who do you believe? Based on what evidence, scientific or otherwise.

Tweaked it a bit. That aside, are you drawing the bull's eye around the arrows? Too many other factors involved for that postulate to be meaningful and each event is presumptively independent unless you're postulating in advance (bias?) that Letby was a malign actor. Essentially, people are saying that the probability of the number of deaths is so small, there must be something malign to explain it. Not necessarily so by probability alone and the emphasis on this alone is wrong. Agree it would have been likely worth considering in addition to other solid evidence, which I assume they'd argue was done.

There's no smoking gun here it would seem, but an accumulation of things that have been put together to imply Letby was guilty. All OK if that was evidence correctly interpreted/presented. Was it? Seems to be an unusual number of experts that are concerned this wasn't the case.

Here's a thought: if you have, say, six poker players around a table and deal them their initial five cards. Calculate the probability that they'll receive exactly the hands that they received. It's astronomically unlikely, and yet those are the hands they received. Nothing untoward happened; just chance. Probability is mind bending (look up the number of people needed in one room to guarantee ≥50% chance two people will share the same birthday) and one of the reasons I think there should be an independent statistical/probability expert at trials when this sort of stuff is heavily leant on.

[I'm never wrong]

look up the number of people needed in one room to guarantee ≥50% chance two people will share the same birthday

Did this at school when we started looking at probability. In a class of around 30, just going through the months soon got a hit So I guess its a pretty low number.

[navyblueshorts]

look up the number of people needed in one room to guarantee ≥50% chance two people will share the same birthday

Did this at school when we started looking at probability. In a class of around 30, just going through the months soon got a hit So I guess its a pretty low number.

Yep; it's 23 [Birthday Paradox].

[Duty281]

https://www.ft.com/content/7e8b47b3-7931-4354-9e8a-47d75d057fff

Wow, Gary Stevenson is a liar! Who could have seen that coming?! Oh, right, yeah, anyone with at least half a brain.

Spoiler:

Still, never mind, subscribe to his Patreon. He needs your money to fight the rich!

[Duty281]

Duty

The point being that given how weak I find the scientific evidence, I had hoped there was more to the case against her. There has been some reporting about notes she wrote to herself, which are almost meaningless when it comes to deciding guilt, and so I would like to know what the good evidence against her was? Because it wasn't the scientific evidence.

Realistically, how can I find that if it's not being reported in the media. It would seem my best bet of finding that out is from someone like yourself who followed the case. Would you mind setting out some of the other evidence for me? And I don't mean links to something. Just a brief summary of what your understanding of the best evidence against her was?

On your understanding of the scientific evidence, I am just curious how compelling you found it? Did you also notice it wasn't of the highest quality?

What exactly about the scientific evidence did you find weak?

I summarised some stuff in an earlier post on evidence of guilt, but the indepth information is at the links below and has been reported in the media:

https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23152082.countess-nurse-lucy-letby-happened-trial/
https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23597625.recap-lucy-letby-trial-monday-june-19---closing-speeches/
https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23600333.recap-lucy-letby-trial-june-20--prosecution-closing-speech/
https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23603440.recap-lucy-letby-trial-june-21--prosecution-closing-speech/
https://www.chesterstandard.co.uk/news/23606159.recap-lucy-letby-trial-june-22--prosecution-closing-speech/

The lower four links contain the prosecution's summing up, which will list all the evidence you need, I think. Failing that, you can use the top link and follow the prosecution's case from the start.

For a very general and light summary, you can use Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_Letby#2023_trial

[Duty281]

Richard Baker KC, representing the families of 12 babies, said that Liverpool Women's Hospital had conducted its own audit into Letby's time there.

He told the inquiry that some babies collapsed due to dislodgement of endotracheal [breathing] tubes.

"This is not something that is happening all the time", he said.

"It is unusual, and you will hear that it occurs generally in less than 1% of shifts."

The audit found that there were recorded incidents of the tubes being dislodged on 40% of the shifts Letby worked at Liverpool Womens' Hospital.

Well this doesn't look good.

[McLaren]

Duty

That is a live blog from a newspaper. What am I supposed to do with that?

I've obviously already read the wiki page.


Not sure if this will help bridge the gap in our positions but here goes. I am not saying she is innocent, I am just wondering if the claim that she is guilty has met a reasonable burden of proof for sending someone to jail for the rest of their life.

For me, the poor quality of the medical and scientific evidence is enough to wonder if I would have chosen not to convict her as I would have had reasonable doubt.

[McLaren]

Richard Baker KC, representing the families of 12 babies, said that Liverpool Women's Hospital had conducted its own audit into Letby's time there.

He told the inquiry that some babies collapsed due to dislodgement of endotracheal [breathing] tubes.

"This is not something that is happening all the time", he said.

"It is unusual, and you will hear that it occurs generally in less than 1% of shifts."

The audit found that there were recorded incidents of the tubes being dislodged on 40% of the shifts Letby worked at Liverpool Womens' Hospital.

Well this doesn't look good.

It doesn't but I will mention reasonable doubt again.

It's a long and difficult road to go from tube displacements were up to 40% and she murdered children.


Did they mention what the numbers were for other shifts at the same hospital over the same time period?

Was any mechanism proposed for why the numbers were up on her shifts?

Did they even try and establish a causal link?

[McLaren]

Would it be weird if I wrote to her? I think my wife would understand it was from an interest in the legal side of things rather than anything else.

[Duty281]

Duty

That is a live blog from a newspaper. What am I supposed to do with that?

I've obviously already read the wiki page.


Not sure if this will help bridge the gap in our positions but here goes. I am not saying she is innocent, I am just wondering if the claim that she is guilty has met a reasonable burden of proof for sending someone to jail for the rest of their life.

For me, the poor quality of the medical and scientific evidence is enough to wonder if I would have chosen not to convict her as I would have had reasonable doubt.

But how can you say there's poor quality medical and scientific evidence when you don't appear to have read the evidence?

The live blog is a contemporary account of the court trial by someone who was there. If you want to know what the prosecution's evidence was, read the blog. It's the best account there is.

[JAS]

https://www.ft.com/content/7e8b47b3-7931-4354-9e8a-47d75d057fff

Wow, Gary Stevenson is a liar! Who could have seen that coming?! Oh, right, yeah, anyone with at least half a brain.

Spoiler:

Still, never mind, subscribe to his Patreon. He needs your money to fight the rich!

Oh here we go, so what if he wasn’t “the most successful trader in the world” having read the book that particular assertion false or otherwise doesn’t negate the central ethos of the narrative.

Given the drawn out nature of his exit from Citi and the general theories being put forward, it’s no surprise people at Citi and in the wider establishment that subscribe to the current economic orthodoxy don’t hesitate to dig up dirt on someone who is advancing views challenging established orthodoxy.

P.S. He’s not “fighting” the rich, what a banal statement. He challenging (quite rightly) the need for such inequality in society and calling out those who wish to perpetuate it

[Duty281]

https://www.ft.com/content/7e8b47b3-7931-4354-9e8a-47d75d057fff

Wow, Gary Stevenson is a liar! Who could have seen that coming?! Oh, right, yeah, anyone with at least half a brain.

Spoiler:

Still, never mind, subscribe to his Patreon. He needs your money to fight the rich!

Oh here we go, so what if he wasn’t “the most successful trader in the world”  having read the book that particular assertion false or otherwise doesn’t negate the central ethos of the narrative.

Given the drawn out nature of his exit from Citi and the general theories being put forward, it’s no surprise people at Citi and in the wider establishment that subscribe to the current economic orthodoxy don’t hesitate to dig up dirt on someone who is advancing views challenging established orthodoxy.

P.S. He’s not “fighting” the rich, what a banal statement. He challenging (quite rightly) the need for such inequality in society and calling out those who wish to perpetuate it

Of course it doesn't negate his argument, but it does show that he's a bullshi**er and liar, which is exactly what I said many months back. I'm not sure that pointing out someone's lies can be classed as digging up dirt.

Presumably you think his lies are wrong and are right to be called out, even though you agree with his central argument?

[JAS]

https://www.ft.com/content/7e8b47b3-7931-4354-9e8a-47d75d057fff

Wow, Gary Stevenson is a liar! Who could have seen that coming?! Oh, right, yeah, anyone with at least half a brain.

Spoiler:

Still, never mind, subscribe to his Patreon. He needs your money to fight the rich!

Oh here we go, so what if he wasn’t “the most successful trader in the world”  having read the book that particular assertion false or otherwise doesn’t negate the central ethos of the narrative.

Given the drawn out nature of his exit from Citi and the general theories being put forward, it’s no surprise people at Citi and in the wider establishment that subscribe to the current economic orthodoxy don’t hesitate to dig up dirt on someone who is advancing views challenging established orthodoxy.

P.S. He’s not “fighting” the rich, what a banal statement. He challenging (quite rightly) the need for such inequality in society and calling out those who wish to perpetuate it

Of course it doesn't negate his argument, but it does show that he's a bullshi**er and liar, which is exactly what I said many months back. I'm not sure that pointing out someone's lies can be classed as digging up dirt.

Presumably you think his lies are wrong and are right to be called out, even though you agree with his central argument?

Yes why do it? He doesn’t have to, the central theme of his argument stand on its own without him falsely amplifying his credentials.

Also some people WILL have the view… well if he lied about his achievements what else is he lying about? Not ideal baggage to carry when you’re trying to discredit orthodox economists.

I didn’t mean you when I was referring to digging up dirt. I was referring to the FT set. The minute the cosy elite get challenged, their default is to mobilise and discredit the source of that challenge. So although yes maybe he has significantly over embellished his work achievements but the very fact such articles are getting published tells me that more than just a few feathers have been ruffled.

[JAS]

As an aside the book caught my imagination because when I first moved south it was to work for a merchant bank (as an I.T. Techie in their Newbury data centre). I did get to go up to the city a few times and got a tour of the trading floor. I loved the buzz of it and had I got any sniff of working on the trading floor I’d have jumped at it.

[super_realist]

Speaking of liars, ahem Two Tier Kier and Rachel Thieves.

[JAS]

Speaking of liars, ahem Two Tier Kier and Rachel Thieves.

You still reading the Reform Ltd weekly news letter and doing cut and pastes from it??

[super_realist]

I didn't think we could get a worse government than the Tories have been, but Starmer has really grasped the baton. What a bunch of useless c***s.

Yes, we know you're really a Tory voter.

They've been in for ~2 months cf. 14 years of Tory disgrace. What, pray, is it that irks you so much about Starmer at this early stage?

They've hardly got off to a good start have they?
Cancelling free speech in University. Nonsense.

Two tier policing, sentencing, court appearances  and only concerned with riots when it involves idiots from the right wing. Compete ignoring of violence at Notting Hill, or hate speech at Pro Palestinian marches. Nonsense.

Ignoring the migrants crisis and thinking that if he doesn't mention it, it just goes away. Zero gangs smashed, no Border Head even appointed. Nonsense. What do you expect, exactly, after two months?

Pretending he didn't know about "black hole" when he mentioned it in April. Nonsense.

Having a go at Tories for a rumour of cutting winter fuel payments and then cutting winter fuel payments for 10m pensioners whilst giving a 15% pay rise to already well paid train drivers. Who cares? Typical right-wing hyperbolae. Some pensioners will lose the allowance. Big deal. Are you suggesting those living it up in Spain, or more than wealthy enough, shouldn't be means tested for it? Good grief.

Caving into unions without any agreement on provision of services (or eradication of Spanish practices) Nonsense.

Shipping out nearly 12bn to foreign countries for their "climate response" No feel for this. Which countries? Do you ever supply a citation for your claims? If these countries are some of those disproportionately affected but tiny contributors, don't you think we should perhaps help out a bit?

Comical Lammy stopping some arms sales to Israel, but continuing arms sales to Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Syria etc. You do realise that these sorts of things can be looked at individually, don't you? Who says arms deals to those latter won't subsequently be addressed? They've been in two months FFS.

Planning to cancel single persons council tax deductions, aka a widow tax on the elderly. Missed this. Means tested, or not? Are you suggesting a wealthy singleton in, for example, an expensive house, shouldn't lose that adjustment? Also, councils still have to supply the same services per house etc, regardless of whether single or multiple occupancy.

Letting people out of prison early and planning to do at it 20% of sentence served. Source please. I've only heard of ≥40% time served. Also, if you give me your source, I'll expect it to be a black/white decision re. ≥20% time served and there not to be any nuance re. the crimes under consideration. Or are you guilty of hiding any sensible and obvious nuance?

Loss of six MPs through suspension already. Big deal. At least Starmer is taking any claims of misbehaviour sensibly. I suppose you prefer the Tory approach of cover up/lie/grift etc?

Increasing taxes. Bless. Of course there was always going to be. Wake up and try stop being an ingénue.

Cancelling ability to create own energy from North Sea by cancelling future exploration licences leading to the loss of 100,000 highly taxed jobs. See global warming.

Plan to put VAT on private school fees for absolutely no financial benefit. Good. They're businesses, not funded by taxes. You pay VAT on such services. Suck it up.

Dreadful approval ratings. WTF does that have to do with anything? What do you expect when all the MSM is right-wing?

No growth plans. Rubbish.

Banning smoking outdoors.This is the only one I'll give you. I think it's a step too far re. civil liberties and there's no evidence of any health impact.

Just saying "nonsense" doesn't make them untrue.

Rather than address them all I'll take a couple and explain why you're wrong.

Starmer is on film stating in April that the Conservatives are leaving a 46bn black hole and disgracefully threatening the removal of winter fuel payments, which according to Labour could lead to the deaths of 4000 old people per year.
Therefore either these figures of deaths are wrong aka a lie, or Labour are content for 4000 people to die of cold.
Secondly a FOI from the FT has asked Labour to qualify their claim of a black hole of 22bn, and they have come back and stated that no further comment will be made until this amount can be verified. Therefore they don't even know if it is true.

Milliband has already stated that he has budgeted nearly 12bn for the climate projects of foreign countries which includes India and Costa Rica, two countries that don't need our help.

The decision to axe North Sea Oil is actually detrimental to the net zero aims of the country as it will still need to be imported at a far more inflated co2 cost.

The claim you keep repeating that the MSM is all "right wing" is a flat out lie, yet you keep repeating it.

BBC, C4, Sky, Guardian, Mirror etc are all MSM, and not right wing, in fact BBC has had to apologise (again) for breaking it's own editorial standards 1500 times on showing bias to Palestine, and it STILL won't call Hamas a terrorist group.

Your claim that we shouldn't tax private school is also flawed. We don't pay tax on say children's clothes or books. Are those selling those not businesses?
Putting vat on private school fees just leads to more strain on the state school system.

A single person doesn't use the same services as a big family in the same size of  house. A single person uses less water (which is included in my council tax in Scotland), needs the bins emptied less frequently etc.

Shall we talk about two tier diplomacy too? Callamity Lammy making a mess of it weapons wise and Ukraine/Israel.

[navyblueshorts]

Richard Baker KC, representing the families of 12 babies, said that Liverpool Women's Hospital had conducted its own audit into Letby's time there.

He told the inquiry that some babies collapsed due to dislodgement of endotracheal [breathing] tubes.

"This is not something that is happening all the time", he said.

"It is unusual, and you will hear that it occurs generally in less than 1% of shifts."

The audit found that there were recorded incidents of the tubes being dislodged on 40% of the shifts Letby worked at Liverpool Womens' Hospital.

Well this doesn't look good.

It says little on its own. It is unusual, but you present this alone as if it's indicative of Letby being the cause of the dislodged ET tubes. She didn't insert them, cut them to size or tape them in place.

[navyblueshorts]

Spoiler:

Just saying "nonsense" doesn't make them untrue.

Rather than address them all I'll take a couple and explain why you're wrong.

Starmer is on film stating in April that the Conservatives are leaving a 46bn black hole and disgracefully threatening the removal of winter fuel payments, which according to Labour could lead to the deaths of 4000 old people per year.
Therefore either these figures of deaths are wrong aka a lie, or Labour are content for 4000 people to die of cold.
Secondly a FOI from the FT has asked Labour to qualify their claim of a black hole of 22bn, and they have come back and stated that no further comment will be made until this amount can be verified. Therefore they don't even know if it is true.

I'll take your word for it re. any so-called black hole in budgets. Re. deaths due to cold and the WFA, the former is overblown, but typically being hawked by the usual media. It looks worse because this is Labour; it's expected of the Tories. Hypocrisy? Probably. Politics? Definitely. For the record, I'm in favour of the WFA change, but think there should be a taper rather than a cliff edge for not receiving it. I do, however, wonder what the Hell is wrong with this country if it's seen as OK to pay a pension credit to some pensioners because the State knows the State pension received isn't enough, while at the same time accepting that those below a certain level can't be left in such poverty in their old age. Seems to me this is an argument for simply giving everyone the full State pension at State retirement age, feckless or hard working, admitting how much that would cost and determining how it should be paid for.

Milliband has already stated that he has budgeted nearly 12bn for the climate projects of foreign countries which includes India and Costa Rica, two countries that don't need our help.

What are the projects that this money is going to? Could they possibly be something we'd benefit from?

The decision to axe North Sea Oil is actually detrimental to the net zero aims of the country as it will still need to be imported at a far more inflated co2 cost.

Maybe, but that's a never ending argument in support of the oil industry and that needs to change.

The claim you keep repeating that the MSM is all "right wing" is a flat out lie, yet you keep repeating it.

BBC, C4, Sky, Guardian, Mirror etc are all MSM, and not right wing, in fact BBC has had to apologise (again) for breaking it's own editorial standards 1500 times on showing bias to Palestine, and it STILL won't call Hamas a terrorist group.

I should have been clearer; I meant the mainstream print media. In that rogue's gallery I give you at least: The Mail, The Express, The Telegraph, The Times, The Sun. This against: The Mirror & The Guardian.

Re. Hamas, you know the answer to that. The BBC states that the UK Government and others designate Hamas as a terrorist group. They're following their own guidance in reporting it in such a fashion.

Your claim that we shouldn't tax private school is also flawed. We don't pay tax on say children's clothes or books. Are those selling those not businesses?
Putting vat on private school fees just leads to more strain on the state school system.

I don't care re. clothes/books cf. private school fees. For me, it's a point of principle and I'm all for it. Happy for you to disagree.

A single person doesn't use the same services as a big family in the same size of  house. A single person uses less water (which is included in my council tax in Scotland), needs the bins emptied less frequently etc.

Yes, but a Council can't support services in the way that you're implying. If your bin needs emptying less, that doesn't affect the fact the bin crews still have to go out and they still need to be paid. Ditto water services - there's no way of distinguishing, in terms of services needing to be supplied, that you use less water than, say, Mr. & Mrs. Smith and their two kids next door.

Shall we talk about two tier diplomacy too? Callamity Lammy making a mess of it weapons wise and Ukraine/Israel.

If you say so, but I guess you know there's always been tiers in diplomacy, yes? Interested in what you think that 'mess' is that he's made, and your inside information that clarifies it's a mess, rather than, say, simply the realities of diplomacy.

[McLaren]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

[Duty281]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

[McLaren]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

Worth burning a migrant hotel down for?

[navyblueshorts]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

[navyblueshorts]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Maybe, but given the guy that supplied them got 12(?) months suspended.was never going to be as severe. In-line with guidance. Career's ruined, so arguably little more needed?

[Duty281]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

Yeah, I am quite nasty to child abusers/people who get off on children being abused.

[McLaren]

BBC News - Diane Abbott: Starmer treated me as a 'non-person'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c05gg2v5p98o

Super, how do you feel about this?

[Soul Requiem]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

You're right, much better to defend child killers.

[super_realist]

BBC News - Diane Abbott: Starmer treated me as a 'non-person'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c05gg2v5p98o

Super, how do you feel about this?

Couldn't care less Mac. If a Tory had sent the disgusting racist letter that Flabbot did you'd be all over them and asking for them to resign.
One of the very few things Two Tier Kier has done right was get rid of Corbyn, Williamson and Fat Abbot, although he made an error letting her back into the party. Typical from the coward he is unfortunately.

[super_realist]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Very lenient, seems being a nonce is considered far less serious than making a Facebook post or shouting at a Police Horse.

[JAS]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Very lenient, seems being a nonce is considered far less serious than making a Facebook post or shouting at a Police Horse.

Typical Muskish generalisation, there’s a MASSIVE difference between a Facebook post wishing somebody a happy birthday and a facebook post filled with hate and/or inciting a riot.
Incidentally, do you think shouting at a horse is normal?

[McLaren]

Being on the sex offenders register for 7 years is probably going to be the biggest inconvenience for him.

Super

You also get more time for arranging a peaceful protest.

[super_realist]

Being on the sex offenders register for 7 years is probably going to be the biggest inconvenience for him.  

Super

You also get more time for arranging a peaceful protest.

Like what peaceful protest Mac? You're not talking about those lunatics from Extinction Rebellion are you? Those may not have been violent, but holding people to ransom on unscientific claims is not peaceful.

[super_realist]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Very lenient, seems being a nonce is considered far less serious than making a Facebook post or shouting at a Police Horse.

Typical Muskish generalisation, there’s a MASSIVE difference between a Facebook post wishing somebody a happy birthday and a facebook post filled with hate and/or inciting a riot.
Incidentally, do you think shouting at a horse is normal?

Shouting at a horse isn't normal, but it shouldn't carry a custodial sentence.
Some of the sentences, (two tier of course from Kier) were frankly laughable for such trivial things. People have gone to jail for not paying a TV licence, yet a nonce gets off. The way the BBC reported it was also poor, going on about his "vulnerabilities" which only appeared conveniently when he was caught and useless BBC head Tim Davey saying "I can't see him working at the BBC again" well done Poirot.

How many pro Palestine protestors who have broken the law have been banged up? Notting Hill Carnival criminals, Manchester Airport thugs? Mmm.
Crony Kier isn't exactly getting off to a good start.

[super_realist]

Jas, the evil, right wing MSM Sun, the most widely sold print media in the UK backed Labour in the most recent election.
The Times also backed Labour.
Independent also isn't a right wing newspaper. Therefore, the print media isn't ALL right wing is it? In fact it's nowhere near it.

Who reads newspapers anyway? Can't remember the last time I bought one.

[superflyweight]

I see this board has acquired a few experts on judicial sentencing guidelines and the role of a very recently elected government in setting those guidelines.

Top notch and informed conversation, chaps. Keep it up.

[McLaren]

I see this board has acquired a few experts on judicial sentencing guidelines and the role of a very recently elected government in setting those guidelines.

Top notch and informed conversation, chaps. Keep it up.

The sad thing is how easily duped the sentencing judge was by his claims of mental distress and that he couldn't remember having looked at the images. What condition in the DSM V lists looking up child porn as a symptom?

Can someone with a legal background explain how you can plead guilty to something you claim to have no memory of happening?

You have to wonder if his pathetic mental health bullshit and claims of not remembering really count as having taken responsibility for what he did? In this context I can see why people are frustrated with the sentence he got. I wouldn't support Duty style punishment, I'm on record of saying practically no one should go to jail, but the courts could at least have required him to take more responsibility for his crimes before getting the more lenient end of sentencing scale.

[McLaren]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Very lenient, seems being a nonce is considered far less serious than making a Facebook post or shouting at a Police Horse.

Typical Muskish generalisation, there’s a MASSIVE difference between a Facebook post wishing somebody a happy birthday and a facebook post filled with hate and/or inciting a riot.
Incidentally, do you think shouting at a horse is normal?

Shouting at a horse isn't normal, but it shouldn't carry a custodial sentence.
Some of the sentences, (two tier of course from Kier) were frankly laughable for such trivial things. People have gone to jail for not paying a TV licence, yet a nonce gets off. The way the BBC reported it was also poor, going on about his "vulnerabilities" which only appeared conveniently when he was caught and useless BBC head Tim Davey saying "I can't see him working at the BBC again" well done Poirot.

How many pro Palestine protestors who have broken the law have been banged up? Notting Hill Carnival criminals, Manchester Airport thugs?  Mmm.
Crony Kier isn't exactly getting off to a good start.

And remember Hillary Clinton runs a pedophile ring.

[JAS]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Very lenient, seems being a nonce is considered far less serious than making a Facebook post or shouting at a Police Horse.

Typical Muskish generalisation, there’s a MASSIVE difference between a Facebook post wishing somebody a happy birthday and a facebook post filled with hate and/or inciting a riot.
Incidentally, do you think shouting at a horse is normal?

Shouting at a horse isn't normal, but it shouldn't carry a custodial sentence.
Some of the sentences, (two tier of course from Kier) were frankly laughable for such trivial things. People have gone to jail for not paying a TV licence, yet a nonce gets off. The way the BBC reported it was also poor, going on about his "vulnerabilities" which only appeared conveniently when he was caught and useless BBC head Tim Davey saying "I can't see him working at the BBC again" well done Poirot.

How many pro Palestine protestors who have broken the law have been banged up? Notting Hill Carnival criminals, Manchester Airport thugs?  Mmm.
Crony Kier isn't exactly getting off to a good start.

And remember Hillary Clinton runs a pedophile ring.

Super, Starting from the middle of a swamp does make it harder to get any early traction but even I would agree that he’s made a bad start by picking the “wrong” target in pensioners, he should have gone for the Super rich to fill the immediate black hole.

Mac, not rebutting your claim but with allegations like that it’s probably useful to also supply credible evidence to validate the assertion

[navyblueshorts]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

Yeah, I am quite nasty to child abusers/people who get off on children being abused.

Must be nice in your black & white world.

[navyblueshorts]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

You're right, much better to defend child killers.

??

If you're referring to my comments re. Letby, jog on. I'm not defending anyone and I didn't raise initial concerns over evidence. Still, nice that your prejudices rule your head.

[navyblueshorts]

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2024/sep/16/huw-edwards-in-court-after-admitting-accessing-indecent-images-of-children

Seems lenient.

Very lenient, seems being a nonce is considered far less serious than making a Facebook post or shouting at a Police Horse.

I do agree with this, but presumably the relevant judges in each of these cases was applying sentencing policy as laid out in law?

[navyblueshorts]

...Incidentally, do you think shouting at a horse is normal?

Normal? No. Stupid? Yes. I guess there might be a nod paid here to the fact that doing so might be dangerous to other members of the public and/or the police officer on the horse.

[navyblueshorts]

Jas, the evil, right wing MSM Sun, the most widely sold print media in the UK backed Labour in the most recent election.
The Times also backed Labour.
Independent also isn't a right wing newspaper. Therefore, the print media isn't ALL right wing is it? In fact it's nowhere near it.

Who reads newspapers anyway? Can't remember the last time I bought one.

The Sun didn't back Labour; Murdoch did, because he could see Labour winning and needs to keep doing his thing. Ditto The Times because guess what? It's owned by Murdoch. He's backing the winner; nothing to do with/ his own politics or political beliefs.

[navyblueshorts]

I see this board has acquired a few experts on judicial sentencing guidelines and the role of a very recently elected government in setting those guidelines.

Top notch and informed conversation, chaps. Keep it up.

The sad thing is how easily duped the sentencing judge was by his claims of mental distress and that he couldn't remember having looked at the images. What condition in the DSM V lists looking up child porn as a symptom?

Can someone with a legal background explain how you can plead guilty to something you claim to have no memory of happening?

You have to wonder if his pathetic mental health cowpat and claims of not remembering really count as having taken responsibility for what he did? In this context I can see why people are frustrated with the sentence he got. I wouldn't support Duty style punishment, I'm on record of saying practically no one should go to jail, but the courts could at least have required him to take more responsibility for his crimes before getting the more lenient end of sentencing scale.

You did read the context re. his sentence, didn't you? Good grief.

[Duty281]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

Yeah, I am quite nasty to child abusers/people who get off on children being abused.

Must be nice in your black & white world.

Don't tell me. I should care about the feelings of nonces like Edwards? They should be rehabilitated and brought back into society's tender grasp?

[navyblueshorts]

Seems a standard sentence, unfortunately. Personally, I'd lock those sorts of people up and never release them. They're a clear danger to children.

The court heard from a forensic psychosexual therapist that there was a “tangible risk” of suicide

Fingers crossed.

You're quite a nasty individual when you put your mind to it, aren't you?

Yeah, I am quite nasty to child abusers/people who get off on children being abused.

Must be nice in your black & white world.

Don't tell me. I should care about the feelings of nonces like Edwards? They should be rehabilitated and brought back into society's tender grasp?

Of course. If you believe in justice, as opposed to vengeance. You do, don't you? It's more than just his feelings though, isn't it? You can't begin to admit that what he's been involved with might just have been a little bit to do with his medically confirmed mental health issues at the time this occurred. If you did admit that was part of it, and might be mitigation re. any sentencing, you'd be angry about it because you'd have to admit it to yourself and adopt a less Biblical vengeance-based view of him, wouldn't you? Can't have that. Much easier to be Old Testament vengeful.


Here's a nasty little thought for you (and others) to consider:

Societies make arguable definitions re. the age before which one is considered a legal minor. Human biology means that male and female humans can procreate from 11-12 years of age.

People naturally gain sexual gratification, or lust after, differing ethnicities, body shapes/features, genders.

Accepting everything re. consent in any relationship, is it time societies grew up a bit more and considered that what's currently considered as paedophilia might just perhaps be a part of the normal human condition? If so, how should it be managed in society?

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