England's winter of cricket 2024/25

First topic message reminder :

The squad for the tour of Pakistan has just been announced...Stokes and Crawley are back, with Dan Lawrence dropped. There are also recalls for Rehan Ahmed and Jack Leach, with Brydon Carse getting a tour also.

Full squad (likely XI then others);

Zak Crawley
Ben Duckett
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Harry Brook
Ben Stokes
Jamie Smith (wk)
Gus Atkinson
Olly Stone
Jack Leach
Shoaib Bashir

Reserves:
Jordan Cox
Brydon Carse
Rehan Ahmed
Chris Woakes
Josh Hull
Matthew Potts

Will MacPherson noting they see Tom Hartley as more suited for the true turning wickets of SL/India/Bangladesh, hence his omission. Tests likely to be played at Rawalpindi, Multan, Rawalpindi. (Two Pindi tests...fun).

Extra seamers suggest Stokes might not be fit to bowl?

Brook flowing nicely. Root having a bit of an issue with cramp so might be glad to see the tea break.Still a fair way to go to get up to that Pakistan total so important these two keep going. Pitch looks as if it will likely stay fine for batting a while yet ; but Pakistan do have some form for second innings meltdowns so wouldn't be calling the draw yet whatever this innings ends up with.

GSC wrote:England's issue has been a lack of conversions than a lack of scores. Pakistan had 3 centurions, England are probably going to need their own to match their total

Three centurions, but only one "went on". If Root or someone can go make 150+ then don't really need to match it to get near.

alfie wrote:Sorry , Olly ...hadn't seen you were there before me              He's well and truly jinxed now...

Challenge Jessop at your peril, gentlemen.
Alfie - you really should have known better.

Brook to 50 as he farms the strike with Root sat on 99. Not gonna say hes due this time

Not watched any of the match so far but from the scorecard looks like a typical dire Pakistan pitch?

Yeah there's nothing in this pitch

Naseems been the pick of the bowlers imo

Billy Root getting married so what does big brother do; goes and scores a century while breaking Cook's all time runs record.

The Joe Root century was perhaps the least unexpected event of this match from the time we saw the first over on Monday...cramp and all he's looking as immovable as ever. England have slowed slightly but still motivated five per so will be closing on Pakistan early tomorrow as long as they don't have a meltdown. Going to be overtime tonight despite a bit of spin being bowled as we're only up to fifty for the day.

Unless there's a sudden clatter of England wickets tonight it feels difficult for Pakistan to force a result. Cant imagine they'd be comfortable asking England to chase even 400 in a day on this

Brook more than a touch fortunate there

Approaching the new ball, Pakistan have dragged back the run rate but the new ball tends to fly faster to the boundary.

Have the feeling Pakistan have basically given up any thoughts of winning this and are rather going through the motions and just hoping to keep England's scoring rate under some sort of control. . England on the other hand will surely be thinking they can put a lot of pressure on the hosts in their second knock.Still need to keep the runs coming of course with 150 more for parity....make that 144 , no 143 and Brook to 99..

Brook to 99...

alfie wrote:Have the feeling Pakistan have basically given up any thoughts of winning this and are rather going through the motions  and just hoping to keep England's scoring rate under  some sort of control. . England on the other hand will surely be thinking they can put a lot of pressure on the hosts in their second knock.Still need to keep the runs coming of course with 150 more for parity....make that 144 , no 143 and Brook to 99..

Shakeel turning his arm over rather reinforces that notion.

If England could get another 200-250 they could at least put Pakistan under pressure. But I'd favour just batting as long as possible and keeping the bowlers feet up

Hundred for Brook... he likes batting in Pakistan , does he not ?

Brook had a bit of a habit this summer of getting in then getting himself out. No mercy today though

GSC wrote:

alfie wrote:Have the feeling Pakistan have basically given up any thoughts of winning this and are rather going through the motions  and just hoping to keep England's scoring rate under  some sort of control. . England on the other hand will surely be thinking they can put a lot of pressure on the hosts in their second knock.Still need to keep the runs coming of course with 150 more for parity....make that 144 , no 143 and Brook to 99..

Shakeel turning his arm over rather reinforces that notion.

If England could get another 200-250 they could at least put Pakistan under pressure. But I'd favour just batting as long as possible and keeping the bowlers feet up

Yeah, the only path to an England win I can see is batting once and going absolutely massive. Which is not their normal MO. And is a long long shot anyway!

It's just started to do a bit off the pitch. Not that much yet but something

Spare a thought for poor Jamie Smith, most of two days behind the stumps and now a day sat in pads

Lead under 100. Probably not going to overtake that in 45 minutes

GSC wrote:

alfie wrote:Have the feeling Pakistan have basically given up any thoughts of winning this and are rather going through the motions  and just hoping to keep England's scoring rate under  some sort of control. . England on the other hand will surely be thinking they can put a lot of pressure on the hosts in their second knock.Still need to keep the runs coming of course with 150 more for parity....make that 144 , no 143 and Brook to 99..

Shakeel turning his arm over rather reinforces that notion.

If England could get another 200-250 they could at least put Pakistan under pressure. But I'd favour just batting as long as possible and keeping the bowlers feet up

There is that but the amount of running that Root and Brook have done will have them aching too. Root has 118 run runs and Brook 75.

Root saved by umpires call just to rub it in

Said they'd probably be within 50 by the close...looking a good bet now. Not so sure making 750 is the only way to win this : possibly a much lower lead but more time might muddle Pakistan's approach to their second innings more than leaving them just having to bat time...third innings can be nervy affairs and Pakistan do tend to get a bit jumpy at times... Going to be hard to get a result either way but not calling this dead yet

Not exactly electrifying watching , this remorseless piling on of runs , but highly effective. Perhaps tomorrow will bring some drama. Spare a though for Pope getting out for a duck on this strip......but at least he's able to watch from a comfortable balcony and keep cooler than these two 66 behind and just one over left...

Obviously great day for England, 396 runs added for only the loss of Crawley and Duckett.
Good knock from Duckett, but obviously the stars of the show Root and Brook again. A joy to watch them bat at times today, and then I think really good and hard work in this evening session when both clearly struggling with cramp, to continue pushing singles and twos to keep the run rate up and grinding Pakistan down.

Maybe more importantly an entire day of feet up for the bowlers and Smith!

Like to see England really try and take the game to Pakistan tomorrow morning - as others have said, their third innings record recently is abysmal, lets put them in a position where they aren't sure whether to stick or twist and really test that confidence of them. Pitch might not allow for a result, in fact likely won't...but if we can get a lead of 100 or so, I'd stick em in and see how they fare...

Hopefully the pitch breaks up and there's a bit more entertainment for the last two days. Been a professional job by both teams for the most parts but conditions have dominated.

If England can get another 200 odd then the way Pakistan went through the motions after tea suggests there's still a chance

396/2 in 81 overs. The over rate died a little, but expected in that heat, with both teams needing regular refreshment.

I thought Naseem and Aamer bowled well in unforgiving conditions. Naseem nearly got Root's edge twice. Shaheen was mostly ineffectual, and the spin element was a comic irrelevance, except for the amount of runs it has allowed England to pile up - 233/0 from 44 overs!

Abrar Ahmed's figures of 35-0-174-0 are currently the 15th worst in test history. The worst ever test figures in an innings were by Khan Mohammed, also of Pakistan, who sent down 54-5-259-0 in a test in 1958 v the West Indies, who scored 790/3 declared, with Sobers making his then world record 365*. Will Mohammed be beaten tomorrow?

https://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/stats/index.html?class=1;filter=advanced;orderby=conceded;qualmax1=0;qualmin1=0;qualval1=wickets;template=results;type=bowling;view=innings

Superb application from Brook and Root. Both were starved of boundaries for spells, but neither tried to force anything rash and were just happy to accumulate and take the runs. Very well done to Brook on that front, because his lack of application was a theme through the summer, where he threw away many promising positions. Here though he's pushed on to a big'un. Also, Root has been out in the middle for all bar eight balls in this test! Phenomenal.

Root got another record today, cementing himself as England's greatest ever batsman. One England record he doesn't have is most test double centuries - Hammond has England's most with seven, Root's on five. But a strong chance tomorrow to move to six.  Brook, a little further back, doesn't yet have a double ton in test or FC cricket, but he might reach that tomorrow.

Trailing by 64. Should be a lead of around 50-60 at lunch tomorrow, and, if England don't collapse, the lead should be near 200 at tea. I think England's plan should be to declare around tea with that lead and try to force a result, by bowling Pakistan out in around 90 overs, which would leave a chase of around 100 with a session remaining. Session times might be different on the Friday, which could bring the prospect of bad light into play, but I'm not entirely sure.

No sign of pitch deterioration, but it might still happen, and England will be rejuvenated and energised in the field, and are likely to extract more from the wicket than Pakistan. And Pakistan, in this scenario, will be a weary, demoralised, fed up team, in another no win situation.

It should be a draw at worst from here for England and, at best, another win in the subcontinent. Wouldn't that be marvellous?

The old adage about not knowing the state of a match until both teams have batted borne out today. Suddenly 556 is not looking a great score

Root, starting with the 4th Test v India earlier this year has been in imperious form. It seemed he was a bit phased by Bazball to start with. Now he realises that he has such a good all-round game that he can bat normally and still score at a good lick while leaving the ultra-high scoring rates to the others.

It's a rubbish pitch and Abrar has bowled worse than I expected but you can only play what's in front of you. Root and Brook have put England in a position where they can at least aim to bat once, then try to force a result on D5. I'd expect them to try to bat largely as they did today until lunch. Brook might naturally step on it a bit in the morning given he has the power to find boundaries even with a spread field. Then I expect the remaining batters to really launch into an assault in the afternoon to get as big a lead as possible against a tired attack.

Root has been on the pitch for all but about 10 minutes of the last three days. Insane fitness and concentration given the heat. There's increasingly little argument against him being England's best batter of the covered pitch era. If you're going all the way back to the start, then there's a discussion around Jack Hobbs being one of the next best ever after Bradman. Comparing across the uncovered to covered eras is even more difficult than comparing more recent decades to each other though!

England doing a great job of showing up this pitch for that absolute garbage it is. Great scores for Joe Root and Harry Brook. Would have been even better had Crawley or Duckett had some more time batting on this. The only way such murderous pitches for test cricket can be dealt with it to really, really show them up. England needn't unnecessarily try and force the issue, bat positively without going all out for the first session, get that lead close to 50 for not more than 1 or 2 down, then try and bat through the day to take that pass 250. I know we are talking about scores in the region of 800, but the only way England aren't reaching there, is if they unnecessarily force the issue and ending up losing quick wickets. Unless the pitch can show remote signs of life by the 2nd session tomorrow, England should just keep batting on, as long as they can and don't waste their bowlers on this graveyard!
Please, give me an absolute greentop or a spinning bunsen every day of every month of every year over this travesty!
I absolutely lose it when commentators and others refer to such pitches as benign!!! Will be interesting to see the ratings for this at the end of the game. Anything less than substandard will be atrocious

As KCarlos says above, comparing players, and eras, is mighty tricky.

What perhaps CAN be said is that Root is not only one of the finest batsman/batter/batperson for England but arguably THE finest player of spin. There's no-one under around 99 or 100 who could have seen Jack Hobbs play but by all accounts he was a master of spin and had to contend with the tweakers on uncovered wickets.

But pad play was much in evidence then and was later used by May and Cowdrey to nullify Ramadhin. Now, under the LBW rules, padding up to balls outside the off stump can get you out.

Crowds at some of the dreadfully boring Tests of the 1950s and 1960s watching the likes of Lock, Laker, Tayfield, Nadkarni (didn't he bowl 16 successive maidens for Pete's Sake) et al would have been thrilled to see Root and company using sweeps, reverse sweeps and scoops to break up the spinners' hold.

Root's greatness lies not just in his prowess against slow bowling but also in his ability to score all round the wicket. He must be a nightmare to bowl to.

Pak needed to get Root out under 100 because he is the glue that prevents a collapse.
Hence at the end of Day 3 Eng has surged ahead in the game.
Pitch is docile alright but the captaincy was listless and bowling purposeless.

Jamal got reverse and was the only one who showed intent & hostility while Afridi and Naseem went thru motions.
Spinners were bowling to Captain's plan which was " No plan" aimlessly bowl outside legs.

Eng Will press hard tomm and have worked themselves to a platform from which an innings win is also a possibility.

msp83 wrote:England doing a great job of showing up this pitch for that absolute garbage it is.

The pitch ain't a feathered on Day-3 as the score makes it appear.
There is reverse for which bowlers need to bend their back and keep hitting the deck hard on good length 20 deliveries in a row.
Spinners need to slow down and flight just a bit on length spot and in line with stumps and they would get grip & purchase.
And then wickets would come.

Just listless captaincy and aimless bowling.
Pakistanis do not know how to create wickets in test environment.

I bet Eng will bowl Pak under 300 in the 2nd inning and that's if they don't choke under pressure for half that total.

That guy Jamal seems to have a big heart indeed. He did indeed do more than turning up. Not the quickest around, but keeps trying, and though Naseem did have a spell that was decent, Jamal was the pick of the bowlers. Wouldn't blame any of the bowlers much though...
England's efforts with the ball on this track, seems all the more impressive as the game progresses.

On the discussion on best batsmen of all times it's either futile or a subjective criteria aught to be there to determine how the 30s and 40s and 50s era would have performed on the rank turners of subcontinent against Murali, Kumble, Saqlain, Bhaj,  Ashwin, Jadeja.

Even those who had some play in India and Pak from 50s thru 70s against quality spin did it on flat docile pitches.
The Rank turners/Bunsens/Krumblers only were invented on a consistent basis in 1990s which saw the rise of Lanka and impregnability of India at home.

Soul Requiem wrote:Billy Root getting married so what does big brother do; goes and scores a century while breaking Cook's all time runs record.

Oh, is he the person marrying Olly Stone?

Obviously a great day for England. Piling on the runs and only losing two wickets. Although still trailing by 64, we have our noses in front. That's on the basis that if one side does lose this Test match, it surely ain't now gonna be us.

There just shouldn't be enough time left after our first dig finishes (whenever that is) for Pakistan to get a decent lead on the board and then bowl us out.

Massive credit to Root and Brook who thoroughly deserved their unbeaten sizeable centuries and never let up.

When Pakistan's innings ended after 149 overs, each of England's six bowlers had an economy rate between exactly 3.00 and 4.00. In contrast, Pakistan's five main bowlers (I'm being kind to them and ignoring the three overs sent down by Ayub and Shakeel) currently average between 4.14 and 6.66. We just never let them settle with commendable (although still slightly frustrating) contributions as well from Crawley and Duckett.

Not sure if this is some sort of record for a full day's play in a Test (Duty, you know or have access??) but there wasn't a single maiden bowled today. There's in fact only been one bowled in the whole of our innings so far. Even on this surface, that's not good enough. Abrar was particularly poor, bowling too short and too much leg side.

Anyway, what I really liked about Root and Brook is that they kept on going and running even when troubled with tiredness and cramp. Unlike Shafique and Masood who both succumbed to similar things in the final session of day 1, our centurions can return in the morning.

As for day 4?
I note some like Olly and Carlos advocate our pulling the plug around lunchtime / leading by a 100 and see if the hosts crumble. I understand the thinking although I wouldn't do that.
A couple of factors.
The first is perhaps too old school and cowardly for the current England era but that approach does run the risk of us having to be out in the field for up to 5 more sessions if Pakistan are able to dig in and see the game out for a draw.
Secondly and more significantly for me, I suspect we'll have more chance of bowling the hosts out a second time if we can get them (more) fatigued and demoralised. It does not always follow that you will get more wickets in more time.
Putting all that in the mix and IF we can continue batting tomorrow, I would look to establish a strong lead and give Pakistan 90 minutes or so to bat before stumps.

That all said, I'm pleased that England have stuck at it and come back so well since such a disheartening position at tea on day 1. Furthermore, there's still a chance of an England win at this stage.

Babar drops an absolute dolly at mid wicket to give Root a reprieve off the disillusioned Naseem - imagine running in all day and your fielder does that. I’d be embarrassed to have dropped it at club level

It just gets worse and worse for Babar. Naseem has definitely deserved more than just one wicket for his efforts.

Couple of balls doing a bit early today. Bit of unexpected low bounce happening. Excellent signs for England later.

Actually got 15 overs in that first hour! England 75/0 in that timeframe and into the lead.

A little bit for Naseem and Shaheen early, but they were hauled off after three overs, with Salman getting the ball ahead of Abrar.

Brook 174 and Root 217. Pakistan going back to Shaheen.

Going to be kind and say this is a bit Poopie

Duty281 wrote:It just gets worse and worse for Babar. Naseem has definitely deserved more than just one wicket for his efforts.

Couple of balls doing a bit early today. Bit of unexpected low bounce happening. Excellent signs for England later.

There’s definitely a bit of turn for the spinners too - obviously still great batting conditions, but might be enough in the pitch if Pakistani batters are feeling generous too.

Root motoring along this morning, you’d have thought Brook would get the majority of runs. He edges near his 250, Brook approaching 200

Believe this is now the first time England have had two bats 200* or more at the crease at the same time in test cricket

200 for Brook.

First one for him in tests. The air went out of Pakistan when Babar dropped that catch. They're basically just waiting for the declaration now. Abrar has been hidden away all morning

The lead on course to be beyond 200 by tea, which is when I would declare. See if a refreshed bowling attack can spark some panic.

Until then, stat padding. England haven't scored 711+ in a test since before WW2. Highest England partnership is 411, this one's 385.

Root gets to 250! How about that triple then?

Joe Root becomes the first-ever visiting player with a Test double century in India, Sri Lanka and Pakistan.

218 at Chennai
228 at Galle
248* at Multan (so far)

No one else even if we include UAE matches as Pakistan's home.
#ENGvPAK

At this point could be a lot more than that

166/0 in that session! I think there were only 13 boundaries, which means a lot of running between the wickets was done!

Lead of 102, which was well in excess of what I thought would happen. Lead might be 240 or so by tea, if England bat that far. Might give England a little extra, maybe 100 overs or so, to bowl Pakistan out if they declare at that point.

I hear Abrar was ill this morning and that's why he couldn't bowl. I'd be ill with those figures!

Probably let loose after lunch, punch it around 300 and shove Pakistan in for an hour tonight. Give it a session and a half or so and if nothing really happening we can see Duckett and Crawley bowling in tandem tomorrow

Relying on Pakistan to beat themselves really. It's harder to bat on but it's really nowhere near a likely collapse pitch still

Yes, and something like that did happen to Pakistan recently. When they played Bangladesh, in Rawalpindi, the combined score was 1013/16 after both teams played their first innings.

Pakistan then managed to get bowled out in 56 overs in the third innings, and lost the test, on what was still a very good batting wicket.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Believe this is now the first time England have had two bats 200* or more at the crease at the same time in test cricket

When did they last have two in the same innings? Can't recall it happening since I've been watching