England's winter of cricket 2024/25

First topic message reminder :

The squad for the tour of Pakistan has just been announced...Stokes and Crawley are back, with Dan Lawrence dropped. There are also recalls for Rehan Ahmed and Jack Leach, with Brydon Carse getting a tour also.

Full squad (likely XI then others);

Zak Crawley
Ben Duckett
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Harry Brook
Ben Stokes
Jamie Smith (wk)
Gus Atkinson
Olly Stone
Jack Leach
Shoaib Bashir

Reserves:
Jordan Cox
Brydon Carse
Rehan Ahmed
Chris Woakes
Josh Hull
Matthew Potts

Will MacPherson noting they see Tom Hartley as more suited for the true turning wickets of SL/India/Bangladesh, hence his omission. Tests likely to be played at Rawalpindi, Multan, Rawalpindi. (Two Pindi tests...fun).

Extra seamers suggest Stokes might not be fit to bowl?

96-1 at close - good start from England in reply to the mammoth task ahead of them.
Will need Duckett to be able to bat though you'd think, if we're to have any hope of saving the game or getting near this total. Don't think we're gonna be racking up 500+ with Woakes at 6 and Atkinson at 7!

Be handy if Joe Root can use all those runs he missed out on rather weirdly in the 2022 tour, in this one...

I could see any of Woakes/Atkinson/Carse scoring big on this road.

Amazing batting conditions, but it must be asked as to why Pakistan persist with it? If they got wins through it I could understand. But they never win. They don't draw the crowds in. They just bore everyone for a few days and lose. I don't know what's going off out there.

Duty281 wrote:I could see any of Woakes/Atkinson/Carse scoring big on this road.

Amazing batting conditions, but it must be asked as to why Pakistan persist with it? If they got wins through it I could understand. But they never win. They don't draw the crowds in. They just bore everyone for a few days and lose. I don't know what's going off out there.

It might be that they have little choice, as the pitches / grounds / stadia don't allow them to produce anything significantly different. Interesting stat from TMS that playing in Pakistan is an absolute spinners graveyard - highest average per wicket of any major Test nation. Strange that the perception is that you need two frontline spinners there, but in fact spinners (cumulatively) average over 50 there as opposed to (iirc) 31 in India and Sri Lanka.

One observation from today - Zak Crawley is using a very sweet bat at the moment.

dummy_half wrote:

Duty281 wrote:I could see any of Woakes/Atkinson/Carse scoring big on this road.

Amazing batting conditions, but it must be asked as to why Pakistan persist with it? If they got wins through it I could understand. But they never win. They don't draw the crowds in. They just bore everyone for a few days and lose. I don't know what's going off out there.

It might be that they have little choice, as the pitches / grounds / stadia don't allow them to produce anything significantly different. Interesting stat from TMS that playing in Pakistan is an absolute spinners graveyard - highest average per wicket of any major Test nation. Strange that the perception is that you need two frontline spinners there, but in fact spinners (cumulatively) average over 50 there as opposed to (iirc) 31 in India and Sri Lanka.

One observation from today - Zak Crawley is using a very sweet bat at the moment.

I did look it up and since 2000 in Pakistan in tests:

Pace bowlers have taken 793 wickets @ 36.12; Spinners have taken 579 wickets @ 40.55

In contrast India in the same time frame:

Pace bowlers have taken 1,388 wickets @ 36.34; Spinners have taken 2,172 wickets @ 31.73

Obviously a lot more tests in India! And Sri Lanka:

Pace bowlers have taken 1,433 wickets @ 35.31; Spinners have taken 2,137 wickets @ 31.12

And the UAE:

Pace bowlers have taken 553 wickets @ 32.48; Spinners have taken 645 wickets @ 33.43

Bangladesh:

Pace bowlers have taken 935 wickets @ 32.52; Spinners have taken 1,392 wickets @ 32.35

So there's not been a huge difference in terms of pace bowling in India/Sri Lanka/Pakistan. A few runs lower in UAE and Bangladesh, the latter perhaps explained by Bangladesh's newness to test cricket and propensity for lower scores as a result. Spinners, though, barely a difference in four of those places, just a 2.3 run spread, but in Pakistan it is indeed a graveyard and confounds the stereotype.

A 40.55 average for spinners in Pakistan since 2000 isn't much better than Australia (42.36), and is actually worse than England (37.37) and South Africa (39.55) and the West Indies (35.64) and New Zealand (39.65).

Two spinners really isn't needed for Pakistan, is it? But it would be tough to ask the seamers to take on the spinners' role in the oppressive heat of Pakistan. If, for instance, you took out Bashir for Stone/Potts in this one, you're asking for 32 overs to be found. Now Potts/Stone can get through 23, but that leaves a few more to be shared around the remaining seamers, or Root's part time spin. And that would also require greater seamer depth to get England through the series.

But definitely an eye opener and not something I'd previously considered. Current tally in this test is the quicks leading 6-5. Spinners averaging 68. Quicks averaging 51.

I think it's more the sheer overs that require the spinners in Pakistan as you say, Duty. I wouldn't want to be asking Root to do too much bowling on top of basically 150 overs in the field, then needing his runs.

Looking at those numbers though, there is an argument that England had the better plan last time by having spin bowling all-rounders in Jacks and Livi to fill in those ridiculous number of overs, whilst also extending the batting order. Interesting stuff on the stats though, thanks for looking that up Duty.

It was very nearly a brilliant position for England when they got Pakistan 8 down for well under 500. I think credit needs to be given to Agha for batting well from there though. Also some sympathy to England's bowlers that it coincided with the second ball being nearly 50 overs old and things really dying down. Agha chose his moment well and batted smartly. Fair play.

There's a lot of scoreboard pressure and a few keeping low, but it's still an absolute road. It would take either some incredible bowling or incredibly poor batting to not get up near Pakistan's score on this track. I'd be disappointed if at least 2 of the top 6 can't cash in with big tons tomorrow. The three seamers mostly bowled well in the evening session I felt but Abrar was targeted already and Agha isn't a strong 5th bowler. If they can force the seamers to keep coming back then bowling should only get easier.

As others said earlier, it's really important for not just this Test but also the series to keep the England bowlers resting on the balcony and the Pakistan bowlers/batters struggling in the heat for as long as possible. Judging by the 'crowd' moving around the stadium through the day to chase the shadows even though they're sat down, that heat must be savage!

Well Pak exceeded the par trajectory by a good margin today
Root is the key for Eng

Pak get him below 75 odd and they will get a reasonable lead , I'd say 150+
Root gets a substantial 100 and bats 2 more sessions  and Eng will come within 50 runs of Pak in their first inning

We saw in BD games that on D4/D5 it becomes  a 300 and 250 pitch.
Pak still quite ahead in the game & Eng have to do substantial work to be marginally behind...like be around 500 for 9 by end of tomm.

The best thing for Pakistan today is not that they managed to reach 556, but that they've taken significant time out doing so. That has meant England couldn't have a lot of time in fabulous batting conditions, and that they had to spend all that time in the field, in challenging conditions. England should go in with a conservative Bazball approach tomorrow. Settle for scoring 320 around on the day, for the loss of not more than 4 or 5 at max, ending the day around 420-4/5. Then actually bat into day 4, for half the day at least... If they manage that, they should be able to perhaps take a small lead, that in itself will put Pakistan batting under pressure, and it might yet happen, that this pitch will wake up!!!!! at some point by end of day 4!!!
Boring test match on a boring pitch, but worth following the score at least, for the time being...
PS, how on earth did Oliver Pope miss out on a guaranteed ton on that road? Absolutely unbelievable!

A worldie catch in fairness, he nailed the shot. Whether he needed to go to that second ball debatable I guess

GSC wrote:A worldie catch in fairness, he nailed the shot. Whether he needed to go to that second ball debatable I guess

It indeed was well-taken. I could envisage Root failing in these conditions but not Pope.
What is the news on Duckett? Read above that he isn't going for a scan, have they made it clear as to whether he's ready to bat tomorrow?
Have a feeling England didn't select the best possible squad. Chris Woakes is a poor bowler in non-English conditions, and his batting, though might come off in flat conditions, is also not strong enough to consider him. When Stokes didn't recover in time, they should possibly have gone for Rehan , or should have selected another batter who could have bowled some half-decent spin.

Dislocated apparently, should be available tomorrow

Stone is unlikely to be available for the second test, which makes me wonder why they picked him for this tour? He surely couldn't play this test, because his wedding is on Saturday and this test might not finish until late Friday, and he's unlikely to be around for the second test. So they picked him for just the third test?

That, and Hull's injury with no replacement, leaves England in a tricky spot, as Potts is the only fresh seamer available, with Woakes/Carse/Atkinson all getting through a lot of work in tough conditions already. Second test starts on Tuesday, at the same ground.

It has also been nearly five years since the last triple century in tests, which was Warner v Pakistan in November 2019. I think it's currently the biggest wait for a triple ton since the 16 year wait between Rowe's effort in 1974 and Gooch's in 1990 (which was England's last). Good chance tomorrow?

msp83 wrote:The best thing for Pakistan today is not that they managed to reach 556, but that they've taken significant time out doing so. That has meant England couldn't have a lot of time in fabulous batting conditions, and that they had to spend all that time in the field, in challenging conditions. England should go in with a conservative Bazball approach tomorrow. Settle for scoring 320 around on the day, for the loss of not more than 4 or 5 at max, ending the day around 420-4/5. Then actually bat into day 4, for half the day at least... If they manage that, they should be able to perhaps take a small lead, that in itself will put Pakistan batting under pressure, and it might yet happen, that this pitch will wake up!!!!! at some point by end of day 4!!!
Boring test match on a boring pitch, but worth following the score at least, for the time being...
PS, how on earth did Oliver Pope miss out on a guaranteed ton on that road? Absolutely unbelievable!

Hi msp - we're not far apart there. I was thinking end the day around 450-6/7. I'll actually be content if we can then bat just the first hour of day 4. I'll explain my thinking if we get anywhere close to that; that's not for now as I'm in grave danger of getting far too far ahead of myself and the game.

Just to throw in here that England have done pretty well since Pakistan were 261/1 sometime after tea on day 1. From then, we've taken 9 wickets on close to a road in challenging conditions for (only) 295 and put on 96 for the loss of one wicket with a regular opener absent hurt.
Just a shame about that 261.

Duty281 wrote:Stone is unlikely to be available for the second test, which makes me wonder why they picked him for this tour? He surely couldn't play this test, because his wedding is on Saturday and this test might not finish until late Friday, and he's unlikely to be around for the second test. So they picked him for just the third test?

That, and Hull's injury with no replacement, leaves England in a tricky spot, as Potts is the only fresh seamer available, with Woakes/Carse/Atkinson all getting through a lot of work in tough conditions already. Second test starts on Tuesday, at the same ground.

It has also been nearly five years since the last triple century in tests, which was Warner v Pakistan in November 2019. I think it's currently the biggest wait for a triple ton since the 16 year wait between Rowe's effort in 1974 and Gooch's in 1990 (which was England's last). Good chance tomorrow?

Hi Duty - share your concerns about shattered and missing seamers. I read somewhere that Stone should arrive back in Pakistan on Monday; that's the day before the second test starts but surely not enough time for him to be ready.

However, where did your last para come from? I suspect a cheeky bet. If so, good luck to the England batsman concerned and you!

I presumed that Stone would play T1 and T3 once he'd been selected in the squad. It would have made sense from a rotation perspective too given his injuries. Rest for T2 whilst he's at the wedding. I was surprised when he was left out here. Judging by what journalists are saying on various podcasts, the security is insanely tight. Rightly so, of course. I wonder whether further complications with that meant that it was harder to get Stone to the UK and back again as quickly as first hoped? I've no qualms whatsoever with Stone not moving his wedding. He was well out the Test picture when the date will have been set.

My thinking was that Atkinson, Stone and Carse were likely to play 2 Tests apiece to try to keep the quicker options fresh-ish. Still, I wouldn't mind a fresh Stone coming in for T3 if that's what now fits.

I think a replacement should have been called up though between this, Hull's injury and Stokes seeming unlikely to bowl. Pennington is in the Lions squad for November, so presumably isn't far away. Saqib Mahmood was back and bowling really well at the end of the summer. Even the very talented John Turner as cover.

They're basically one seamer rolling their ankle in the nets away from just having to pick the three seamers left standing.

Duty281 wrote:I could see any of Woakes/Atkinson/Carse scoring big on this road.

Amazing batting conditions, but it must be asked as to why Pakistan persist with it? If they got wins through it I could understand. But they never win. They don't draw the crowds in. They just bore everyone for a few days and lose. I don't know what's going off out there.

Blimey , Duty : sounding very like the reincarnation of Fred Trueman

But I do share your bewilderment at Pakistan's choice for totally dead strips. Granted it is tricky to produce anything exactly lively in the local conditions but you'd think they could produce something a little better than this. Still I guess if England somehow mess up with the bat here they will gladly take it. Seems unlikely on what we've seen so far.

If England can get up around that 550 (which they'd presumably do early day four) then there could indeed be life back in the game. But that is indeed getting ahead of ourselves...

Agree with posters above that England should have had another seamer on reserve duty , given Stone's issues. There is a chap called Robinson who did rather well in Pakistan two years ago

Good old commentators curse...no sooner have the words " no point in pitching it up to Crawley with the ball not moving" left Nasser's mouth than he flicks a well pitched up delivery straight to short mid wicket Bit of a juggling effort but held and England are 113/2 Duckett must be OK as he's immediately collected boundaries both ends and raced to 13 off just 9 balls...

Crawley with a very England dismissal there.

The fear would be England are all out for 390 in about a day. This isn't a pitch you need to go searching for runs on. Duckett and Brook both have a dim dismissal in their locker too

That said Abrar presumably has a lot of work to do today so getting after him early gives Pakistan a problem

150 up after just 9 overs today...Duckett really going after Abrar: has raced to 34 off 28 balls (one shot a bit close to the mid on fielder but mostly have come out of the middle) Naseem fancies he's getting a bit of reverse...we will see. Has been plenty of action already : now 63/1 today from 11 overs

Talk is Stokes was bowling on the outfield yesterday and is ramping up his prep aiming to be ready for T2. Would help mitigate some of the concerns re: seamer workload if he can play and bowl

The little one keeping you busy again this morning , GSC ? Yes always the fear with this England team they might overcook things and be back the field earlier than necessary. I do like the positive approach ; but sometimes wish for a little more nuance in situations like these. Just for the bowlers' sake I'd hope they will bat all day today.

Fifty for Joe...right on drinks. Would have been slightly shocked had he not reached that...hopefully a lot more to follow !

Over 70 added in the first hour. Few heart in mouth moments where they threatened to give it away but still not doing very much. 30 overs in, flat deck, should be as fill your boots as it comes in test cricket

Hint of reverse for Naseem? England didn't really find any

Fair to say Duckett feels ok, 50 up at better than run a ball

Run a ball stand worth 73 now . This is where I get slightly nervous that Duckett will play a loose hook and get out despite being totally on top...but safely to fifty now anyway in a valuable innings easing fears about his injured digit.

Pope esque review there from Pakistan.

Salman not faring much better in relief of Abrar

This looks tight... ah , moved too much so Root is safe and Pakistan have lost two reviews. Anything Pope can do...

Shan directly ignored his keeper on both reviews and Rizwan correct on both occasions - two reviews down for Pakistan now

In fairness that one did look worth a shout - I thought it would be umpcall at worst. Shows how unwise it was ro waste the earlier one. Fanfare : Root passes Cook !

5th all time too, 2nd well within range

So will be 25 overs for the session and at least 130 added.Good work from England and at this rate the follow on will be off the table before tea and they won't be much more than fifty behind by close of play...

GSC wrote:5th all time too, 2nd well within range

As is first!

Successful morning, just the loss of Crawley navigated for near enough 140 runs. Still over 300 runs behind though so some more piling up needed. Duckett due a conversion too

Duckett needs 20 runs off his next 9 balls to knock noted fraud Gilbert Jessop, off his dubious perch of fastest ever century for England.

Also worth noting that this was Root's 99th Test score of 50 or more which means he's level with Dravid with only Tendulkar (119), Ponting and Kallis (both on 103) ahead of him.
Also good to point out that the others at the top played in mainly successful teams. Some of Root's finest batting came during his spell as captain when the rest of the batting was rubbish.

Now : can Duckett pass Jessop ? On 80 from 68 so needs boundaries...

Sorry , Olly ...hadn't seen you were there before me He's well and truly jinxed now...

GSC wrote:Successful morning, just the loss of Crawley navigated for near enough 140 runs. Still over 300 runs behind though so some more piling up needed. Duckett due a conversion too

Oops

Kinda hoping someone finally beats the fastest 100 so it stops coming up 4 times a summer

Of course he's out about 10 mins later, though the record wasn't looking on. Still a lot of batting to do to even get near to that huge score. Pakistan will be thinking 400ao is achievable, which would be a massive lead

England's issue has been a lack of conversions than a lack of scores. Pakistan had 3 centurions, England are probably going to need their own to match their total

Rats ! I knew we'd jinxed him... He had slowed down anyway (which arguably doesn't suit him ?) but pinned by that one from Jamal - who I reckon has bowled pretty well.249/3 and that England Fastest Hundred record will stay with Jessop (or Bairstow if you don't believe the Jessop story) Still a decent platform for Harry Brook to come in ; but Pakistan will be encouraged by the break and the slight slowdown in scoring...

Amair bowls skiddy fast arm action reminiscent of Craig White and Winston Benjamin...yard slower but still nippy at 133-136kph

He is getting the ball to tail in a bit...reverse.

Abrar's length is too full & is too fast...needs to flight a bit and slow it down and will get more purchase.
If Pak prise out Root for a 100 or even a little over, they are in for a decent lead

I don't believe the Jessop record tbh. Which is my reason for wanting someone to beat it, so there's a clear record holder that can't be argued against

Nailed it there , GSC ...they do need someone - or two - to go big. Can still get there if the next three bats all get 80 odd , I guess ; but that's asking a lot. Would want these two or Smith to ton up at least. New ball a way off yet so this should be a time to make hay...

Brook off to a quick start. Maybe this pitch crumbles a bit but I'm struggling to see how you're gonna take 10 wickets for not a lot on this pitch. Pakistan probably need to be batting pretty early tomorrow to give themselves a decent amount of time at England

England pass the halfway mark to the Pakistan total...

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Shan directly ignored his keeper on both reviews and Rizwan correct on both occasions - two reviews down for Pakistan now

Hi Olly - As we've both banged on about before, the importance of the keeper for reviews - and, of course, him being listened to.