England's winter of cricket 2024/25

First topic message reminder :

The squad for the tour of Pakistan has just been announced...Stokes and Crawley are back, with Dan Lawrence dropped. There are also recalls for Rehan Ahmed and Jack Leach, with Brydon Carse getting a tour also.

Full squad (likely XI then others);

Zak Crawley
Ben Duckett
Ollie Pope
Joe Root
Harry Brook
Ben Stokes
Jamie Smith (wk)
Gus Atkinson
Olly Stone
Jack Leach
Shoaib Bashir

Reserves:
Jordan Cox
Brydon Carse
Rehan Ahmed
Chris Woakes
Josh Hull
Matthew Potts

Will MacPherson noting they see Tom Hartley as more suited for the true turning wickets of SL/India/Bangladesh, hence his omission. Tests likely to be played at Rawalpindi, Multan, Rawalpindi. (Two Pindi tests...fun).

Extra seamers suggest Stokes might not be fit to bowl?

Salman now punishing England with swift runs. Should have been out before tea, England made to pay for their basic fielding errors.

Lead over 250.

Those three quick wickets gave England a lift but Salman is making them pay double for those dropped catches. You'd think this lead is a winning g one , though England will still believe. Looks as if that 75 run first innings difference is going to prove too great an advantage to combat...it seems to have been enough to keep Pakistan nerves under control.

Agha is a very decent bat to have coming in at 7 and he's once again scoring very useful runs here. Exactly the right approach since they've been 8 down too. He's chanced his arms more and scored quickly to take this from a very difficult 230-240ish chase to what will be an extremely unlikely 280+ chase now.

Salman with a fifty, the only one of the innings. Might just be the extra nudge Pakistan need for the win. He's had a tremendous series with the bat....but all this wouldn't have happened if Smith hadn't dropped the easiest of chances.

England would and should be batting now.

GSC wrote:Seen the first call for England to bring back Foakes. The world is healing

I can get on board with Foakes at 3 with the gloves and keep Smith at 7 with the bat.

Bashir chucks another down the leg side..more byes, 200 up lead 274

The highest partnership of the match since Duckett and Root now. This effort from Agha should push it beyond doubt.

That drop by Smith was so bad, he pretty much deserves dropping for it.

*sarcasm

Blaming this entirely on JDizzle for saying Sajid Khan was rubbish, and he's turned into the best player on earth in the last 24 hours

Don't understand how Bashir hasn't gone for that catch? Bowlers running in fielders letting side down.

Penny for stokes thoughts at the moment he must be fuming internally all going wrong here for england

300 lead approaching Shows the pitch isn't totally impossible to bat on ; but the odd one is going to seriously misbehave. Already looks an extremely unlikely target. Would need a magical innings or two... and still need two wickets...Bashir really should have made a better effort to catch that one and all looking a bit ragged now...

Poor again from Bashir in the field.

England just look a bit tired and out of ideas. Starting to wonder if they'll even be batting tonight.

Injured carse back into the attack lead nearly 300 huge problems for England

At last, but way too late.

At last. Carse deserved that. But Salman has done his job , brilliantly, after some early good fortune

All done . Potts finishes it with a deserved wicket. At least they don't - quite - need 300. But it really could have been about 230- 240. Which would probably also be too many but who knows ? Hope England can make a serious effort ...but not off to the betting shop

297 to get. About 40 minutes left tonight.

A hugely frustrating innings for England in the field. Smith's drop, and Root's, is the difference between chasing around 200 and chasing around 300.

To get this will be a huge task, but not impossible. Crawley and Duckett should just attack as normal, there's not much to be gained from them poking around. It'll need to be one of Root, Brook, or maybe even Smith, who has to go long in the chase and get the three figure score needed. Anything that Pope or Stokes gets is a bonus, as it's difficult to expect much from them on this.

The pitch isn't an absolute minefield, but it's certainly taking plenty of turn, and Sajid really nailed the full length backed up with his curious action in the first innings. About 80-20 in Pakistan's favour, but they're not a team used to winning test matches.

Hopefully Crawley and Duckett get off to a flyer and are 45/0 at stumps.

I've been impressed by both Potts and Carse in this test - done good work as seamers. Potts is an interesting one, he reminds a touch of Bresnan's bowling in the way he bustles in and hits the wicket (albeit nowhere near what peak Bresnan was)

Eng need nearly 300.
Seamers took 3 wkts but I think Eng erred in removing spinners and rotating bowlers.
They should have just bowled 2 spinners unchanged .

I believe that's what we will see from Pak.....2 spinners from the start and leggie for change only if there is a partnership of 50+

I see no chance for Eng...but have learnt to never-say-never & nothing-is-impossible.

so lets make it 95%-5%

So England needing just less than 300 to take the game. With the way the pitch is playing and that some of our batsmen are not as good at least starting against spin as they are against pace (Crawley, Pope, Stokes).

To have any chance, we need one of the batsmen to put up a big century, which would be a monumental effort on this pitch. To be honest, the only player I can see with the skill and capability would be Root.

To be honest kpf that's not really how it played out, the spinners weren't looking hugely likely and Stokes brought both seamers back and some effort brought reward. Pakistan may get more and England less from the spin department in this innings though

England may well reflect this was a bad toss to lose. But this total would be a lot more manageable if the fielding was up to par. Bowlers may feel somewhat disgruntled their efforts running in put to waste

No flyer for Duckett.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I've been impressed by both Potts and Carse in this test - done good work as seamers. Potts is an interesting one, he reminds a touch of Bresnan's bowling in the way he bustles in and hits the wicket (albeit nowhere near what peak Bresnan was)

Potts seems to have improved to the lefties massively in the past couple of years. When he debuted against New Zealand and then played India he looked really good to the right handers but really poor to the left handers.

Duck for Duckett, Sajid again. For all the noise about the selections, some of the replacements have delivered big efforts

There is a bit of Merv Hughes in Sajid with a Roganjosh flavor

Soul Requiem wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I've been impressed by both Potts and Carse in this test - done good work as seamers. Potts is an interesting one, he reminds a touch of Bresnan's bowling in the way he bustles in and hits the wicket (albeit nowhere near what peak Bresnan was)

Potts seems to have improved to the lefties massively in the past couple of years. When he debuted against New Zealand and then played India he looked really good to the right handers but really poor to the left handers.

Yep and seems to have put on a little bit of extra pace (he's not quick by any means though). And his batting by all accounts has come on a lot.
Did well on the Lions tour last winter, off to a good start on this winter tour. Definitely can see himself earning a spot on the plane to Aus next year.

That's a very tame and early exit for Duckett. England's chances sinking ever lower. But in truth they have pride and reputation to play for here as well as the contest : after the contrast of that first innings collapse with the 800 on last week's feathered , they need to prove they aren't just a bunch of flat track bullies . Would be a good time for Pope to play one of the innings he produces whenever the bloodhounds are circling

Pakistan have got the ball to talk in the evening session again

Noman ali was bolwing too full and the first one he landed on a length spun & long Crawley looked quite ungainly in that dismissal

Crawley out, too. This one's almost done.

It will be an absolutely terrible defeat for England, if we're honest.

But it might also be Pakistan turning a corner towards actual result pitches on a regular basis.

The biggest concern for PCB and their various committees tonight will be "how to turn T3 pitch in Rawlpindi into a ranknturner"?

Shave grass, don't water and dig it up a bit with some kind of ploughs.
But beware Eng might too win the toss and bat first

11/2. Ominous. Could be a bit embarrassing. KP_fan with the 95% Pakistan WINVIZ looking good...though to be quite honest I had Pakistan at about 85% overnight so not too surprised at how things have played out. 20 minutes for these two to survive to stumps...Wonder who the Nighthawk is...

Mmm Pakistan's gambit of creating this pitch and stacking the team with spin options has worked but probably quite reliant on winning the toss again.

In the same way I don't think England were brilliant in the first test, they haven't been abysmal here

Well done those two in getting to the close...mustn't just roll over , with a potential third match series decider to come. Losing the two fast scoring openers was a blow and I don't think another 261 is feasible., but want to see a fight...

The toss definitely gave Pakistan an advantage, but England were in a winning position at 211/2, and would have been in a good position if either Smith or Root had taken very simple chances today. England have just not been good enough, and Sajid was too good in the first innings.

But, England still have a faint hope to rectify past mistakes. While there's Root, there's hope. He still hasn't got a fourth innings century overseas, the 95 in the one run defeat to NZ the closest, and there's no better time to do it than tomorrow.

England need to remain positive. Pakistan are not used to winning test matches, and they could fall apart mentally if England put them on the back foot tomorrow.

And, yes, Pakistan must try and prepare a similar pitch for the third test, whether it's in Rawalpindi (even flatter than Multan usually) or in Multan again.

KP_fan wrote:There is a bit of Merv Hughes in Sajid with a Roganjosh flavor

Up there with my favourite sentences of the year so far.

alfie wrote:Well done those two in getting to the close...mustn't just roll over , with a potential third match series decider to come. Losing the two fast scoring openers was a blow and I don't think another 261 is feasible., but want to see a fight...

Improbable, but not (quite) impossible until Root is out. To be fair though, I reckon getting to within 100 would be a fairly decent effort.

I think other than the drops today, England have played OK for most of this game. The quick fall of wickets yesterday afternoon / evening obviously turned in strongly in Pakistan's favour, but that was when the pitch went from being OK to pretty difficult to bat on, and one of the weaknesses in our batting line up is starting against spin - the toss and Pakistan batting first certainly was a big benefit.

The one hope for England is that it seems that batting against the old ball is much easier than against the new. Probably another 20 overs before it gets easier, but will take some batting to get through the first hour or so tomorrow without being shot out of the game. One wicket would be OK, but more than that would be too much.

Odd that with the whole phalanx of spinners that Pakistan picked, it's really only come down to Sajid and Noman. I reckon it will be a case of retaining oth of them and bringing in another seamer for the last match - ENgland have shown that with the older ball the seamers pose a problem.

It's been a really good Test to watch that has slipped massively in Pakistan's favour with that late effort from Agha and the two quick wickets.

Definitely a good toss to win for Pakistan, especially with their team selection, but they've taken advantage of it too. Sajid Khan has suited the conditions ideally and bowled very well to be fair. Whilst Kamran made a marvellous century on D1. Agha has made plenty of runs in two Tests but he's a really good batter, particularly in home conditions, to be coming in at 7. Pakistan are trading a genuine 5th bowling option for the depth Agha adds to the batting and to his credit he's delivered the lower middle order runs needed from that selection.

I feel England's collapse in the first innings looks poorer on paper due to how much of an outlier than Duckett innings is since the ball started really spitting. He raced England to a position that belied the conditions, then when he went it became clear just how difficult the pitch was becoming. Obviously, I'm not saying that 222-2 to 291ao is a decent effort! It's still a collapse. I don't think 291 is that far off par for the 2nd innings in the situation though. Given how the ball started doing more on D2, anything over 300 would have been a good effort. The difference between the sides first innings feels largely from the toss.

That 65 run 9th wicket partnership was poor though. Two regulation chances dropped in one over. Then Agha goes on to top score in the innings by a distance. The bowlers gave them the chance to be chasing 220ish. Still tough on this pitch but not undoable. To let the chase run away to nearly 300 off the back of fielding errors is incredibly frustrating.

It's going to take something special from a couple of batters to get there now. Most likely that'll need to be Root + 1. Duckett being gone feels especially significant as he's a LHB and such a good player of spin. The only other leftie is Stokes and he doesn't play spin well. Pakistan should be able to just bowl Noman's SLA with a good matchup against England's RHBs. Then Sajid from the other end, who has his tail up and is suiting this pitch very nicely.

Soul Requiem wrote:

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:I've been impressed by both Potts and Carse in this test - done good work as seamers. Potts is an interesting one, he reminds a touch of Bresnan's bowling in the way he bustles in and hits the wicket (albeit nowhere near what peak Bresnan was)

Potts seems to have improved to the lefties massively in the past couple of years. When he debuted against New Zealand and then played India he looked really good to the right handers but really poor to the left handers.

I often think this can be the case for debuting England seamers. They regularly seem uncomfortable coming around the wicket. Perhaps a case that home conditions, the Dukes and their talent simply means they haven't been forced to that much in CC.

Even a bowler as skilled as Robinson looked really uncomfortable with his runup when he came around the wicket to lefties. Potts was the same early doors. It looked like a last resort when the damage was done. As seamers coming around to lefties always was not that long ago. Whereas the stats now bear out that seamers should be doing it a lot more.

Potts looks a far better bowler having added that bit of pace.

I don't think England will win but if the last two years are anything to go by they will BELIEVE they can do it, and that's half the battle.

A 220-240 target would have been very interesting, although you would still think that would be difficult.

Looks like it will be 1-1. All could depend on the toss for the final Test.

At least England did not have as bad a day as India.

I think it is being a bit too kind to England's bats to play down that first innings collapse as almost a natural consequence of good bowling and a suddenly treacherous pitch. Losing 8 for 50 , before the last pair add a handy 30 to make it look a little better is bad in anyone's language. Yes there was spin and some dodgy bounce but it wasn't exactly a minefield , was it ?  We then saw Pakistan conquer their third innings frailties to make well over 200 on the same pitch (admittedly aided by some missed chances , but still) . And while Sajid and Noman bowled well , they aren't Warne and Murali - or even Ashwin and Jadeja...  I don't think you can just blame the toss for the position England are in.

Of course any team can have a bad day (and England may yet shock us with a last day miracle run chase.)  But it is a concern to me when I look over the recent history of this England side. Consider  :

Since Stokes/McCullum took over , they have played 30 Tests . Won 20 , drawn 1 , lost 9.  Four of those losses , all fairly close , have arguably been mainly down to over confidence/poor tactical choices at crucial moments (NZ , Australia x2 , Sri Lanka) ; and only one (SA) in which they were just outplayed from the start. But then the other four - in India - have a lot to do with spin friendly conditions. (And sure , also India's general excellence. But you can see where I am going with this )

If this one ends in a heavy defeat it will make 5/6 in losses from those conditions (with the only victory coming with that extraordinary Pope-inspired comeback against India at the beginning of the tour). I don't think one would really call any of the previous wins in Pakistan particularly influenced by a pitch made to favour spin bowling (?) So that would seem to suggest a problem yet to be solved , despite the success that has been achieved on more "flat" or seam friendly decks.

I may be making too much of this. The Indian losses could indeed be just "opponents too good". And this one an outlier. But I would suggest it does indicate a weakness that other teams may exploit ; as it involves not just the failures of the batsmen but the relative inability of England's spinners to respond in kind. Sample size still a bit low perhaps ? : will watch this second innings with interest - and probably the third Test here as I imagine Pakistan will be scratching the turf already in Rawalpindi

Anyway , apart from the concerns I've expressed above , I am still looking forward to today's play in hopes that England are able to put up a real show - and possibly even produce that miracle. It was a real blow to lose both openers as a quick 60 at the start would have both made the target less daunting and put pressure on the sometimes fragile Pakistan confidence ; so an awful lot of the responsibility rests as usual on Joe Root. You'd think he needs to be the rock around whom the side can build their innings, as he is the one player we know can handle even tricky spinning pitches under pressure.

Obviously would help a lot if Pope can convince himself he is actually batting at The Oval and settle in for the long haul. If the two of them could prepare the ground with a substantial stand (getting the score significantly past 100 , say) then the likes of Brook - who will have learned from the first innings , and observing Pakistan's batting , which of his range of strokes are likely to be advisable ; Stokes who just might be able to overcome his spin issues for some forceful scoring ; and Smith who looked solid enough until he tried to hit out yesterday , could conceivably achieve the unlikely. Would be a hell of an effort ! Unfortunately I would not place much faith in the ability of the tail to contribute much after watching the first innings so it really does come down to the next four wickets. Pakistan certainly huge favourites but as Sir Fred says , England will still believe...